Support NeoGAF

[TylerDurden4321]

Update1
Results from Sunday before the pCARS2 review embargo:

Original OP
As the thread title says, tell us your prediction for the review scores[metacritic] and player base after one week for

Project CARS 2, Forza Motorsport 7 and Gran Turismo Sport.

The titles are likely to have separate review threads that you might want to post your prediction to, but this thread here is for showing the differences head to head.


It's fine if you want to predict just the metascore, not the player base, but please don't just predict the metascore of one or two titles, do it for all three.
It's also fine to just post your numbers, but what's actually more interesting is the reasoning behind it, why you might think one of the games will do very well in this category, bad in the other one or why a game will perform very different from previous installments.
If you want to make any further predictions like "FM7 player base will only take off after XB1X is released", go ahead, post that too.
But please, tell your story after posting the numbers. Best practice is to not hide your prediction numbers in a gigantic paragraph of non-formatted text.


Deadline:
The review embargo for Project CARS 2 will lift September 18 at 3pm CEST.






-----------------------------------
some helping numbers:

Metacritic:

All Gran Turismo sales since 1997

Forza Motorsport 6 had over 400,000 Ultimate Edition players in the few pre-release days. A week after release the leaderboards showed 1.4 million player entries.
Forza Horizon 3 sold 2.5 million units in 2016 alone.

Project CARS sold 2 million units within 18 months.


---------------------------------------------

Not sure how we'll get the player numbers yet.
In Forza 7 we can get the player count from the leaderboard of the first mandatory all-assists-on race, I'm not sure how we're going to do it for pCARS2 and GTS. Hopefully the license tests in GTS will have leaderboards. In pCARS2 we might be able extrapolate something from NPD and Steamspy.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Predict all will be 80+ not sure which will be best reviewed though

Player base will be GTS>FM7>PCARS 2 easily.

 

[FelipeMGM]

reception Im going with a bold F7>PC2>GTS

player base wise I think it will be GTS>F7>PC2, at least for this year.

 

[Kysen]

Reception PCars>F7>GTS
Player base GTS>F7>PCars

No idea about scores. GTS is going to boosted on nostalgia and the fact that this studio has released nothing to date this generation (staggering). Kinda unfair but it is what it is.

 

[Blobbers]

GTS is not gonna sniff anything higher than an 85, given how strict reviewers are these days with games that have no proper campaigns. I'll go with

Forza 7 - 88
P Cars - 84
GT Sport - 84

with GTS probably being the best-selling of the bunch

 

[catashtrophe]

Forza will score the best
GTS will sell the best
PC2 will be the best car simulator

Score Prediction:
Forza - 88
PC2 - 85
GTS - 82

 

[JamboGT]

They released a game during this generation, just not for this generation.

 

[Servbot24]

Forza 7 - 89
P Cars - 83
GTS - 78

Sorry to say. I miss the glory days of GT.

 

[offshore]

After a week? GTS > FM7 > PC2
In the long run? FM7 > GTS > PC2

Any previous talk that a Forza game would outsell GT was... ridiculous. I don't think it's as clear-cut right now; although that is likely to be because GTS will do badly, rather than FM7 setting the world on fire. I think GTS is going to flop, really hard. I don't even think it will get to 80 on MC, it looks that bad a package.

 

[rodrigolfp]

i only care about how accurate the physics will be. so PC2>Forza7>GTS...

 

[danowat]

GTS will piss over all three in terms of sales and player base, it won't even be close.

PCars 2 will be 2nd, as it's multiplat, Forza 7 last, probably by quite some margin.

As for review score, if the rumblings are correct, PCars 2 will win.

PC2 - 90
GTS - 75
F7 - 80

 

[sems4arsenal]

Thing about GTS's reviews is that they fixed a lot of the major complaints of the series (no standard cars, better sounds, livery editor, better online, etc).

It also has enough content to not warrant a low score. GT5 Prologue got 80 MC.

 

[fresquito]

I've been thinking reviews FM7>PC2>GTS for a while, but I'm doubtful now. The general outlets will probably stand by this, but smaller sites I see them not finding FM7 all that great after playing PC2 for a while. So, I see a chance for PC2 to beat FM7. I'll still play safe and say:

Reviews: FM7~PC2>GTS
Short term sales: GTS>FM7>PC2
Long term sales: GTS>PC2~FM7

In the long run I think PC2 might catch up to FM7, because I think many PS4 owners will gravitate towards PC2 once they discover what's behind GTS. On Xbox I don't expect PC2 to sell all that much because FM7. Even when in my opinion FM7 is the lesser game, looks like it will be good enough to make all Forza fans happy and reluctant to look elsewhere. On PC I think it will have very long legs, but we're still talking about a sim, so nothing super huge.

