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"Microsoft is laying off 10,000 people today, including in its gaming divisions such as Xbox and Bethesda."

Topher

Topher

Gold Member
octiny said:
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All these layoffs are just another reminder that these corporations are ultimately just soulless machines. The only people that matter are the stockholders. In a few years they will have more than likely rehired all 10k positions that they are letting go but stockholders want their higher margins now. It is what it is.

Hendrick's said:
Just because you can afford to pay people doesn't mean you should. If they overhired, which it looks like they did, that's something you can criticize. Laying off redundant or ineffective employees is something all businesses have to deal with to stay profitable.
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This is a cost cutting measure. Microsoft said flatly that this is about getting their expenses aligned with revenue. Has nothing to do with how effective these 10k are at their jobs or how needed the position is.
 
StreetsofBeige

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Topher said:
All these layoffs are just another reminder that these corporations are ultimately just soulless machines. The only people that matter are the stockholders. In a few years they will have more than likely rehired all 10k positions that they are letting go but stockholders want their higher margins now. It is what it is.



This is a cost cutting measure. Microsoft said flatly that this is about getting their expenses aligned with revenue. Has nothing to do with how effective these 10k are at their jobs or how needed the position is.
Click to expand...
Whether it's shitty workers, overhiring or bean counters getting their SG&A ratio in line by forcing to fire people just for the sake of it, it really comes down to some key things:

- When companies do layoffs, it's usually something like 10% or less. Unless a company is in dire straights needing to cut half the company to even stay afloat (Peloton), the cuts are minimal as a %

- Nobody should ever take for granted "Well, the company is super profitable, so it should guarantee me job security for life"

- Big companies give big severance. It's not as desperate as it seems because if the person can get rehired reasonably fast, you still get the severance. Depending on the person, the payout might lead to them retiring since they are 60 and just got a 12 month pay out kind of thing. When I got laid off 15 years ago, I got a job so fast (about 5 weeks) I gained a few months of bonus pay because my severance was around 3 months worth. So even in low end analyst roles where I only had a handful of years under my belt at the company, even I made out as a gainer in the situation. And I'm not even a high demand tech guy. For most big companies, 1 year of service roughly equals 3-4 weeks of pay out. I dont know what MS does though. Maybe its more, maybe they are cheaper, but it'll probably be around that amount

- If you're the one fired there's a reason. The company has to pick someone. If it's not easily identifiable who to fire, the CEO will tell each department to fire lets say 10% of your people. Go pick them and lets discuss and why. It'll likely be one of these factors: overpaid, bad worker/bad attitude, not a revenue generating role (support/paper pusher role), role not needed anymore, bosses think other people can cover your role. If anyone thinks companies firing people just random pull names out of a hat or pick the best workers to fire first, that's not how it works. ONe factor that can come into play too getting fired is seniority level where people with less tenure get fired first. But I doubt it applies here because MS isnt a unionized company.

(Random side note: Some people getting laid off may get severance with a clause saying they'll pay you out bit by bit for the term of duration. But as soon as you get rehired, you get cut off from the pay out. I have no idea how that works. Based on the honesty system? How would the former employer know you got rehired?)
 
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Topher

Topher

Gold Member
StreetsofBeige said:
- If you're the one fired there's a reason. The company has to pick someone. If it's not easily identifiable who to fire, the CEO will tell each department to fire lets say 10% of your people. Go pick them and lets discuss and why. It'll likely be one of these factors: overpaid, bad worker/bad attitude, not a revenue generating role (support/paper pusher role), role not needed anymore, bosses think other people can cover your role. If anyone thinks companies firing people just random pull names out of a hat or pick the best workers to fire first, that's not how it works
Click to expand...

For companies like this, if you need to be fired then you will be fired. They are not going to wait for 9,999 others needing to be laid off. 10k were laid off whether there was an individual "reason" or not. This is about cutting costs and anticipating recession. You can believe they went over and discussed each and every one of those 10k if you want, but I don't buy it for a second.
 
StreetsofBeige

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Topher said:
For companies like this, if you need to be fired then you will be fired. They are not going to wait for 9,999 others needing to be laid off. 10k were laid off whether there was an individual "reason" or not. This is about cutting costs and anticipating recession. You can believe they went over and discussed each and every one of those 10k if you want, but I don't buy it for a second.
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With so many people involved youre not going to get a detailed analysis across 10,000 people. But there will be some kind of methodology to it as much as possible. Then it might get a point they might just say anyone with low experience or high pay gets grilled. But there is no way HR and bosses just randomly pick 10,000 people to fire from their database.
 
