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Hollywood Reporter: Why Did Marvel and Dreamworks Whitewash Their Asian Characters?
- Thread starter vinnygambini
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in before "but she looks white!"
no, she just looks like how Japanese artists draw Japanese people, instead of the way American artists draw Japanese people.
Id argue that the pre-accident arrogance and ego that leads to Strange's trip and eventual transformation would be an odd fit for a woman's story. Strange thinks hes God's gift before getting injured.
Also, its pretty clear that Marvel isnt going to mess around much with the visual designs of their major characters. Hence making Cumberbatch dye his hair and grow a beard.
We should be pushing to get more movies like Black Panther and Captain Marvel instead of wondering why none of the major white characters get race/gender swapped.
As for the Ancient One. I dont read a lot of Strange comics, but isnt that character ultimately evil? Marvel has been trying hard to avoid using stereotypic Asian villains.
Also, its pretty clear that Marvel isnt going to mess around much with the visual designs of their major characters. Hence making Cumberbatch dye his hair and grow a beard.
We should be pushing to get more movies like Black Panther and Captain Marvel instead of wondering why none of the major white characters get race/gender swapped.
As for the Ancient One. I dont read a lot of Strange comics, but isnt that character ultimately evil? Marvel has been trying hard to avoid using stereotypic Asian villains.
I don't think we ever learn what she really looks like. She's a full body cyborg. Can't remember if they ever say she was made in the same image as her original body or not, but in the movie at least doesn't she mention wondering if someone is walking around with the same face,, which would imply other than her military equipment she's a generic look.
Also I think in the manga when apeface is looking into starting his special division he mentions her name is no doubt an alias (kusanagi is a legendary sword) so if we base this on her name then even that can have holes punched in it.
I think she is Japanese though, just saying it may not be written in stone.
BronsonLee
Member
KSWISS JUST SPOILED DR. STRANGE FOR ME
OH MY GOD YOU BASTARD wait I don't think it's that simple
OH MY GOD YOU BASTARD wait I don't think it's that simple
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
The only one that can really be argued to be caucasian in aspect is Mamoru Oshii's interpretation, and that's because she has the same face of the puppeteer on top of how she looks with that more realistic style.
Glass Rebel
Member
I think you can praise and criticize Marvel Studios at the same time about this. Mordo, Heimdall and presumably Tessa Thompson's character in Thor 3
show that they don't shy away from changing the ethnicity of their characters, even if they are non-leading.
At the same time, you'd have to be blind not to realize that their universe is built on White male heroes. It's cool that they brought in Wanda and from what I've read about Civil War Black Panther sounds awesome but that doesn't mean there's no room for improvement.
Brunnhilde?
At the same time, you'd have to be blind not to realize that their universe is built on White male heroes. It's cool that they brought in Wanda and from what I've read about Civil War Black Panther sounds awesome but that doesn't mean there's no room for improvement.
Sure looks like a GREAT idea to cast this white, blond American as a dark haired Asian.
10/10
Hollywood is a pretty gross place. I cant wait to see all the white people playing section 9 employees.
Hollywood is a business, and while whitewashing is a cultural hickjacking in many ways, this sort of casting has more to do with business than it has to do with racism or failthfulness of an adaption. Johansson is one of the few female actors to have world wide box office draw, as Lucy as proved. Anime is also a hard sell for whitewashing, when most of their character designs tend to draw a worldwide pool of cultures.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Unless they're Egyptian
Bu-but why would this Japanese woman working for a secret police not want to be white? It's by far the most inconspicuous body she can get! Plus, don't all Japanese woman dream of being white?
Man 1: *Sees the Major doing her iconic window jumping scene and donning her active camo*
Man 2: What did the person look like?
Man 1: Well it was a woman who had military level active camo. She was whit-
Man 2: Ah yes, Motoko Kusanagi
Look at how many blatantly asian characters they have cast white. There was probably a treatment out there with a white guy in the role as a South African who was sympathetic to "their" cause.
The hell she is, the story is set in Japan, her name is Japanese, she is a cyborg, not a robot.
WrenchNinja
Member
Korey from double toasted put it best "Asians got it so bad, they can't even have their stereotypes anymore"
No, Berzerk is pretty obviously a European Medieval setting. Griffith for me, was always very white. Like Mega white. Guts can be white, but I personally envisioned him more of the European South or Eastern Europe.
Like I say, they still try
Also remember the black hero firefighter that got a movie - with a white guy playing him and the director claiming that he didn't know. Like. How little research have you to do, to never even see a picture of him?
Right, everyone wants to be white. Of course they do!
