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[Zog]

Talking more about the value of the package as a whole including box art, cases, redeemed season pass/dlc codes that all end up devaluing a used copy. You get people demanding more for games in "good" condition. Then you get the odd disc that is unusable thanks to the owner having treated it like trash-very rare with BDs but where I live (Pakistan) it is not uncommon to get used games that don't work at all simply because of how poorly their owners took care of em)

A used digital copy wouldn’t come with dlc either.

Also, here in the US if you buy a used game from a shop and it is scratched, you can return it within 7 days or so. It’s also not too hard to look at a disc before you leave the store. Surely you can do this no matter where you live.

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

Used digital games is terrible for single-player story-based games.

Good job! We’re just accelerating the move to GAAS.

This is some real dumb shit.

 

[Sentenza]

You understand that they'd be subject to the same ruling as Valve right? Essentially this would set a crazy precedent that would impact any form of account-based digital purchase. Apple, Microsoft, etc would all be impacted by this. It's envisaging that your licence is a limited resource, when that's not the case at all.

Yeah, I really don't think that a lot of people here to gloat "AH-HA! TAKE THAT, GREEDY VALVE" are grasping that this is not just about Steam.
This will affect at least to some extent dozens of services. Xbox Live, PSN, whatever that Nintendo garbage is called, all the storefronts on PC, the Apple store and iTunes, the Android Play store, Youtube Music, Google Stadia, Youtube Movies, ANY single subscription service that also allows individual purchases, etc, etc.

 

[Nightrunner]

A used digital copy wouldn’t come with dlc either.

Also, here in the US if you buy a used game from a shop and it is scratched, you can return it within 7 days or so. It’s also not too hard to look at a disc before you leave the store. Surely you can do this no matter where you live.

I know you can return them same here. Doesn't mean the owner of that particular disc can sell it after 6 months like with a digital copy where you don't have to worry about taking care of it at all.
You can't say 100% sure whether a used copy won't come with DLC let's say I buy a Digital Deluxe Edition or a GOTY does that not mean my copy should have everything in it by default? Those extras would pass on I assume since they pretty much fall under the same territory as the game itself.

 

[Holammer]

The issue is not how do you implement the feature in the client. It's how you allow "digital resales" without the market collapsing entirely on itself in the following months. There's no such thing as a "used" digital copy. A "digital copy" of a software, no matter how much you "use it" doesn't degrade in quality over time. They would be virtually indistinguishable from the originals and far more aggressive in pricing.

Best case scenario that would come out of something like this is even the very few games "as single purchase" remaining these days attempting to turn themselves into "live services" to circumvent/devalue the the appeal of a "used" copy.
I'm generally all for "pro-consumer" choices no matter how hard they fuck a corporate entity, but I can see this sort of ham-fisted solution backfire spectacularly.

I'm with you. This is going to be really problematic for companies like Adobe.
But digital games do degrade in the sense that they have a commercial lifetime where sales taper off with the occasional bump during sales until keys are finally dumped on bundle sites for mere cents.
One solution would be to hold the game for 6 months (arbitrary number) before reselling become possible.

 

[Zog]

I know you can return them same here. Doesn't mean the owner of that particular disc can sell it after 6 months like with a digital copy where you don't have to worry about taking care of it at all.
You can't say 100% sure whether a used copy won't come with DLC let's say I buy a Digital Deluxe Edition or a GOTY does that not mean my copy should have everything in it by default? Those extras would pass on I assume since they pretty much fall under the same territory as the game itself.

It will be just like with a physical copy, unless the DLC is on the disc it’s not included in the used sale.

Now you’re saying that used sales should only be allowed for physical because you have to take care of a physical copy? You guys are just jumping through all the hoops to keep used digital games away.

 

[Zog]

Used digital games is terrible for single-player story-based games.

Good job! We’re just accelerating the move to GAAS.

This reads like: 'Please guys, don't support the First Sale Doctrine or the game publishers will punish us. '

 

[Clear]

The problem with this is that it essentially demands really heavy DRM in order to be feasible.

The question is, what is the end-user selling exactly? They aren't selling the program data because that must fall under global copyright protection, so what's actually being transacted is the license to use. Essentially meaning that the vendor (Steam) must be able to revoke and transfer said licences remotely at will.

