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[dex3108]

So after PS4 Pro reveal last night and info that reconstructive rendering method will be used for 4K (upscale/uprendering however you want to all it) i noticed something really interesting. People liked whole idea of reconstruction and most people are ok with it. Then i remembered Killzone Shadow Fall case where people are literally sued Sony/Guerrilla Games for using rendering method to achieve 1080p.

Also whole that thing spawned this thread that is interesting to read today

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=778172

It is interesting how things changed in only 2 years

 

[GinoFelino]

The reactions are so different, it's almost like those issues are not the same thing at all!

 

[Diprosalic]

1080p adaption was probably a lot higher at the launch of this gen than 4k is now.
I just assume though, no real data.

 

[Durante]

The reactions are so different, it's almost like those issues are not the same thing at all!

They are pretty close really. All examples of actually shading fewer pixels per frame than you display.

 

[Branduil]

The reactions are so different, it's almost like those issues are not the same thing at all!

They're pretty much the same techniques.

 

[wapplew]

It's higher than 1080p, what's not OK about it?

 

[LookAtMeGo]

I thought I remembered people being mad because it was played off like it was native 1080p until someone figured out it wasnt after the game cane out. Like they werent very transparent about it or something.

 

[deriks]

Okami HD is uprendering and it's one of the best things ver. They should do more of it

 

[dex3108]

I thought I remembered people being mad because it was played off like it was native 1080p until someone figured out it wasnt after the game cane out. Like they werent very transparent about it or something.

To be honest current Sony language is convoluted a bit too.

 

[King_Moc]

They are pretty close really. All examples of actually shading fewer pixels per frame than you display.

Is this going to look as bad as Killzones multiplayer then? That looked really blurry. Wasn't it literally rendering only half of the vertical pixels?

 

[Luigiv]

They are pretty close really. All examples of actually shading fewer pixels per frame than you display.

I think he means in terms of context. Shadowfall's 1080pr was never properly disclosed before the games launch (leading to people feeling tricked), whilst with PS4P's 4Kinda focus Sony is being very open and forward about it.

 

[Snefer]

native resolution rendering in all renderpasses will forever be a thing of the past. Its just not an efficient solution once you reach a certain resolution. In some ways its the equivalent of LODs, shouldn't people be angry that devs are "cheating" by using SIMPLER MODELS! Upscaling, temporal reconstruction etc will be a thing going forward, I know lots of games, both that I worked on and games that I know people that worked on that used many similar techniques in the past and no one noticed, its just that they didnt get "caught" the same way guerilla did with the MP for Killzone for example.

You waste less resources that you can put in somewhere else. Its a win/win.

 

[zoukka]

I thought I remembered people being mad because it was played off like it was native 1080p until someone figured out it wasnt after the game cane out. Like they werent very transparent about it or something.

Your average consumer thinks PS4 Pro outputs native 4k, let's not fool ourselves here.

 

[Vintage]

The outrage was because Sony marketed Killzone as 1080p/60fps PS4 powerhorse and it tuned out to be a lie. Everyone is open about upscaling now, people know how it works and realised that it's better than having low rez native output.

 

[jediyoshi]

I think he means in terms of context. Shadowfall's 1080pr was never properly disclosed before the games launch (leading to people feeling tricked), whilst with PS4P's 4Kinda focus Sony is being very open and forward about it.

Yet in actual discourse, people are ending up throwing around 4K as a catchall between natively rendered and upscaled, inadvertently or not.

 

[LordRaptor]

It is interesting how things changed in only 2 years

Lowered Expectations: The Generation continues

 

[jediyoshi]

The outrage was because Sony marketed Killzone as 1080p/60fps PS4 powerhorse and it tuner out to be a lie.

But you just did it here now as well. Without making the distinction of how that output is actually being rendered, it's as valid as the 4K claims now for the PS4 Pro.

 

[dex3108]

The outrage was because Sony marketed Killzone as 1080p/60fps PS4 powerhorse and it tuned out to be a lie. Everyone is open about upscaling now, people know how it works and realised that it's better than having low rez native output.

How many developers will be open about non native 4K is the real question. In most cases they will slap 4K support on the box and that will be it.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

To be honest current Sony language is convoluted a bit too.

Your average consumer thinks PS4 Pro outputs native 4k, let's not fool ourselves here.

Fair enough.

 

[Dunkley]

Your average consumer thinks PS4 Pro outputs native 4k, let's not fool ourselves here.

"You realize you will see every game in 4K as your output right?"

 

[benny_a]

I think he means in terms of context. Shadowfall's 1080pr was never properly disclosed before the games launch (leading to people feeling tricked), whilst with PS4P's 4Kinda focus Sony is being very open and forward about it.

Except Guerilla Games shared their technique with Digital Foundry.

They waited with writing an article and then all of a sudden Guerilla Games wasn't honest because somehow sharing it with the premiere outlet for console technology who then write about it means you're deceptive.

You all want it easy and you don't want to actually use proper terminology by having everything reduced to two words "native" and "upscaling" when it's neither. We can all admit to ourselves that the majority of people don't give a single fuck about this and just want their gotchas and shit-stirring.