Yeah
I made the point in another thread on this movie that they would have cast the one go to male Asian actor, Ken Watanabe, instead of Beat Takashi if he weren't battling stomach cancer. I don't think he was ever their first choice considering the rest of the casting so far, his ok English and the fact he can be hard to work with.
You do realize Berserk is written in a world that is based on medieval Europe in most every aspect. The closest we get to an Asian character are the Kushans who tend to act as Indian/Middle Eastern analogues.
my name is ed
Banned
This reminds me Kurt Busiek argues that when Ditko created Dr Strange, he was created to be an asian man. Its not explicitly said in the comic but Dr Strange is drawn the way Ditko has drawn Asian characters.
freeofgreed
Member
Yeah this is honestly the most infuriating thing to come out of this whole debacle. The fucking ignorance is astonding.
I don't know why people have such a hard time grasping this concept. Anime characters don't look stereo typically Japanese because to them, Japanese is the norm and it is westerners who look different. They don't need to make any signifies to make the'r characters look asian, because it already is assumed that they are. However they usually do make signifiers for their non asians, because they are the other.
Whoops, I have think I got something else mixed up with something else
I was some how under the impression that she wasn't Japanese, probably based on a quick assessment of her physical appearance. So is there any story justification they could use for Johansson playing her, ie: future Japan is more mixed raced?BewareTheBatsie
Member
I do agree that casting Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One is pretty annoying at how this Asian man is now a white woman.
And the whole Scarlett Johansson thing is just...ugh.
And the whole Scarlett Johansson thing is just...ugh.
They could give plenty of explanations. Doesn't stop this from being disgusting, if she is portraying Major Kusanagi, which, given the hair, is probably the case.Whoops, I have think I got something else mixed up with something else
The only part of her that isn't manufactured is her brain. She was a dude at the end of the manga.Whoops, I have think I got something else mixed up with something else
freeofgreed
Member
Not when a character is explicity asian though. And the character designs can be taken with a grain of salt as that is pure stylization and not an attempt at making ethnically diverse characters.
Also can we stop with this "you need a box office draw" nonsense? This isn't the 80s when you could just cast Schwarzenegger to get people to see your shitty film. There have been tons of cases recently with movies with lesser known actors doing great numbers, and movies with megastars tanking. Stop making excuses for Hollywood's obvious racial bias, because all your doing is allowing it to continue.
WrenchNinja
Member
The least they could have done if they didn't want an Asian man for ancient one was cast an Asian woman
But nope, can't even do that
To be fair, "white-washing" is a HORRIBLE term, it just creates two separate discussions, one centring around complexion and the other around the cultural significances that are being ignored.
Not even Asian man is saved from Michael Jackson Syndrome.
freeofgreed
Member
Naw it's a perfectly acceptable term. Whatever we called it, the discussion would've still been the same. As you'd still have people using asinine arguments to defend white people getting roles they have no business getting.
Seems like a very clickbait article done in a very amateurish way. I mean how are you going to claim Mordo is a sidekick to Strange ? REALLY ?
Clearly there's a serious diversity issue in Hollywood. Clearly whitewashing is a very important issue. But Marvel is one of the better studios out there when it comes to that. In Strange you have an asian guy, a black guy, a white guy and a woman (I know all are British) but still. How is that whitewashing ? I love Ditko's comics but it had a lot of racist stereotypical undertones making Wong more like his servant and such or associating every Asian with the mystic and martial arts side (especially the character of Ancient One). Considering most movies these days (i'm looking at you Gods of Egypt) are the epitomy of whitewashing I wouldn't go as far as claiming Marvel to be guilty of that. At least they're making an effort which is more than I can about most.
More asian actors/actresses should be getting prominent roles in Hollywood.
But they should avoid to cast them in stereotypical roles. Nothing upsets me more than stereotyping. Which is why I'm glad Marvel avoided that and went with a woman for the role. I remember reading that they were interested in Michelle Yeoh but that it didn't work out. Still Tilda Swinton is a good choice as she has that universal androgynous look. I prefer to see the Ancient as someone not bound by their gender.
I could see the criticism for Ghost in the Shell but not Dr. Strange.
Clearly there's a serious diversity issue in Hollywood. Clearly whitewashing is a very important issue. But Marvel is one of the better studios out there when it comes to that. In Strange you have an asian guy, a black guy, a white guy and a woman (I know all are British) but still. How is that whitewashing ? I love Ditko's comics but it had a lot of racist stereotypical undertones making Wong more like his servant and such or associating every Asian with the mystic and martial arts side (especially the character of Ancient One). Considering most movies these days (i'm looking at you Gods of Egypt) are the epitomy of whitewashing I wouldn't go as far as claiming Marvel to be guilty of that. At least they're making an effort which is more than I can about most.