Team Andromeda

Team Andromeda

Member
StreetsofBeige said:
With so many people involved youre not going to get a detailed analysis across 10,000 people. But there will be some kind of methodology to it as much as possible. Then it might get a point they might just say anyone with low experience or high pay gets grilled. But there is no way HR and bosses just randomly pick 10,000 people to fire from their database.
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HR is one of the dept that I bet will bare the brunt of the layoffs. Given all the studio acquisitions and MS will already have a sizable HR dept
 
Myths

Myths

Member
I wonder what specific sector was hit the most within: art, marketing/sales, or software development?
 
Topher

Topher

Gold Member
StreetsofBeige said:
With so many people involved youre not going to get a detailed analysis across 10,000 people. But there will be some kind of methodology to it as much as possible. Then it might get a point they might just say anyone with low experience or high pay gets grilled. But there is no way HR and bosses just randomly pick 10,000 people to fire from their database.
Click to expand...

No, I'm not saying it is random. I'm saying I don't buy this notion that there are legit individual "reasons" for each of the firings. Again, Microsoft has been clear: this is about cost cutting. 10k must go and that will include productive employees probably more so than dead weight.
 
twilo99

twilo99

Member
StreetsofBeige said:
Sony is still reducing it's employee count according to the chart. When Sony's divisions got more efficient and digital game sales and MTX took off for the PS division around 2016-2017, profits have rocketed back up like the old days. Yet the employee is still trending down.
Click to expand...

If this is true then someone at Sony knows how to run a corporation.. good for them!
 
Hendrick's

Hendrick's

If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Topher said:
All these layoffs are just another reminder that these corporations are ultimately just soulless machines. The only people that matter are the stockholders. In a few years they will have more than likely rehired all 10k positions that they are letting go but stockholders want their higher margins now. It is what it is.



This is a cost cutting measure. Microsoft said flatly that this is about getting their expenses aligned with revenue. Has nothing to do with how effective these 10k are at their jobs or how needed the position is.
Click to expand...
Of course it is a cost cutting measure, what else would it be? That said, you don't cut your critical staff first. These people won't be missed.
 
Interfectum

Interfectum

Member
Hendrick's said:
Of course it is a cost cutting measure, what else would it be? That said, you don't cut your critical staff first. These people won't be missed.
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Haha... No. This is what is called never wasting a good crisis.

Do you think the CEO handpicked all 10,000 to go? No, managers, supervisors, team leads, etc were all given marching orders for a list. The people on those lists may be non-critical workers, or the people on those lists may have been threats to said managers, friends / enemies with the wrong co-workers, etc. Tribalism in full effect here. This is not even mentioning the fact that these lists were no doubt filtered through the Human Resources departments to be sure the gender / minority count isn't going to raise red flags and, if they did, the lists had to be revised.

So yeah, there will be PLENTY of people missed at these tech companies.
 
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DaGwaphics

DaGwaphics

Member
It's really unrealistic to think that any successful corporation is going to keep underutilized staff onboard out of the goodness of their hearts. They wouldn't have ever been successful in the first place.

They added a lot of people when they needed them, now they likely don't need a lot of them as demand at their positions has reduced. They could afford to keep paying them, sure, but that isn't the way it is really ever going to go. That would be the same as retail shops keeping the holiday staff all year long, it ain't ever going to happen.
 
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dcx4610

dcx4610

Member
The best part of this is Microsoft made 130 BILLION DOLLARS in profit and they how much will cutting 10,000 people save them? 1 billion...

These are people's lives you are messing with. Never underestimate the power of Wall Street greed. Profit, profit, profit. Always growing, every quarter. If you are $1 less than the quarter before, the sky is falling and you need to layoff employees.
 
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Topher

Topher

Gold Member
DaGwaphics said:
It's really unrealistic to think that any successful corporation is going to keep underutilized staff onboard out of the goodness of their hearts. They wouldn't have ever been successful in the first place.

They added a lot of people when they needed them, now they likely don't need a lot of them as demand at their positions has reduced. They could afford to keep paying them, sure, but that isn't the way it is really ever going to go. That would be the same as retail shops keeping the holiday staff all year long, it ain't ever going to happen.
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There is nothing in any of this suggesting that the employees being laid off are "underutilized". As far as we know the vast majority are fully utilized, but that is irrelevant since Microsoft wants to align costs with revenue so that the margins make stockholders happy. Microsoft isn't evil for this. This is just how corporations work.