GTS will probably have short legs, even when they patch the hell out of it.

FM7 I see doing just fine on console, not on PC. On console it will be limited by the install base, and even though it's the flagship title for the new Xbox, I don't see it beating FM's best sellers.

 

[op_ivy]

Upper 80s for pcars2 2 and fm7, lower 80s for gt

I'm picking up pcars2 and fm7 and expect to be bored with forza shortly after launch but play pcars2 for a long time. Can t wait for next friday

 

[dugdug]

Regarding MC for these games, are there any critics who are legit into motorsport? I'd like to see some reviews from people who are legit into racing, not critics who were assigned the game because no one else at the site wanted it.

Edit: which isn't to say their opinion isn't valid, I'm just looking for a different viewpoint.

 

[cooldawn]

REVIEWS

Project CARS 2 - 92
Will win out based on variety of disciplines, the largest number of circuits and it's fully dynamic environments. Also be deemed to be the most authentic of the three.

Forza Motorsport 7 - 85
Will be praised for pushing technologies on XBOX ONE X and have the most consistent performance. Although it has over 700 cars there's still a lack of variety compared to Project CARS 2. Maybe feel a bit stale or clinical compared to other racing games and no substantial esport integration.

Gran Turismo Sport - 82
Will be praised for a complete refresh of the series but, ultimately, it will lose points based on the severe lack of content and offline players will not be catered for. Esport focus reduced the scope for breadth and depth. Still the most classy racing game with exceptional visuals but the removal of full dynamics also reduce scoring possibilities.

PLAYER BASE (week one)
Project CARS 2 - 580k
Forza Motorsport 7 - 620k
Gran Turismo Sport - 1.3m

EDIT: Forgot two titles are multi-platform so adjusted figures accordingly.

 

[TheAdmiester]

I think they'll land in these ranges:

FM7 = 85-92

PC2 = 80-90

GTS = 75-82

Reasoning (from what I think a reviewer would judge):

FM7 = Gargantuan content, praise for the Motorsport series finally having something resembling dynamic conditions, best sound, customisation, rock solid 60fps and probably something about "4K visuals and raw detail", possibly something about the "thrill" of racing (such as the new shaky camera and enhanced sound). Coming off the tail of FH3, despite purposefully being the track-only one, it could receive a lower score (85-87 or so) because some people might prefer that it was open world

PC2 = Could be low-ish depending on whether or not the reviewer appreciates the authenticity of motorsports versus accessibility (a la FM7) + framerate dips. Could be rated high for physics, Livetrack stuff, being essentially "PCars 1 but done right", fully dynamic conditions, great sound, ridiculous amount of tracks, configurability

GTS = Will be praised for ditching the PS2 level content and for its graphics, will likely receive criticism for also cutting a lot of PS3 "future proof" content, lack of real career mode, worst sound by a long shot, lacking dynamic conditions, barely any real tracks, sterile feel (ie. lacking physics and/or no sense of speed), framerate dips

 

[Frostman]

Forza - 87
PC2 - 86
GTS - 80

Sales - GTS>PC2>FM7 (Long term. Short term Forza will sell more than PC2)

 

[Wiped89]

ooh, nice

My take:

GT Sport: 77
Forza 7: 93
Project Cars 2: 85

Player base - week one:
GT Sport: 1.5 million
Forza 7: 350,000
Project Cars: 100,000

 

[N21]

I don't think PC2 will reach FM7 in sales because a lot of us know what to expect and oh boy... that framerate. Also, it took 18 months to reach 2 million and I think Forza mainline entries do that on the low side. GTS will sell lower than expected but higher than FM7 or PC2. Review wise, I think GTS may have shot but I think FM7 or PC2 has got this in the bag.

A partial bit from wiki (take it with a grain of salt):

As of February 2010, the Forza games have sold over 10 million copies[2] since the release of Forza Motorsport in May 2005

There's no way PC2 is touching FM7, I wouldn't even be surprised if the Forza series (without the Horizon sub series) has reached 15-20 million.

