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Marathon approaching 15k CCU low (sponsored by coachmcguirk91 - still having a blast)

Is this becoming the Oppenheimer and Barbie of GaaS (If we forget the titan of ARC).

Marathon and Hunt are really duking it out.

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I even reinstalled hunt today to see the changes. Even gave them some dollars for a cool skin on sale. Played an intense and fun match - liking a lot of the new changes like stats and profile customizations.

At this point I just want to hit level 100 with marathon for the platinum then wait for season 2 or major cryo fixes.
 
The numbers look better this week until you look at the context behind them.

Only a 6.5% decrease WoW, might look the decline is slowing down.

However, it's a massive holiday weekend in Europe/OCE, and still a decent Holiday weekend in parts of the US.

Steam is up 11% in game players WoW.

Marathon is only 70th in CCU.

Remove that 11% Holiday bump and we're in line with the standard 17-23% WoW decrease.

Upcoming Tuesday will be telling if the bleed has started to slow or it got a temporary stay from the Holiday.
 
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I look at the somewhat low numbers as something that can actually improve the game. This will push Bungie to add stuff - I would love to have a coop mode with worse loot and less risk for example. That could pull people in too
 
I look at the somewhat low numbers as something that can actually improve the game. This will push Bungie to add stuff - I would love to have a coop mode with worse loot and less risk for example. That could pull people in too
They can't improve on it because the game is already good.

-Paul Assi
 
I look at the somewhat low numbers as something that can actually improve the game. This will push Bungie to add stuff - I would love to have a coop mode with worse loot and less risk for example. That could pull people in too
Bro it ain't happening. When a game literally looks like crap the precedent is set, there's nothing they can do that'll break the barrier into like all of the sudden 100k people swarm in, it isn't happening no matter what they do.
 
It's interesting to see how Hunt is the more popular game in Europe and Marathon in US.

it's end of day in Europe now and Hunt is going down but Marathon, whilst doing its slight daily stall, had not yet peaked.

Also The Division seems to get its bump later than Hunt but before Marathon. Maybe The Division is biggest with the fish in the Atlantic?

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One of the desperate things they could do is collaborations, but with that art is really hard to find something that fits that visual. Oh well, just say "fuck it" and add TMNT and Godzilla to extend a game for a month before death.
 
One of the desperate things they could do is collaborations, but with that art is really hard to find something that fits that visual. Oh well, just say "fuck it" and add TMNT and Godzilla to extend a game for a month before death.

Filter any IP through the MEGA BLOKS machine and you've got yourself that perfect Marathon plastic look

iu
 
5 pm EST completed hour
(All time peak was launch day 88.3k)

Compared to yesterday (Fri vs Thu): 30.2k vs 28.2k (+2k or +7%)

Yesterday's peak 36.4k. If the rate holds, peak tonight will be 38.9k

Yesterday's low 12k. If the rate holds, low tonight will be 12.8k

Steam Rankings
Daily Active Users 61
Global Top Sellers 47
Weekly Top Sellers 32 (was 26 last week)
Top Rated Games 5,354 (84.90%)
 
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Liking the game so far, say what you want but it has that same addictive FPS magic bungie games are known for. So far miffed it doesn't have a PVE only mode.. for those of us who want to just chill and kill AI and complete objectives and learn the ropes.. Been playing with my youngest daughter and shes been loving it too. Hope it wont die and they release more content and shells and give us proper customization skins etc. ALSO anyone who spawn camps or puts claymores in spawn spots is a loser.. learn how to really play and earn those kills LOL. Will do some videos on my channel and site and working on a review of the game too. Its a good game so far but does seem light on content.
 
Liking the game so far, say what you want but it has that same addictive FPS magic bungie games are known for. So far miffed it doesn't have a PVE only mode.. for those of us who want to just chill and kill AI and complete objectives and learn the ropes.. Been playing with my youngest daughter and shes been loving it too. Hope it wont die and they release more content and shells and give us proper customization skins etc. ALSO anyone who spawn camps or puts claymores in spawn spots is a loser.. learn how to really play and earn those kills LOL. Will do some videos on my channel and site and working on a review of the game too. Its a good game so far but does seem light on content.
No one can place claymores in your spawn. Maps can randomly have them in some areas though already placed as traps on the map against all players.

