Support NeoGAF

[D-ray]

So in recent years I took the bad habit of collecting achievements in games (everyone has one, so give me a break, you might be a smoker for all I know), and although sometimes they make me question the actual design behind them due to them being too exaggerated or just non-logical, one particular category stood more than the others:

Multiplayer Achievements

Before starting, keep in mind that the context I'll use do not include cheating. And by that, I mean using SAM (Steam Achievement Managers) or any other hack that let's you get the achievements instantly without even playing.

So, Multiplayer Achievements. You know, those classic "Kill x number of enemies in one game" or "Do a certain combo for this" etc...
Like, what's even the point in them?

Main reason is that most of them are just time consuming and/or VERY situational, to the point that there is no REAL challenge in unlocking them. Just lots of time spent waiting for the planets to align and give you the opportunity to grab it.

Example N.1

​

Team Fortress 2 has this achievement called "The Great Deflate" which consists in killing 79 enemies who wear a specific cosmetic that can only be seen under a specific circumstance (Pyroland).

Like, who would even try to wear (and pay because they can also be bought with real money) a cosmetic that most people (including you) can't even see?
And even if someone had it, which is extremely rare on it's own, you have to find 79 other players to get the achievement.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Some of you might say that multiplayer achievements can add extra time to a game, and give more reasons to the player to play it even more.
Plus, not all achievements are so specific, they might just ask you (as I listed earlier) something like doing a certain combo or killing a certain amount of players.

And, here strikes the second reason: you can pretty much ASK someone to help you get it.

Example N.2

​

Serious Sam HD: The First Encounter has this achievement called "Untouchable" which consists in winning 4 player death match by reaching frag limit of at least 25 without dying.

So, what would actually stop you from getting three more friends to meet in a server and just grind the achievement together? Or hell, they don't even have to be friends in the first place, even three complete strangers.
Again, what's even the challenge in it if a random dude can ask you to help him out with that achievement?
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And at last, maybe you might say that you can just do them as they were intended to be.
Sure... but what if the game is not even supported anymore? What if servers of said game are COMPLETELY empty or not even existing anymore?

I don't think you really need an example, but pretty much most "dead" multiplayer games who have achievements, have them almost completely un-achieveable.
Maybe Overwatch for instance since they recently took down the servers.

​

"Undying" is pretty much similar to "Untouchable" but since the game is not supported anymore, you can't join a server and get it. Therefore, un-achieveable.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In conclusion, if there's no challenge, no "anti-cheap way" to get them, and no chance to get them in the first place if the game servers are down:
What's even the point of doing them?

Just put achievements on the single player side and call it a date. If a multiplayer game needs achievements to attract and give the player a reason to play further, that means it ain't that good of a multiplayer game (atleast, according to me).

So, guys and gals, what do YOU think about multiplayer achievements? This is what I think, but maybe you have a reason to prove me wrong or not. I'll gladly hear your thoughts about it, even if you are not an active achievement hunter!

 

[TexMex]

Isn’t Team Fortress 2 a multiplayer only game? What kind of achievements would even exist if not multiplayer ones?

 

[D-ray]

Isn’t Team Fortress 2 a multiplayer only game? What kind of achievements would even exist if not multiplayer ones?

None. So don't make them?

For "singleplayer achievements" I meant those games who have like a campaign other than a multiplayer part (like Doom 2016).

 

[HTK]

I'm willing to argue Trophies/Achievements in general are a huge waste of time and don't provide you with anything other than busy work.

 

[trikster40]

Yeah I hate MP achievements. I wish they’d do two trophy lists for games: one for single player and one for multiplayer. That way, I can get 100% on my single player game and, if I choose to play multiplayer, get a second 100%.

 

[D-ray]

I'm willing to argue Trophies/Achievements in general are a huge waste of time and don't provide you with anything other than busy work.

Mmmh... depends. As for those grindy ones you are right.
But some games are well designed, even on the achievement side, and they provide an extra challenge that didn't need to be programmed in the game.

 

[Captain Toad]

A quality trophy list is an art. The good ones can enhance the game's strengths. I can't say a definitive "online trophies are always bad". It depends on the game.

I consider poor trophies the ones no one would ever do anyway or have you doing things that go against why you're playing that game in the first place.

I'm playing Final Fantasy IX. Great game. Terrible trophy list. Whoever thought making a trophy for doing 1000 straight jumps in the dumb jump rope mini-game should never be allowed to design achievements again.

 

[Topher]

I'm fine with online trophies, but it should be a different list and not mixed in with SP trophies.

I'm willing to argue Trophies/Achievements in general are a huge waste of time and don't provide ME with anything other than busy work.

ftfy. For me, it is an additional challenge. But I know folks like yourself who don't care for them so it is a good thing they are entirely optional.