Now....throwing parties and making major acquisitions at the same time as laying these people off....is another story.
 
DaGwaphics

DaGwaphics

Member
Topher said:
There is nothing in any of this suggesting that the employees being laid off are "underutilized". As far as we know the vast majority are fully utilized, but that is irrelevant since Microsoft wants to align costs with revenue so that the margins make stockholders happy. Microsoft isn't evil for this. This is just how corporations work.

Now....throwing parties and making major acquisitions at the same time as laying these people off....is another story.
Click to expand...

I'd find it hard to believe that they added tens of thousands of workers during a boom period of high demand (and peak worker inefficiency due to work from home) and then weren't overstaffed when that boom collapsed (both in terms of demand and the efficiency gained from the end of lock downs). It's completely illogical to think otherwise, IMO. Not just from MS, but any of these companies that found themselves in similar situations. Companies that had mass hires during the pandemic are going to unload some of those workers now, though maybe not all. Hopefully the slack is picked up by the industries that were crushed by the pandemic and are now returning to full speed.
 
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freefornow

freefornow

Gold Member
Anyone know the employee count for 343i? Gamespot claiming one third of workforce at 343i being cut.
I have seen employee count from 500-750? Guess that fluctuates relative to development cycle?
Bethesda?
Just trying to get a sense of how many of the 10000 cuts relate to MS gaming in general.
 
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UltimaKilo

UltimaKilo

Gold Member
Topher said:
All these layoffs are just another reminder that these corporations are ultimately just soulless machines. The only people that matter are the stockholders. In a few years they will have more than likely rehired all 10k positions that they are letting go but stockholders want their higher margins now. It is what it is.



This is a cost cutting measure. Microsoft said flatly that this is about getting their expenses aligned with revenue. Has nothing to do with how effective these 10k are at their jobs or how needed the position is.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's called running a business. Investors don't like losing their hard earned money. These are not charities. Hard decisions have to be made in the shadow of a prolonged recession. Many more cuts to come.
 
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R

reksveks

Member
freefornow said:
Anyone know the employee count for 343i? Gamespot claiming one third of workforce at 343i being cut.
I have seen employee count from 500-750? Guess that fluctuates relative to development cycle?
Bethesda?
Just trying to get a sense of how many of the 10000 cuts relate to MS gaming in general.
Click to expand...
Link? Is this linked to the rumour about the single player dlc being cancelled cause that may have been debunked.

540 for most of last year, 520 last week based on the questionable LinkedIn numbers.

Separately I know people was raising the topic of unions, not sure the following was shared.

 
Topher

Topher

Gold Member
UltimaKilo said:
Yeah, it's called running a business. Investors don't like losing their hard earned money. These are not charities. Hard decisions have to be made in the shadow of a prolonged recession. Many more cuts to come.
Click to expand...

Doesn't change anything I said, but yes this all comes down to making decisions to maximize profit. Not about how hard anyone is working. Pretty much anyone is expendable for the sake of the stockholder's return on their investment.
 
freefornow

freefornow

Gold Member
James Sawyer Ford

James Sawyer Ford

Member


Office Space Reaction GIF

200.gif
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Office Space Movie GIF by hero0fwar
Angry Office Space GIF
 
Pelta88

Pelta88

Member
Phil Spencer's email to XBOX developers in full...

This has been a difficult week across Microsoft, and here, inside our teams. Now that many of the 1:1 and team conversations have happened, I want to take a moment to reiterate the message that you heard from your leaders.
This is a challenging moment in our business, and this week’s actions were painful choices. The Gaming Leadership Team had to make decisions that we felt set us up for the long-term success of our products and business, but the individual results of those decisions are real. I know that hurts. Thank you for supporting our colleagues as they process these changes.
Over the coming weeks we will have many opportunities to connect and answer your questions, including the Monthly Gaming Update next week for teams who attend that meeting, and I am in close contact with teams at ZeniMax to provide support. The GLT and I are committed to being as transparent as we can. Moving forward with ambiguity is challenging, but I am confident that together, we will get through this difficult moment in time.
Xbox has a long history of success thanks to the work you do in service of players, creators, and each other. Your work is so deeply appreciated and valued in these times of change and is integral to our business momentum. I am confident in our future and proud to be part of this team, but also conscious that this is a challenging time and I want to thank you for everything you do here.
Phil
Click to expand...
 