Bottom line, it demands a remote kill-switch that works both online and off. Which in real-terms means that the licensed program needs constant permission handshaking, functionally "always online drm".

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

This reads like: 'Please guys, don't support the First Sale Doctrine or the game publishers will punish us. '

I don’t care what it sounds like.

If you have a counter argument provide it. Stop skirting the issue.

 

[RedVIper]

If I was a game developer I'd simply make the game "free" and make users log in with an account and have the purchases inside the game itself.

There I circumvented the stupid law.

 

[Zog]

I don’t care what it sounds like.

If you have a counter argument provide it. Stop skirting the issue.

You know how to make sure the Games as a Service games don't affect you? Don't buy them. I know some people think they need video games, like a drug but they don't. Game consumers have to stand up for themselves putting consumers first and be willing to walk away.

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

You know how to make sure the Games as a Service games don't affect you? Don't buy them. I know some people think they need video games, like a drug but they don't. Game consumers have to stand up for themselves putting consumers first and be willing to walk away.

Thanks for the tip? I don’t see how that addresses anything in my main argument regarding story driven single player games.

It seems like you’re making a pro-market argument while supporting t this anti-market law. It’s kind of confusing (and concerning) to be honest.

If you have to know my game spending habits, I pretty much only buy FromSoftware games these days.

 

[Nightrunner]

It will be just like with a physical copy, unless the DLC is on the disc it’s not included in the used sale.

Now you’re saying that used sales should only be allowed for physical because you have to take care of a physical copy? You guys are just jumping through all the hoops to keep used digital games away.

Erm stop putting words in my mouth. I never said used sales should only be allowed for physical copies I said if your copy is scratched or unusable due to some other reason and you want to sell it after say 6 months or a year you're SOL. With digital you don't run into that issue-the entire concept is flawed-used digital as your copy of the game after a few months of usage is exactly as it was on day 1 which is something that is impossible for physical copies.
You're comparing digital goods to physical ones which is the entire fallacy that led to this verdict. A finite number of physical copies of game "x" exist but the same supply issue does not occur for digital copies ergo the market will become even more ruthless for devs once you add in used digital sales.
Do you actually think publishers and storefronts are gonna let people sell their used games and be happy about it? Get ready for more price gouging, subscriptions and alternative methods of generating revenue in your games. You still haven't considering how they're gonna price the market to compensate for this so say goodbye to sales and cheap games-that's without even mentioning how they're gonna control the marketplace economy now, betcha they're gonna come up with some shady stuff to do that.

 

[A.Romero]

I own more than 650 games digitally distributed on several platforms (mostly PC/Steam) and I don't think this is a good idea. They will need to turn a profit somehow like for example selling them more expensive...

 

[Durask]

So everyone will move to the subscription model.

 

[Zog]

With physical games there are a finite number of used copies and all used copies were bought new first. That hasn’t killed the game industry and it may have helped it grow.. The same is true for digital games, each used copy would have to be bought new first.. I am not seeing the difference here.

Some of you are terrified that the publishers will take your games away. You don’t acknowledge that you, the consumer have the power here. The buying power.

Anyway, I don’t have anything new to say on this subject.

 

[FStubbs]

Why would I sell my used digital copy that is 100% the same as a new digital copy for less than full price? Outside of wanting to undercut Valve there is no loss of value.

With Gamestop the game was open, maybe manual was missing, disc could of been a little scartched etc...

My digital copy of BF V 1 year later is exactly the same as it was on day 1.

Outside of that well I don't really care about some giant corp. Devs/indies I care a bit but if its digital why not give them a cut? Valve could regulate it and take a cut of every "used" game sold.

Because I'd be willing to sell you an identical used digital copy for less than full price so I'll get the sale, unless someone else sells just a little bit lower, and the race to the bottom is on.

A used digital copy wouldn’t come with dlc either.

Also, here in the US if you buy a used game from a shop and it is scratched, you can return it within 7 days or so. It’s also not too hard to look at a disc before you leave the store. Surely you can do this no matter where you live.

I can sell the DLC too.