Most do not spawn camp but if you play long enough you'll know where players can come from so you tend to be more focused on that so you don't get jumped. That said dire marsh does have some of obnoxious very close within 15 seconds spawn on top of each other.
 
It's interesting to see how Hunt is the more popular game in Europe and Marathon in US.

it's end of day in Europe now and Hunt is going down but Marathon, whilst doing its slight daily stall, had not yet peaked.

Also The Division seems to get its bump later than Hunt but before Marathon. Maybe The Division is biggest with the fish in the Atlantic?

VSl3GFq5SDVaOrLm.png
A bunch of games actually increased WoW while Marathon seemingly continues to decline:

Hunt Last Friday: 33K
Hunt This Friday: 35K

Division 2 Last Friday: 15.8K
Division 2 This Friday: 17.4K

ARC Raiders Last Friday: 123K
ARC Raiders This Friday: 153K

Marathon Last Friday: 44K
Marathon This Friday: 38K (if current pace holds)
 
It's interesting to see how Hunt is the more popular game in Europe and Marathon in US.

it's end of day in Europe now and Hunt is going down but Marathon, whilst doing its slight daily stall, had not yet peaked.

Also The Division seems to get its bump later than Hunt but before Marathon. Maybe The Division is biggest with the fish in the Atlantic?

VSl3GFq5SDVaOrLm.png
Div2 is also on GP, PS+, UPlay, Epic, and Steam. Wouldn't be surprised if it had more players than Marathon, just spread out across services. Just got back into it with the big anniversary event and new season.
 
I can definitely admit when I was wrong but I've prophesized too many realities to have that label make any sense.

When Steph Curry hoists the Finals MVP trophy above his head, nobody cares about the 35 3 pointers he missed in the series. Gaastrodamus is OK with not hitting 100% of his predictions.

And again, I agree with everyone that Marathon is in trouble, but make no mistake, it's not dead yet...


The fact it wasn't incredibly obvious to you that this game, not to mention highguard, was going to heavily underperform negates anything you could ever say. I typically prefer not to speculate in absolutes, but this game turning things around is effectively impossible. Were this the infinite parallel earths scenario, there might be a single one where this game doesnt fade away into complete irrelevance.
 
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Div2 is also on GP, PS+, UPlay, Epic, and Steam. Wouldn't be surprised if it had more players than Marathon, just spread out across services. Just got back into it with the big anniversary event and new season.

I can tell you with absolute certainly that PlayStation has a LOT of players. When I was big into the game(quit a couple of years ago) it wasn't uncommon to have Countdown lobbies fill instantly at all times, constant calls for assistance in PvE, plenty of people join for missions if your toggle is on and, often for my squad in PvP, full servers in Dark Zone.

And this was only a couple of years ago, but my former mates report the game is still very active as it was then.

PvP is harder to come by outside of Conflict due to pretty bad balancing issues, but it can be found if you look for a good Dark Zone server.

The game is and has been quite popular on PlayStation, probably moreso now.
 
The fact it wasn't incredibly obvious to you that this game, not to mention highguard, was going to heavily underperform negates anything you could ever say. I typically prefer not to speculate in absolutes, but this game turning things around is effectively impossible. Were this the infinite parallel earths scenario, there might be a single one where this game doesnt fade away into complete irrelevance.
Jim Carrey Chance GIF
 
Reading the OT and is it just me but just reading the conversations about this game like the misery these guys sound playing with nonstop failures and loss and constantly losing on these maps, sounds absolutely fucking abysmal. I mean holy christ I can't even stress how there is not one fucking thing that this game does to call me.

Like you read other OT and see things whether it's the joy of questing and or fun maps, cool loot, stories, gear... Just random OT discussions in other games and marathon litrelly is so awful to even read about. It really is.
 
I can tell you with absolute certainly that PlayStation has a LOT of players. When I was big into the game(quit a couple of years ago) it wasn't uncommon to have Countdown lobbies fill instantly at all times, constant calls for assistance in PvE, plenty of people join for missions if your toggle is on and, often for my squad in PvP, full servers in Dark Zone.

And this was only a couple of years ago, but my former mates report the game is still very active as it was then.

PvP is harder to come by outside of Conflict due to pretty bad balancing issues, but it can be found if you look for a good Dark Zone server.