Anyway, I've been wrong before and could be wrong right now.

 

[Jimrpg]

Metacritic
Project Cars 2 - 80
Forza 7 - 80
GT Sport - 70

Me -
Project Cars 2 - 6 - Driving was one of the worst aspects of the first one and I don't think much has changed.
Forza 7 - 7 - probably won't get round to playing this but I'm expecting around a 7 for playing forza one too many times.
GT Sport - 6 - Again more of the same which makes it boring. Campaign looks really weak sauce and having to do more or less the same license tests again is just lame.

 

[N21]

Metacritic
Project Cars 2 - 80
Forza 7 - 80
GT Sport - 70

Me -
Project Cars 2 - 6 - Driving was one of the worst aspects of the first one and I don't think much has changed.
Forza 7 - 7 - probably won't get round to playing this but I'm expecting around a 7 for playing forza one too many times.
GT Sport - 6 - Again more of the same which makes it boring. Campaign looks really weak sauce and having to do more or less the same license tests again is just lame.

A 70 rating! That's pretty crazy to even think of. It would be a big shock if a console (not handheld) GT got a 70.

 

[Mascot]

Fuck, I didn't realise FM6 outscored pCARS.
Legit shook, no hope for humanity etc.

Wild stab:

pCARS 2: 91%
GTS: 83%
FM7: 85%

Sales-wise, GTS > pCARS2 > FM7

 

[Yearsoflurking]

Gts 77
Fm7 88
Pcars2 85

 

[SnowFlakeCake]

After a week? GTS > FM7 > PC2
In the long run? FM7 > GTS > PC2

Any previous talk that a Forza game would outsell GT was... ridiculous. I don't think it's as clear-cut right now; although that is likely to be because GTS will do badly, rather than FM7 setting the world on fire. I think GTS is going to flop, really hard. I don't even think it will get to 80 on MC, it looks that bad a package.

Some people on this forum are pure delusional, like come on bruh. It is very obvious that Forza will review best, followed by PCars 2 and GT Sport. But sales wise, it will not be close at all sales wise with GT Sport selling way more than the other two.

GT Sport ain't selling 10 million, I do agree with that. But it's going to have 0 problems outselling F7 and PCars combined, franchise wise those other two are nothing compared to GT. I don't think people realise that the other two franchises are pretty niche. I think Forza Horizon is a bigger franchise than the sim games now, come to think of it.

 

[danowat]

There's no way PC2 is touching FM7, I wouldn't even be surprised if the Forza series (without the Horizon sub series) has reached 15-20 million.

Anyway, I've been wrong before and could be wrong right now.

How is the player base of the XBO as a whole these days?, surely a multiplatform game is going to out perform a single platform game on the system with a lower install base?

 

[borges]

FM7 => 89
PC2 => 86
GTS => 80

GTS => Best seller (Playstation users are waiting for it since forever, it will sell a ton)
PC2 => 2nd best seller (Its multiplatform on console and PC)
FM7 => 3rd (It will sell a lot, right now its the flagship title for X)

 

[chromatic9]

FM7 89
PC2 85
GTS 74

Sales GTS>FM7>PC2

PC2 FM7 sales will be close however, could go either way.

 

[MaDKaT]

GT Sport: 76
Forza 7: 91
Project Cars 2: 86

Really couldn't tell you on player base. GT Sports sales will be really front loaded on nostalgia alone and will probably have a high peak and then a steep drop off as word gets out that it really isnt GT and more of a GT Lite Online Prologue. Im prettly hopeful for Forza 7 since it is cross platform with PC and would like to see it move some serious numbers. Project CARS 2 is an unknown for me. The driving model of the first game was kind of meh to me and the VR was not smooth so I didn't keep up with it but I will no doubt try again if the VR is better.

 

[SolarMystic]

GTS: High playerbase, mediocre to terrible reviews

Forza: Medium playerbase, good reviews

PC2: No idea, still a new franchise. Looks good though.

GTS: 65
Forza: 89
PC2: 73

 

[Fox Mulder]

Forza 92
GT Sports 76
Pcars 85

Forza will score the best, but gt sport will sell better as usual. Pcars looks solid.

Forza 5 got blasted and is the lowest rated entry in the franchise as a pared down launch title. GT Sport is releasing four years into the ps4. People should demand better.

