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[Riky]

Performance isnt the only type of issue they can run in, massive pop-ins and second long frequent stutters would be among the problems they'd be facing due to low memory available. Those would not be acceptable for a release, unlike mere slowdowns to 20-15 fps.

I don't think the Devs have given that sort of detail of the problem have they? Since the game is running single player ok the resolution of the split screen makes the most sense to me personally, but it's all guesswork.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I don't think the Devs have given that sort of detail of the problem have they? Since the game is running single player ok the resolution of the split screen makes the most sense to me personally, but it's all guesswork.

Its not guesswork, those are the sorts of issue low memory available causes, if not straight up crashing the game.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Its not guesswork, those are the sorts of issue low memory available causes, if not straight up crashing the game.

It's most definitely a RAM issue on the S, especially for split-screen co-op.

Hence why there is no split-screen in HI.

Halo Infinite Dev Reveals More Info on Why Split-Screen Co-Op Was Canceled

A Halo Infinite developer reveals details about why 343 Industries canceled the split-screen co-op that some fans were anticipating.

gamerant.com

According to Sean Baron, Halo Infinite's local co-op had years of work put into it, but 343 Industries kept running into problems "from a technical perspective" that would cause crashes, glitches, and other issues. Baron doubled down on the fact that 343 Industries couldn't commit to getting Halo Infinite split-screen "from an 80% quality to a 100% quality" because the amount of effort required is too hard to gauge. Something that Baron points to as an issue outside the technological ones is the certification Halo Infinite would need to run local co-op for all the platforms that the game is available on which would present their own challenges as well.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Would they be allowed to scrap the feature entirely? For example remove split screen from XBOX series X then they would have feature parity?

No because of the parity clauses.
One clause is that games need feature parity between XSX and XSS, the other is that games need feature parity between Playstation versions and Xbox versions.
To release without split screen on XSX/XSS, Xbox demands that the PS5 version has no split screen also. Playstation versions can't release with more "content" than Xbox versions, that's why some games had free dlc on launch on Ps4.

 

[DeepEnigma]

No because of the parity clauses.
One clause is that games need feature parity between XSX and XSS, the other is that games need feature parity between Playstation versions and Xbox versions.
To release without split screen on XSX/XSS, Xbox demands that the PS5 version has no split screen also. Playstation versions can't release with more "content" than Xbox versions, that's why some games had free dlc on launch on Ps4.

Yep, that's the second part in the quote above,

Something that Baron points to as an issue outside the technological ones is the certification Halo Infinite would need to run local co-op for all the platforms that the game is available on which would present their own challenges as well.

 

[Topher]

It's most definitely a RAM issue on the S, especially for split-screen co-op.

Hence why there is no split-screen in HI.

Halo Infinite Dev Reveals More Info on Why Split-Screen Co-Op Was Canceled

A Halo Infinite developer reveals details about why 343 Industries canceled the split-screen co-op that some fans were anticipating.

gamerant.com

 

[Shut0wen]

I respect them for continuing split screen but split screen for a rpg? I just dont know who would use it

 

[DaGwaphics]

split screen is just one of many things that make dealing with the XSS memory annoying for devs but I'm glad that you have finally admitted it's a XSS issue because l in the other thread you were trying to blame it on some DX issue and I had a back and forth with you about how it is very likely to be the XSS.

What thread was that? Was I arguing that the XSS was definitely not the cause, or just that it wasn't the only possible cause?

 

[DaGwaphics]

Good on MS for creating the headache so they can provide that service.

There have been hardware manufactures that have provided far worse headaches and didn't provide these services.

Most developers can obviously handle the system on their own, but it's good that they offer this when it is needed.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I respect them for continuing split screen but split screen for a rpg? I just dont know who would use it

DOS2 was/is a hugely popular title to play in coop. I myself have 300 hours in it and every single minute was playing with other people.

 

[Three]

What thread was that? Was I arguing that the XSS was definitely not the cause, or just that it wasn't the only possible cause?

In the thread where I mentioned their issue is likely to be MS's lower powered box and everyone was making up some "universal API issue that might be affecting the XSX" or "concurrency issues in their code" to avoid the obvious big elephant in the room that is the XSS:

Considering they site technical issues it's more likely the price you pay for having a mandatory underpowered box.