The game is and has been quite popular on PlayStation, probably moreso now.
It's supposed to get cross play this month. That should really help out with filling out all the game modes. I play primarily on PC, but I also have it on Xbox from playing it at release and I just bought the Ultimate Edition it on PS since it was dirt cheap.
 
Reading the OT and is it just me but just reading the conversations about this game like the misery these guys sound playing with nonstop failures and loss and constantly losing on these maps, sounds absolutely fucking abysmal. I mean holy christ I can't even stress how there is not one fucking thing that this game does to call me.

Like you read other OT and see things whether it's the joy of questing and or fun maps, cool loot, stories, gear... Just random OT discussions in other games and marathon litrelly is so awful to even read about. It really is.
UuunQVjvuNDRIuzu.jpeg


Just fucking with you bro. I played with GAF today and had a good time. I played solos and got a ton of good loot and some massive outplays- great time. Learning to play a new shell a bit more and it's saved my ass clutch a few times.

This opinion you just posted hasn't shit to do with marathon btw - you don't like the extraction genre. You wouldn't like hunt or Tarkov either. It has the highest highs and lowest lows. Except arc which is a social sim game with light extraction elements.
 
UuunQVjvuNDRIuzu.jpeg


Just fucking with you bro. I played with GAF today and had a good time. I played solos and got a ton of good loot and some massive outplays- great time. Learning to play a new shell a bit more and it's saved my ass clutch a few times.

This opinion you just posted hasn't shit to do with marathon btw - you don't like the extraction genre. You wouldn't like hunt or Tarkov either. It has the highest highs and lowest lows. Except arc which is a social sim game with light extraction elements.
Haha no trust me man I get it it's Def not for me and you guys can do your thing, it's just tho the banter in between doesn't sell the game is all.

I enjoy reading the OT just to see the chats but like I said I try to look for little tidbits that might spark my interest more, it's not the first time I disliked a game or genre and warmed up to it
 
Reading the OT and is it just me but just reading the conversations about this game like the misery these guys sound playing with nonstop failures and loss and constantly losing on these maps, sounds absolutely fucking abysmal. I mean holy christ I can't even stress how there is not one fucking thing that this game does to call me.

Like you read other OT and see things whether it's the joy of questing and or fun maps, cool loot, stories, gear... Just random OT discussions in other games and marathon litrelly is so awful to even read about. It really is.
You've made it quite clear multiple times that extraction shooters aren't for you so it shouldn't surprise you (I'm not saying that in a combative way btw).

The best compliment I and many others that play Marathon can give it is this.

I can go into a match and lose some of the best stuff I have in my vault and come out of a match tilted as hell but I still come back over and over again. Hell my buddy and I got our shit rocked over and over again to the point we had to switch games (where we also got our shit rocked so it just wasn't our night) because we both just couldn't handle it anymore the other night. The next morning I was doing solo runs and enjoying the hell out of it. This is the most fun I've had playing a game in a long time.

What you are seeing is simply the nature of extraction shooters. When people call Arc Raiders an extraction shooter for babies it's because it really is and that isn't to say the game is bad. It's just to say that the game is very friendly and it's become the norm now that people play Arc for the social side of things and not really the extraction shooter gameplay side of things.

If you think people that play Marathon seem negative you should talk to people that play Tarkov. I have hundreds of hours in that game and if you ever talked to me and plenty of others with hundreds or thousands of hours in the game you'd think we only played it because we had a literal gun to our heads and were being force to play it.

tl;dr It doesn't matter how badly matches go or how much stuff I lose I always want to go back because the core gameplay is just that good whether it's solo, teams, or rook runs.
 
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Stats below are after 11 pm, so a bit past 10 pm completed hour. Wanted to get this out before logging off as the peak has stabilized so it should be the high.
(All time peak was launch day 88.3k)

Compared to yesterday (Fri vs Thu): 36.2k vs 36.4k (-200 or -0.5%)

Yesterday's low 12k. If the rate holds, low tonight will be 11.9k

All day it was growing vs yesterday, but ended up flat

Steam Rankings
Daily Active Users 61
Global Top Sellers 41
Weekly Top Sellers 32 (was 26 last week)
Top Rated Games 5,354 (84.90%)

Stolen image...... Even the PS countries that were holding it up best as possible (US, Can, UK, Aus, Japan) have hugely dropped off. They all dropped off a good 20 spots from last time. PC is holding this game up. Estimates were 70/30 sales split for PC. In terms of active gamers, I wouldnt be surprised if PC gamers are actually 80+% of users left. For you Marathon console gamers out there in less popular countries, might want to have crossplay on even if you hate playing against PC gamers.