It is interesting how things changed in only 2 years

Or how much they stay the same.

 

[ViviOggi]

Okami HD is uprendering and it's one of the best things ver. They should do more of it

Okami HD uses supersampling which is pretty much the opposite of reconstruction. It's not done more on console hardware because it's crazy expensive, just like native 4k rendering.

Where is this "uprendering" buzzword coming from lately, Sony marketing term or a GAF thing?

 

[Booya_base]

It's all about expectations I think. Back then, most people were expecting 1080p images from a console of that power and were annoyed that it wasn't. This time, thanks to leaks, I can't imagine anyone thought that The Pro/Neo was going to be able to produce native 4K so it's hard to complain now ( doesn't stop some people though

 

[Vintage]

But you just did it here now as well. Without making the distinction of how that output is actually being rendered, it's as valid as the 4K claims now for the PS4 Pro.

How many developers will be open about non native 4K is the real question. In most cases they will slap 4K support on the box and that will be it.

During presentation Cerny showed various examples of games running both on 4k and 1080p but upscaled, mentioning how different developers chose different approaches to use power. RotTR will have 3 render modes to choose for the user, so it's not like developers are hiding the actual resolution. DF was busy this gen exposing or what resolution games are running, people are aware of that, so there's no point of lying any more.
Well of course, for average user 4K is a buzzword that will fly, but will they care about it?

 

[JustenP88]

Your average consumer thinks PS4 Pro outputs native 4k, let's not fool ourselves here.

The average consumer won't particularly know/care about this purity test when they're staring down an image that is leagues better than what their old hardware can produce. Which, if we're to believe the human people who saw this in person, is how it's going to go down.

I really don't know where they said anything about all their games being native 4k prior to or during this event... I feel like they've been completely upfront about this. They even went in depth to explain how this whole upscalerenderwhatever process works.

 

[gofreak]

They are pretty close really. All examples of actually shading fewer pixels per frame than you display.

Indeed, but in this case we're talking about shading a lot more pixels than the previous available standards (on console).

So it's simultaneously an upgrade, a pretty major one by the sounds of it in concert with HDR, so people may be more forgiving of the trade-offs to get there until a time arrives when we can reliably native-4K everything without any compromises.

(It also may be in the nature of these techniques that for the same display size at the same distances, the downfalls of these techniques may be less perceptible when trading in 2x 1080p res or more, vs when dealing with the likes of 900p? So that, additionally, might soften criticism...no pun intended)

 

[BigTnaples]

Completely different situations.

 

[GinoFelino]

They're pretty much the same techniques.

They are pretty close really. All examples of actually shading fewer pixels per frame than you display.

Not the point, I specifically mentioned the reactions. Shadowfall had such a negative reaction because it was false advertising.

Here, it was pretty much known going in that Pro wouldn't be able to render native 4K with 4.2TF specs. The checkerboard upscaler seems to be an elegant solution to that issue.

 

[diaspora]

Not the point, I specifically mentioned the reactions. Shadowfall had such a negative reaction because it was false advertising.

Here, it was pretty much known going in that Pro wouldn't be able to render native 4K with 4.2TF specs. The checkerboard upscaler seems to be an elegant solution to that issue.

I mean it's still upscaling so it's not even like we know what the real resolution is.

 

[LukasTaves]

The difference is that this time sony is coming clean with the fact that their box won't be powerful enough to render at 4k, and thus must be clever in order to achieve it.

If this "okayness" will stay when Scorpio arrived and comparisons start to be drawn, who knows?

 

[benny_a]

(It also may be in the nature of these techniques that for the same display size at the same distances, the downfalls of these techniques may be less perceptible when trading in 2x 1080p res or more, vs when dealing with the likes of 900p? So that, additionally, might soften criticism...no pun intended)

I went through the highest available quality footage from HZD's 4K footage, much like I did for KZ:SF pre-release.

Took me a while to find the tell-tale sign but it looks like it uses a very similar technique. But I'm not an expert.

 

[RibMan]

It's higher than 1080p, what's not OK about it?

I don't think anyone's saying there's something wrong with rendering at a higher resolution than 1080p. I think the argument is 1080pr and "impressively close" 4K are two marketing tactics to sell you something that is only true through a technicality.

To the best of my knowledge, Sony hasn't actually claimed that the 4K checkerboard rendering is the same as native 4K, so they haven't lied. This is pretty different from telling someone "Well you'll see it in 1080p so it's 1080p", so the reactions were bound to be different.

 

[c0de]

Your average consumer thinks PS4 Pro outputs native 4k, let's not fool ourselves here.

Exchange with 4k and a Sony guy.

 

[sammyCYBORG]

Exchange with 4k and a Sony guy.

This makes my head hurt.

 

[hooijdonk17]

Ps2: sub SD generation
Xbox 360: sub HD generation
Xbone: Sub full hd generation
Ps4pro: Sub 4k subgeneration

Lol console gaming

 

[Luigiv]

Except Guerilla Games shared their technique with Digital Foundry.

