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The Guardian: The Bernie Sanders voters who would choose Trump over Clinton

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Bernie "supporters" who will vote for Trump were never pro-Bernie because of any of his policies/platform, they're Bernie supporters simply because he's "anti-establishment". Nothing more, nothing less.
 
It's alarming how many people aren't aware of the concept of compromise, or that you sometimes need to settle for stuff that isn't exactly what you want because it's better than the alternative. Sometimes life requires you to choose a lesser of two evils. I think a problem I have with a lot of idealists is that they think their ideals are more important than practical reality. Holding firm to an ideal is fine, but knowing when to bend or give for the sake of the future is incredibly important if you want any hope of making an ideal a reality.
 
I'm not sure if I have to worry about these people in earnest, but it does seem strange that people would actually make that decision, knowing that they're essentially voting to blow everything up and see what happens.

Is there a number of Clinton supporters that wouldn't support Bernie, especially if the alternative is Trump or Cruz? I can see him pushing away centrist democrats in theory, but in this election cycle the right will be putting out a candidate much much farther away from them.
 
Unknown Soldier said:
Will this argument change if Obama is actually able to ram a Supreme Court Justice nominee through and have him or her reach the Court this year? We still got a lot of time left on Obama's clock you know.
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Yes because Ruth Bader Ginsburg is sadly probably not going to be on the Supreme Court for another eight years since she is currently 82. I really hope whoever eventually replaces her is just as incredible of a person as she is.
 
Unknown Soldier said:
Will this argument change if Obama is actually able to ram a Supreme Court Justice nominee through and have him or her reach the Court this year? We still got a lot of time left on Obama's clock you know.
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This is absolutely not going to happen in any circumstance. He needs to get a candidate through congress, and congress is republican dominated right now and they'll do anything to stall for time
 
hawk2025 said:
Happy to discuss specific trade deals and change their terms accordingly.

I made no defense of the TPP. I am addressing the anti trade movement.
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The anti-free trade movement exists because in a world dominated by bought politicians and corruption all free trade really means is that the most powerful corporations are going to indirectly write all the agreements that will completely fuck over the poor and the working class.

So if your choices are dubious anti-free trade policies that might lead to some sort of reform at some point or continuing to support the huge corporations that will surely end up fucking you over then you might want to take the dubious route of resisting the corporate takeover any way you can.


/end response, now for some general ranting:

I feel like a lot of people (especially college educated liberals) don't actually realize that some of the people who like Bernie but would vote for Trump over Hillary might actually be desperate. If increasing globalization and corporate influence is almost surely going to fuck up your life there's really nothing irrational about choosing to vote for the candidate that's a wild card chaos option. For those people that's the only option that *MIGHT* get a better end result.

You as a college educated young person living in a big college city can go ahead and call those people privileged white idiots but all you're most likely doing is putting down a person with a bleaker future than you and causing a strong counter reaction to your rhetoric.

These people really have no one to actually vote for.

And I'm not actually even saying that they're right, or that they fully realize what they're voting for or what things matter in the long run. But please think of the situations that might lead someone to voting this way.
 
Unknown Soldier said:
Sure, I'll take a shot. And my reply will be as simple as the post you replied to.

It's not a reason to vote for Hillary. It's a reason to not vote against your interests.

You aren't wanting to vote for Hillary to keep the SCOTUS out of Republican hands. You're simply voting against the Republicans.

You still haven't given me a reason why I would actually want to vote for Hillary, of my own free will.
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Playing a semantics game I see. Well the policy divide between Bernie vs Hilary is so much smaller than the gulf between Bernie vs Trump. If you are voting for Trump after supporting Bernie you were not actually listening to Bernie or even cared at all about his policies. You probably just liked the fact he was an underdog. A big part of Bernie's early campaign was encouraging people to be invested in politics again so we don't have these midterm disasters repeat themselves. Changing the whole political system is going to take longer than one election.
 
Oltsu said:
The anti-free trade movement exists because in a world dominated by bought politicians and corruption all free trade really means is that the most powerful corporations are going to indirectly write all the agreements that will completely fuck over the poor and the working class.

