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[Deleted member 775630]

How can you at this point in time say that with a straight face? We have seen literally nothing so far that would give weight to that assumption and we're less than a month away from these consoles releasing. At the very least wait until you have anything to back up your opinion.

Because we know the specs of both systems. We'll know in a couple of weeks when we compare games on both systems. I could be wrong of course, wouldn't be the first time.

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

he realized Bo_Hazem was talking nonsense and cancelled the video

I dunno, he presented his case and backed it up, NXGamer said he'd look into it so clealry there something that not straightforward with demon souls and how its achieving its image quality.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

Because we know the specs of both systems. We'll know in a couple of weeks when we compare games on both systems. I could be wrong of course, wouldn't be the first time.

It's pretty natural to assume a PC (and that's really all these boxes are) with more powerful GPU, CPU and RAM will perform better, if said power is required and/or actively utilised, than one with weaker alternatives.

Ultimately though, I would be surprised if we see any multiplat games coming out for years that can take advantage of the XsX headroom and don't simply go down the path of least resistance - absolute console parity.

 

[sircaw]

Lol some things like what he said and the cerny bible just age so well over time.

What the crytek guy said seems more and more plausible to me, maybe its part of the answer to what we have seen or in some cases not seen, in xbox struggles and failure to show anything running better than Sony.

I agree, i am not the most technical person like you know but from everything i read and seen in regards to the strategies of xbox and sony it always seems to me there is so much more than just tflops as a metric. I have seen people say it over and over again but people still keep believing Tflops is the most important thing are in for a rude awakening.

I think HeisenbergFX4 said it along time ago, the xbox is like a beefed-up whatever the last version is called the 6 tflop one and Sony is the true next-gen console.

Xbox was talking about tflops, ram, cpu while Sony was talking about scrubbers, coherency engines bla bla bla.

I have seen a lot of strange shit the last week, people turning around and saying speed/loading does not matter and its only the gpu/ram that matters. You can 100% guarantee if xbox had a better ssd, those same people would be shouting about it all day long.

less than 4 weeks to go, tick tock.

 

[Yoboman]

The unspoken truth is that devs try their absolute best for parity and have gotten better at it over time

They also tend to get a lot of backlash if one version is worse

I expect we will see parity for 90% of games even if there is a hardware difference one way or another

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Ghost Of Tshushima multi-player out this Friday

New thread worthy?

 

[kyliethicc]

I don't think either the PS5 or XBSX will be able to have next gen, beautiful 60 FPS games with RT, at anything higher than 1080p res. Even the top Nvidia desktop graphics cards use DLSS with RT to hit 60 Hz, even with better CPUs than the consoles have.

For console games, any amount of RT at 30 FPS is the best we can hope for, unless a game is built from the ground up to hit 60 FPS. But they'll have to cut back other things for that. Otherwise, devs will just pick what they think looks best and target 30 FPS, then downgrade what they have to if they're doing a framerate mode.

 

[Shmunter]

How so? XSX will still be the best system to play 3rd party games on, graphically. BUT this specific game, that is being dragged down due to a marketing deal with Microsoft, a game that's focused on gameplay, why would I then focus on graphics.

There's a big difference between specific games, and all games in general.

Yakuza running in 1080p on XsX to achieve locked 60fps is raising a lot of questions in my mind. The is not some kind raytracing powerhouse. I’m speechless, I am without speech.

We should all hold our tongues till further notice under the circumstances.

 

[GreyHand23]

It's pretty natural to assume a PC (and that's really all these boxes are) with more powerful GPU, CPU and RAM will perform better, if said power is required and/or actively utilised, than one with weaker alternatives.

Ultimately though, I would be surprised if we see any multiplat games coming out for years that can take advantage of the XsX headroom and don't simply go down the path of least resistance - absolute console parity.

What we’re seeing so far is developers leaning even heavier into dynamic resolution which is going to make it even harder to see any differences especially if combined with temporal upscale techniques like Insomniac is using. The difference in 3rd party games then becomes potentially much faster loading on PS5 and a controller with extra sensory features. How does Microsoft sell the most powerful console narrative under those conditions? To the average consumer the PS5 will feel faster and look the same. This is the tough position XSX might be in if there is no visual difference and the main reason that Halo not being a graphical showcase at launch was highly disappointing.

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

So assuming we'll see differences between multiplaform games, what would the differences be between a platform and the other with a ~18% more powerful GPU, a 100 mhz faster CPU and a faster but also a slower memory bandwidth?
I just can think of a steadier framerate or maybe games with dynamic res won't need to downscale as often.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

I don't think either the PS5 or XBSX will be able to have next gen, beautiful 60 FPS games with RT, at anything higher than 1080p res. Even the top Nvidia desktop graphics cards use DLSS with RT to hit 60 Hz, even with better CPUs than the consoles have.

For console games, any amount of RT at 30 FPS is the best we can hope for, unless a game is built from the ground up to hit 60 FPS. But they'll have to cut back other things for that. Otherwise, devs will just pick what they think looks best and target 30 FPS, then downgrade what they have to if they're doing a framerate mode.