They waited with writing an article and then all of a sudden Guerilla Games wasn't honest because somehow sharing it with the premiere outlet for console technology who then write about it means you're deceptive.

You all want it easy and you don't want to actually use proper terminology by having everything reduced to two words "native" and "upscaling" when it's neither. We can all admit to ourselves that the majority of people don't give a single fuck about this and just want their gotchas and shit-stirring.

This was after the game released though, wasn't it, or am I misremembering?

 

[Vintage]

Yes, the better comparison here would be "Why people were angry about xbox one upscaling everything to 1080p, but are ok with PS4Pro upscaling to 4K?"

 

[GinoFelino]

I mean it's still upscaling so it's not even like we know what the real resolution is.

I'm okay with that, since the consensus seems to be that it's a very big leap from 1080p regardless.

 

[benny_a]

This was after the game released though, wasn't it, or am I misremembering?

GG shared their technique with DF pre-release.

GG shared their technique with the public post-release.

In any case you can't use what GG shared with DF as some sort of gotcha of "they got exposed!!!" when they used DF to give enthusiasts a perspective into their trade-offs.
What would the charge then be? They came clean in advance to the people that did the exposition?

 

[Raxanas]

If a consumer buys a PS4 Pro thinking it does native 4K.Since Sony does advertise it like that,most boards in my country already think that and then they find out its upscaled 1080p or some weird resolution 1920x2160 or sth like that,doesn't it fall under False advertising and fall under lawsuit/law jurisdiction?

 

[gofreak]

If a consumer buys a PS4 Pro thinking it does native 4K.Since Sony does advertise it like that

They do? Their press release qualifies what 4K means in a PS4 Pro context ('Outputted by graphic rendering or up-scaled'), and their presentation certainly did.

I think Sony is pretty clearly being careful here in order to deflect exactly the kind of complaints you're talking about.

 

[Luigiv]

Where is this "uprendering" buzzword coming from lately, Sony marketing term or a GAF thing?

I dunno. There's one gaffer (onq-something-something, can't remember his exact name) who trying to push it pretty hard, though I don't think it's catching on much. Either way it's a dumb term that makes no sense in this context (up rendering would mean rendering at a higher native resolution), let's just call it what it actually is, temporal upscaling, and call it a day.

 

[dex3108]

Yes, the better comparison here would be "Why people were angry about xbox one upscaling everything to 1080p, but are ok with PS4Pro upscaling to 4K?"

I didn't went with it because that really is not the same thing as far as i know. Xbox One upscales already rendered picture to 1080p and PS4 Pro uses rendering methods to achieve higher resolution and it is not pure upscale. But people can correct me if i am wrong

 

[michaelius]

They are pretty close really. All examples of actually shading fewer pixels per frame than you display.

Context is important.

Not hitting 1080p on 2013 machine was and remains sad joke

Not hitting 4K on 2016 machine is general expectation.

 

[KojiKnight]

What I'd like to see is instead of comparing 1080p to checkered scaled 4k is a comparison between 2.5k normal scaled to ps4p's checkered scaling... It's closer to an apples/apples comparison since it's closer in actual rendered pixels.

 

[Japanmanx3]

Yes, the better comparison here would be "Why people were angry about xbox one upscaling everything to 1080p, but are ok with PS4Pro upscaling to 4K?"

Context is important.

Not hitting 1080p on 2013 machine was and remains sad joke

Not hitting 4K on 2016 machine is general expectation.

.

 

[ViviOggi]

If a consumer buys a PS4 Pro thinking it does native 4K.Since Sony does advertise it like that,most boards in my country already think that and then they find out its upscaled 1080p or some weird resolution 1920x2160 or sth like that,doesn't it fall under False advertising and fall under lawsuit/law jurisdiction?

Well that's exactly what Sony's marketing and legal departments are working so hard on - making it sound like Pro delivers native 4k while not outright saying so.

 

[JustenP88]

Ps2: sub SD generation
Xbox 360: sub HD generation
Xbone: Sub full hd generation
Ps4pro: Sub 4k subgeneration

Lol console gaming

Find me a machine that can render today's AAA titles in native 4k for $400 and I'll "lol console gaming" right with you.

 

[Vintage]

I didn't went with it because that really is not the same thing as far as i know. Xbox One upscales already rendered picture to 1080p and PS4 Pro uses rendering methods to achieve higher resolution and it is not pure upscale. But people can correct me if i am wrong

I'm pretty sure it's the same. From what I understood, it will take output from unpatched PS4 games and use checkboard technique to upscale to 4K.

 

[Luigiv]

GG shared their technique with DF pre-release.

GG shared their technique with the public post-release.

In any case you can't use what GG shared with DF as some sort of gotcha of "they got exposed!!!" when they used DF to give enthusiasts a perspective into their trade-offs.
What would the charge then be? They came clean in advance to the people that did the exposition?

Fair enough. Mind you I was never one of those outraged and did think the whole thing was a bit of a silly over-reaction at the time, but agree with it or not that was why a lot of people were outraged which was the point I was trying to make.