 

[eddie4]

I think if this were to happen, games would lose value quicker than now. So you buy a $60 game, play it for 2-3 months, get tired of it and want to sell it. You're gonna sell it for a bit less just so someone would buy it who doesn't want to spend $60 on the game. Let's say the price dropped to $45 in 6 months. Then you'd have to sell it for $45, but then you have people who use stolen CCs to buy games and resell them for cheaper, so no one buys your game, and you have to lower the price, and so on. So because there is no difference in buying a used and new copy, the prices just keep dropping. At least I think that's what would happen.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

This reads like: 'Please guys, don't support the First Sale Doctrine or the game publishers will punish us. '

Honestly, though, it's not difficult to see how a move like this could lead us down that path. It'll take some time, and more than just France enacting this, but it's a definite step in that direction.

 

[FStubbs]

If I was a game developer I'd simply make the game "free" and make users log in with an account and have the purchases inside the game itself.

There I circumvented the stupid law.

No you haven't. Your users can resell those uses in app purchases and under sell you.

 

[lukilladog]

This would be great to have everywhere, imagine going back to game makers begging you to take free expansions and content instead of selling the game.

 

[PhoenixTank]

The most diabolical solution to draw used digital closer to used physical: A chance for random bits of the game data to be flipped in used copies to artificially simulate wear & tear. Not guaranteed to happen, maybe your copy will be pristine, maybe the pdf manual is just a bit glitched somewhere. Maybe it'll always crash right before the final boss or just flat out refuse to start. Repeatedly sold on copies are subject to further potential degradation.

Of course this isn't sensible for a whole multitude of reasons, but the discussion got me thinking about it all the same.

Almost as evil: The used game must be uploaded directly from the seller to the 2nd hand buyer. Differentiation between sellers with good upload speeds and those without allows for different pricing. A thrifty and patient buyer may take their chances with a slower seller for a lower price.
Feasible, but awful. Edit: and probably allows for some sort of horrendous eGamestop business model to exist.

For clarity, I don't want either of these options! I personally don't see used sales as sustainable in a byte-for-byte copy era, so I'm offering terrible solutions instead. You're welcome.

 

[MagnesG]

You can force a law but you still can't stop people buying digital things without the ability to change ownership. Nintendo for example, would change the term 'pre-order' to 'pre-purchase' to avoid being sued. Maybe if this is to proceed, they will also change from buying digital to 'lifetime rent', and people are still gonna buy it. For other developers, they may have to be forced using more egregious business models to mitigate the situation.

If this truly happens though, not only the games industry will be affected, in fact pretty of all industries using the digital spaces would.

 

[kiiltz]

You understand that they'd be subject to the same ruling as Valve right? Essentially this would set a crazy precedent that would impact any form of account-based digital purchase. Apple, Microsoft, etc would all be impacted by this. It's envisaging that your licence is a limited resource, when that's not the case at all.

Games, music, films, TV shows, software

Do you think Amazons going to allow me to sell my read Kindle books? Or Apples going to let me sell my bought songs? Never going to happen. This shit will get revoked at appeal purely on the basis of dumbfuckery.

Yeah, I really don't think that a lot of people here to gloat "AH-HA! TAKE THAT, GREEDY VALVE" are grasping that this is not just about Steam.
This will affect at least to some extent dozens of services. Xbox Live, PSN, whatever that Nintendo garbage is called, all the storefronts on PC, the Apple store and iTunes, the Android Play store, Youtube Music, Google Stadia, Youtube Movies, ANY single subscription service that also allows individual purchases, etc, etc.

Yep and honestly it just looks to me like a really good way for piracy to proliferate. Maybe in the short term and maybe on a small scale this looks good but this would be like opening Pandora's Box.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

jshackles in complete and utter shambles.

 

[Charlie Tunoku]

Omg european government love to force people to work for them. This is super business hostile, i mean steam already provides the game plus infrastructure, now they will be forced to provide a platform that undermines their business against their will.

 

[Griffon]

For me this is simple. I'd rather buy a game on 70% sale and my money goes to support the developer.
Than buying a used game at an unpredictable (and likely higher) price and the creators of the game don't see a single cent of what I've spent (which in insight, isn't any different than piracy from their pov).

I do remember the used game market from back then, and even we as consumers are not winning in this equation. "New" copies will be ten times more expensive and used copies will remain at higher price for way longer than we're currently used to. Steam sales are 10 times better than the alternative we've known prior. For everyone.

If I enjoy a game, I want my money to go to the people who made it. It is especially critical in the case for many indies, who already struggle to survive right now.

PS:

If this truly happens though, not only the games industry will be affected, in fact pretty of all industries using the digital spaces would.