UltimaKilo

UltimaKilo

Gold Member
Topher said:
Doesn't change anything I said, but yes this all comes down to making decisions to maximize profit. Not about how hard anyone is working. Pretty much anyone is expendable for the sake of the stockholder's return on their investment.
Click to expand...
That's it. Albeit, some people are more expendable than others.
 
StreetsofBeige

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
dcx4610 said:
The best part of this is Microsoft made 130 BILLION DOLLARS in profit and they how much will cutting 10,000 people save them? 1 billion...

These are people's lives you are messing with. Never underestimate the power of Wall Street greed. Profit, profit, profit. Always growing, every quarter. If you are $1 less than the quarter before, the sky is falling and you need to layoff employees.
Click to expand...
MS has never made $130 billion profits in a year. Their current trend is roughly $70 billion.

Never the less, nobody should feel entitled to a guaranteed job. It makes no difference if the company is barely afloat or Apple (who makes even more profit than MS).

Problem is people think that just because a company is successful they should be obligated to get a job for life. You dont even get that kind of guarantee in unionized government jobs who have bottomless pockets where every annual red deficit is brushed off as a non factor.

So to expect a profit orientated company to grant job security to every employee is silly. If somebody cant make the cut being among the 95.5% of employees kept (4.5% of employees were fired 10,000 / 221,000), the employee has issues if 19 out of every 20 people were kept on the payroll. Just get another job. When I got laid off 15 years ago during a divisional restructuring, I was an analyst making $50,000 and got another job 5 weeks later. If a finance guy like me can get a new job, a tech worker should be able to too. Finance isnt even the kind of career that's ever been one of those "The economy says finance jobs are in super high demand". And during that time I wasn't making tech worker salaries or getting a giant severance package as I was only there about 3 years.

People got to suck it up, get another job, and most importantly budget for a rainy day. Even though I wasnt making great money and basically living paycheque to paycheque I still had enough money saved to cover months worth of costs before going to mom and dad for a loan or activating a bunch of money from a line of credit. That's because I lived in a tiny condo and drove a Civic. $50,000 only gets you so far when I probably only cleared about $38,000 after taxes. I bet any money any tech worker in a cash crunch from a firing despite making good money probably blows all their money on great gear and cars, so they are in desperation mode whining and pouting. If not, just get a different job like I did.
 
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Banjo64

Banjo64

cumsessed
Pelta88 said:
Phil Spencer's email to XBOX developers in full...
Click to expand...
What a nothing statement - that’s some fluff 101.

I want to take a moment to reiterate the message that you heard from your leaders.

This is a challenging moment in our business, and this week’s actions were painful choices. The Gaming Leadership Team had to make decisions that we felt set us up for the long-term success of our products and business

‘Your leaders’ is an odd choice of words. Not how I’d want to be addressed in a climate of redundancy.

How does sacking 10k people set Xbox up for long term success. Would be interesting to get some details, rationale etc.
 
SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Banjo64 said:
How does sacking 10k people set Xbox up for long term success. Would be interesting to get some details, rationale etc.
Click to expand...
The layoffs in the gaming division which is struggling to put out games is very troubling. They should be going on hiring sprees. They should be outbidding everyone and attracting talent. This will push them away.

Especially after the awful 2020 and 2022 they just had where they released a total of ZERO AAA games in 2 out of the last 3 years despite owning 24 studios.
 
anthony2690

anthony2690

Banned
twilo99 said:



is dis tru???
Click to expand...
Wow that sucks, it suddenly makes Microsoft not look so bad in comparison.
I do feel a lot of console warriors have been relishing the news of Microsoft firing 10k employees sadly and have enjoyed using it to dunk on Xbox what is pretty sad, as many have had the rug swept from under them and lost their livelihoods.

Also if anyone knows, please only reply if you actually know or have real knowledge, but how do they choose who they would sack? I would think it would be a last in, first out, but some of people I've seen sacked have been there 24 years, would they get a big severance package? (As when my uncle left the BBC after 25 years he got a pretty big payout)
 
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dorkimoe

dorkimoe

Member
microsoft and Google the same week; the future is really grim. It’s never the managers who make the decisions that lead them to having to do this
 
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LordCBH

LordCBH

Member
dorkimoe said:
microsoft and Google the same week; the future is really grim. It’s never the managers who make the decisions that lead them to having to do this
Click to expand...

Wait till ai and automation advance far enough. The dream for these megacorps is to ultimately cut 75% of their workforce in favor of machines that don’t pee, don’t need Christmas off, and don’t get sick.
 
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