He is obviously telling you no amount of "DirectX API" is going to save you from what this is likely to be. A hardware technical difficulty. i.e likely running this on specific specs. Even xbox first party abandoned their split screen support due to the difficulty they were having.

And instead of going with the logical difference between the X and S (hardware specs) you're suggesting there is some software (OS or API?) difference between the two which is an issue with splitscreen Co-op? I highly doubt that.

It's frankly absurd to suggest that hardware is ultimately not the reason for the difference but believe what you want. Doesn't necessarily have to mean "not powerful enough" in the end but can you tell me what would cause the "application level issue" between the X and S if it's not hardware related? Why would the application run into issues that differ between the two? Just one example would be great.

What's even more ridiculous is the broad assumption that the XSS has anything to do with the problem at all, LOL. It could just as easily be an issue with the XSX and this developers DX port. They never even state that it is a performance related issue, could be something more technical than that.

The minimum specs for the PC game is quite low tbh:

1. Processor: Intel Core i5-4690 / AMD FX-8350
2. Graphics card: Nvidia GeForce GTX 970 4 GB / AMD Radeon RX 480 4 GB.
3. DirectX version: 11
4. RAM: 8 GB
5. Disk space: 150 GB
6. Operating System: Windows 10 64-bit

Given the above, if they are having issues with series version it must be more an issue of their port itself rather than the raw hardware. It could literally be anything.

Because it's the logical conclusion when you look at what's presented. What DX issue that affects the XSX only would be present in split screen? Increased RAM requirement is a key issue when doing split screen.

I'm just glad we've now confirmed that this has everything to do with the Series S and not "an issue with the XSX and this developers DX port". Some of the replies in that thread were insufferable.

 

[DeepEnigma]

DOS2 was/is a hugely popular title to play in coop. I myself have 300 hours in it and every single minute was playing with other people.

Yep. That's the whole motif in the D&D universe, whether it's table top or couch parties. Always has been.

 

[DaGwaphics]

In the thread where I mentioned their issue is likely to be MS's lower powered box and everyone was making up some "universal API issue that might be affecting the XSX" or "concurrency issues in their code" to avoid the obvious big elephant in the room that is the XSS:














I'm just glad we've now confirmed that this has everything to do with the Series S and not "an issue with the XSX and this developers DX port". Some of the replies in that thread were insufferable.

Ok that's what I thought. I was saying that it "could be" something else, not that it necessarily was. In this case it wasn't something else, that is true.

 

[PendekarRajawali]

Just release it without split screen mode, I own all current gen consoles including XSS, as the owner of that little box, I would buy the PS5/XSX version if I want to play split screen. Nobody complained about the lack of RT in many games in XSS.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

You must be joking if you think Sony helping to optimise a game that they’ve pumped money in to, and will probably end up staying console exclusive, is in anyway comparable to MS having to go and assist third party devs to get a game running on their systems.

Same for Nintendo, who publish Game Freak’s games. Nintendo and Game Freak Co-own Pokémon. Game Freak are based in Nintendo offices.

So yeah, I’m not fucking joking but it sounds like you could be.

Does this seem fair? The only time it's important that a platform helps with development is when it's Microsoft, other occasions don't matter because it's not Microsoft is what I'm getting here.

 

[Banjo64]

Does this seem fair? The only time it's important that a platform helps with development is when it's Microsoft, other occasions don't matter because it's not Microsoft is what I'm getting here.

My observation is that it is not standard practice for Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft to help get a game running to an acceptable standard, although they do help to optimise games they are financially involved in.

I actually owned a Series S until a couple of months ago and was very happy with the performance in the most part. Gears 5 @ 120fps, FH 5 @ 60fps, MCC @ 120fps - I was impressed. Hogwarts Legacy and Elden Ring, I thought, were rough.

They’ve needed to help to get The Matrix demo and BG3 ready to go. Matt Booty has recently admitted there are ‘sharp corners’ to the Series S and that developers will be accustomed to it for their second game.

It’s not fair to say that the devs just need to get good. MS initially assured everyone that development would be very easy due to the tools.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

My observation is that it is not standard practice for Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft to help get a game running to an acceptable standard, although they do help to optimise games they are financially involved in.