Yeah... this is especially retarded in the case of DRM-Free games/music/movies... the French government just assumes every storefront enforces DRM on everything (hell, Steam doesn't force it either, it's a dev choice). This is retarded boomer logic at its best.

 

[Snake_Plissken]

Used digital? How would that even work

I could see it possibly working. They already have a system in place where you can sell cards, emotes, etc. Couldn't they just implement a marketplace that work in a similar way? Once sold, the game would transfer from your library to the other person's? Maybe it's not eve possible... just a thought, though

 

[Snake_Plissken]

Omg european government love to force people to work for them. This is super business hostile, i mean steam already provides the game plus infrastructure, now they will be forced to provide a platform that undermines their business against their will.

Instead of business hostile, could it be considered consumer friendly? Why should companies have more power than the people? Here in the US individuals are crucified for declaring bankruptcy, walking away from debt, etc. Companies are rewarded for doing so and seem to even receive sympathy. That just seems backwards to me.

 

[What A Shame...]

This is too stupid to be true. I don't see how Valve (and every other digital distributor) will bend to this and still somehow remain operational.

 

[petran79]

I'll sell 10 BD with Steam games on ebay for 100€ (steam cracks provided)

 

[HoodWinked]

isn't it great when the scummiest business model free to play ends up being completely unscathed by idiotic rulings like this.

 

[makaveli60]

To be honest I've only read the first page but still no explanation how can you "resell" a digital game even after years of debating this. There is no difference between your digital game and the one offered in the digital store. The only option is refunding but reselling digital games is a bullshit I can't even understand how others can't comprehend. Maybe somoeone finally can enlighten me but it hasn't happened yet...

 

[Katsura]

In the spirit of this ruling they'd probably lose that argument. I paid $60 and I can sell it.

I disagree. With Stadia, the game isn't even on your device, it's installed on a Google server

 

[Mistershine.]

What if valve add a €500 transaction fee to each sale, or all games are instead subscription based with the sub being 100 years?

 

[Chandler55]

its kind of weird that movies can be sold for consumption just because their system is movie tickets and movie theatres. cause in both cases the artist is trying to sell an experience, theyre not selling the movie ticket or the disk file

i feel like people are protecting this archaic consumer rights law just because its against big companies, which is cool and all but its also gonna hurt a lot of indie devs and i hate to tell them suck it up when theyre already scraping by

 

[Maestr0]

Welcome to my country, sounds fair but complex

 

[What A Shame...]

Welcome to my country, sounds fair but complex

Wha?

It doesn't sound the slightest bit fair. This is greatly advantageous for consumers.

 

[Kadayi]

Yep and honestly it just looks to me like a really good way for piracy to proliferate. Maybe in the short term and maybe on a small scale this looks good but this would be like opening Pandora's Box.

I think there is also the matter of what do the creators get out of it. If I sell a second-hand book/CD etc there's no obligation for me to pay the creator anything. If I say play Jonathan Blows next indie title and then after a month decide to sell it back through Steam, sure Valve gets a cut in terms of it being their service I'm using (that makes sense as there are costs involved) but there's nothing that says I owe Jo Blow a goddamn red cent. The entire idea destroys the long tail on sales for anything digital in the long run, and creators end up getting screwed. The likes of Rockstar, CDP etc can forget ever selling 50+ million copies because a lot of people would just sell their licenses back. to fund their next AAA purchases. The entire idea is just a massive money drain on the gaming industry.

As Sentenza says, people have too much of a hard-on for 'Take that Valve' to quite grasp how demented this entire judgement is because it goes beyond what Valve have to do and is applicable to any account-based digital system. Games, books, music, film, software.

The only effective way to combat this is to remove the idea of digital ownership wholesale and go over to pure subscription models ala Netflix, Spotify, GaaS but that's not really viable for Indie developers, and as a primary source of income for the big publishers in lieu of actual sales I don't think Ubisoft would be keen on Uplay+ money alone, and personally I'm not keen on the idea of having to pay a monthly fee for all my digital entertainment sources either.

 

[DiscoJer]

Yeah, this seems like it would lead either to subscription models or more loot boxes/free to play stuff. And it seems more likely to hurt smaller creators, not just games, but artists, authors, etc, if digital goods have to be able to be resold. Valve (or whatever the seller originally was) might not get a cut, but that's only 1/3 of the money. The other 2/3 goes to the creator. They're the ones losing out.