So if your choices are dubious anti-free trade policies that might lead to some sort of reform at some point or continuing to support the huge corporations that will surely end up fucking you over then you might want to take the dubious route of resisting the corporate takeover any way you can.


/end response, now for some general ranting:

I feel like a lot of people (especially college educated liberals) don't actually realize that some of the people who like Bernie but would vote for Trump over Hillary might actually be desperate. If increasing globalization and corporate influence is almost surely going to fuck up your life there's really nothing irrational about choosing to vote for the candidate that's a wild card chaos option. For those people that's the only option that *MIGHT* get a better end result.

You as a college educated young person living in a big college city can go ahead and call those people privileged white idiots but all you're most likely doing is putting down a person with a bleaker future than you and causing a strong counter reaction to your rhetoric.

These people really have no one to actually vote for.
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Why is globalization a bad thing? And no, globalization does not mean "corporate dominance" in any way shape or form
 
APF said:
Even if I grant this will be the outcome of the election, it does not follow that this means progressive policies will be the victor of that conversation, given the fact that (in a Trump win) someone who embodies the polar opposite came out of nowhere and defied all statistical and demographic probability to steal the highest office in the land. In the 2000 election, the message wasn't "golly we should have been more aligned with those Nader voters," it was "you selfish assholes cost us everything!" You can really tell who went through that election and who didn't.
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I went through that 2000 election. I made the mistake of not voting for Gore because I thought in my idealism that both candidates were too similar. This is why I will vote Hillary even though she's a poor candidate- I think that she's better for the country than Trump despite her flaws.

Anyway, parties should definitely pay closer attention to their constituency. Trump is a perfect example of what happens when you don't, and Ted Cruz as well. In 2008, and 2012, the GOP ran moderate (for them!) candidates, and lost. Both times conservative media pundits said, "we need to run further to the right, these were bad picks". This time GOP primary voters are denying the party the ability to run center-right. Walker, Bush, and next Rubio have been chewed up and spat out.
 
kamspy said:
Are supreme court nominations worth more than peoples lives in Syria and soon to be Iran?



I think she would gladly escalate the one in Syria. She's implied as much. Iran is always next on that list with those people. I don't want that country to be destroyed either.
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1. Clinton has said that she would entirely honor the Iran nuclear deal. The entire GOP field including Trump has committed to tearing it up day one. Which one do you think results in a conflict with Iran?

2. Clinton was the Sec. of State when the U.S. largely began extricating itself from the middle east conflict. I know Bernie Bros are buying that Killary Clinton assassinated Dr. Benjamin Ghazi with her bare hands as part of her grand scheme to depose the noble and gracious Muammar Gaddafi, but reality differs pretty strongly with that narrative. Namely that the current POTUS, Barack Obama, good guy and all around bad ass pretty well spelled out exactly why we went into Libya in the first place: western European allies begging the U.S. to carry water for them into yet another conflict so they can have microscopic defense budgets, decry American foreign aggression when it suits them, and yet still champion the human rights victories they've supposedly achieved come election time.

But hey, keep drinking that kool-aid on how the woman claiming her primary goal is the maintain the stability brought about by Obama while working towards slow but consistent progressive reform is secretly a war hawk just waiting to order bombings. Sanders isn't poisoning the well at all by staying in a race he's already lost at all. Nope, no harm done here.
 
T'Zariah said:
Anyone who would honestly vote for Trump over Clinton is doing so from a position of entitlement and privilege.

You never cared about the progressive movement.

You never cared about minorities.

You never cared about women's rights.

You were never concerned with the right-wing's shift to more authoritarian and openly racist vitriol.

You never cared about Bernie's proposals for a more democratic society

You never cared about the Supreme Court

You never cared about Citizen's United being struck down

You never cared about the rigged political system.

You only cared about yourself. Period. What YOU could get out of those proposals, not what it could benefit society as a whole.