I actually owned a Series S until a couple of months ago and was very happy with the performance in the most part. Gears 5 @ 120fps, FH 5 @ 60fps, MCC @ 120fps - I was impressed. Hogwarts Legacy and Elden Ring, I thought, were rough.

They’ve needed to help to get The Matrix demo and BG3 ready to go. Matt Booty has recently admitted there are ‘sharp corners’ to the Series S and that developers will be accustomed to it for their second game.

It’s not fair to say that the devs just need to get good. MS initially assured everyone that development would be very easy due to the tools.

Going by pc minimum requirements, Series S should be able to run it.

It is a big game though, and more platforms than Larian has handled before day 1.

I am sure Larian will eventually get it running, but IMO it's generous of MS to go and help them even if they are not contractually bound to do it. This will just speed up the release date.

Having played a ton of games on little box, most posters here will be eating crow once they will see game running on it. But of course they won't acknowledge it and simply point out frivolous issues with it like lower shadow details or something.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

My observation is that it is not standard practice for Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft to help get a game running to an acceptable standard, although they do help to optimise games they are financially involved in.

I actually owned a Series S until a couple of months ago and was very happy with the performance in the most part. Gears 5 @ 120fps, FH 5 @ 60fps, MCC @ 120fps - I was impressed. Hogwarts Legacy and Elden Ring, I thought, were rough.

They’ve needed to help to get The Matrix demo and BG3 ready to go. Matt Booty has recently admitted there are ‘sharp corners’ to the Series S and that developers will be accustomed to it for their second game.

It’s not fair to say that the devs just need to get good. MS initially assured everyone that development would be very easy due to the tools.

I think you're not appreciating how much back and forth there is between platform holders and game developers. All platforms have engineering teams and developer support, all working constantly on problems that are uncovered, optimising, etc.

I'm not blaming the hardware or the developers for this particular situation, but perhaps we ought to be looking at the literally thousands of games that run on Series S for evidence of what the system is capable of, rather than one game that hasn't been released on any platform.

 

[01011001]

It's most definitely a RAM issue on the S, especially for split-screen co-op.

Hence why there is no split-screen in HI.

Halo Infinite Dev Reveals More Info on Why Split-Screen Co-Op Was Canceled

A Halo Infinite developer reveals details about why 343 Industries canceled the split-screen co-op that some fans were anticipating.

gamerant.com

except there is splitscreen in the game, and it's playable from start to finish with only a few bugs, and bugs that clearly aren't memory related either.

that glitch showed just how close that mode is to being finished. just a few small issues like opening the map would need to he fixed. but fixing and polishing splitscreen coop doesn't make money, so they cancelled and focused on their Microtransactions... uhm I mean Multiplayer

 

[Banjo64]

I think you're not appreciating how much back and forth there is between platform holders and game developers. All platforms have engineering teams and developer support, all working constantly on problems that are uncovered, optimising, etc.

I’m sure that could be true, however it’s also true that I can’t remember a single game being delayed due to technical issues on only one of the two current main platforms.

I'm not blaming the hardware or the developers for this particular situation, but perhaps we ought to be looking at the literally thousands of games that run on Series S for evidence of what the system is capable of, rather than one game that hasn't been released on any platform.

They are outliers for sure (Mateix and BG) but that doesn’t mean they aren’t important. I’d also say it could spell trouble for the more ambitious games considering Microsoft envision this gen lasting until 2028.

 

[Fabieter]

DOS2 was/is a hugely popular title to play in coop. I myself have 300 hours in it and every single minute was playing with other people.

It was a huge part for us to like dos as well. Not that other parts weren't as great but the coop feature is awesome.

 

[hyperbertha]

Take a look at cancelled games, you will find a ton of them.

Which console do you own?

 

[vaibhavpisal]

I’d also say it could spell trouble for the more ambitious games considering Microsoft envision this gen lasting until 2028.

While I appreciate the concern, keep in mind, TOTK runs on Switch.

And Starfield is gonna be on Series S too. Seemingly without getting held back.

As far as ambition goes in current industry, Sony exclusives cost $200 million to make. What we are getting for that is visual polish and quality lip syncing and animations.

