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Tom warren gets upset at geoff keighley cause keighley called 'project helix' a PC-based Xbox hardware device.

Shogmaster said:
Fuck. Me. How are you guys this dense?
Click to expand...

Not necessary man. It ain't that serious

Shogmaster said:
It IS a defining hardware feature. If you dont have an APU, you dont have a console. But you can load any compatible software on said hardware. Software wise, anything goes for X64 APU. Open Linux distro? Sure. Modified Android? Why not. That part is up to the maker. MS is choosing to do a version of Windows that via total Software or combination of hardware and software, will be letting you play XBox games.

Sony wants everything locked diwn tight for its APU. MS is done with that and are trying a hybrid Software approach.

But at the end of the day, all the weird delineation of hardware we've used up to now for consoles, when boiled down they are APU boxes.
Click to expand...

Then we just disagree that a console can't be a console without an APU. APUs are ideal because, as you say, the keep the cost down. They also reduce the amount of heat and noise. So if you are just trying to say that APUs will probably be the tech that is used in consoles going forward since PS4 then yeah, I'll agree with you. A console with a discrete GPU just isn't feasible, but that doesn't mean it is impossible and disqualifies it from being called a console. Not when there is precedence in console history for that configuration.

To me, the defining characteristic of a PC is boot level access which allows any operating system to be installed. That's what sets Steam Machine apart from PS or Xbox. It could just as easily have an APU and that wouldn't change a thing.
 
Darkness_Arises said:
The only negative with these devices is the screen size. I hope they release an 8" version of the Odin 3, 6" and 7" just don't cut it anymore.
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Usually I'd agree with you, but for the Thor.....6 inch is about right.....one sec....

The Office Thats GIF


...had to. I think it would be too bulky with two screens.
 
Shogmaster said:
Fuck. Me. How are you guys this dense?

It IS a defining hardware feature. If you dont have an APU, you dont have a console. But you can load any compatible software on said hardware. Software wise, anything goes for X64 APU. Open Linux distro? Sure. Modified Android? Why not. That part is up to the maker. MS is choosing to do a version of Windows that via total Software or combination of hardware and software, will be letting you play XBox games.

Sony wants everything locked diwn tight for its APU. MS is done with that and are trying a hybrid Software approach.

But at the end of the day, all the weird delineation of hardware we've used up to now for consoles, when boiled down they are APU boxes.
Click to expand...
Because it was never a think before the PS4 and XBOne. Those and the PS5, XS use the same vendor for CPU and GPU. By integrating both on the same package they can cut costs, and have tighter integration.

But almost all other consoles always had separate CPUs and video processors. Would a potential Xbox handheld that used an ARM CPU and separate AMD GPU die that could dock like a Switch not be a console or handheld?
 
SScorpio said:
Because it was never a think before the PS4 and XBOne. Those and the PS5, XS use the same vendor for CPU and GPU. By integrating both on the same package they can cut costs, and have tighter integration.

But almost all other consoles always had separate CPUs and video processors. Would a potential Xbox handheld that used an ARM CPU and separate AMD GPU die that could dock like a Switch not be a console or handheld?
Click to expand...
This gen would have been much more interesting if either Sony or MS had switched over to Intel or Nvidia (ARM+GPU) relying on some kind of translation for BC. These same kind of APUs from AMD are boring.
 
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MayauMiao said:
I'll make it easier for him too. Since all console throughout gaming history can't play native PC game, then the next Xbox is a PC since it does support PC made games.
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But all PC's throughout gaming history can't play console games natively either.

Will Smith Reaction GIF
 
Fabieter said:
I dont know where the problem is calling it a pc. Its not like some kind of insult.
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Marketing to keep the fanboys evangelizing for Microsoft. Not admitting defeat for having abandoned consoles, pretending they didn't lose... This is just being disruptive.
 
Fabieter said:
I dont know where the problem is calling it a pc. Its not like some kind of insult.
Click to expand...

In terms of people like Tom Warren, it's harder to get clicks with console war silliness if it's actually a PC. Otherwise it's likely just people attempting to be accurate - MS is calling it a console, after all. It's just not everyone believes them.
 