 

[D-ray]

A quality trophy list is an art. The good ones can enhance the game's strengths. I can't say a definitive "online trophies are always bad". It depends on the game.

True, but I've yet have met a game that has good online achievements...

 

[Fart Knight]

Try and be the nr1 player in GRAW today.

 

[Mr Hyde]

I remember PS360 era had tons of tacked on MP trophies along with tacked on multiplayer online in singleplayer games. I never engaged with that shit, just awful game design and trend chasing.

 

[D-ray]

I'm fine with online trophies, but it should be a different list and not mixed in with SP trophies.

Yeah that would be a good thing to "help" achievement hunters, but at that point: why bother making them?
That's the point of my opinion. Just, why making them if people either ignore them or just "cheese" them?

 

[D-ray]

Try and be the nr1 player in GRAW today.

That might be hard, but it would be easier with some fellas helping you by just being bullet sponges.

 

[Fart Knight]

That might be hard, but it would be easier with some fellas helping you by just being bullet sponges.

In the world

 

[TexMex]

None. So don't make them?

Well, if you’re going to be that reductive, achievements are entirely optional and don’t impact your game in any way, so just don’t engage with or pay any attention to them.

 

[TexMex]

I'm playing Final Fantasy IX. Great game. Terrible trophy list. Whoever thought making a trophy for doing 1000 straight jumps in the dumb jump rope mini-game should never be allowed to design achievements again.

It’s insane to do normally. If you’re interested, you can glitch this really easily after a bit of set up with remote play.

 

[Topher]

Yeah that would be a good thing to "help" achievement hunters, but at that point: why bother making them?
That's the point of my opinion. Just, why making them if people either ignore them or just "cheese" them?

If there are enough online gamers who enjoy online trophies then I'd say make them separate. But if they are largely ignored then yeah, just stop making them.

 

[Faust]

Firstly it is important to note that much do TF2s lists were designed as patches and to be obtained primarily during their heyday. I had gotten most of them without trying back when I still played the game years ago. Nowadays? They are a pain in the ass.

As for MP in general - they are there to force collectors and hunters to play and populate the online modes. Seriously… achievements from Gears of War is a great example. They aren’t hard - just time consuming.

I have mostly just ignored any MP trophy/achievement list as they are not fun and actively diminish the game for me. There are a few that actively give me new challenges while having fun/giving me an opportunity to learn a character better (Dead by Daylight for example), but they are few and far between.

These days I mostly stick with retroachievements and single player games. Far less frustrating.

 

[D-ray]

In the world

Oh well.
That is indeed a f*cked up achievement requirement if you ask me.

One person grabs the achievement because is top 1, and the others can sniff yer butt crack because they can't.

Well, if you’re going to be that reductive, achievements are entirely optional and don’t impact your game in any way, so just don’t engage with or pay any attention to them.

Sure, but even if they are optional, they (mostly) have a logic and reason to grab them. Either to replay the game or have a challenge.
Multiplayer ones have literally no reason to be considered for the same things.

 

[HTK]

I'm fine with online trophies, but it should be a different list and not mixed in with SP trophies.



ftfy. For me, it is an additional challenge. But I know folks like yourself who don't care for them so it is a good thing they are entirely optional.

I have 3 platinums since they've released tophies. My gripe with them is how lazy the challenges are, to the point where most of them are time wasters while some are actually very cool. If we could have more interesting trophy challenges that don't feel like time wasters I would actually do more Platinum runs. I think most would agree.

 

[D-ray]

Firstly it is important to note that much do TF2s lists were designed as patches and to be obtained primarily during their heyday. I had gotten most of them without trying back when I still played the game years ago. Nowadays? They are a pain in the ass.

As for MP in general - they are there to force collectors and hunters to play and populate the online modes. Seriously… achievements from Gears of War is a great example. They aren’t hard - just time consuming.

I have mostly just ignored any MP trophy/achievement list as they are not fun and actively diminish the game for me. There are a few that actively give me new challenges while having fun/giving me an opportunity to learn a character better (Dead by Daylight for example), but they are few and far between.

Cool a stuff member in my first thread.

I mean, yeah, about TF2 I even recall some "Youtube Achievements" that are literally un-achievable because how the site changed. Soo... dumb.

These days I mostly stick with retroachievements and single player games. Far less frustrating.

Pretty much me basically.

 

[64bitmodels]

I'm willing to argue Trophies/Achievements in general are a huge waste of time and don't provide you with anything other than busy work.

There ain't much of a point to them but they make you feel good for playing the game and that's all they gotta do. I like flexing my achievements and comparing which friends have which.

 

[D-ray]

There ain't much of a point to them but they make you feel good for playing the game and that's all they gotta do. I like flexing my achievements and comparing which friends have which.

Damn feels good to be "Unstoppable".

