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Marathon |OT| A Shell of its Former Self.

Men_in_Boxes said:
Right, but we must both leave room for our opinions to be wrong. I could be wrong, as could you.

I think the PvP can, and will be improved tremendously if Sony gives the game enough support. No one at Bungie thinks the PvP is in a near perfect spot, I assure you.
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Terrible onboarding, lack of single player features and proper queuing, the design of the game basically locking out new players until the next season, unintuitive UI etc.

Those are the things they need to focus on.

Some balance changes obviously but thats par for the course.
 
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8BiTw0LF said:
I can tell you, nothing is more fun and rewarding in taking a full team down by yourself.

Here's what I do 90% of the times I'm up against a full team. I retreat, making noise, so they'll hunt - I walk backwards through doors keeping myself in cover. A hunting team are often losing oversight and exposing themselves in the eagerness to catch you. That's how you win against them
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What percentage of Marathon players believe they can win a 1v3? The top 10%? Maybe the top 30%? Heck, maybe the top 50% most skilled Marathon players think 1v3ing the other team is fun.

But that means 50% of the player base doesn't think it's fun. Those people tend to quit.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
What percentage of Marathon players believe they can win a 1v3? The top 10%? Maybe the top 30%? Heck, maybe the top 50% most skilled Marathon players think 1v3ing the other team is fun.

But that means 50% of the player base doesn't think it's fun. Those people tend to quit.
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1v3 in this game is easier than most other team games i can think of.

I've played this game for *checks notes* 270 hours now and you are inventing a problem that doesn't exist. If you end up in a 1v3 it shouldn't feel hopeless and it doesn't. When you come out on top and clutch for your team there's nothing else like it.

A random once personally thanked me with an Amazon gift card he was so greatful*

*I may have dreamed this.
 
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clarky said:
1v3 in this game is easier than most other team games i can think of.

I've played this game for *checks notes* 270 hours now and you are inventing a problem that doesn't exist. If you end up in a 1v3 it shouldn't feel hopeless and it doesn't. When you come out on top and clutch for your team there's nothing else like it.

A random once personally thanked me with an Amazon gift card he was so greatful*

*I may have dreamed this.
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Is 1v3ing easier for you? What about players in the bottom 20% of the skill spectrum? How fun or realistic is 1v3ing for the games punching bags?

I think a lot of talk surrounding Marathon is "Well I can do it so it's good." You have to be able to see the perspectives of the entire player base.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
Is 1v3ing easier for you? What about players in the bottom 20% of the skill spectrum? How fun or realistic is 1v3ing for the games punching bags?

I think a lot of talk surrounding Marathon is "Well I can do it so it's good." You have to be able to see the perspectives of the entire player base.
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No, a 1v3 is never easy but it is entirely possible by using your environment and whatever shell and equipment you might have handy.

Like i said i don't see the issue you can always run off and hide, combat isn't the only option. Create a diversion, call in a supply drop, agro some bots. Plenty of tools and options at a players disposal already.
 
clarky said:
No, a 1v3 is never easy but it is entirely possible by using your environment and whatever shell and equipment you might have handy.

Like i said i don't see the issue you can always run off and hide, combat isn't the only option. Create a diversion, call in a supply drop, agro some bots. Plenty of tools and options at a players disposal already.
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True, but are thise options fun? And don't say "Yeah, they're fun for me...therefore they're fun."

Try to think about the experience of the low skill player and the two other players watching him from their death screen.

I'm pretty surprised at the resistance to fun and the belief that Marathon is too good to do a full diagnostic.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
True, but are thise options fun? And don't say "Yeah, they're fun for me...therefore they're fun."

Try to think about the experience of the low skill player and the two other players watching him from their death screen.

I'm pretty surprised at the resistance to fun and the belief that Marathon is too good to do a full diagnostic.
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No resistance to fun here.

The bottom 20% of players couldn't win a 1v3 if you gave them a nuclear weapon.

Besides Rook is basically a training mode for how to use your brain and out smart teams and its incredibly fun.
 
clarky said:
No resistance to fun here.

The bottom 20% of players couldn't win a 1v3 if you gave them a nuclear weapon.
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The key isn't winning. The key is fun.

Right now, 1v3s aren't fun for a large percentage of Marathons population...at least that's my hypothesis. Giving players more interesting comeback mechanics that develop the games strategic and tactical element should probably be explored. Not to mention it would help the games "water cooler moment" aspect which is important for this genre.
clarky said:
Besides Rook is basically a training mode for how to use your brain and out smart teams and its incredibly fun.
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Don't look at the game and blame the players for "not getting it". Look at the player and try to understand what experiences in the game cause them to say "Ya know what, I'm unintalling." Rook runs are irrelevant when you're playing with one or two friends.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
The key isn't winning. The key is fun.