 

[Frostman]

GTS: High playerbase, mediocre to terrible reviews

Forza: Medium playerbase, good reviews

PC2: No idea, still a new franchise. Looks good though.

GTS: 65
Forza: 89
PC2: 73[ /QUOTE]

incredible.

 

[danowat]

GTS: High playerbase, mediocre to terrible reviews

Forza: Medium playerbase, good reviews

PC2: No idea, still a new franchise. Looks good though.

GTS: 65
Forza: 89
PC2: 73[ /QUOTE]

incredible.

Fitting

 

[N21]

How is the player base of the XBO as a whole these days?

Not that bad, not the best but not bad. I just think MS need to turn the Windows 10 XB users into regular paying customers because the Xbox is clearly suffering and Windows 10 Xbox users are clearly the problem.

surely a multiplatform game is going to out perform a single platform game on the system with a lower install base.

Lower install base means nothing, we also have examples of games succeeding on the Switch (Independent mostly) and games failing on the PS4.

Plus, Forza 6 sold over 1 million copies in 2015. Here's the part from MS's new year statement talking about it:

Every title in our exclusive 2015 holiday games line-up – Halo 5: Guardians, Rise of the Tomb Raider, Forza Motorsport 6 and Gears of War: Ultimate Edition – sold over 1 million units, and the number of Xbox One gamers who played Microsoft Studios-published titles more than doubled compared to 2014.

https://news.xbox.com/2016/01/04/greatest-games-extends-to-2016/

 

[SolarMystic]

incredible.

Yes?

 

[Gandalf]

GTS - 84
Forza 7 - 87
PC2 - 81

I think GTS sell the most.

 

[xrnzaaas]

I expect GTS to have the strongest debut and to get at least 80 Metacritic (because it's Gran Turismo ). Project CARS 2 should review better, but I don't think it's going to sell a shitload of units on launch. Forza 7 will probably have a similar start to Forza 6, well maybe a little worse because it is getting a lot of hate from the fans for not enough new content. But it shouldn't be that big of a problem for Microsoft, because all Forza games sell good for the weeks (and months) to come.

In my case only SMS will see my money this year. I won't buy Forza 7 until it drops at least 50% because Maple Valley is the only "new" thing I'm really looking forward to and that's just not enough. I won't buy GTS until they implement a traditional singleplayer mode and expand the car list.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Metacritic
Project CARS 2: 87
Forza Motorsport 7: 87
Gran Turismo Sport: 78

Reasoning:
Project CARS 2 is supposed to feel much better with a gamepad now, it offers a deeper simulation than the other two, with more things simulated like individual suspension and steering geometry that will change the feedback of every car.
Forza will be praised for the graphics and especially the car selection again, but I'm not sure that the career and handling model will feel fresh enough - the overhaul on the actual gameplay side might not be enough for many reviewers.
Gran Turismo Sport is really hard to predict. It has many factors set against it:
- early on a safety-rating matchmaking system can result in a lot of chaos,
- many review outlets don't have dedicated racing fans that are familiar with all the tracks, used to drive according to the racing line PD took out and will have a hard time to get settled it. Time many reviewers might not feel the reward justifies,
- physics wise things like the braking distance are much more accurate than in older GT games, but the actual handling - as in "cornering" - feels very much like another GT title, not new and not "professional simulator" like an iRacing or rFactor.


Players
pCARS2: 500.000 (with 50% PC / 30% PS4 / 20% XB1)
FM7: 1.000.000 (with 40% PC, 60% XB1)
GTS: 1.200.000

Reasoning:
pCARS2 numbers will increase with good word of mouth and price cuts, the PC version has VR going for it, XB1 will be low, because many of the typical day1 buyers will wait for XB1X.
FM7 numbers on PC will be great because of basically zero piracy, a demo that will probably play really well and most of all, FM will basically have a monopoly if you want to casually drive the old Honda Civic around a real world race track with nice graphics. The console version will do better once XB1X is out.
GTS will perform really bad for a Gran Turismo game because of the online focus. The average Gran Turismo player wants to start in an old, used shitbox that will have 20hp more after an oil change, then put tuning upgrades on the car, overtune it so much that the AI doesn't have a chance even though the player is driving terribly, then grind out enough money to buy a GT-R R34 and tune that to over 800hp. Once production cars aren't a viable option against the AI in the career, they start losing interest in the game.
Completely not what GTS is. In my opinion they passed up on about 8 million additional lifetime sales with this online E-Sports tactic. However, after a few weeks, the racing might actually be good and once the price drops (which will be really soon, at least for used copies) more people might want to give it a try.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Metacritic
Project CARS 2: 87
Forza Motorsport 7: 87
Gran Turismo Sport: 78