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You've made it quite clear multiple times that extraction shooters aren't for you so it shouldn't surprise you (I'm not saying that in a combative way btw).

The best compliment I and many others that play Marathon can give it is this.

I can go into a match and lose some of the best stuff I have in my vault and come out of a match tilted as hell but I still come back over and over again. Hell my buddy and I got our shit rocked over and over again to the point we had to switch games (where we also got our shit rocked so it just wasn't our night) because we both just couldn't handle it anymore the other night. The next morning I was doing solo runs and enjoying the hell out of it. This is the most fun I've had playing a game in a long time.

What you are seeing is simply the nature of extraction shooters. When people call Arc Raiders an extraction shooter for babies it's because it really is and that isn't to say the game is bad. It's just to say that the game is very friendly and it's become the norm now that people play Arc for the social side of things and not really the extraction shooter gameplay side of things.

If you think people that play Marathon seem negative you should talk to people that play Tarkov. I have hundreds of hours in that game and if you ever talked to me and plenty of others with hundreds or thousands of hours in the game you'd think we only played it because we had a literal gun to our heads and were being force to play it.
I get it trust me, it's just both ends of a conversation is all know what I mean? It's simply different angles of how I see it, even tho I dislike extraction I still am never 100 impervious to warming up to a genre or game.

Just the same as you guys made it clear you like extraction and marathon, it's simply just part of the conversation is my point. We all know where eveyeone stands, but we still converse.

I just find the amount of loss involved hard to get how folks like that, but that's just me is all.
 
Oh one more stat comparison, this week's cryo and Easter Thursday and Friday vs last week.

Thursday vs LW: 36.4k vs 40.8k (-4.4k or -10.8%)

Friday vs LW: 36.2k vs 43.9k (-7.7k or -17.5%)
 
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I get it trust me, it's just both ends of a conversation is all know what I mean? It's simply different angles of how I see it, even tho I dislike extraction I still am never 100 impervious to warming up to a genre or game.

Just the same as you guys made it clear you like extraction and marathon, it's simply just part of the conversation is my point. We all know where eveyeone stands, but we still converse.

I just find the amount of loss involved hard to get how folks like that, but that's just me is all.
No, I get it. Like I said I'm not saying any of it in a combative way.

For me it's sort of hard to explain easily. There is a thrill in the possibility of losing everything that is addicting and exciting. When I die I rarely think it was bullshit and I generally always find something to learn from it. When I lose expensive gear I don't even really get mad and if anything I kind of get exciting to go back on the hunt to fill up my vault again.

Nothing is forever and you will lose it at some point so it's pointless to really get wrapped up in it too much. Plus much like Tarkov, Marathon implements a seasonal wipe where everybody's vault and progress gets reset back to zero anyways.

I'm sure some of the guys like Arsic Arsic and clarky clarky who both have way more time in the game then me probably feel similar.

You dislike BR as well, right? PUBG was the last game (besides Tarkov) that gave me the rush that Marathon does.
 
No, I get it. Like I said I'm not saying any of it in a combative way.

For me it's sort of hard to explain easily. There is a thrill in the possibility of losing everything that is addicting and exciting. When I die I rarely think it was bullshit and I generally always find something to learn from it. When I lose expensive gear I don't even really get mad and if anything I kind of get exciting to go back on the hunt to fill up my vault again.

Nothing is forever and you will lose it at some point so it's pointless to really get wrapped up in it too much. Plus much like Tarkov, Marathon implements a seasonal wipe where everybody's vault and progress gets reset back to zero anyways.

I'm sure some of the guys like Arsic Arsic and clarky clarky who both have way more time in the game then me probably feel similar.

You dislike BR as well, right? PUBG was the last game (besides Tarkov) that gave me the rush that Marathon does.
Yea Im just more of a classic arena type shooter fan, I enjoy larger team setups whether it's 8v8 or 10v10 or big team stuff like battlefield offerings etc... 3v3 in trials was it's own thing that was more of a smaller mode despite being super sweaty I did love but I'm just a fan of more team modes. That's why BR didn't land either which I won a few rounds of fortnite and war zone but I just don't get into it at all.