(this achievement sucks by the way, but it's so cool to have it)

 

[BusierDonkey]

I wish they would separate multi player and single player achievements. I have so many games that I have 100% of the single player achievements but only have an 80% completion overall because a couple things are tied to a shoehorned-in multiplayer mode.

How am I supposed to impress the ladies if I don't have 100% in my games?

 

[HiFiVideogameMusic]

They exists to make people like us suffer.

 

[Topher]

I have 3 platinums since they've released tophies. My gripe with them is how lazy the challenges are, to the point where most of them are time wasters while some are actually very cool. If we could have more interesting trophy challenges that don't feel like time wasters I would actually do more Platinum runs. I think most would agree.

I follow. I agree a lot of them are not well thought out. I have 20 something platinums but I check out the trophy list each time to decide if I think it is worth it. Take Psychonauts 2. I'm not about to spend hours collecting all those figments. Just doesn't seem fun at all. Now Mass Effect Legendary Edition was great for trophies. Got three plats, one for each game as well as the Insanity difficulty trophy. So definitely agree a lot of games should put more effort into their trophies.

 

[Jeeves]

For the same reason any achievements exist: To serve as an acknowledgment if you happen to do something cool or unlikely while you're playing. Not the game's fault if you're compelled to go out of your way to get them on purpose.

 

[Fahdis]

They exists to make people like us suffer.

Came here to post this. Not disappointed.

 

[D-ray]

For the same reason any achievements exist: To serve as an acknowledgment if you happen to do something cool or unlikely while you're playing. Not the game's fault if you're compelled to go out of your way to get them on purpose.

Uhm... yeah pretty much.
But why pressing on the "100% completion" or "platinum" whole thing if achievements are just there for when you'll eventually and/or randomly happen to get them?

Maybe it was like you just said before, but now achievements are (for some people) a badge of honor that you need to earn. You don't just get them because reasons (and that's pretty much why people hate those achievements that require you to do things that you'll eventually do in game without even trying).

 

[Captain Toad]

True, but I've yet have met a game that has good online achievements...

Well, if it's primarily an offline game, but has an online model, I consider a sensible trophy would be to just try the online mode. "Play 3 matches of X mode", etc.

 

[D-ray]

Well, if it's primarily an offline game, but has an online model, I consider a sensible trophy would be to just try the online mode. "Play 3 matches of X mode", etc.

Yeah I guess that's ok for a reason. I remember BattleBlock Theater giving you an achievement for completing the entire game with someone in co-op. It wasn't really such a big challenge, but still fun and interesting to show off how good you are at teamwork or something.

Now that think about it, co-op achievements CAN have a logic. Since you are going to do them with someone in the first place, and the challenge would be to cooperate in the best way. Plus, you don't need servers to achieve them.

However, not many multiplayer games have a co-op mode (or maybe achievements for said mode), so... let's say it's a small exception.

 

[Jeeves]

Uhm... yeah pretty much.
But why pressing on the "100% completion" or "platinum" whole thing if achievements are just there for when you'll eventually and/or randomly happen to get them?

Maybe it was like you just said before, but now achievements are (for some people) a badge of honor that you need to earn. You don't just get them because reasons (and that's pretty much why people hate those achievements that require you to do things that you'll eventually do in game without even trying).

It's true the culture surrounding them has become more what you described. My impression of them when they first came to be was as I said, just a little acknowledgement of something that may or may not occur while you play the game normally. But yes it would be dishonest of me to ignore that the audience began to treat it like a checklist of things one must do, and the developers/platform holders started to intentionally play into that more and more. At least that's my perception of how it went down.

So now it's a little perplexing to me when I see achievement hunters being angry about games that follow the other philosophy of achievements, where not everyone is expected to get every achievement and that's okay. When someone takes a game like that and responds like "why do they do this to us?" it does elicit the "no one's holding a gun to your head" response.

 

[Unrivaledx88]

Bc ppl play online Multiplayer ? Why does it matter not everyone plays single player. Dont need to get every trophy.

 

[bender]

Most Achievements were implemented without much thought in the first place which is a byproduct of them being mandatory. Far more interesting would have been to incorporate stat tracking systems like found in the early 3D GTA games except at a system level. You could have really fun stuff like how many times you've died across all of your games, how many bullets shots, etc.

 

[D-ray]

So now it's a little perplexing to me when I see achievement hunters being angry about games that follow the other philosophy of achievements, where not everyone is expected to get every achievement and that's okay.

I personally hate and like that philosophy.
Because some games give you achievements that just require knowledge and skill that you gain through the gameplay (like the ones in Crash Bandicoots N.sane Trilogy for instance), but others are just extremely time consuming or even worst: RNG DEPENDANT. Like to get them you don't need to be the best, but just the... luckiest...
It defeats the entire point of a challenge.

When someone takes a game like that and responds like "why do they do this to us?" it does elicit the "no one's holding a gun to your head" response.