More asian actors/actresses should be getting prominent roles in Hollywood.
But they should avoid to cast them in stereotypical roles. Nothing upsets me more than stereotyping. Which is why I'm glad Marvel avoided that and went with a woman for the role. I remember reading that they were interested in Michelle Yeoh but that it didn't work out. Still Tilda Swinton is a good choice as she has that universal androgynous look. I prefer to see the Ancient as someone not bound by their gender.
I could see the criticism for Ghost in the Shell but not Dr. Strange.
freeofgreed
Member
Hmmm, this post seems very familiar.....
He added a line there at the end. So I guess it counts as a new version.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Okay, it wasn't just me who could've sworn he read this exact same post before
BronsonLee
Member
Good shit Sherlock
True, but far fewer. "White-washing" immediately invites the skin colour comparisons, and to be honest, that's a valid discussion as well; just not the one people are trying to have here.
Asian character white washing in American cinema is really weird. M. Night's Avatar movie still pisses me off, and not just because it was so awful but the whitewashing was so unnecessary and ridiculous. We point out the racism of the Force Awakens posters in China but the film makers do worse. If the movie goers were asking for the white washing that would be one thing (and a different subject to talk about) but I just don't see any reason for it. In the case of the Dr. Strange movie it becomes a trickier subject to talk about since they cast often argued for diverse actors into roles. Tilda Swinton will probably be great in that role, and who wants to be the one arguing to take a role from a woman sparse move. On the other hand they could have made Clea from the comics a prominent character in the movie and added to it. Mordo could have been cast as an Asian actor easily, but again it would have taken another diverse casting out.
ScarJo in Ghost in the Shell was always a 'WTF" moment for me. Very blatant what was going on there like with Avatar and showing the producers not getting the original source material at all.
The Speed Racer thing is a little odd to point out for me though. I honestly never saw the original cartoon as asian characters at all. It's kind of like Lupin and some of those anime from that era where the characters had their own styles taken from different regions, some asian, some not.
ScarJo in Ghost in the Shell was always a 'WTF" moment for me. Very blatant what was going on there like with Avatar and showing the producers not getting the original source material at all.
The Speed Racer thing is a little odd to point out for me though. I honestly never saw the original cartoon as asian characters at all. It's kind of like Lupin and some of those anime from that era where the characters had their own styles taken from different regions, some asian, some not.
Callibretto
Member
No. Because that manga obviously didn't take place in anything resembling Japan, actually seeing japanese Guts would probably look a bit weird.
I may get some heat for this, but I agree. I want to see more Asian representation in film (especially Asian males who get shafted all the time), but the last thing I want is an Asian male getting another stereotypical emasculated role in a movie. If you're going to do it right make sure the characters reflect a significant role and aren't sidelines or generic Asian guy who nobody cares for. If marvel needs 10 more years to establish that then fair enough. It's not like we haven't been waiting Long enough already.
BUT the way modern Japanese artists draw Japanese people is influenced by the way American artists drew white people
How about Naruto?
whatsinaname
Member
The whole GITS and 21 and Avatar situation is fairly shitty.
But I don't know what the best way to deal with Mandarin, Wong or Ancient One is. We end up with either no representation or historical hollywood stereotypes.
But I don't know what the best way to deal with Mandarin, Wong or Ancient One is. We end up with either no representation or historical hollywood stereotypes.
I wouldn't be upset if the author's intention with the characters was for them to be white. However it's very likely that the Guts at a minimum is meant to be Japanese in physical appearance since you're dealing with a Japanese author writing a manga for Japanese audiences. While a few poster earlier have mentioned that the story is in a European Medieval-ish setting, keep in mind that we are dealing with a fantasy manga and not a biography/non fictional work, no different than your average Japanese RPG with everything from witches to demons. When you're talking about an author dealing with fantasy, it's very easy to take real world settings or elements from another part of the world as references and put people you relate to/your audience more easily relates to in it (this is a white washing topic after all). We can't use our own interpretations of stylized characters and excuses like "there's no way that's Japan" as a loop hole for going against the original intent of the creators when dealing with fantasy.
Keep in mind that one of the big reasons we often deal with topics on white washing and/or how little roles go to non white actors is because many of the film creators/directors/etc are white themselves and at least some of their decision making is based on familiarity and comfort level of casting a white person over other ethnic groups. This isn't exclusive to the United States, and countries like Japan (while also much less diverse than the US) think along the same lines. Because ultimately an author/film creator/etc... is going to create, draw, write what they know more often than not.
The show/manga based on Ninja villages? What do you think?