Dat avatar

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Yakuza running in 1080p on XsX to achieve locked 60fps is raising a lot of questions in my mind. The is not some kind raytracing powerhouse. I’m speechless, I am without speech.

We should all hold our tongues till further notice under the circumstances.

That has more to do with the developer then the console itself. Wasn't there a tweet that said PS5 would have the exact same resolution and framerate?

 

[sircaw]

The unspoken truth is that devs try their absolute best for parity and have gotten better at it over time

They also tend to get a lot of backlash if one version is worse

I expect we will see parity for 90% of games even if there is a hardware difference one way or another

three things about that, i think we have seen many developers saying its easier to developer games on the ps5, will that also come across in optimizations. If so surely that means the ps5 will have a better end game product?

The second thing and maybe this is nothing but if sony outsells xbox at say 2-1 3-1 are they going to give the same level of optimization on both platforms. Say it ends up being 30 million ps5 sold to 10 million xbox sold, do they support them equally.

No 3, what about lower spec machine xbox, will that take people away from working on the bigger xbox or do they do them both at the same time.

 

[Yoboman]

three things about that, i think we have seen many developers saying its easier to developer games on the ps5, will that also come across in optimizations. If so surely that means the ps5 will have a better end game product?

The second thing and maybe this is nothing but if sony outsells xbox at say 2-1 3-1 are they going to give the same level of optimization on both platforms. Say it ends up being 30 million ps5 sold to 10 million xbox sold, do they support them equally.

No 3, what about lower spec machine xbox, will that take people away from working on the bigger xbox or do they do them both at the same time.

Im no techy but I believe a lot of devs have created their pipelines around efficient multiplat development. I think most will do their best to have parity

Obviously thats assuming there is no substantial difference in the performance of the consoles

 

[edotlee]

PS5に覚悟の「液体金属」採用、真の狙いはコスト削減

　「液体金属（による熱伝導材）をどうしても使いたかった。それには相当な決意と準備が必要だった」――。米Sony Interactive Entertainment（SIE、ソニー・インタラクティブエンタテインメント）が2020年11月に発売予定の据え置き型ゲーム機「PlayStation 5（PS5）」の機構設計・熱設計の責任者である鳳（おおとり） 康宏氏は、PS5を実現する上で重要な役割を担った技術への思いをこう語る。同氏は、PS2からプレイステーションの設計に携わっており、SIEが2020年10月7日に公開したPS5の分解動画では、自ら出演し、作業と解説を行った。

xtech.nikkei.com

Nikkei Interview Part 1 with Yasuhiro Otori, VP of Mechanical Design and the man who did the PS5 Teardown:

"I really wanted to use liquid metal as a heat conductor." It took a lot of determination and preparation. Sony Interactive Entertainment's (SIE) PlayStation 5 (PS5) console is scheduled to launch in November 2020, and Yasuhiro Otori, who is responsible for the mechanical and thermal design of the console, has been working on the PS5 This is how he describes his thoughts on the technology that played a key role in making the He has been involved in the design of the PlayStation since the PS2, and appeared himself in the PS5 disassembly video released by SIE on October 7, 2020, to work and explain the process.


　PS5 uses liquid metal as the heat conduction material (TIM) for transferring heat from the main processor (SoC) to the heat sink. Without this liquid metal TIM, the PS5 would have been larger, more expensive, and the cooling fan would have been louder. The noise of the cooling fan during gaming varies depending on the situation, but according to Otori, "the PS5 is generally quieter than the PS4".

　The PS5 is available in two models, one with an optical disc drive and the other without, priced at US$499 and US$399, respectively, which is a bargain against the specifications. The thermal design contributed greatly to the cost savings in achieving this price. This article will be divided into two parts, Part 1 and Part 2, based on the interview with Mr. Otori.

Why did we use liquid metal in TIM?
　Preparations for the adoption of liquid metal TIM began about two years ago, when the configuration and shape of the PS5 hardware was roughly decided. In addition to the design, we began to consider various aspects of the adoption of liquid metal TIM, from the manufacturing process to procurement. They decided to use liquid metal TIM because the main processor (SoC) had a high operating frequency, but the die was small and the thermal density was "very high" (Mr. Otori). The heat density of the SoC, especially during gaming, is "much higher" (he said) than the PS4. That's because the PS5's SoC "basically runs at almost full power during gaming" (he says). As a result, TDP (Thermal Design Power) values and the amount of heat generated during gaming are "about the same". On the other hand, it is rare for a PS4 SoC to operate at the very edge of TDP, and even when gaming, it generates only a few percent of its TDP.

The reason for the small size of the SoC die is that die size is directly related to cost and yield. In other words, the smaller the die size, the lower the cost and the more difficult it is for defects to enter the die, which leads to higher yields.

Liquid metal TIM is more expensive than conventional thermal conductors such as thermal grease. However, when considering the thermal design of electronic devices, the more effort is put into cooling close to the heat source, the "better the cost performance" (Mr. Otori). This is because if heat can be recovered efficiently near the heat source, there is no need to spend money on heat sinks and cooling fans. On the other hand, if thermal grease is used, an expensive heat sink with high cooling performance is required.