Right now, 1v3s aren't fun for a large percentage of Marathons population...at least that's my hypothesis. Giving players more interesting comeback mechanics that develop the games strategic and tactical element should probably be explored. Not to mention it would help the games "water cooler moment" aspect which is important for this genre.
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Got to disagree with you here. 1v3 are fun for everyone when you pull them off, in any game, same as this one. The game doesn't need any more mechanics on top of what it already has lets face it there is already a fuck ton of shit going on i fail to see why adding more on top would make things more "fun".
Men_in_Boxes said:
Don't look at the game and blame the players for "not getting it". Look at the player and try to understand what experiences in the game cause them to say "Ya know what, I'm unintalling." Rook runs are irrelevant when you're playing with one or two friends.
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Not irrelevant when discussing 1v3's, that why I brought it up. Rook is 1v3 the mode and its very fun.
 
LyricalShrike said:
You're not following the discussion.
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I don't think you are following what I'm saying. I'm not talking about in your no free kit fill squad future, I'm talking about right now. You said nobody disagrees with me but "do it in solo or premade squad". How it is right now I can do it in solo fill squad where most people that I see are free kits as well, hence the "so I'll be the only geared person" if I put on a kit. I don't play solo, I play fill squad or premade squad so if I stop playing the solo fill squad part like you suggest I'll be down to waiting for friends to come online. I have and will continue to use free kits in both where necessary. If anything changes, we can discuss it again then.
 
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clarky said:
Got to disagree with you here. 1v3 are fun for everyone when you pull them off, in any game, same as this one. The game doesn't need any more mechanics on top of what it already has lets face it there is already a fuck ton of shit going on i fail to see why adding more on top would make things more "fun".
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I think we have a fundamental disagreement on why people are quitting. I think a large aspect is that the game is really only fun if you can hit your shots better than your opponent. It does a relatively poor job at keeping the low skill player engaged long term.

I think it's possible that you, a high skill player, isn't concerned with how much fun low skill players are having. From a game design perspective, I think Bungie has to be.
clarky said:
Not irrelevant when discussing 1v3's, that why I brought it up. Rook is 1v3 the mode and its very fun.
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No, I'm saying players are quitting (my theory) because they're low skill and the experience playing in trios (the primary mode of the game) isn't good at engaging them.

I suppose neither you nor I have have made compelling arguments for who is specifically quitting Marathon...though I think it's clear today that onboarding is not the issue.
 
Guardian Monkey said:
Why are we talking about 1 vs 3 and the dependance on other players being an issue when solo mode exist?
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No idea im stuck on a train and I'm trying to understand why he thinks this is a problem.

And its the first im hearing that a low skill player should receive extra tools to make those engagements more viable, its a 1v3 most people will die most of the time.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
I think we have a fundamental disagreement on why people are quitting. I think a large aspect is that the game is really only fun if you can hit your shots better than your opponent. It does a relatively poor job at keeping the low skill player engaged long term.

I think it's possible that you, a high skill player, isn't concerned with how much fun low skill players are having. From a game design perspective, I think Bungie has to be.

No, I'm saying players are quitting (my theory) because they're low skill and the experience playing in trios (the primary mode of the game) isn't good at engaging them.

I suppose neither you nor I have have made compelling arguments for who is specifically quitting Marathon...though I think it's clear today that onboarding is not the issue.
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Onboarding is a massive issue. Many folks tried the server slam and instantly dismissed it. The same will occur when they do a free weekend if they don't sort it out.
 
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clarky said:
No idea im stuck on a train and I'm trying to understand why he thinks this is a problem.

And its the first im hearing that a low skill player should receive extra tools to make those engagements more viable, its a 1v3 most people will die most of the time.
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He needs pay to win asap. Then maybe he will pick up the game.
 
clarky said:
Onboarding is a massive issue. Many folks tried the server slam and instantly dismissed it. The same will occur when they do a free weekend if they don't sort it out.
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The onboarding team is different than the PvP team. Both teams are brainstorming how to improve their issues.

I no longer buy onboarding being a major factor considering how steady the games population fall is. If onboarding was a major issue we'd see most of the player drop off at week 1 and settle out with all the players who got through the first 5 - 10 hours.

Obviously they should still address it, but I think there's a more fundamental problem (PvP) that's causing players to quit.

(Also, no one has even addressed why a remote rez / remote bomb would make the game worse)
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
The onboarding team is different than the PvP team. Both teams are brainstorming how to improve their issues.

