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TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
In terms of the SDK perhaps
M1chl
is right and there's less room for improvement, because the mature toolset from PS4 has been ported over.That said, there's a lot of code in the SDK and OS software stack that has a lot of room for improvement because it's couldn't have been ported over from PS4, i.e. the compilers and hardware driver software layers.
These will be very early software for both MS and Sony. AMD would have provided these initially, and MS and Sony would be working over time to further optimise them and iron out bugs.
PS5 hardware is new hardware. It would be a mistake to think the first batch of compiler and driver software for it would be perfectly optimized and bug free. In the world of software development this never happens.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Optimalise, with how it's called on very low level, because it's calls are build in into the driver itself (Sony build). On PS4 at least it's a yourCode > Driver > GPU, on Xbox you have yourCode > Direct x > Title OS kernel > GPU
Sony solution is efficient as hell, something akin to Metal on Apple devices, which can run big games on iPad GPUs (M1 macbooks). Sony has this sort of approach like Apple when it comes to whole parformance stack. That's why it's pretty amazing what they were able to do with BC. Also Sony engineers themselves doing the driver for the APU, MS in Title OS is using AMD one.
This is what I meant with what I quoted myself, in more neat articulated way.In terms of the SDK perhaps
That said, there's a lot of code in the SDK and OS software stack that has a lot of room for improvement because it's couldn't have been ported over from PS4, i.e. the compilers and hardware driver software layers.
These will be very early software for both MS and Sony. AMD would have provided these initially, and MS and Sony would be working over time to further optimise them and iron out bugs.
PS5 hardware is new hardware. It would be a mistake to think the first batch of compiler and driver software for it would be perfectly optimized and bug free. In the world of software development this never happens.
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TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Almost every post I've read there doesn't seem to make a distinction between the latency of GDDR and DDR. Since GDDR is based on DDR3 cells, the latency should be pretty similar. The consensus in that discussion seems to be that DRAM (i.e. both DDR and GDDR) latency isn't great, hence why CPUs use caches.
Am I missing something?
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
How does a person's investment in the Xbox ecosystem pay off with this deal when the games made by Bethesda would have come to Xbox anyway?
ErRor88
Member
IMO, it will make the games better optimized for Xbox and will kill the narrative from Sony fans that say "Xbox got no games".
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I'll also never understand why people post that kind of shit here in the first place. We have more than enough brain dead opinions from the user's on this forum, we don't need non-users random conversational tweets.
Those games would still be on Xbox regardless.
This investment will only pay off in a few years when MS funded games start development under the new studios
kyliethicc
Member
"Videogame companies often sell hardware at thin margins or even at a loss because they profit from lucrative game software and recurring online subscription services. Sony’s Chief Executive Officer Kenichiro Yoshida has said the business should be judged by the number of active users, not the number of hardware units sold. Some Sony games staff think it should sell the new console at a loss if necessary to match Microsoft’s price, while other Sony executives would prefer to make money as the company did with the PS4."
Sony Is Struggling With PlayStation 5 Price Due to Costly Parts
Scarce components have pushed the manufacturing costs for Sony Corp.’s next PlayStation to around $450 per unit, forcing a difficult price-setting decision in its battle with Microsoft Corp., according to people with knowledge of the matter.
www.bloomberg.com
"Kenichiro Yoshida mentioned that more than half of the sales for the Game and Network Services sales in the current fiscal year will be coming from the network. Hardware sales are still important, but the number of monthly active users is getting more relevant, alongside PlayStation Plus subscribers and how much time they spend on Sony’s services and consoles. Therefore, according to Yoshida-san, the axis is shifting from hardware to user base."
Sony Talks Shift From Hardware to Monthly Active Users; Plans to Explore Microtransactions
Sony Executives talk about the shift of the business model from hardware units to monthly active users, and the possible exploration of microtransactions.
www.dualshockers.com
Sony is becoming less focused on selling x number of consoles and more focused on maximizing revenue per user. Of course they want to sell lots of hardware. But the money is in the software and services. The PS5 is sold at a loss rn. Also, most console owners just buy consoles. They have no interest in buying a PC. They'll be fine. Millions (like me) will just buy a PS5 (because I want one.)