　In other words, even if we use liquid metal TIM, which leads to higher costs, we can reduce the total cost of cooling as a result," says Otori. The speed of the cooling fan can also be reduced, which reduces noise. In other words, the use of liquid metal TIM "makes sense in terms of cost and quietness" (Mr. Otori).

　So will liquid metal TIM be used in other electronic devices in the future? As for that, "I don't know" (Mr. Otori), but he prefaced it by saying, "As an engineer, the less expensive a device is, the more I want to use it" (Mr. Otori). He believes that liquid metal TIM will be a powerful tool in cases where heat sinks are expensive and in need of help.

Teaming up with a material manufacturer and know-how in application
　Liquid metal TIM has many advantages, but it is a material that "poses a challenge to use" (Mr. Otori). For example, because it is conductive, if liquid metal TIM leaks onto the board, there is a risk of a short circuit in the board. In addition, it is highly reactive to aluminum, so it must be kept away from aluminum.

Because of these issues, although TIM is used in mobile phone base stations and other devices, its use in consumer applications is limited to a limited number of notebook computers and "overclockers," which are enthusiasts who increase the operating frequency of processors. .

　Therefore, the company has taken measures to address these issues so that it can be used in game consoles that are mass-produced in quantities ranging from several million units to more than 10 million units per year. For example, a sealed structure was adopted to prevent leakage of the liquid metal TIM. This structure is patented, although it would be obvious if it were to be disassembled and seen. Above all, there is a lot of manufacturing know-how, such as how to apply and automate liquid metal TIM, that is not obvious just by looking at it," said Otori. For example, liquid metal TIM is applied by an automated machine, but "it's a different method than conventional grease," according to Mr. Otori. We cooperated with material manufacturers to realize this liquid metal TIM. The company claims to have added customizations based on existing products.



Source: https://www.resetera.com/threads/pl...have-been-a-lot-smoother.292115/post-48440648

 

[sircaw]

Im no techy but I believe a lot of devs have created their pipelines around efficient multiplat development. I think most will do their best to have parity

Obviously thats assuming there is no substantial difference in the performance of the consoles

I think at the end of the day, does any of this shit really matter. Its all about the games, always has been always will.

These little one-upmanship things are fun but don't help anyone when you're all alone sitting in front of your console.

 

[edotlee]

PS5のサイズの秘密は冷却ファンにあり、ヒートシンクに妙技

　米Sony Interactive Entertainment（SIE、ソニー・インタラクティブエンタテインメント）が2020年11月に発売する据え置き型ゲーム機「PlayStation 5（PS5）」には、コスト削減や静音性の向上、ならびに筐体（きょうたい）サイズをなるべく小さくするために、熱設計にさまざまな工夫を施している。後編となる今回は、大型の冷却ファンやヒートシンクについての工夫を紹介する。

xtech.nikkei.com

Part 2 of Otori Interview:

Sony Interactive Entertainment (SIE) will release PlayStation 5 (PS5) in November 2020, and the company has announced that it will cut costs, improve noise and increase the size of the console's chassis In PS5, liquid metal thermal interface (TIM) is used to efficiently conduct the heat generated by the main processor (SoC) to a large heatsink, which is then cooled by a large cooling fan. In the first part of this article, the TIM of liquid metal was explained. In the second part, we will introduce some innovations for large cooling fans and heat sinks.

　The PS5's cooling fan is centrifugal, just like the PS3 and PS4, and is 120mm in diameter. It is 120mm in diameter and is controlled by a servo system like the PS4, which adjusts the fan speed according to heat generation. The centrifugal fan produces airflow in all directions. Compared to the axial fans commonly used in desktop computers, the airflow is a little smaller, but the static pressure is a little higher.

　The type of fan to be used is generally chosen based on the required static pressure and flow rate. If the static pressure required for a fan is low, then an axial fan is an option instead of a centrifugal fan. But the centrifugal fan is still in the strike zone" (Otori Yasuhiro, head of the PS5's mechanical and thermal design).

The bigger PS5 comes from a thicker fan
　To cool both sides of the main board, the PS5's cooling fan is 45 mm thick, which is thicker than the current PS4 and PS4 Pro. If we divide the SoC-mounted side of the PS5 into "Side A" and the back of the PS5 into "Side B," then the heat emitted from Side B is "equivalent to that of the PS4's SoC," according to Mr. Otori. Therefore, the air is sucked in from both sides of the cooling fan to cool the A and B sides of the main board.

The size of this cooling fan determined the size of the PS5. The fan's thickness was based on the width of the PS5 when it was placed vertically (or the height if it was placed horizontally), and it was asymmetrical when viewed from the front. This is because that is where the optical disk drive is located.

Easy to remove the optical disk drive
　When the unit is placed in portrait mode, the right side viewed from the front is on the bottom of the unit when it is placed horizontally. When the system is placed horizontally, the main board is placed underneath the heat sink and power supply module, and the optical disk drive is placed underneath the main board. The purpose of this is to make it easier to support the "Digital Edition" which does not include the drive. If you remove the optical disc drive, the standard PS5 becomes the Digital Edition.