Am unable to imagine a situation where it will require Dev's to pare back ambition. All they are cutting down on system is ray tracing, resolution, in some cases frame rate. Something I don't associate with ambitious game design.

 

[StereoVsn]

Just release it without split screen mode, I own all current gen consoles including XSS, as the owner of that little box, I would buy the PS5/XSX version if I want to play split screen. Nobody complained about the lack of RT in many games in XSS.

They can't, read above. RT is graphical options that can be omitted, split screen co-op is a gameplay feature that runs into mandatory XSX-XSS feature parity as well as Xbox and PS parity. They would need to axe it altogether on both consoles and maybe even PC. Then they would need to release it as free DLC. It's way too much pain in the rear.

 

[sinnergy]

Ice team helps devs on Sony machines all the time .. I don’t see the big deal .

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Dat series S.

 

[Banjo64]

For anyone trying to claim this could be a Larian issue, they delivered a rock solid, fantastic Switch version of Divinity 2:

 

[Allandor]

I respect them for continuing split screen but split screen for a rpg? I just dont know who would use it

For a more or less round based rpg. Makes no sense at all, except they changed the gameplay, but than it wouldn't be a Baldurs gate main entry.

 

[flying_sq]

Could they just not release on Xbox?

 

[jroc74]

Minimum specs require 4 GB of VRAM and 8 GB system RAM. I don't know if that is enough to support split screen coop though.

Probably does. Minimum requirements for PC already call for more combined RAM than the XSS though. In any case, I imagine running on minimum specs and playing split screen coop isn't going to achieve the target Larian is aiming for with XSS. PC performance automatically has more variance than consoles.

Some of us tried to bring up PC games and the minimum requirements as a counter to "it just scales" before these consoles launched....

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

One can find a sequel to a game that the minimum requirements went up. Watch Dogs 1 to 2 is one small example. Some ppl need to realize there is a mountain of context to factor in when trying to compare console and PC gaming.

 

[Guilty_AI]

For a more or less round based rpg. Makes no sense at all, except they changed the gameplay, but than it wouldn't be a Baldurs gate main entry.

Even if its roundbased, you can still freely control characters around the world, even have one in combat while the other is talking to a bunch of villagers in the other side of the map.

In my playthroughs of Divinity OS2 with 2 other players, it was fairly common to have two scavenging different parts of the world in search of treasures, quests, etc; while the third was in town bartering.

 

[Hendrick's]

You must be joking if you think Sony helping to optimise a game that they’ve pumped money in to, and will probably end up staying console exclusive, is in anyway comparable to MS having to go and assist third party devs to get a game running on their systems.

Same for Nintendo, who publish Game Freak’s games. Nintendo and Game Freak Co-own Pokémon. Game Freak are based in Nintendo offices.

So yeah, I’m not fucking joking but it sounds like you could be.

You must have forgotten about Callisto Protocol and the team they sent to help optimize that game for PS5.

 

[damidu]

lol better invest in some permanent
“series shit emergency squad” to send all over the world for the games yet to come.
we are only starting

 

[Topher]

You must have forgotten about Callisto Protocol and the team they sent to help optimize that game for PS5.

Not true.

 

[Banjo64]

You must have forgotten about Callisto Protocol and the team they sent to help optimize that game for PS5.

One upcoming title that the division’s helped out on is The Callisto Protocol, with all of the cinematics being shot on location at Sony’s motion capture studio. And according to Michael Mumbauer, a former director and studio head at VASG, the collaboration runs deeper than that: “It wasn’t just the use of the mocap studio. [PlayStation] contributed quite a lot to cinematics and more. [It’s] going to be a banger.”

Again, doesn’t sound comparable at all to this situation.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

MS shot themselves in the foot with Series S

 

[cireza]

Which console do you own?

I own, or owned, every major console from Nintendo, Sega, Sony and Xbox, PS5 excepted. Also had Neo Geo AES/CDZ and a TurboDuo.

Completed a run of Asterix on Master System today, one of the best games of the console, as well as working around some pixel-art for a game I might develop for the system. Still not sure about making a MS game or another GG game instead.

What consoles do you have ? How is this relevant to anything ?

 

[hyperbertha]

I own, or owned, every major console from Nintendo, Sega, Sony and Xbox, PS5 excepted. Also had Neo Geo AES/CDZ and a TurboDuo.