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
I am software dev, I had this sort of thing on High School, however for my experience the whole architecture is build for purpose. However let's say without materials the difference in technology is less of point to be focused on, it's much more about when you have one memory bus, you cannot simply do one thing without affecting the other, if it would be 2 GDDR pools, this whole situation would not exist. The issue is shared pool, with two completely different type of data which you having there, it's always a trade of what you can do, what you would prioritize and so on. Yes there was and maybe still is an effort for UMA type memory, however the industry if anything is moving away from it so UMA is used for cost-effective solutions, not neccessarily for high-power application.
Rea
Member
Huh?
kyliethicc
Member
Millions of people like me will never switch to PC gaming. I have no interest in using that fucking trash Windows or dealing with drivers. Even if the hardware became priced at better values.. still no thanks.
Consoles are like smartphones, somewhat specifically iPhones. Many millions love the ease of use. I turn it on, use it, easy. Sure, PCs have lots of potential utility and can be quite powerful, but its not appealing to me. My PS4 (and my iPhone) just works with minimal effort. And so I'll get another one.
My only concern about Sony porting to PC is if it were to become an automatic rule, "all games must, etc" because it would kinda defeat the purpose of building custom hardware and giving devs a closed fixed platform to dev for. If it doesn't affect the game dev, I don't care. But its a legit concern because it could. We all want those AAA next gen games that use the PS5's specs to its max potential. Showcase titles.
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azertydu91
Hard to Kill
Garani
Member
We are talking Bethesda here. Like Fallout 76, people?
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
And Sony is starting to realize this.
And anyone who would abandon Playstation for PC, is probably not a big buyer of 3rd party games on Playstation. I just don't see how that's a large segment. It's probably more likely that they'd lose a decent amount of dual-owners, people who own PCs and then also buy Playstations for exclusive games only, than they would lose a lot of people currently buying a Playstation to play Sony games + COD + FIFA + Fortnite, etc.
They are of course being cautious; and they'll experiment. They are unlikely to be day and date PC any time soon. But if their swath of upcoming older PS4 games does well on PC, and PS5 continues to do well. and their polling suggests the money made selling to PC gamers who were never buying playstations is less than the money lost to gamers abandoning it to stay on or buy PCs.. they may eventually release all games on PC, with either short exclusivity windows, or day and date.
Particularly if they eventually have enough PC games to justify having their own storefront on PC. Or if their ownership in Epic grows enough to where EGS essentially becomes part of their "ecosystem."
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DarkMage619
$MSFT
Those games might not have been on Gamepass day 1 and those IPs will all add to the value of the Xbox brand. Insomniac games would have also been on PlayStation regardless but Sony still bought the studio. The talent is what really adds value.
That's their only IP? What are you implying?
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Ass of Can Whooping
Member
That the buyout isn't going to magically make Bethesda better at optimising their buggy ass games
kyliethicc
Member
Overall I agree. To add on this point, I think it will just depend on each game. They're not gonna be like Xbox and 1) make all games go over or 2) make all games that do go on PC be on day 1 either. They'll be more flexible.
Funny thing is...
Predator Hunting Grounds
- April 2020 release
- Sony published 1st party game
- PS4 and PC on day 1
- $40 multiplayer budget game
Buuuuttt no one cared cause the game sucked lol.
Rea
Member
Buying 3rd party devs and Buying 3rd party publishers who has it's own devs and IPs are TOTALLY different things. It's not even comparable. LoL. You're kidding right?
ToadMan
Member
Yep - key point. The talent.
And that talent is free to up and leave when it wishes to do so - just after the cheque clears is usually a good time.
Which is why trying to buy success in creative industries is a waste of time. History is littered with closed studios who were bought by various companies hoping to achieve success without the real investment required.