　The PS5 measures 390mm x 260mm x 104mm, which is larger than the larger PS4 Pro (approximately 327mm x 295mm x 55mm), which is the larger of the PS4 series. In fact, there were ways to make the PS5 smaller than its current size. For example, we could reduce the size of the PS5 by installing two cooling fans, one for side A and one for side B. However, there was no way to make the PS5 smaller than the current size. However, this would increase the cost of the two cooling fans. In addition, controlling the rotation of the two cooling fans is "more difficult" than controlling only one fan. That is why they decided to use a single large fan to cool both sides of a single main board.

Small details around the cooling fan
　Around the cooling fan, measures have been taken to ensure user convenience and safety. For example, the PS5 uses a "dust catcher" that collects dust and other small debris blown away by the centrifugal force of the fan. According to Otori, "It's something we've wanted to introduce for a long time, and we adopted it because we could secure the space. Inside the PS5 is a space where dust blown away by the centrifugal force of the fan can be collected, and the dust can be vacuumed up through the hole that appears when the white exterior cover is removed.

　Safety measures were also taken to prevent fingers from accidentally getting into the spinning fan. Removing the outer cover reveals the cooling fan. While it is assumed that the power is turned off when removing the exterior cover, there is no chance of removing the cover without turning it off. In other words, if you remove the exterior cover while the power is on, the cooling fan will still be spinning. This is why we added a cover to prevent fingers from getting into the fan while it is spinning.

　However, because the fan cover creates air resistance, it has a three-dimensional shape and has small holes in it to allow the air to flow smoothly. According to Mr. Otori, "This cover was designed by a young engineer who had been with the company for a couple of years".

3D heat pipes and gaps between cooling fins
　Even with a large heat sink, the company has achieved both improved cooling performance and cost reduction. Although the heat pipes are used, the shape and airflow of the heat pipes have enabled the company to achieve cooling performance equivalent to that of an expensive vapour chamber with superior cooling performance and reduced costs. For example, the heat pipes are bent in a three-dimensional (three-dimensional) structure. Of the three fins in the heatsink, the heat pipe is made to pass through the upper and lower sides of one fin (fin 1), respectively, to increase the cooling performance of this fin.

　The other two fins have some innovations as well. For example, one of the fins (fin 2) is angled at an angle. In addition, we intentionally created a gap between this fin (fin 2) and the other fin (fin 3) to allow the air that has been heated by the first fin (fin 2) to be mixed with air from another source to cool it down and then sent to the second fin (fin 3) to improve the cooling effect on fin 3. I made it. If this gap is also filled with fins, the cooling effect of fin 3 is reduced because once the air is not cooled, it cannot be cooled.

On the B side, there is also a heat sink and heat pipe
　In addition to this large item, there is another heat sink in the area that is difficult to see from the disassembly video. That is the heat sink located on the B side of the main board. The main board is sandwiched between the aforementioned A side and B side by a metal shield plate, and in order to cool the power supply system such as the DC-DC converter mounted on the B side, a heat sink and a heat pipe were installed on the shield plate on the B side. In addition, the B-side shield is made of aluminum for cooling, while the A-side shield is made of steel.

There were other structural features as well. One example is the thermal conductivity between the GDDR6 compatible memory mounted on the B side of the main board and the shield board. Instead of the so-called 'stick-on' type thermal conductor in sheet form, it is coated with a liquid material that hardens like rubber after a short time. This is a measure to increase productivity in response to automation.

　In the case of the paste-type heat-conductive materials, it is difficult to remove them from the backing board by an automatic machine, so it is necessary to manually remove them. The PS5 uses almost all of the thermal conducive materials used in the PS5, whereas the PS4 series used only some of them.

Source: https://www.resetera.com/threads/pl...have-been-a-lot-smoother.292115/post-48440648

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

What we’re seeing so far is developers leaning even heavier into dynamic resolution which is going to make it even harder to see any differences especially if combined with temporal upscale techniques like Insomniac is using. The difference in 3rd party games then becomes potentially much faster loading on PS5 and a controller with extra sensory features. How does Microsoft sell the most powerful console narrative under those conditions? To the average consumer the PS5 will feel faster and look the same. This is the tough position XSX might be in if there is no visual difference and the main reason that Halo not being a graphical showcase at launch was highly disappointing.

I agree to an extent, it's obvious most third party devs will attempt to skirt any negative publicity by aiming for parity, which of course only leaves the SSD speed advantage of the PS5.

How that plays out remains to be seen, but it wouldn't surprise me if MS shifted gears to focusing on things like BC (they've already started doing this to a degree) the value of Game Pass and studio acquisition.

 

[geordiemp]

So assuming we'll see differences between multiplaform games, what would the differences be between a platform and the other with a ~18% more powerful GPU, a 100 mhz faster CPU and a faster but also a slower memory bandwidth?
I just can think of a steadier framerate or maybe games with dynamic res won't need to downscale as often.

I dont think ps5 will be 18 % better, I believe they will be similar, although what we have seen so far I am not so sure.