Topher said:
It's just fake outrage. If Xbox is a PC then you'll see the narratives flip just like we've seen the fake flip on exclusivity.
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This situation is even stranger than the outrage over exclusives, which at least made some emotional sense. As long as the Helix machine offers good value, it's a positive addition. It provides more options for those who enjoy a console-like experience.

laynelane said:
In terms of people like Tom Warren, it's harder to get clicks with console war silliness if it's actually a PC. Otherwise it's likely just people attempting to be accurate - MS is calling it a console, after all. It's just not everyone believes them.
Click to expand...

Its actually a good point for tom warren.

Ms calling it a console is marketing though.
 
Fabieter said:
This situation is even stranger than the outrage over exclusives, which at least made some emotional sense. As long as the Helix machine offers good value, it's a positive addition. It provides more options for those who enjoy a console-like experience.



Its actually a good point for tom warren.

Ms calling it a console is marketing though.
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I don't get why they are going after Geoff either way. Jez Corden has been saying this thing is Windows based for months now. The hate over this is just dumb
 
Topher said:
I don't get why they are going after Geoff either way. Jez Corden has been saying this thing is Windows based for months now. The hate over this is just dumb
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They circled the wagons when he did too.

The Narrative is a powerful drug to the fellowship. Ever changing, always circling.
 
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Topher said:
I don't get why they are going after Geoff either way. Jez Corden has been saying this thing is Windows based for months now. The hate over this is just dumb
Click to expand...

Imo its also a good thing for Xbox fans. It wouldnt have made any sense to do another traditional console.

Depending on the price i might even bite the bullet if the value is good and the only xbox console i owend was the 360.
 
Fabieter said:
Imo its also a good thing for Xbox fans. It wouldnt have made any sense to do another traditional console.

Depending on the price i might even bite the bullet if the value is good and the only xbox console i owend was the 360.
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The rumored price point is appealing compared to PC. I have a feeling that everyone is underestimating the price quite a bit. This is Microsoft we are talking about.
 
fallingdove said:
The Xbox brand is dead. People need to let it go.

The fact Xbox shills are ramping up their promotional efforts after admitting the brand was buried is just Xbox marketing dusting off a tired old strategy from their ineffective playbook.
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Maybe you should inform Xbox upper management about the brand being dead, they're obviously unaware of the information you have 🙄
 
funny thing is the shillidiots should actually get behind pc messaging.
its the only way to make sense of the 1.5K$+ price tag.
 
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Topher said:
Not necessary man. It ain't that serious



Then we just disagree that a console can't be a console without an APU. APUs are ideal because, as you say, the keep the cost down. They also reduce the amount of heat and noise. So if you are just trying to say that APUs will probably be the tech that is used in consoles going forward since PS4 then yeah, I'll agree with you. A console with a discrete GPU just isn't feasible, but that doesn't mean it is impossible and disqualifies it from being called a console. Not when there is precedence in console history for that configuration.

To me, the defining characteristic of a PC is boot level access which allows any operating system to be installed. That's what sets Steam Machine apart from PS or Xbox. It could just as easily have an APU and that wouldn't change a thing.
Click to expand...
Since XBox 360.

PS3 was a mistake. Kutaragi thought Cell's SPUs by themselves could do the job of GPUs. When they came their senses it was too late to incorporate a GPU into the die and added separate RSX due on the mobo, which created separate RAM pools and caused many texture and frambuffer issues in games.
 
SScorpio said:
Because it was never a think before the PS4 and XBOne. Those and the PS5, XS use the same vendor for CPU and GPU. By integrating both on the same package they can cut costs, and have tighter integration.

But almost all other consoles always had separate CPUs and video processors. Would a potential Xbox handheld that used an ARM CPU and separate AMD GPU die that could dock like a Switch not be a console or handheld?
Click to expand...
360 was practically an APU.
 
Topher said:
The rumored price point is appealing compared to PC. I have a feeling that everyone is underestimating the price quite a bit. This is Microsoft we are talking about.
Click to expand...

So it is comparable to a similar speced pc? Didnt read any rumor about the pricing but a console like form factor might still appeal to alot of people.
 
It makes no sense to support PC and other stores if this actually supports next gen console games. Like why would they do that?
 
Shogmaster said:
Since XBox 360.