I'm just ready for the next big concept. Like to me I feel larger big team battle type games is what we need more of.
 
Yea Im just more of a classic arena type shooter fan, I enjoy larger team setups whether it's 8v8 or 10v10 or big team stuff like battlefield offerings etc... 3v3 in trials was it's own thing that was more of a smaller mode despite being super sweaty I did love but I'm just a fan of more team modes. That's why BR didn't land either which I won a few rounds of fortnite and war zone but I just don't get into it at all.

I'm just ready for the next big concept. Like to me I feel larger big team battle type games is what we need more of.
I understand that. Extraction shooters and Battle Royale are very similar in many ways (high risk high reward) and definitely aren't for everybody.

Did you ever play MAG back on PS3? I fucking loved that game, and it was so crazy to see back then with 256 player matches on console. I would love to see something like that return.
 
I understand that. Extraction shooters and Battle Royale are very similar in many ways (high risk high reward) and definitely aren't for everybody.

Did you ever play MAG back on PS3? I fucking loved that game, and it was so crazy to see back then with 256 player matches on console. I would love to see something like that return.
Hah wow that is a shit load, never heard of it tbh... I was big time still glued to mmos in the ps3 days so that's mainly why but yea I feel like this day and age we should have stuff like that.

Like a game where there's always a battle taking place to capture territory perhaps and you have that type of a range of players... I just feel we should be so much further than something like BR which outside of the small groups always felt way to closed off, I want to play with large teams... Be nice to see some large team play come down the pike eventually.
 
Haha no trust me man I get it it's Def not for me and you guys can do your thing, it's just tho the banter in between doesn't sell the game is all.

I enjoy reading the OT just to see the chats but like I said I try to look for little tidbits that might spark my interest more, it's not the first time I disliked a game or genre and warmed up to it
I've always liked the idea of extraction shooters, especially Tarkov. Tarkovs main issues are insane cheating and a minimum 5000 hour tutorial.

I wanted the genre to have a competent studio without the insane investment just to play.

Arc doesn't have a competent studio behind it imo, and as mentioned is a social sim.

Marathon is it. Within 10-15 hours all the gears click, and its dopamine regularly. Plus Bungie perma bans cheaters on first offense.
 
Oh one more stat comparison, this week's cryo and Easter Thursday and Friday vs last week.

Thursday vs LW: 36.4k vs 40.8k (-4.4k or -10.8%)

Friday vs LW: 36.2k vs 43.9k (-7.7k or -17.5%)
The week over week percentage drops are just brutal. It hasn't hit a stable floor yet.

They are going to have to pull a Hail Mary to get this to appeal to the number to validate its enormous cost. As it is now, the general audience wants no part of Marathon at $40.

There just isn't enough hardcore players to ever bring back a return to get close to break even. And even they will move.on to the next game when they get bored weeks, months from now.
 
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I've always liked the idea of extraction shooters, especially Tarkov. Tarkovs main issues are insane cheating and a minimum 5000 hour tutorial.

I wanted the genre to have a competent studio without the insane investment just to play.

Arc doesn't have a competent studio behind it imo, and as mentioned is a social sim.

Marathon is it. Within 10-15 hours all the gears click, and its dopamine regularly. Plus Bungie perma bans cheaters on first offense.
Arc got me into the extraction genre but Marathon and Hunt Showdown are what keeps me there, I've dumped Arc and I've uninstalled it already.
Marathon knows what it is and I agree that things need to change to bring more players in but its gameplay is unapologetic and tight.
Marathon knows exactly what type of game it is and its does it perfectly.
 
Marathon is a mean little game by its nature. Nothing gonna change that without betrayal of its own identity. Not many people wanna play that mean little bullshit… let's be real here, even most many CoD type pvp lovers hate this shit. Even if they don't hate it, it's so stressful that it is unsustainable, and people burn out and leave real quick. The matches are too long, the community is too sweaty, and the pattern is too toxic. The games have too many requirements from the player not to suck often. The meta is sneaky rat fuck shit. Mean. They should just chase the community they already have, instead of making the game easier. The problem is the good people will stay and the bad people will leave, and it will become impenetrable…

I'll be honest though, I still do believe that it could turn around…. I don't feel good about predicting its demise this early.