Reasoning:
Project CARS 2 is supposed to feel much better with a gamepad now, it offers a deeper simulation than the other two, with more things simulated like individual suspension and steering geometry that will change the feedback of every car.
Forza will be praised for the graphics and especially the car selection again, but I'm not sure that the career and handling model will feel fresh enough - the overhaul on the actual gameplay side might not be enough for many reviewers.
Gran Turismo Sport is really hard to predict. It has many factors set against it:
- early on a safety-rating matchmaking system can result in a lot of chaos,
- many review outlets don't have dedicated racing fans that are familiar with all the tracks, used to drive according to the racing line PD took out and will have a hard time to get settled it. Time many reviewers might not feel the reward justifies,
- physics wise things like the braking distance are much more accurate than in older GT games, but the actual handling - as in "cornering" - feels very much like another GT title, not new and not "professional simulator" like an iRacing or rFactor.


Players
pCARS2: 500.000 (with 50% PC / 30% PS4 / 20% XB1)
FM7: 1.000.000 (with 40% PC, 60% XB1)
GTS: 1.200.000

Reasoning:
pCARS2 numbers will increase with good word of mouth and price cuts, the PC version has VR going for it, XB1 will be low, because many of the typical day1 buyers will wait for XB1X.
FM7 numbers on PC will be great because of basically zero piracy, a demo that will probably play really well and most of all, FM will basically have a monopoly if you want to casually drive the old Honda Civic around a real world race track with nice graphics. The console version will do better once XB1X is out.
GTS will perform really bad for a Gran Turismo game because of the online focus. The average Gran Turismo player wants to start in an old, used shitbox that will have 20hp more after an oil change, then put tuning upgrades on the car, overtune it so much that the AI doesn't have a chance even though the player is driving terribly, then grind out enough money to buy a GT-R R34 and tune that to over 800hp. Once production cars aren't a viable option against the AI in the career, they start losing interest in the game.
Completely not what GTS is. In my opinion they passed up on about 8 million additional lifetime sales with this online E-Sports tactic. However, after a few weeks, the racing might actually be good and once the price drops (which will be really soon, at least for used copies) more people might want to give it a try.

GTSport has a racing line. It was seen in a video recently.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

GTSport has a racing line. It was seen in a video recently.

they really don't know what they are doing. I thought it was a good idea for a competitive online racer that really wants you to learn the tracks, to get rid of the racing line. Their corner marker system was also good. Then they had this crazy *BRAKE* blinking idea, which was just ridiculously bad and now it's the racing line again? Damn...

 

[Joe White]

In review scores:

1. Project Cars 2 - 90
2. Forza 7 - 89
3. GT Sport - 74

And in sales: PC2 > GTS > F7 (this would require that ppl choose PC2 instead of GTS, but without it GTS > F7 > PC2).

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Forza 7 - 3 Million - 87%

PCars2 - 4.5 Million - 85%

GT: Sport - 7.5 Million - 85% - Overrated by most the Sony sites which inflates the deserved score

 

[sems4arsenal]

they really don't know what they are doing. I thought it was a good idea for a competitive online racer that really wants you to learn the tracks, to get rid of the racing line. Their corner marker system was also good. Then they had this crazy *BRAKE* blinking idea, which was just ridiculously bad and now it's the racing line again? Damn...

All 3 of these things are options that you can toggle I reckon.

 

[chrominance]

Not sure I can speculate on absolute numbers, as it would expose just how little I know about how these three franchises sell. I do expect GTS > Forza > PCars2 but damned if I know even what ballpark they'll each be in. Forza miiiiight get a slight boost because of One X support/quasi-launch title, but who knows. GTS is a wildcard; I don't know how many people will buy blindly or love the online focus versus how many will stay away because the campaign mode isn't anything like previous GT careers.