Ps5 is clearly very efficient at CU utilisation and fast caches in games we have seen by Sony first party, but I think we need to wait to jump to conclusions as XSX games so far might be SDK or other hinderenaces to get out in game performance vs paper specs..

The TF will soon be replaced with how fast caches and speed on silicon IMO as the go to metric. AMD PC parts will shine a light on this.

Hopefully they will be the same on 3rd pary so everyone can be happy.

 

[Mr Moose]

PS5に覚悟の「液体金属」採用、真の狙いはコスト削減

　「液体金属（による熱伝導材）をどうしても使いたかった。それには相当な決意と準備が必要だった」――。米Sony Interactive Entertainment（SIE、ソニー・インタラクティブエンタテインメント）が2020年11月に発売予定の据え置き型ゲーム機「PlayStation 5（PS5）」の機構設計・熱設計の責任者である鳳（おおとり） 康宏氏は、PS5を実現する上で重要な役割を担った技術への思いをこう語る。同氏は、PS2からプレイステーションの設計に携わっており、SIEが2020年10月7日に公開したPS5の分解動画では、自ら出演し、作業と解説を行った。

xtech.nikkei.com

Nikkei Interview Part 1 with Yasuhiro Otori, VP of Mechanical Design and the man who did the PS5 Teardown:

"I really wanted to use liquid metal as a heat conductor." It took a lot of determination and preparation. Sony Interactive Entertainment's (SIE) PlayStation 5 (PS5) console is scheduled to launch in November 2020, and Yasuhiro Otori, who is responsible for the mechanical and thermal design of the console, has been working on the PS5 This is how he describes his thoughts on the technology that played a key role in making the He has been involved in the design of the PlayStation since the PS2, and appeared himself in the PS5 disassembly video released by SIE on October 7, 2020, to work and explain the process.


　PS5 uses liquid metal as the heat conduction material (TIM) for transferring heat from the main processor (SoC) to the heat sink. Without this liquid metal TIM, the PS5 would have been larger, more expensive, and the cooling fan would have been louder. The noise of the cooling fan during gaming varies depending on the situation, but according to Otori, "the PS5 is generally quieter than the PS4".

　The PS5 is available in two models, one with an optical disc drive and the other without, priced at US$499 and US$399, respectively, which is a bargain against the specifications. The thermal design contributed greatly to the cost savings in achieving this price. This article will be divided into two parts, Part 1 and Part 2, based on the interview with Mr. Otori.

Why did we use liquid metal in TIM?
　Preparations for the adoption of liquid metal TIM began about two years ago, when the configuration and shape of the PS5 hardware was roughly decided. In addition to the design, we began to consider various aspects of the adoption of liquid metal TIM, from the manufacturing process to procurement. They decided to use liquid metal TIM because the main processor (SoC) had a high operating frequency, but the die was small and the thermal density was "very high" (Mr. Otori). The heat density of the SoC, especially during gaming, is "much higher" (he said) than the PS4. That's because the PS5's SoC "basically runs at almost full power during gaming" (he says). As a result, TDP (Thermal Design Power) values and the amount of heat generated during gaming are "about the same". On the other hand, it is rare for a PS4 SoC to operate at the very edge of TDP, and even when gaming, it generates only a few percent of its TDP.

The reason for the small size of the SoC die is that die size is directly related to cost and yield. In other words, the smaller the die size, the lower the cost and the more difficult it is for defects to enter the die, which leads to higher yields.

Liquid metal TIM is more expensive than conventional thermal conductors such as thermal grease. However, when considering the thermal design of electronic devices, the more effort is put into cooling close to the heat source, the "better the cost performance" (Mr. Otori). This is because if heat can be recovered efficiently near the heat source, there is no need to spend money on heat sinks and cooling fans. On the other hand, if thermal grease is used, an expensive heat sink with high cooling performance is required.

　In other words, even if we use liquid metal TIM, which leads to higher costs, we can reduce the total cost of cooling as a result," says Otori. The speed of the cooling fan can also be reduced, which reduces noise. In other words, the use of liquid metal TIM "makes sense in terms of cost and quietness" (Mr. Otori).

　So will liquid metal TIM be used in other electronic devices in the future? As for that, "I don't know" (Mr. Otori), but he prefaced it by saying, "As an engineer, the less expensive a device is, the more I want to use it" (Mr. Otori). He believes that liquid metal TIM will be a powerful tool in cases where heat sinks are expensive and in need of help.

Teaming up with a material manufacturer and know-how in application
　Liquid metal TIM has many advantages, but it is a material that "poses a challenge to use" (Mr. Otori). For example, because it is conductive, if liquid metal TIM leaks onto the board, there is a risk of a short circuit in the board. In addition, it is highly reactive to aluminum, so it must be kept away from aluminum.

Because of these issues, although TIM is used in mobile phone base stations and other devices, its use in consumer applications is limited to a limited number of notebook computers and "overclockers," which are enthusiasts who increase the operating frequency of processors. .