Fuck anyone who has this mentality, and I can only conclude you have implicit biases against minorities if you would openly vote for a guy who's blatantly inciting fascist rhetoric.
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As someone who supports Bernie (although can't call myself a "Bernie supporter " because not american), this.

It kinda goes with a few people I know over the internet, mostly americans, who would call themselves "Not a Trump Supporter but", because that's always how the sentence starts. "I'm not a trump supporter tho but liberalism is more dangerous to free speech than trump". "I'm not a trump supporter but I think the protests are doing more harm than good". It's the usual half-baked pseudo intellectual nonsense and it's so freaking cookie cutter that it's frustrating.

There is definitively a subgroup among the young generation who are very misinformed about politics and will see it almost like a console war. Some are very well meaning but their train of thought usually stops at the very premisce of critical thinking and treat it like it's the terminus
 
Oltsu said:
The anti-free trade movement exists because in a world dominated by bought politicians and corruption all free trade really means is that the most powerful corporations are going to indirectly write all the agreements that will completely fuck over the poor and the working class.

So if your choices are dubious anti-free trade policies that might lead to some sort of reform at some point or continuing to support the huge corporations that will surely end up fucking you over then you might want to take the dubious route of resisting the corporate takeover any way you can.


/end response, now for some general ranting:

I feel like a lot of people (especially college educated liberals) don't actually realize that some of the people who like Bernie but would vote for Trump over Hillary might actually be desperate. If increasing globalization and corporate influence is almost surely going to fuck up your life there's really nothing irrational about choosing to vote for the candidate that's a wild card chaos option. For those people that's the only option that *MIGHT* get a better end result.

You as a college educated young person living in a big college city can go ahead and call those people privileged white idiots but all you're most likely doing is putting down a person with a bleaker future than you and causing a strong counter reaction to your rhetoric.

These people really have no one to actually vote for.
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Why is globalization a bad thing? And no, globalization does not mean "corporate dominance" in any way shape or form

Also, the idea that "things can't possibly get any worse" for anyone in America is absolutely ludicrous and somewhat offensive, when we see people in other countries with standards of living far below anyone in this country. Not to mention saying "It can't get worse for me, so why not?" Is an incredibly selfish viewpoint that ignores that their are hundreds of millions of people in this country besides said individual, so just because they can only go up doesn't mean most won't go down
 
Angelus Errare said:
Bernie "supporters" who will vote for Drumpf were never pro-Bernie because of any of his policies/platform, they're Bernie supporters simply because he's "anti-establishment". Nothing more, nothing less.
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Cannot be said enough.

And I will disagree with some others here: I do not think his most ardent supporters are these people.
 
I have a fairly diverse group of friends & family, and I don't know anyone who'd vote for Trump if/when Sanders loses. All of these sanders supportersjust don't like or trust Clinton, but they hate Trump.

Only online have I seen these sentiment
 
Unknown Soldier said:
Will this argument change if Obama is actually able to ram a Supreme Court Justice nominee through and have him or her reach the Court this year? We still got a lot of time left on Obama's clock you know.
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It still holds, just out of the risk that Ruth Bader Ginsburg croaks in the next five years. Stephen Breyer isn't exactly young, either. I wish that one or both had retired when it was safe. If we had more padding on the court, I'd be more willing to risk things. But an error in this cycle could put the movement back for a few decades.

The Democratic Party is clearly moving in Bernie's direction. This is probably going to be the last cycle where his wing of the party falls short in nominating its preferred candidate. Future nominees are going to look a hell of a lot more like him than Hillary, policy-wise. I'm excited about this, but I also don't want the decision we make here in 2016 to haunt the next Bernie coming-up. We can lose 2016 and then rack-up huge wins in 2020 and 2024 (and beyond), but it will be for naught if there's a 5-4 or 6-3 majority waiting to kill anything they can get their hands on.
 
MrHoot said:
As someone who supports Bernie (although can't call myself a "Bernie supporter " because not american), this.