I heavily agree on that. In fact, if the achievement is stupid, or just not even worth because how exaggerated it is, I just call it quit and play something else instead. Doing the crybaby because you can't get that hard achievement because is too hard is hypocritical. Keep in mind that by "hard" I always mean in terms of game play, not time spent or RNG involved.

 

[D-ray]

Bc ppl play online Multiplayer ? Why does it matter not everyone plays single player. Dont need to get every trophy.

Yeah but... as I said, what's the point if they can be cheesed out and made them meaningless?
So if you don't need to get every achievement/trophy, and it's stupid to get them, what's the point of making them in the first place?

Most Achievements were implemented without much thought in the first place which is a byproduct of them being mandatory. Far more interesting would have been to incorporate stat tracking systems like found in the early 3D GTA games except at a system level. You could have really fun stuff like how many times you've died across all of your games, how many bullets shots, etc.

Well a lot of game still do that (as far as I played them).

 

[bender]

Well a lot of game still do that (as far as I played them).

Indeed but viewing those stats at a system level and being able to combine/compare those stats across games would be far more interesting than achievements.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

It’s insane to do normally. If you’re interested, you can glitch this really easily after a bit of set up with remote play.

This only reinforces the point, though. Resorting to glitches to get an achievement that is incredibly dumb to begin with.
Generally speaking, I think retroactively shoehorning achievements in old games is stupid.

On topic, I hated so much that a game like Puppeteer had a ton of multiplayer achievements. Playing through the whole thing by myself was enough, imagine doing it again with an unknowing friend.

 

[TexMex]

This only reinforces the point, though. Resorting to glitches to get an achievement that is incredibly dumb to begin with.
Generally speaking, I think retroactively shoehorning achievements in old games is stupid.

Personally, I don’t think it does at all. I’m fine with some trophies being insanely difficult. I don’t think the ability for every person to get every achievement is necessary at all. I love those trophies that have an insane rarity. I like the hard multiplayer ones too. I like platinums forever locked when servers close down after years. Everybody’s Golf being a recent example. I like the meta rat race. It’s all optional and takes nothing away from the game if people deem it not worth engaging with.

Was just offering a means to get this particular one by cheating if it was really important to you.

 

[mitch1971]

As someone who likes trophies, I've had this conversation a few times. And to this day, nobody has replicated (afaik) the way in which ME3 implemented their single and MP trophies. An example of this is that several trophies had an either/or stipulation: Get to max rank in SP or max rank in MP to achieve the same trophy. This allowed those invested in which ever part they wanted to enjoy the most, while making it possible for all the get the plat.

 

[Edgelord79]

I'm willing to argue Trophies/Achievements in general are a huge waste of time and don't provide you with anything other than busy work.

They now also now provide you with better Customer service on some platforms.

 

[yamaci17]

wait until u see payday 2 achivements lol

 

[Gamezone]

I'm willing to argue Trophies/Achievements in general are a huge waste of time and don't provide you with anything other than busy work.

Like games?

 

[Damigos]

Because fak them, thats why

 

[Unrivaledx88]

Yeah but... as I said, what's the point if they can be cheesed out and made them meaningless?
So if you don't need to get every achievement/trophy, and it's stupid to get them, what's the point of making them in the first place?

Well a lot of game still do that (as far as I played them).

I mean yea they probably can be cheesed, but im sure the probability of ppl cheesing it is so low that it doesnt matter,
And im sure same can be done with single player trophies.

Regardless if i think its dumb or not to get every trophy, there are ppl that enjoy trying to get most or all trophies. So i guess thats the point of making them.
Pretty much for replayability

 

[Black_Stride]

Some games are well designed, even on the achievement side, and they provide an extra challenge that didn't need to be programmed in the game.

Some multiplayer modes are well designed, even on the achievement side, and they provide an extra challenge that didn't need to be programmed in the game.

 

[D-ray]

Some multiplayer modes are well designed, even on the achievement side, and they provide an extra challenge that didn't need to be programmed in the game.

For instance? I can only think of co-op in that regard, but maybe you know more.

 

[hlm666]

They exist to make people trying to play the game normally rage quit when their team mates are doing obscure shit for an achievement.

 

[AV]

"Main reason is that most of them are just time consuming and/or VERY situational, to the point that there is no REAL challenge in unlocking them."

That's 99% of all "achievements" in video games. They're not achievements at all, they're little notifications designed to give you a very brief serotonin boost and hook you on catching 'em all.

Exact same formula that makes mobile games popular, yet people on forums will shit all over those while driving a car in circles for hours in Dead Rising just to "achieve" something.

 

[crackajack]

I'm willing to argue Trophies/Achievements in general are a huge waste of time and don't provide you with anything other than busy work.

The same can be said about gaming itself.