　Therefore, the company has taken measures to address these issues so that it can be used in game consoles that are mass-produced in quantities ranging from several million units to more than 10 million units per year. For example, a sealed structure was adopted to prevent leakage of the liquid metal TIM. This structure is patented, although it would be obvious if it were to be disassembled and seen. Above all, there is a lot of manufacturing know-how, such as how to apply and automate liquid metal TIM, that is not obvious just by looking at it," said Otori. For example, liquid metal TIM is applied by an automated machine, but "it's a different method than conventional grease," according to Mr. Otori. We cooperated with material manufacturers to realize this liquid metal TIM. The company claims to have added customizations based on existing products.



Source: https://www.resetera.com/threads/pl...have-been-a-lot-smoother.292115/post-48440648

Preparations for the adoption of liquid metal TIM began about two years ago, when the configuration and shape of the PS5 hardware was roughly decided.

But... They clocked it high early this year because of the Series X! What is this nonsense!?

 

[chilichote]

Now i want a "liquid metal Tim"-Meme

 

[bitbydeath]

Now i want a "liquid metal Tim"-Meme

 

[cMonry]

The noise of the cooling fan during gaming varies depending on the situation, but according to Otori, "the PS5 is generally quieter than the PS4".

Source: https://www.resetera.com/threads/pl...have-been-a-lot-smoother.292115/post-48440648

Ah shit, here we go again.
What is the problem with spinnig the fan with constant speed? Am I the only one that finds varying fan noise much more irritating than if it was spinning faster but with constant speed? It better be very quiet..

 

[fragganaut]

There is a new system software for the PS4
PS4 update 8.0

maybe Sony is preparing the stage for the reveal of the a new Playstation store or the new PS5 UI?

 

[geordiemp]

How so? XSX will still be the best system to play 3rd party games on, graphically. BUT this specific game, that is being dragged down due to a marketing deal with Microsoft, a game that's focused on gameplay, why would I then focus on graphics.

There's a big difference between specific games, and all games in general.

I think it will be the opposite, ps5 games so far have shown more in game performance, although XSX will hopefully improve as SDK is developed. Although I am not sure its just the SDK as being held up as holding back, the whole cache and arrangement on silicon looks to me to prioritise the server application, and dont get me started on larger shader arrays to keep 4 of them to match the server requirement.....

The AMD pC designs will not have larger than 10 CU shader arrays, for sure, with fast clocks and optimsied caches for running 1 game.

We have seen dirt 5, halo, Yakuzza, Sekiro and Hitman 3 XSX performance, you cant keep blaming the devs.

 

[Empire Strikes Back]

There is a new system software for the PS4
PS4 update 8.0

maybe Sony is preparing the stage for the reveal of the a new Playstation store or the new PS5 UI?

I definitely think they are making some background changes to support the new PS Store and make some features in line with the PS5 UI like removing Event and Private Community creation.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

That has more to do with the developer then the console itself. Wasn't there a tweet that said PS5 would have the exact same resolution and framerate?

Lack of patience has resulted in some spectacular own goals for both Sony and MS fans in the lead-up to next-gen. You'd think lessons will have been learned, as there is high risk and low reward in these bold claims. However, I won't discourage anyone from careening down this strange path, as the resulting fallout and face-egg has been hilarious for us more neutral bystanders. Do what you do.

 

[FranXico]

We have seen dirt 5, halo, Yakuzza, Sekiro and Hitman 3 XSX performance, you cant keep blaming the devs.

Still need to see more before drawing conclusions.

 

[geordiemp]

Still need to see more before drawing conclusions.

Oh I agree, just seeing sony first party and 5 or 6 XSX games is not sufficient. There are vidoes of Yakuza on ps5 going around, so wont be long to wait if people need comparisons.

I have always posted, for last 6 months, that abstract api vs direct apis, and faster caches / on chip bandwidth would close the differences to neglible, but did not except so much so early.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

We have seen dirt 5, halo, Yakuzza, Sekiro and Hitman 3 XSX performance, you cant keep blaming the devs.

This is such bullshit.

Dirt 5 was an early preview build of a poor cross-gen game running at 4k/60 and in 120fps modes.

Halo has never been shown running on XsX.

Yakuza performance looks in line with Yakuza performance on PC and will have parity on PS5

Sekiro looks great? Mostly 60 fps in an untouched and unenhanced BC title is impressive. Not sure you'd even mention Sekiro.

Hitman 3 has never been shown running on XsX.

If you're going to spread FUD, at least try not to pull it out of your ass. Leave that to Twitter.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

I think it will be the opposite, ps5 games so far have shown more in game performance, although XSX will hopefully improve as SDK is developed. Although I am not sure its just the SDK as being held up as holding back, the whole cache and arrangement on silicon looks to me to prioritise the server application, and dont get me started on larger shader arrays to keep 4 of them to match the server requirement.....

The AMD pC designs will not have larger than 10 CU shader arrays, for sure, with fast clocks and optimsied caches for running 1 game.

We have seen dirt 5, halo, Yakuzza, Sekiro and Hitman 3 XSX performance, you cant keep blaming the devs.

What's your concern regarding the larger shader arrays on the XSX? I don't know if "concern" is the best word, so maybe "thought" is a better term. Is it that the related caches are too small to keep all the CUs fed with useful data? Is RT a rendering process that eats up a lot of cache space? I would figure that the ability to work recursively on the same piece of data would actually make RT easier to do on the XSX, due to having more CUs than you can funnel new data to.