I think asking for sp mode is trolling, lol. There are plenty who really want it, don't get me wrong but if you know you know. This is like asking for ketchup on a steak at a high end steakhouse. You have offended the chef, lol.

To people who don't like micing up or don't like PvP this game is anathema. The audience is limited. It's a shame because I love the art style, and I love the neon shit. It's just a shame they pick such a narrow audience target, everybody wanted a bungie game, not just yall, don't you imagine that's why everybody's pissed?
 
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Canada gets tomorrow off. Gov workers get Monday off too.

We'll see how it plays out for USA peak. I googled it (hope I got it right):

USA. Good Friday and Easter Monday not stat holidays, though some states/companies will do it
Canada. Good Friday is, but Monday is not unless it's a gov or regulated industry like banks
France. Easter Monday is, but Good Friday isnt except one area I think
UK and Germany. Both days are stat holidays

But at first glance, it makes sense the afternoon had high CCUs if UK and German gamers have tomorrow off.
My wife works for a uni, whenever there is a national holiday they get an extra day off. So in the uk, everyone gets the Friday and Monday off for Easter, so she gets the Thursday, Friday, Monday and Tuesday off (these are free, ontop of their very generous yearly holiday allowance).
 
10 am completed hour
(All time peak was launch day 88.3k)

Compared to yesterday (Sat vs Fri): 21k vs 20.1k (+900 or +4.5%)

Yesterday's low 13.5k. If the rate holds, low tonight will be 14.1k

Steam Rankings
Daily Active Users 65
Global Top Sellers 54
Weekly Top Sellers 32 (was 26 last week)
Top Rated Games 5,371 (84.87%)

All metrics dropping. Marathon is tight locked with The Sad Story of Emmeline Burns. If Marathon can get a few more positive reviews to prop it up 0.01%, it will match wildly popular games 6180 The Moon and Cavalry Girls. On the plus side, it is reviewing better than a Worms game from 2012.

pK5l4Z3XvqA3MLSQ.jpg
 
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I don't want Sony to get all excited or complacent, and Bungie probably never dared to dream of this type of success, but I think Cavalry Girls has real potential to be eclipsed by Marathon. No joke. Screenshot this post.
 
If unpatched, this is what will retain players more than anything Bungie can do to "fix" the game.
I swear some studios purposely dont ban cheaters or fix their anticheat just to retain gamers. Because at the end of the day, a cheater is still a sale. Dont want to mess it up or it'll scare off future cheaters from buying the game. Not just Bungie, but games like COD too.

I wouldnt be surprised one bit if the studio has internal tracking and could lay the ban hammer on tons of gamers. But they got some kind of required user threshold they need to keep so they'll purposely tolerate some kind of cheater ratio.

It cant be that hard for the servers to churn out data showing some profiles are boosting or cheating with decked out gear going 40-0 every match winning 50 games in a row. So their algorithms can analyze all kinds of gameplay to help them tweak gameplay yet the system and team cant get data to ban players? Gimme a break.
 
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I don't want Sony to get all excited or complacent, and Bungie probably never dared to dream of this type of success, but I think Cavalry Girls has real potential to be eclipsed by Marathon. No joke. Screenshot this post.
A couple weeks ago, I mentioned based on trending Legends of Idleon would surpass Marathon CCU. Yup. This game actually has peaks and lows between 12-16k at all hours of the day. I've never seen a game on Steamdb with such a narrow band 24/7. But whenever Marathon drops to around this range, Idleon often beats it. LOL

This is the game that beats Marathon CCU at certain hours of the day.

bpyErs1HknVRNB9P.jpg
 
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A couple weeks ago, I mentioned based on trending Legends of Idleon would surpass Marathon CCU. Yup. This game actually has peaks and lows between 12-16k at all hours of the day. I've never seen a game on Steamdb with such a narrow band 24/7. But whenever Marathon drops to around this range, Idleon often beats it. LOL

This is the game that beats Marathon CCU at certain hours of the day.

bpyErs1HknVRNB9P.jpg
Funny thing is whatever game that is actually intrigues me 😅
 
Damn what happened

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Easter Weekend is massively propping up numbers earlier in the day. Peaks are still down 15-20% WoW.

I posted earlier that the other main extraction shooters have all increased population WoW this weekend, Marathon is the only one of the main ones to drop.
 
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