It kinda goes with a few people I know over the internet, mostly americans, who would call themselves "Not a Trump Supporter but", because that's always how the sentence starts. "I'm not a trump supporter tho but liberalism is more dangerous to free speech than trump". "I'm not a trump supporter but I think the protests are doing more harm than good". It's the usual half-baked pseudo intellectual nonsense and it's so freaking cookie cutter that it's frustrating.

There is definitively a subgroup among the young generation who are very misinformed about politics and will see it almost like a console war. Some are very well meaning but their train of thought usually stops at the very premisce of critical thinking and treat it like it's the terminus
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Nailed it. Same shit applies to idiotas who say "both sides are the same".
 
Aaronrules380 said:
Why is globalization a bad thing? And no, globalization does not mean "corporate dominance" in any way shape or form
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In theory it's not a bad thing, but if you're a working class individual already having a hard time and all the rules for the increasingly globalizing economy are written by politicians who mostly just care about the bribes they got from the very companies that can't wait to fuck you over then you might think differently.

I'm not part of that demographic. But I understand why people who are might feel the way they do.
 
There are probably a lot of independents that will vote trump if Bernie does not win.

I mean everyone saw the "where was Bernie in 93 when I was advocating healthcare" thread..

He was right behind her in the photos supporting her and she personally thanked him.

I personally feel that Hillary is the last thing our country needs. And I think Cruz is way too extreme, Rubio wiil roll over and play dead for the GOP. So basically the better of the candidates (IMO) comes down to Bernie (D), Trump (R) and Kasich (R).

But pretty much with every election, you try to pick the best candidate (Aka the lesser evil). And after the shit that has transpired over the last 10yrs I am tired of the establishment train across the world effectively destabilizing itself through war and geopolitical war (Aka destabilizing countries for money and power).
 
Unknown Soldier said:
Soy milk has phytoestrogens and carrageenan. I mean you need to consume A LOT of soy milk before it actually becomes something you might care about, but there's a reason why almond milk is getting popular recently.

So oddly enough without realizing it, you picked absolutely the perfect analogy there.
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lol

No, I just prefer almond to soy. (I'm not lactose-intolerant) But that's an interesting tidbit
 
This is all about propping up the cynical characterization of Bernie supporters as naive and self-destructive. It's like bringing up how there were Hillary supporters who voted for McCain in 2008 -- it doesn't ultimately matter. This isn't anything to do with Bernie or the vast majority of his supporters. It's a non-story.
 
Oltsu said:
In theory it's not a bad thing, but if you're a working class individual already having a hard time and all the rules for the increasingly globalizing economy are written by politicians who mostly just care about the bribes they got from the very companies that can't wait to fuck you over then you might think differently.

I'm not part of that demographic. But I understand why people who are might feel the way they do.
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This seems more like a case of bad perceptions rather than anything based on real facts.

Also, I still repeat that I have no sympathy for people who would actively choose something that would very likely harm millions of people just for the small chance they might benefit. It's honestly worse than corporations (who are also not people with emotions or independent thought), who despite what people try to say, are not really actively trying to screw people over. A lot of the stuff rich people are behind that hurts the poor is born of ignorance and not really understanding the situation properly. Supporting an openly racist, violent asshole like Trump is many times worse because its pretty fucking obvious how some groups would suffer under him.
 
Not going to hedge. Anyone who actually does this is worthless and their opinions mean less than nothing to me.

Vote independent. I will begrudgingly say its far.


Voting Trump? Straight up moronic.
 
I appreciate the genuine responses. My mind is not made up and I'm willing to look at any information. So many times I've been insulted this election cycle, here and on the internet in general, when I don't instantly write-off Trump for his between the lines jabs when the policies he's talked about are of great interest to me (I'm 34 and build industrial controls for a living). My entire industry is one piece of regulation away from disappearing. Someone above wrote about desperate people considering Trump, and I am one of them.

In the past year I've been told I can't honestly protest with BLM by BLM. I'm not wanted there. Then the Oscars happen and #NotYourMule becomes a thing. Now, I'm considering a presidential candidate based on policies and being made to feel guilty for considering supporting a guy who made shitty comments about illegal mexican immigrants.
 