Forgive my ignorance, as I just don't understand the software side of a rendering pipeline very well. I make far too many assumptions to have confidence in what I'm saying.

 

[zubairali2]

There is a new system software for the PS4
PS4 update 8.0

maybe Sony is preparing the stage for the reveal of the a new Playstation store or the new PS5 UI?

its inevitable for the UI reveal. we're less than a month away, not that long right?




















right?

 

[geordiemp]

This is such bullshit.

Dirt 5 was an early preview build of a poor game running at 4k/60 and in 120fps modes.

Halo was running on a PC, not XsX

Yakuza performance looks in line with Yakuza performance on PC and will have parity on PS5

Sekiro looks great? Mostly 60 fps in an untouched and unenhanced BC title is impressive. Not sure you'd even mention Sekiro.

Hitman 3 has never been shown on XsX.

If you're going to spread FUD, at least try not to pull it out of your ass. Leave that to Twitter.

Stop being so agressive, its fact. DF did Hitman 3 analysis, also Seliro at 1800p is below, 51 fps also from Digital Foundry.

Go check your facts before accusing people.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

Stop being so agressive, its fact. DF did Hitman 3 analysis, also Seliro at 1800p is below, 51 fps.

DF did Hitman 1 and Hitman 2 analysis. Hitman 3 releases next year. Get your facts straight before you post FUD, it tends to get you banned less often.

I said "mostly 60fps" for Sekiro because that's what DF Richard says and shows. One screenshot where it dips doesn't disprove that.

You're just making shit up as you go along.

Edit: here's a bonus for you, actual games running on XsX so you don't need to make it up. Including Sekiro running at 60fps in resolution mode with auto-HDR (and others!)

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Yeah, I mean these upscaled games, maybe like demon souls 60fps mode look like 4k anyway, if indeed that's what it is doing.

Maybe if they do have a patented next gen upscaling they could call it a fancy marketing 4k name to sell it.

Also Bo_Hazem i wonder where nx gamers demon souls video from your thread analysis went that was meant for last week?

Maybe he wasn't sure, nor DF, nor us. He probably want's to play it safe, as although it's 100% 4K@60fps, it can be AI reconstructed.

he realized Bo_Hazem was talking nonsense and cancelled the video

 

[geordiemp]

What's your concern regarding the larger shader arrays on the XSX? I don't know if "concern" is the best word, so maybe "thought" is a better term. Is it that the related caches are too small to keep all the CUs fed with useful data? Is RT a rendering process that eats up a lot of cache space? I would figure that the ability to work recursively on the same piece of data would actually make RT easier to do on the XSX, due to having more CUs than you can funnel new data to.

Forgive my ignorance, as I just don't understand the software side of a rendering pipeline very well. I make far too many assumptions to have confidence in what I'm saying.

How about you consider, why would AMD PC part RDNA2 with 80 CU need 8 shader arrays, thats more silicon on front end as well. Does it really need that much front end,......Why not just 20 CU in each shader array ? Just extend it, easy.....Nope.

Once you consider the above, then it becomes interesting

 

[geordiemp]

DF did Hitman 1 and Hitman 2 analysis. Hitman 3 releases next year. Get your facts straight before you post FUD, it tends to get you banned less often.

I said "mostly 60fps" for Sekiro because that's what DF Richard says and shows. One screenshot where it dips doesn't disprove that.

You're just making shit up as you go along.

Edit: here's a bonus for you, actual games running on XsX so you don't need to make it up. Including Sekiro running at 60fps in resolution mode with auto-HDR (and others!)

Its not one dip for Sekiro, its a line below 55 for the whole screengrab.

Yeha its hitman paris stage or something,

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

Its not one dip for Sekiro, its a line below 55 for the whole screengrab.

Yeha its hitman paris stage or something,

So you admit you just made up the examples of "Halo" and "Hitman 3" (lol) running poorly on XsX, to spread FUD. Good glad we cleared that up.

Richard says mostly 60fps, and you can even see it is. I even sent you another video showing it and, regardless, it's Sekiro running in BC mode. It's a stupid example and you're only making yourself look like a Twitter warrior.

It's unbelievable that you'd have to admit to lying, but still carry on like nothing happened and expect people to take you seriously.

 

[onesvenus]

Realisticly each triangle needs to cover 8 pixels to get good performance

Where does this come from?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

There you go. And yeah I think that's SSR.

NXGamer You might wanna take a look at this again.

 

[Codexer]

 

[geordiemp]

So you admit you just made up the examples of "Halo" and "Hitman 3" (lol) running poorly on XsX, to spread FUD. Good glad we cleared that up.

Richard says mostly 60fps, and you can even see it is. I even sent you another video showing it and, regardless, it's Sekiro running in BC mode. It's a stupid example and you're only making yourself look like a Twitter warrior.

Halo we have seen, UI got thenumber wrong on hitman, glad your happy.