 

[shaddam]

Oh no no no no reselling my games? Subscribe to stadia and enjoy your ownershipless future

 

[RedVIper]

No you haven't. Your users can resell those uses in app purchases and under sell you.

The law applies to in game purchases? I very much doubt it.

If so everything will just move to subscriptions, those can't be resold.

 

[Ogrebushi]

With physical games there are a finite number of used copies and all used copies were bought new first. That hasn’t killed the game industry and it may have helped it grow.. The same is true for digital games, each used copy would have to be bought new first.. I am not seeing the difference here.

Some of you are terrified that the publishers will take your games away. You don’t acknowledge that you, the consumer have the power here. The buying power.

Anyway, I don’t have anything new to say on this subject.

Buying power is great and all but it means nothing in this case. Sure we can refuse to buy but they in turn can just plain refuse to sell anything.
These big game corps like EA etc aren't in it for "making art" and even the smaller studios that are closer to that still have to eat. If we the consumer snub our noses at anything that cant be resold (especially with them getting nothing out of the deal) they cant eat if they cant make enough because resales eat too much into the bottom line. (We all laugh at konami not bothering to do anything game wise with their IP in this nicer market even)

I'd wonder more if France or the EU (if they adopt these laws) can do without media completely? Seems more like in all the big companies best interests to just withhold -all- media from countries making this law.
Its not food or other "Necessities" so its not like the government can force these companies to supply these things, which they might not if the profit margin goes to shit

Though maybe its just selfishness a bit on my part, I am more of a hoarder of games and shuddered at the thought of reselling my physical goods, and i enjoy the cheap humble bundle etc offers that exist that let me amass more into my digital library for a fraction of full retail prices which would vanish.
(Also all the worry about single player experience games mentioned above)

 

[DoctorEkkoUK]

man, I wish I could sell my Steam library. Never play it any more and have tons of games on there

 

[MilkyJoe]

More clown world

 

[TheWanderingOgre]

France dropping those bombs!

We need this more than ever in the face of the "all digital future".

 

[Dontero]

Used digital sales?
Over publishers dead bodies. This isn't even up to Valve.

And what they will do ? Not release games just to spite law ?
Games will go back to 2004 when every game had ability to be sold. Nothing will change.

Used digital? How would that even work

Same as used physical. Stores will have to implement feature where you can transfer license to someone else at cost of yours.

Keep in mind that Valve as the right to appeal the decision, and that this text has not yet be applied. But as stated, yes, it make a good precedent.

That was 3 years court battle with underyling EU laws. They can appeal but EU laws are pretty clear about sale of used software.
Oracle already lost battle few years back over this but back then laws were not yet that clear but now it is different.

I'm not sure this is a good thing.

Oh people will be able to sell their games. The horror. Just like they can now with console games and how they could do it just 10 years back on PC.

This would fuck over devs, especially small ones.

Without used games market and piracy there would be no small devs. Gaming is at current place because there were used games markets and pirated games which popularized gaming a lot. Without both market would be 10 times smaller and would not accommodate for small devs like it didn't before.

Hopefully there are EU regulations that would prevent that. Maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in?

It is EU laws that allow for resale of digital goods. French courts just tried to enforce EU rules.

 

[Portugeezer]

There is no degradation in 1's and 0's, if someone is reselling a game then it will be cheaper and you might as well buy cheaper version which isn't being sold by the publisher. If this ever became a thing it will negatively affect publishers and indie devs, unless they can also get a cut, and it will probably be more than Steams 30%...

Buy a game for $60; resell for $59; make $20 after Steam and publisher cuts.

 

[kraspkibble]

not sure how that'd work but it'd be cool if we could have the ability to sell our digital games.

right now on Steam you have the option of removing a game permanently from your library. if you want it back you need to buy it again. just change it so that when you decide to remove it from your library you are offered some money back for it. off the top of my head you could maybe get back an amount based on things like the date you bought it, the release date of the game, how much you paid for it, how many hours you've played, how popular the game is, etc...

publishers will fight to avoid this ever happening of course but i'd like to see us be able to sell digital titles.

 

[Gamezone]

It would be better if Valve did this because they care about their consumers, not because they are forced to. Adding this as a feature would also be another fuck you to the Epic Game Store.