PS3 was a mistake. Kutaragi thought Cell's SPUs by themselves could do the job of GPUs. When they came their senses it was too late to incorporate a GPU into the die and added separate RSX due on the mobo, which created separate RAM pools and caused many texture and frambuffer issues in games.
Click to expand...

Right, so they wanted Cell to effectively act as an APU but it couldn't so they added a separate GPU. There is actually more precedence in the history of consoles for separated CPU and GPU chips than there are APUs.
 
Negotiator101 said:
To be fair we have no real concrete info on what the new console is actually going to do, I'm sure your question will be answered this year.
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Which has nothing to do with theorizing why they might do something.

- Is it a next-gen console but it also supports other stores in next-gen console mode? Fucking retarded idea. Why would consumers even want this? Why would Microsoft want to undercut themselves when regulators don't give 2 shits about consoles?
- Is it a next-gen console that also just fully supports Windows and people can completely ignore the console side? Also a dumb idea. Why wouldn't you just make the damn thing a console? Why are you again letting yourself be so undercut?
- Is it a PC that supports XBox in BC? Now that makes sense if they are completely transitioning away from consoles into PC Gaming. They want XBox gamers to buy a PC, and they are using Magnus as the off-ramp.

it's the only 1 of at least these 3 ideas that makes any sense to me.

I think it's typical MS gaslighting. It's a PC, so of course it will support any PC storefront. They are acting like they are being generous when it's a damn requirement of selling a Windows machine lol
 
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Negotiator101 said:
No, I'm saying you should contact Microsoft because they're unaware of your superior knowledge of the gaming market, you could have saved them billions.
Click to expand...
What a great idea! You have Satya's number right? Care to share? 🙄

Unsurprising that after all of these years buying into Xbox lies that you keep on believing. You've become the bullshit.
 
fallingdove said:
What a great idea! You have Satya's number right? Care to share? 🙄

Unsurprising that after all of these years buying into Xbox lies that you keep on believing. You've become the bullshit.
Click to expand...
Now it's come down to insults, I forgive you for being so emotionally affected by Microsoft lacking your business savvy 😉
 
IntentionalPun said:
Which has nothing to do with theorizing why they might do something.

- Is it a next-gen console but it also supports other stores in next-gen console mode? Fucking retarded idea. Why would consumers even want this? Why would Microsoft want to undercut themselves when regulators don't give 2 shits about consoles?
- Is it a next-gen console that also just fully supports Windows and people can completely ignore the console side? Also a dumb idea. Why wouldn't you just make the damn thing a console? Why are you again letting yourself be so undercut?
- Is it a PC that supports XBox in BC? Now that makes sense if they are completely transitioning away from consoles into PC Gaming. They want XBox gamers to buy a PC, and they are using Magnus as the off-ramp.

it's the only 1 of at least these 3 ideas that makes any sense to me.

I think it's typical MS gaslighting. It's a PC, so of course it will support any PC storefront. They are acting like they are being generous when it's a damn requirement of selling a Windows machine lol
Click to expand...

Stick Around Bob Ross GIF by Originals
 
Topher said:
Right, so they wanted Cell to effectively act as an APU but it couldn't so they added a separate GPU. There is actually more precedence in the history of consoles for separated CPU and GPU chips than there are APUs.
Click to expand...
They were actually going to do two cell chips, so still technically a discrete setup.

Clanker edition:
Yes, Sony originally planned to use a design involving multiple Cell processors for the PlayStation 3, with some early designs intending to use two Cell chips instead of a traditional dedicated Graphics Processing Unit (GPU).

The Original Plan:
  • Two Cell Chips: The initial design concept was to have one Cell chip acting as the CPU for physics and geometry, and a second, specialized Cell-based chip acting as the pixel processor (GPU).
  • Cell-based GPU: This proposed second chip would have used a variation of the Cell's SPUs (Synergistic Processing Units) combined with fixed-function graphics hardware (like texture units and ROPs).
  • Shared Architecture: The goal was to have a unified architecture where the same coding principles for the CPU would apply to the GPU, offering significant "synergy" advantages and easing development.