I no longer buy onboarding being a major factor considering how steady the games population fall is. If onboarding was a major issue we'd see most of the player drop off at week 1 and settle out with all the players who got through the first 5 - 10 hours.

Obviously they should still address it, but I think there's a more fundamental problem (PvP) that's causing players to quit.

(Also, no one has even addressed why a remote rez / remote bomb would make the game worse)
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I already said who i think is quitting Marathon. Mostly solo folks who don't have a premade team, so most people. The Solo mode is not tuned correctly and doesn't really work for casual play, The solo trio's queue fucking sucks the way the contracts and matchmaking works. So as a casual solo player what are you going to do? Play Rook? For what? to load into a random trio match with some new gear only for your team mates usually with no mic's to all run off in different directions doing different contracts and die. This is what early low level play is like and why most do not have a good time.

This is the area they need to concentrate on to make the game fun. A lone wolf queue with a specific random contract assigned to your team would go along way to alleviate the issues, but it took them years to implement something similar to Comp Destiny so I'm not holding my breath.

But most of us told them this 6 months ago and they did jack shit about it.

Edited. Crappy wifi weird posting issues.
 
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clarky said:
I already said who i think is quitting Marathon. Mostly solo folks who don't have a premade team, so most people. The Solo mode is not tuned correctly and doesn't really work for casual play, The solo trio's queue fucking sucks the way the contracts and matchmaking works. So as a casual solo player what are you going to do? Play Rook? For what? to load into a random trio match with some new gear only for your team mates usually with no mic's to all run off in different directions doing different contracts and die. This is what early low level play is like and why most do not have a good time.

This is the area they need to concentrate on to make the game fun.

But most of us told them this 6 months ago and they did jack shit about it.
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I like your theory. I think the solo experience needs to be improved.

But I also think you greatly overlook how inferior the team based experience is for the low skill player.

The fantasy of Marathon is sold as "A team of operators drop into a alien planet and work together to knock off objectives".

If you're writing that story as a TV show, a movie, a book, or a legitimate cooperative game...the fantasy is always delivered with 3 players who are all relatively as important as one another.

Example: The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Marathon delivers its fantasy by making the bottom 20% of its players feel like purses. A team of 3 can play Marathon for 5 hours and the high skill player can get ~60 kills and feel like Superman...while the low skill player of the group can get...13 kills in 5 hours (and knocked 47 times)

I'm sorry, but it's not a great experience if you play trios with a high variability in skill because the game doesn't give players anything fun to do outside of clicking heads.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
I like your theory. I think the solo experience needs to be improved.

But I also think you greatly overlook how inferior the team based experience is for the low skill player.

The fantasy of Marathon is sold as "A team of operators drop into a alien planet and work together to knock off objectives".

If you're writing that story as a TV show, a movie, a book, or a legitimate cooperative game...the fantasy is always delivered with 3 players who are all relatively as important as one another.

Example: The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Marathon delivers its fantasy by making the bottom 20% of its players feel like purses. A team of 3 can play Marathon for 5 hours and the high skill player can get ~60 kills and feel like Superman...while the low skill player of the group can get...13 kills in 5 hours (and knocked 47 times)

I'm sorry, but it's not a great experience if you play trios with a high variability in skill because the game doesn't give players anything fun to do outside of clicking heads.
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Fits into my theory, most randoms at lower levels do not play as a team and drop the game before they fully understand it.
 
clarky said:
The way it sticks to close up targets is whack. Should not exist as those ranges at all.
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yes its awful. It fucks with your aim a lot of the times. One time i was in a corridor and my aim was stuck to the closest UESC instead of the player behind the ai, ofc i died. Its stupidly strong
 
dreamstation said:
I don't think you are following what I'm saying. I'm not talking about in your no free kit fill squad future, I'm talking about right now. You said nobody disagrees with me but "do it in solo or premade squad". How it is right now I can do it in solo fill squad where most people that I see are free kits as well, hence the "so I'll be the only geared person" if I put on a kit. I don't play solo, I play fill squad or premade squad so if I stop playing the solo fill squad part like you suggest I'll be down to waiting for friends to come online. I have and will continue to use free kits in both where necessary. If anything changes, we can discuss it again then.
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Nah mate you skipped around and got your feathers in a huff without following the context. The discussion had been about ways to limit free kits.

You said multi step quests are not a good use of gear. What else is gear for except to maximize your chances of getting out? Why would you bother playing in frees when greens are so cheap? Going into diremarsh in a free kit is inconsiderate to teammates since you know people are going to be geared there. Hence the suggestion that free kits be moved to solos and premades to ensure everybody in the party consents to your personal preference.
 