Metacritic I'm expecting to be something like this:
GTS: 80. I expect reviews will be more polarizing than usual, but I don't expect a lot of people to be outright angry about the online stuff. Some will think it a valiant attempt at refreshing the franchise, some will think it as having lost some of its soul, they'll probably cancel each other out.

Forza 7: 87. Essentially the same ballpark as 6. Not a huge shakeup for the franchise, business as usual. The big question is how much will people dock it for being similar to previous games, versus praising it for the expansion in content. Given how repetitive the genre can be between iterations, I expect scores to lean slightly favourable.

PCars 2: 85. This is a wild guess based on pure conjecture. I do expect PCars2 to be better than its predecessor and to be lauded for that improvement as well as competing ably with the big boys, but honestly I have no clue how good the game looks.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

All 3 of these things are options that you can toggle I reckon.

They got cold feet, even though their original idea was actually the right and good for a competitive online racer that really wants you to learn the tracks, work on your lap times and consistency.

When they first said that there was going to be no racing line, I praised the idea, but at the same time I wanted the racing line for beginners, then a mode between racing line and just corner markers (like an indicator for braking zones, lighter red for safe-bet and darker red that might have you overshoot the apex, which is good if for example you want to try an aggressive overtake or if you want to take a 180° corner like 2 90° corners). Even Forza's idea with the slight earnings increase for turning the line off is not enough (and way not enough money). But we're off-topic here.


It's interesting that most are expecting pCARS2 to do well with reviewers, lots of people thinking it's going to be over 85. Not a safe bet, if you look at pCARS1's metascore and considering that it was something completely new back then and might now be "more of the same"... also Assetto Corsa's metacritic is really low and it's a fantastic driving sim, much better than pCARS1, the performance and most of all the no-frills approach dragged it down and pCARS2 doesn't have much of a career either with everything unlocked directly away (except for like 3 racing series or so I think, but no cars or tracks are locked).

 

[Fortinbras]

Reviews:

Forza 7: 87
PC2: 88
GTS: 78

Player Base:

GTS > PC2 > Forza 7

 

[TylerDurden4321]

hmm, I sure thought this thread would grow faster and bigger.

 

[TheAdmiester]

hmm, I sure thought this thread would grow faster and bigger.

Just wait for this thread's thelastword post

 

[baberunisei]

Why is everyone predicting bad scores for GT Sport?

 

[seattle6418]

Metacritic:

Project Cars 2 - 91
Forza - 82
Gran Turismo - 73

Reasoning:

PCars - This game is developed by sim racers, so it checks all the major bullet points. They´ve learned from the bugs in the first game, they have an impeccable car roster, best track selection to date, great graphics, options, realism, i just don´t see reviewers taking points from this game. It will depend a lot on how it feels to drive, but i think the impressions will be more than positive.

Forza - More of the same. I don´t know why, but the press always loves Forza, so it will get good reviews despite the suspicious handling model. I was ready to love this game when it finally came to PC, but i found out that Apex was utter trash with a wheel and assists off. Nothing made sense, but i know people like this, so it will review well and sell just fine. Hoping the demo changes my mind this time.

Gran Turismo - There´s still a lot of optimism and benefit of the doubt on this one, but once reviewers see this for what really is - normal career mode isn´t fooling anyone following this game closely - the feedback will be harsh. After a while online play might actually be fun and challenging, but the reviews will analyse this game for what the series stands for, and despite the jaw dropping visuals and some neat features, this game has more flaws than redeeming qualities.

Sales:

Gran Turismo - 1.2 million
Project Cars - 750 k
Forza - 600 k

Bonus round: end of the year sales.

Gran Turismo 2.5 million
Project Cars - 1.5 million
Forza - 1.1 million

Reasoning:

Gran Turismo - It still has the brand, but it will be worse than 5 Prologue and 6. Can´t see this game moving more units because there´s zero hype for it, and casuals alone won´t put this into GT1,2,3,4 or 5 status.

Project Cars - The first one moved a lot of units, and despite the bad feeling for some, a much better game should be able to at least match the original one.

Forza - I also agree that Horizon might already be a bigger franchise. Forza always did good numbers, but i don´t see lighting up the sales charts like some expect to.

It´s difficult to predict sales for shorter periods of time, we are used to guess the LTD numbers, but in the spirit of this thread a time frame has to be set. I don´t know how front loaded each one of those games will be.

This thread will pick up, it´s just early and there´s no controversy - yet - just wait until the first reviews.