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FrankWza
Member
I never thought of this. It might be possible they made sure certain employees were signed longer term in order to make the purchase though. Certain key figures.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Honestly never heard about this.. and that... is actually pretty interesting investment from Sony.
Sounds like it flopped hard tho lol
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Big purchases typically have this in tech.
And then it's also quite typical for mysteriously the original founders of a bought out tech company to both leave say.. 12.. or 24 months later. lol
The other problem can be.. you make these people billionaires, making them contractually obligated to stay.. doesn't mean they'll actually perform their jobs well. And doesn't mean you don't lost tons of non-owner talent. The people working for private companies who don't own the company are not a part of those non-compete/contractually obligated to stay clauses. (really it's more of an actual ironclad non-compete, sometimes people still step away, and when they don't go anywhere else, or start their own company, it's because they had that non compete, and generally don't mention it)
MS seems to be in the business of trying their best to keep talent around at bought studios.. which TBH, might be one reason some of Zenimax doesn't go exclusive. If the devs don't want it, MS will likely let them stay multi-plat, at least to some extent.. as they don't want those devs leaving.
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ToadMan
Member
Those kind of contracts aren’t enforceable. Slavery is not legal concept in western countries.
They can however try and incentivise them with cash to stay - loyalty bonuses, share options and that kind of thing. But a bird in a cage doesn’t sing as sweetly as one who is free ...
I’ve been through a few acquisitions and mergers in my time. “The talent” - specifically those who were in pivotal roles, good at their jobs, and key targets - they could choose their employer anyway and usually would move on if the new environment didn’t suit them. I left one company when my it was acquired by a much larger blue chip - I liked working in a small agile and comprehensible company, and I didn’t want to be an anonymous cog in some multinational. I banked the stock after the take over and resigned a couple of of months later.
The ones who stay after a merger/acquisition, are usually those who couldn’t get such lucrative work elsewhere or who were just wedded to the project and wanted to see it through.
It’s not easy buying a mindset and integrating it. Money doesn’t always talk as loudly as you might think.
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DarkMage619
$MSFT
Perhaps not but less time making PS5 titles will at least give them more time to make the games better on PC and Xbox. You may not like their games but plenty do.
How are they different? Does Insomniac do things Bethesda does not? Does Bethesda not have developers? The scale is not identical but neither is the size of Sony and MS. Scale fits the business.
It would be odd for a developer to leave a company AFTER gaining a steady source of funding. You'd figure the time to leave would be when the company is on its way out. Job security in a fickle business is hard to find. Abandoning that might not be a good idea.
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FrankWza
Member
I agree. That’s why series x isn’t $299 and it’s funny whenever Microsoft’s cash on hand or size as a company is brought up.
and if they didn’t have to develop for series s they could really put out something special. Too bad that’s gonna hold them back until they decide to pull that plug.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
I like their games. Doesn't change the fact that they're some of the buggiest in the business and removing a platform isn't going to change that. Didn't help with Morrowind or Oblivion and it certainly won't help with Starfield or TESVI
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RaZoR No1
Member
I never said, that the PC itself is cheaper
PC games in general are cheaper
Additonally you can play on PC all available PC games + emulators and on PS5 only PS4 and PS5 games
Three Jackdaws
Banned
Great podcast with BRAP, LeviathanGamer and OptimusCode (+few others), some really interesting discussions going on, it's worth the watch.
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Rea
Member
The difference is, Insomniac can't publish games by themselves, they don't have resources and they need publishers such as sony, Microsoft or other party publishers.
Bethesda is a big giant 3rd party publishers with lots of
in- house devs working in different studios, they also own many IPs like Doom, fallout etc. Buying Insomniac is like hiring employees to work at SIE.
Buying Bethesda is the same as buying A big company which also has their own employees and assets.
MasterCornholio
Member
Three Jackdaws
Banned
Is that him? It's the first time I've come across the channel, watching it because LeviathanGamer tweeted that he was going to be on it. I'm glad though, it's a great podcast and some interesting discussions going on especially with regards to the next-gen consoles!Thisbrap ?