Need to have a lie down after that last solo run. Killed 2 at maintenance in dire Marsh. They were absolutely tooled up so I got a ton of great gear. Realized I had no ammo for their weapons and had to get out via the guarded exfil...got downed by the bots and must have made it out with about 2 seconds....

😱
 
LyricalShrike said:
Nah mate you skipped around and got your feathers in a huff without following the context. The discussion had been about ways to limit free kits.
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...what? At work so can't talk much but not sure what you're on about here. Sounds like you got your wires crossed. Nobody was skipping around or in a "huff".

LyricalShrike said:
Going into diremarsh in a free kit is inconsiderate to teammates since you know people are going to be geared there.
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I'd go as far to say 90% of the fill squad runs I've done have everyone in my team as a free kit, even players that are level 75+
 
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ViciousAgenda said:
Need to have a lie down after that last solo run. Killed 2 at maintenance in dire Marsh. They were absolutely tooled up so I got a ton of great gear. Realized I had no ammo for their weapons and had to get out via the guarded exfil...got downed by the bots and must have made it out with about 2 seconds....

😱
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Was final exfil contested? My version of the story is worse. I was at the end of a run on outpost where I had geared up pretty well. Good fights, kills, items I needed. Good all around. I completely forgot that the map has an edge and fell from it while doing parkour as I waited for the exfil to open. Self-inflicted fail.
 
dreamstation said:
I'd go as far to say 90% of the fill squad runs I've done have everyone in my team as a free kit, even players that are level 75+
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This is the issue. Why risk your own gear when 90% of the time your team mates will be on a free kit. In which case if you don't have a crew to run with whats the point in gearing up at all?
 
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Interesting bug. Underestimate double me at your peril.
 
dreamstation said:
I'd go as far to say 90% of the fill squad runs I've done have everyone in my team as a free kit, even players that are level 75+
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Free kits cause such behavior because everybody is afraid to risk even the slightest amount of gear due to fears about what other people bring. Players who want to use gear in MM are punished by being paired with deliberately handicapped teammates.

Arc finally priotized geared players going into full raids because of how often one would enter a map which had been looted in the first few minutes by free kits/nakeds who extracted immediately. Tarkov uses time in lieu of gear as an ante for scav mode to prevent players from spamming risk free kits. Marathon has rook to allow players to build economy and learn the maps without risk and offers inexpensive sponsored kits if one is really struggling to wear cheap gear. Free kit spam isn't needed.
 
LyricalShrike said:
Was final exfil contested? My version of the story is worse. I was at the end of a run on outpost where I had geared up pretty well. Good fights, kills, items I needed. Good all around. I completely forgot that the map has an edge and fell from it while doing parkour as I waited for the exfil to open. Self-inflicted fail.
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Not contested but I had no ammo to fight the bots 😬
 
ViciousAgenda said:
Not contested but I had no ammo to fight the bots 😬
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Fuuuuck. I know how disturbing watching them suck your juices as the exfil timer ticks down can be. good on you for surviving.

Do you know that there is a last exfil that shows up when the timer counts down? It's not a contested one but everybody knows it's there.
 
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Mad run on Rook there.

Found the lift key on outpost straight away, went in unconstested. Did drone wing didn't get greedy and got out.

Noticed a red key box unlooted as i drop out, grab it. Notice 5 dead bodies just sat there under the drone wing, Blue and purples galore.

Exit via locked exfil just over the way. Not a shot fired. Odd shit. 15k up in just a few minutes.
 
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clarky said:
Fits into my theory, most randoms at lower levels do not play as a team and drop the game before they fully understand it.
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The true path for Extraction: Put solos, duos, and trios in the same lobbies but design and assign classes based on squad size.

Side note: Anyone else think the Guarded Exfil should drop 3x the number of bots? I feel like that skirmish is over way too quickly.
 
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Men_in_Boxes said:
The true path for Extraction: Put solos, duos, and trios in the same lobbies but design and assign classes based on squad size.

Side note: Anyone else think the Guarded Exfil should drop 3x the number of bots? I feel like that skirmish is over way too quickly.
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Too many bots would make it too easy for Rooks and Assassins to exfil. Because the objective for Rook is for other players to fire at them and draw the bots attention.
 
Been thinking about it a little more and I feel like a big part of this game that stresses me out is the background music. While cool and fitting for the game it creates a sense of unease and dread in me while I play... im gonna see if I can totally mute the background audio I hope I can I think that honestly would help.

Sweet yeah you can mute the lobby music and the game music. Let's see if this helps.
 
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LyricalShrike said:
Theres a locked door at the end of the ruined wing outside of the lockdown walls. I spent awhile thinking that was the way in on that side.
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Pretty sure that's just a regular treasure room like other maps you need the specific key for you are referring to.
 
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