So you agree Sekiro is 50-55 FPS, Halo looekd bad, Hitman was below 60 FPS, Yakuza 1080 for stable 60

Shall I continue ? You can always say the dog ate the homework

 

[MastaKiiLA]

How about you consider, why would AMD PC part RDNA2 with 80 CU need 8 shader arrays, thats more silicon on front end as well. Does it really need that much front end,......Why not just 20 CU in each shader array ? Just extend it, easy.....Nope.

Once you consider the above, then it becomes interesting

Deduction is often the quickest route to the right answer, but I was hoping you had some insight into how CU allocation works in a next-gen rendering pipeline. Like how much GPU cache is for textures and triangles (which need to be updated regularly), and RT data (which I assume can be iterated on multiple times per frame). But yes, AMD wouldn't be constrained by costs in the same way Sony and MS were, so they would be able to opt for the most-performant solution. MS was certainly constrained by server demands, whereas Sony would have been purely cost-constrained, and could maximize performance within that envelope.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

Halo we have seen, UI got thenumber wrong on hitman, glad your happy.

So you agree Sekiro is 50-55 FPS, Halo looekd bad, Hitman was below 60 FPS, Yakuza 1080 for stable 60

Shall I continue ?

Halo was on PC, you claimed it was on XsX.

You lied about Hitman.

You're now using Hitman 1, the Paris stage which dipped below 60 in only one scene for less than 5 seconds in the entire game when you clearly don't know the game and never watched the video.

You're just console warring. And lying about it too. Pathetic.

 

[DaGwaphics]

As someone that started out with a PC before a console (decades ago) I would normally go along with this, but between the UE5 Demo and the two sony videos that Bo_Hazem linked in his art of pixel counting thread - the 1st about sony atomview tech and the second about how atomview is so beyond polygons that it can be used on crystal led screens as dynamic set backdrops and can be record in the scene dynamically as though it is real - if the PC hasn't matched the UE5 demo yet with a RTX 3090 then I think the ship has sailed for it beating PS5 in ray-tracing visuals, when you also factor in software production level on playstation.

Atomview rendering isn't as variable for performance as path tracing, and if the technique is already making more polygons obsolete, and the pre-release RTX IO solution is miles behind the IO complex in latency - going by the public info - so it can't do atomview/UE5 nanite on par with PS5, I think unprecedented changes in the PC gaming hardware are going to need for your statement to be true in the long run.

We'll see. I'm confident that the next-gen machines will be entirely trashed by the next-gen of cards (Nvidia 4000, AMD 7000). There are even rumors that we might start to see m.2 slots on the GPUs themselves by then. Technology moves forward, making even very smart designs weak in the face of brute force progression. In terms of RT, we might have already seen higher levels of RT on the 2000 series than what we will see in the consoles (the PS5 doesn't really scream champion there so far, more careful compromise), but we'll see how it goes down the line.

 

[geordiemp]

Halo was on PC, you claimed it was on XsX.

You lied about Hitman.

You're now using Hitman 1, the Paris stage which dipped below 60 in only one scene for less than 5 seconds in the entire game when you clearly don't know the game and never watched the video.

You're just console warring. And lying about it too. Pathetic.

You keep defending, the games will show soon enough, I will put you on igmore for now as you clearly cant see how 4k with ray tracing vs games that struggle to reach 60 is a difference.

Wont be long now, pls come back and discuss civily and you can explain the differences to us all.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

You keep defending, the games will show soon enough, I will put you on igmore for now as you clearly cant see how 4k with ray tracing vs games that struggle to reach 60 is a difference.

Wonty be long now, pls come back and discuss civily and you can explain the differences to us all.

Please stop lying and spreading FUD.

Hitman 3 lmao

 

[kikkis]

Where does this come from?

How bad are small triangles on GPU and why?

 

[geordiemp]

Deduction is often the quickest route to the right answer, but I was hoping you had some insight into how CU allocation works in a next-gen rendering pipeline. Like how much GPU cache is for textures and triangles (which need to be updated regularly), and RT data (which I assume can be iterated on multiple times per frame). But yes, AMD wouldn't be constrained by costs in the same way Sony and MS were, so they would be able to opt for the most-performant solution. MS was certainly constrained by server demands, whereas Sony would have been purely cost-constrained, and could maximize performance within that envelope.

We need the AMD white paper and RDNA2 reveal to really see what is going on, there are far too many patents and we dont know which ones are beng employed.

There is infinity cache, A different shared L1 cache that people seem to blend in the 2 differeing cache techniques together allot, L2 to L1 compression, Sony (Cerny and Naughty dog) have a patent on vertices compression, and we dont know any sizes except XSX has 5 MB L2 so MS have not gone this route on some of them.

 

[onesvenus]

according to Otori, "the PS5 is generally quieter than the PS4".

This doesn't sound like it will always be quieter than the PS4 like some people where saying

But... They clocked it high early this year because of the Series X! What is this nonsense!?

Do you understand what the word roughly means? I can see them changing clocks if performance is not as expected.

ps5 games so far have shown more in game performance

We haven't seen any game running in both consoles to compare, right? How can we reach a conclusion on whether one of the consoles is more powerful than the other?
it seems like all console warriors on both sides just make up arguments to support their unfounded beliefs