MartyStu said:
These people are the worst and I instantly stop any political discussions with them.
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I still try a bit. There are some, not all, who have their heart in the right place but are just very very lazy. I had a low success rate but it does feel nice when I manage to chip the armor a bit.

I mean to be honest, I was kind of the same type of dickhead not too long ago. It was by exposing myself more to stuff here on GAF that I actually managed to broaden my views (kudos to Africanus). So it's not all lost :p

But it is incredibly frustrating. Mostly because you have to stroke them in the right way for a while so they become more agreeable to other views. And some you just don't want to waste your time, because they saw some quickly hashed up image on imgur about bernie sanders getting the better pokemon but would be incapable of actually arguing around socio-economic problems that he wants to tackle
 
Aaronrules380 said:
Why is globalization a bad thing? And no, globalization does not mean "corporate dominance" in any way shape or form
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[Not claiming veracity, just this is part of the argument that doesn't surface into these discussions very frequently]

http://robertreich.org/post/111210323485

Suppose that by enacting a particular law we’d increase the U.S.Gross Domestic Product. But almost all that growth would go to the richest 1percent. 


The rest of us could buy some products cheaper than before. But those gains would be offset by losses of jobs and wages.

This is pretty much what “free trade” has brought us over the last two decades.

I used to believe in trade agreements. That was before the wages of most Americans stagnated and a relative few at the top captured just about all the economic gains.

Recent trade agreements have been wins for big corporations and Wall Street, along with their executives and major shareholders. They get better access to foreign markets and billions of consumers.

They also get better protection for their intellectual property – patents, trademarks, and copyrights. And for their overseas factories, equipment, and financial assets.

But those deals haven’t been wins for most Americans.

The fact is, trade agreements are no longer really about trade. Worldwide tariffs are already low. Big American corporations no longer make many products in the United States for export abroad.

The biggest things big American corporations sell overseas are ideas, designs, franchises, brands, engineering solutions, instructions, and software.

Google, Apple, Uber, Facebook, Walmart, McDonalds, Microsoft, and Pfizer, for example, are making huge profits all over the world.

But those profits don’t depend on American labor – apart from a tiny group of managers, designers, and researchers in the U.S.

To the extent big American-based corporations any longer make stuff for export, they make most of it abroad and then export it from there, for sale all over the world – including for sale back here in the United States.
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Cheebo said:
Any Bernie supporter who says they won't vote Hillary in the general have one thing in common.

Sexism.

That is the ONLY reason to not vote Hillary if Bernie isn't the nominee. They may not want to admit it but it's the truth and everyone else knows it.
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There are quite a few more. Just because you don't vote for Hillary doesn't make you a sexist. I don't care about what sex the person is, Hillary is flip flopping all over the place. It reminds me of people like Mitt Romney. That said there's no way I'd vote for Trump. I like the ideas of Berney like getting money out of politics, it may happen eventually, next election I hope someone runs on this if Bernie doesn't make it. Hillary is all about keeping the things they way they are.

If Drumpf wasn't crazy, Trump, a candidate that appealed to racist views, and so much more I probably would think about voting for him. That's too much to change, it may as well be a different person.
 
Aaronrules380 said:
Why is globalization a bad thing? And no, globalization does not mean "corporate dominance" in any way shape or form
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Globalization is a bad thing because America doesn't manufacture anything for export anymore except for Debt, weapons, financial products, software, weed, and entertainment.

For most people, 99% of the things they use day in and day out are made abroad. The middle class of 1960 can't survive in those industries alone, not in a consumption economy and the cost of education in this country is turning us into a caste system.
 
Trump is going to take outside money for the general for sure. He's not going to get by on 20 million dollars for a general election when Hillary will have a billion. I think people will be surprised when the judge he appoints also affirms citizens United. I can't understand why you'd vote for trump if this was your single issue.