Completed a run of Asterix on Master System today, one of the best games of the console, as well as working around some pixel-art for a game I might develop for the system. Still not sure about making a MS game or another GG game instead.

What consoles do you have ? How is this relevant to anything ?

Which consoles do you own this gen?

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

MS has two choices; either allow Series S owners to play a lesser version of a game, or to block a game from being released unless the game has all the featured desired for the entire Series ecosystem.

The issues is that giving Series S a lesser experience doesn't fly because it is the majority of their customer base. But to block a game from being released risk the third party game becomes a free Playstation exclusive, timed or not.

You might ask "what about the Switch!"? But Switch is just one SKU and people expect it to run worse than on non-portable hardware. There is no promise to break if it has missing features.

What about PC minimum requirements? There is nothing, and i mean NOTHING, blocking a PC release, even if the game is literally unplayable and crashes on launch.

Xbox created a problem that was the Series S and they had to live with it, the same way Sony created the Cell and had to live with that Horrible consequence.

 

[cireza]

Which consoles do you own this gen?

I answered : Xbox and Switch. And you ?

 

[Corndog]

I've owned every generation of Xbox consoles. Why would you even question that based on my post?

If you're a Series X owner and don't feel the least bit angered at the way this console is being treated then there is something wrong with you.

I asked because it’s better to ask then assume.

 

[mckmas8808]

It's not.



That engine is just full of technical debt, and they're adding layers upon layers of more code, content and complexity to it in Starfield. While I guess they've had 8 years to make improvements, I don't think Bethesda have ever prioritised flawless framerates over game complexity and graphical fidelity.

Put it like this, I guarantee the game won't even be a consistent 30 fps on Series X.

Starfield has been in development for 8 years?!

Lol that would not work out like you think it will. Gamepass would be worse, because Sony won’t allow it to compete with their regularly sold games, we would end up seeing timed exclusivity on the same platform, store exclusives, and no day 1 games. And at that point, why would we want it?
I like Gamepass because I don’t have to buy games. I’m still at 0 bought games on Xbox this generation. Gamepass without day 1 games would turn it into a LTTP service.

Man......the bolded is a HUGE problem. Do you not feel shame?

 

[Freelance Yakuza]

Series S is a good idea, but unfortunately, this kind of problem was bound to happen. I just hope that if a delay happens because of Series S, no one goes on social media complaining that a game was moneyhated by Sony.

 

[Physiognomonics]

I answered : Xbox and Switch. And you ?

The OG Xbox?

 

[cireza]

The OG Xbox?

The question was "this gen". This implies Series (X). Still don't know how it is related to anything though.

 

[Fredrik]

Man......the bolded is a HUGE problem. Do you not feel shame?

Shame? Nah it feels great!

For me it’s no different than listening to Metallica’s latest album on Spotify instead of buying a music CD.

Any consequence from bad economics will correct itself. It’s not my responsibility, the suits who make more money in a week than I do in a year just needs to do their job better if things aren’t working out. We’ve seen some tweaked economics lately, like movies sometimes going up first on iTunes before they end up on Netflix and like how preordering a collector’s edition game sometimes give you access to it earlier than Day 1™.

To be honest I have zero concerns, been gaming since early 80s, services come and go, platforms come and go, and I’m still gaming.

 

[darrylgorn]

Nvm this post, I was late to the Halo splitscreen party.

 

[mckmas8808]

Shame? Nah it feels great!

For me it’s no different than listening to Metallica’s latest album on Spotify instead of buying a music CD.

Any consequence from bad economics will correct itself. It’s not my responsibility, the suits who make more money in a week than I do in a year just needs to do their job better if things aren’t working out. We’ve seen some tweaked economics lately, like movies sometimes going up first on iTunes before they end up on Netflix and like how preordering a collector’s edition game sometimes give you access to it earlier than Day 1™.

To be honest I have zero concerns, been gaming since early 80s, services come and go, platforms come and go, and I’m still gaming.

WOW! Well......more power to you.

 

[Ansphn]

But they couldn't do that for Halo?

 

[lostinblue]

They can't. Ms forces feature parity.

what if the feature is 4K60?