I came in on the part where they were talking about ray tracing, and how all the focus shouldnt be on reflections but other things. Oh, didnt realize its available as soon as the stream ends. Time to go back and watch the whole thing now.
lol, Leviathan Gamer still trying to explain how the PS5 isnt RDNA 1, someone posted in chat about it. It cant get any simpler than how he explained it.
Basically he said RDNA 1 is RX 5000 gpu's. RDNA 2 gets over 2Ghz clock speeds. RDNA 1 cant. Its honestly that simple IMO. The RX 6700XT should have ppl looking at the 6000 series anyway for PS5 comparisons.
Honestly, if ppl wanna talk specs of these consoles it would benefit them to at least learn, read up, something......about PC specs, info, etc.
Listening to this now, Leviathan Gamer talking about the cu's and L1 cache latency info....this video is really worth the watch. He's talking about stuff some here already did about why the consoles are so close. Some ppl chose to dismiss it tho.
Once again..."ts the closest 2 consoles have ever been"
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MasterCornholio
Member
I have no idea but that's where I first saw the name.
MasterCornholio
Member
Interesting because I've seen countless people including Digital Foundry compare the PS5 to the 5000 series (AKA RDNA1).
Three Jackdaws
Banned
I find no fruit in the "RDNA 1" discussion anymore, honestly. I think anyone peddling that stuff is just trolling as it has been debunked so many times now.
I noticed that too. A little annoying, they should know better.
I added some stuff to my orig post.
Yeah, early on I get why because there was nothing else close to compare it too. Like some of us said, it was flawed then and IMO should have had caveats with it. Or clear caveats.
Agree 100%.
Yeah, early on I get why because there was nothing else close to compare it too. Like some of us said, it was flawed then and IMO should have had caveats with it. Or clear caveats.
Agree 100%.
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DarkMage619
$MSFT
dcmk7
Banned
Not really, Bethesda was desperate to be sold, that combined with the aftermath of Halo Infinite big public reveal which, let's face it, bombed and was a severely embarrassing episode.. it seemed a bit of a reactionary move.
It hardly seems strategic. And there are still hints that the familiar IP will be on PS.. despite the game subscription service.
FrankWza
Member
Microsoft Looking Into a Fix for Unresponsive Xbox Controller Issue - IGN
The Xbox Series X controller appears to issues with unresponsive buttons, and Microsoft is working on a fix.
MasterCornholio
Member
Well with the recent die shot there was still speculation of the PS5 not being RDNA2 based. I truly believe that it is because Sony said so but there are some that are still calling it RDNA1 based.
I think Leviathan really hit the nail with the high clocks argument.
Derift
Member
i find it really weird that xbox fans are so hype about these games now becoming exclusive.... they are treating it like its a new game being announced
Derift
Member
pretty much what i had said
Negotiator
Member
AMD to sell a cut down version of Sony's PS4 APU
PS4 is a fucking beast, teraflops don't mean shit when it comes to coding for a closed, windows OS-free system.Actually, teraflops mean exactly as much on a closed, "windows OS-free" (as if that made any significant difference) system as they do on an open one. Their meaning is pretty clearly...
Is PS4 hampered by its memory system?
I think by giving CPUs a fixed budget, no matter what solution is picked, it should be fairly easy to avoid contention ...
forum.beyond3d.com
It's a myth being perpetuated by PCMR peeps.
Also, it's not like the slower pool of XSX has less latency vs fast pool. They're both the same in terms of latency.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Well in that case that PC port could be real.
ToadMan
Member
Developers who are good at their jobs are never short of funding - they choose where they work.
Buying a studio (or set of studios) is buying IPs and assets. The talent who actually make the difference choose whether they want to work in the new organisation or not. Those who don’t have a choice - ie the non-talent - stay put.
Or, to put it the other way round, MS could have saved a ton of cash by just hiring the key talent. They didn’t do that, instead they entered into a deal to acquire zenimax and paid way more than the IPs and assets are worth.
Seems like the key talent didn’t want to work for MS or they’d already be there. That’s quite a common condition in talented engineers.
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