Why it Changed:
  • Performance/Schedule Issues: Sony realized late in development that they could not get the Cell-based GPU to work at the desired performance level within their schedule.
  • Panic Move to NVIDIA: Realizing the Cell-only approach was not viable for graphics, they quickly partnered with NVIDIA to use a modified GeForce 7800, which became the Reality Synthesizer (RSX) GPU.
  • Loss of Synergy: Switching to a traditional, non-Cell GPU removed the planned, highly efficient "synergy" between the CPU and GPU, which contributed to the difficulty of developing for the PS3.
Consequently, the final PlayStation 3 was released with a single Cell Broadband Engine (containing one PPE and seven usable SPEs) and a separate, traditional NVIDIA RSX GPU
 
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DeepEnigma said:
They were actually going to do two cell chips, so still technically a discrete setup.

Clanker edition:
Yes, Sony originally planned to use a design involving multiple Cell processors for the PlayStation 3, with some early designs intending to use two Cell chips instead of a traditional dedicated Graphics Processing Unit (GPU).

The Original Plan:
  • Two Cell Chips: The initial design concept was to have one Cell chip acting as the CPU for physics and geometry, and a second, specialized Cell-based chip acting as the pixel processor (GPU).
  • Cell-based GPU: This proposed second chip would have used a variation of the Cell's SPUs (Synergistic Processing Units) combined with fixed-function graphics hardware (like texture units and ROPs).
  • Shared Architecture: The goal was to have a unified architecture where the same coding principles for the CPU would apply to the GPU, offering significant "synergy" advantages and easing development.

Why it Changed:
  • Performance/Schedule Issues: Sony realized late in development that they could not get the Cell-based GPU to work at the desired performance level within their schedule.
  • Panic Move to NVIDIA: Realizing the Cell-only approach was not viable for graphics, they quickly partnered with NVIDIA to use a modified GeForce 7800, which became the Reality Synthesizer (RSX) GPU.
  • Loss of Synergy: Switching to a traditional, non-Cell GPU removed the planned, highly efficient "synergy" between the CPU and GPU, which contributed to the difficulty of developing for the PS3.
Consequently, the final PlayStation 3 was released with a single Cell Broadband Engine (containing one PPE and seven usable SPEs) and a separate, traditional NVIDIA RSX GPU
Click to expand...

Interesting. Didn't know that.

Just not getting this logic that PC vs console hinges on a single APU. Consoles have had APUs. So has PC. Consoles have had CPU/GPU. So has PC. I still don't get the point here at all.
 
Topher said:
Right, so they wanted Cell to effectively act as an APU but it couldn't so they added a separate GPU. There is actually more precedence in the history of consoles for separated CPU and GPU chips than there are APUs.
Click to expand...
My bad on 360. I only remembered the name Xenos and forgot about Xenon. Yep. Two separate packages.
 
Is Project Helix also supposed to be able to run applications like word processors, web browsers, and other general computing programs like the ones that can run in Windows/Linux/MacOS?
 
Topher said:
Interesting. Didn't know that.

Just not getting this logic that PC vs console hinges on a single APU. Consoles have had APUs. So has PC. Consoles have had CPU/GPU. So has PC. I still don't get the point here at all.
Click to expand...
Most laptops that aren't gaming are APUs. Most PC CPUs are an APU with the graphics processor on it now.

The lunacy around MS when it comes to their ambiguity is wild. We go through it every PR cycle, like clockwork.

Clanker edition:
Most modern PC CPUs, including nearly all AMD Ryzen 7000/9000 series and most Intel Core processors, now include integrated graphics (iGPUs), making them functionally accelerated processing units (APUs). While AMD historically uses the term "APU" for chips with stronger built-in graphics (like the 8700G), the distinction has blurred as basic integrated graphics become standard for daily tasks and display output.
 
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Rentahamster said:
Is Project Helix also supposed to be able to run applications like word processors, web browsers, and other general computing programs like the ones that can run in Windows/Linux/MacOS?
Click to expand...
According to Jez, yes. But we don't know for sure and we may never know for another year, unless Asha talks about all that at GDC (unlikely imo)
 
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viveks86 said:
According to Jez, yes. But we don't know for sure and we may never know for another year, unless Asha talks about all that at GDC
Click to expand...

I see. For those of us so concerned about definitions of words, I feel like any electronics device that can do general Personal Computing tasks to the same extent as our other mainstream Personal Computing devices has no problem also being designated a "PC".
 
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