Trump wants to expand the use of torture in our military and wants to bomb the shit out of the Middle East. He has no qualms about targeting civilians. His temperament is bizarre and unsteady. He was for the Iraq war before he was against it. He wants to significantly bulk up the military. I can't understand why you'd vote for trump if this was your single issue.

Trump's healthcare plan ON HIS WEBSITE is utter trash. I can't believe you'd vote for trump if this was your single issue.

Trump on trade is a bunch of nebulous nothing's about making better deals. In his life, he exploits foreign labor and got rich doing so. He doesn't actually care enough to articulate coherent policy on this. I can't believe you'd vote for trump if this was your single issue.

I am a Hillary voter who would 100% vote for Bernie in a general and be happy to do so. I can't see any rational alignment from a policy standpoint of Bernie and trump. If you do, maybe you think otherwise about his temperament or something but I seriously suggest you should get that checked out.

Vote for Jill stein if you want.
 
Aaronrules380 said:
Why is globalization a bad thing? And no, globalization does not mean "corporate dominance" in any way shape or form

Also, the idea that "things can't possibly get any worse" for anyone in America is absolutely ludicrous and somewhat offensive, when we see people in other countries with standards of living far below anyone in this country. Not to mention saying "It can't get worse for me, so why not?" Is an incredibly selfish viewpoint that ignores that their are hundreds of millions of people in this country besides said individual, so just because they can only go up doesn't mean most won't go down
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My earlier post espousing free-trade can be found on the previous page, but for this, consider our job market. Seems to be doing pretty well right now -- the issues being multifold. Wages failing to keep up with inflation, huge growth that was promised under free trade not coming to fruition, a general lack of jobs in some places -- especially those that were manufacturing centers -- and a fear of 'the other.'

It's very easy to claim that wages haven't been rising because "supply and demand," but that's too simplistic of a view to take. Wages, as we know(Again I call to the Great Depression), are "sticky." That means that when something bad happens, there is enormous pushback, be it from productivity loss or turnover, from pay cuts. It's not a fun thing to experience. This already bucks the trend of 'supply and demand' affecting wages (and not simply jobs in general).

However, there were job losses from free trade -- or more accurately, a poor response to free trade. Although moving manufacturing to Mexico or China was uncommon(as opposed to rare) before free-trade policies began to be enacted, they only accelerated afterwards. Specifically, beef prices went down when we could get Canadian and Mexican beef (NAFTA), but manufacturers of cars(the big one) moved to Mexico! It was cheaper to do it there than here...and when you consider the general lack of demand throughout the 80s caused by, again, inflation devaluing wages with little recourse(thanks, Friedman), products that would normally sell started selling less. Of course business would try to get them out the door cheaper -- their bottom line was suffering.

So, those jobs were shed, and in its place rose the service industry. Not quite a 1:1, but we still saw plenty of growth due to the financial industry. So now we have fewer jobs that we may otherwise have had in manufacturing, but somewhere around the SAME amount of jobs. The problem? Service industry jobs paid a pittance, and financial industry jobs required education far beyond what the upper-lower class~lower middle class had. So demand dropped further, which pushed more manufacturing base out of the country, which only shed more jobs. A terrible cycle.

Thus, it's not uncommon to find that these lower-middle class, lower class individuals dislike globalism -- it cost them their job, or their parents their jobs. Where they see that globalization has exported the American Dream, however, the truth is not that simplistic. Poor fiscal policies coupled with poor business practices caused this damage. Free-trade agreements allow these kinds of problems to exist, but in the same way that public roads allow car accidents to exist.
 
ugaboga232 said:
The plural of anecdote is not data.

There are probably thousands of clinton to trump voters. They are all dumb.
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Citation needed.

This is actual data though, not just anecdote.


RedSparc said:
Globalization is a bad thing because America doesn't manufacture anything for export anymore except for Debt, weapons, financial products, software, weed, and entertainment.