Modest Mauser
Member
Why is this relevant at all. If it's the way Japanese artists draw Japanese people, she's Japanese.
Receipts.
Japanese. The setting in Naruto is, while a techno-shizophren fantasy world, clearly inspired by feudal Japan. There are Daimyous ruling the countries, with Samurai and Ninjas serving them. Not to mention that everyone got a japanese name.
Nikita is one of my favorite shows of all time. When Agents of Shield was being cast I was just expecting Maggie Q to get the role of May. Ming-Na is fine but just doesn't have the physical skills that Maggie Q does in selling a fight scene. She would have been great for Ghost in the Shell.
Fort the ancient one, I'm not too upset. They made it pretty clear that wanted an androgynous actor to play the part and you end up with Tilda Swinton pretty quickly then.
ScarJo in GitS is inexcusable though.
As for DrStrange being a female Asian, sure, I can't see why not, except for it being potential fuel for claiming Marvel is racist for casting an Asian person in a medical profession.
ScarJo in GitS is inexcusable though.
As for DrStrange being a female Asian, sure, I can't see why not, except for it being potential fuel for claiming Marvel is racist for casting an Asian person in a medical profession.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Many people love to use the "adaptation" angle when people question changes from the source material or how a film isn't a 1:1 adaption so it's okay to make the character white and they're simply getting the best person for the job (best person always happens to be white) But suggest a Marvel character be different from the source material and they have 101 reasons why that's not right. Suddenly it's "they should create minority characters, not make X character a minority, that's just pandering! Diversity quota!!!"
freeofgreed
Member
No it was influenced by DIsney, or how American Artists drew anthropomorphic animals.
The thing people don't seem to get about anime is the reason why characters sometimes have blond hair or blue eyes, isn't to make those characters another ethnicity. It's for stylization purposes. The Anime art style is a very simplistic one, which is why you have so many characters across different different works/artists which often end up looking alike. Japanese artists try to make their characters more distinct by giving them different hair/eye colors, and crazy outfits. It's also why you get characters with unnatural hair/eye colors like pink, purple, blue etc... If it really was an attempt to make a white person this wouldn't happen.
Of course this doesn't apply to works like FMA or SnK which are explicitly set in European inspired worlds.
I think the end game would be who the fuck ever playing whoever as long as they capture the persons spirt (mannerisms, speech, etc.) -- I say this purely after seeing Tidus Andromedon play a Japanese geisha.
But. We're not there yet. Not even close. The only reason why Hollywood still does this shit is because of these false profit (and racism) ideas that have been shown to be bullshit. It makes no sense either considering how eager they are to break into new markets. Stop dicking groups around then. Why are shitty British actors playing Egyptian gods? Why are you replacing asian actors in a "true fucking story" movie with white people? Why isn't Angela Bassett in more shit? Why did Ricky in have to die in Boyz in the Hood? Why has Cuba Jr only been allowed out of jail to play OJ? Why won't Chris Tucker do another Friday?
But. We're not there yet. Not even close. The only reason why Hollywood still does this shit is because of these false profit (and racism) ideas that have been shown to be bullshit. It makes no sense either considering how eager they are to break into new markets. Stop dicking groups around then. Why are shitty British actors playing Egyptian gods? Why are you replacing asian actors in a "true fucking story" movie with white people? Why isn't Angela Bassett in more shit? Why did Ricky in have to die in Boyz in the Hood? Why has Cuba Jr only been allowed out of jail to play OJ? Why won't Chris Tucker do another Friday?
Did they announce they wanted an androgynous actor prior to casting Tilda Swinton, or was that their justification after they were called out for whitewashing a role?
freeofgreed
Member
Yeah, it's pretty funny that all the people who rage about shit like keeping the source material pure in cases like Heimdall being black, are nowhere to be found when it's a case of changing a minority character to a white one.
It's a side discussion that ScarJo does not look like the character, so shouldn't play her. It's not a relevant reason why ScarJo shouldn't play her but everybody decided to pile on Vinci.
Vinci knows the character is Japanese and says so but still the backlash
I would have thought so except:
Naruto is the first anime series I ever watched subtitled. I basically went through the cycle -> assume whiteness -> get 'Educated' that they are actually Japanese -> read that Kishi quote -> very confused.
Osamu Tezuka is the father of the modern Japanese manga/anime and his style is self admittedly influenced by Walt Disney. Before him Japanese depicted themselves very differently. Look up art from the Edo period and it looks nothing like Japanese manga today
Yeah Maggie would be great. What about Japanese actresses though?
Snow White and the Seven Dwarves was a blockbuster hit for Walt Disney in 1938. Pinocchio followed in 1940.
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