For most people, 99% of the things they use day in and day out are made abroad. The middle class of 1960 can't survive in those industries alone, not in a consumption economy and the cost of education in this country is turning us into a caste system.
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No, there are a lot of products still in the USA that we export, and living in Michigan I know companies personally that still do on a massive scale.
 
lastflowers said:
[Not claiming veracity, just this is part of the argument that doesn't surface into these discussions very frequently]

http://robertreich.org/post/111210323485
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globalization is about more than free trade you know.

I also don't see why a shift to a more service based economy is necessarily bad, especially if we take a long term approach. In the short term there might be issues since many people's skills will become less valuable, but how can you say it won't ultimately become more valuable in the long run a newer generation starts focusing on those careers that have value.

Additionally, the thing about corporations making money is that a corporation is a publicly owned entity, and anyone can invest in them should they have the money. I think one thing that absolutely needs to be done in this country is helping more people learn how to properly invest their money rather than just sticking it in a bank. Even a small bit of regular investment from a young age can lead to a lot of money by the time you retire, but I don't think enough Americans really understand stuff like that really well
 
Azerare said:
When it actually gets closer to the primaries and we see the two debating (which seems like Hilary) people will realize that Trump has been using nothing but buzz words and really doesn't have an actual plan.
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You realize that Trump supporters don't give a fuck about that, right? They want him because they DON'T want what they currently have. This has very little to do with Trump as a candidate, and more about the best way to make this country change in the opposite direction.
 
Aaronrules380 said:
globalization is about more than free trade you know.

I also don't see why a shift to a more service based economy is necessarily bad, especially if we take a long term approach. In the short term there might be issues since many people's skills will become less valuable, but how can you say it won't ultimately become more valuable in the long run a newer generation starts focusing on those careers that have value.

Additionally, the thing about corporations making money is that a corporation is a publicly owned entity, and anyone can invest in them should they have the money. I think one thing that absolutely needs to be done in this country is helping more people learn how to properly invest their money rather than just sticking it in a bank. Even a small bit of regular investment from a young age can lead to a lot of money by the time you retire, but I don't think enough Americans really understand stuff like that really well
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People save their money in banks because banks are mostly stable. Low risk, low reward investment -- and yes, saving is investment (because you're loaning your money to a bank, and the bank pays interest on it!) Anything tied to the stock market right now is liable to end up taking pretty nasty hits when the investments are reinvested overseas and THOSE countries' stock markets take nasty hits. Consider China, for instance. If your investment portfolio has stock in a company that is investing in Chinese manufacturing or construction, failure over there could spell failure over here. That's what happened relatively recently, when China's consumer stock market dipped hard, bringing the global stock market with it.

Smart money is on safe money, and saving enough such that the interest can pay your way. This becomes a little less efficient when interest rates are low, like they are in the US right this moment, but when they're back to normal, 1~2% returns on specialized accounts work very well.
 
Y2Kev said:
Trump is going to take outside money for the general for sure. He's not going to get by on 20 million dollars for a general election when Hillary will have a billion. I think people will be surprised when the judge he appoints also affirms citizens United. I can't understand why you'd vote for trump if this was your single issue.

Trump wants to expand the use of torture in our military and wants to bomb the shit out of the Middle East. He has no qualms about targeting civilians. His temperament is bizarre and unsteady. He was for the Iraq war before he was against it. He wants to significantly bulk up the military. I can't understand why you'd vote for trump if this was your single issue.

Trump's healthcare plan ON HIS WEBSITE is utter trash. I can't believe you'd vote for trump if this was your single issue.

Trump on trade is a bunch of nebulous nothing's about making better deals. In his life, he exploits foreign labor and got rich doing so. He doesn't actually care enough to articulate coherent policy on this. I can't believe you'd vote for trump if this was your single issue.

I am a Hillary voter who would 100% vote for Bernie in a general and be happy to do so. I can't see any rational alignment from a policy standpoint of Bernie and trump. If you do, maybe you think otherwise about his temperament or something but I seriously suggest you should get that checked out.

Vote for Jill stein if you want.
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Why won't the Hillary voters vote for Bernie now in the primaries? I just don't get this. I understand choosing Hillary over Trump in the general. But I'm just so baffled as to why the voters in these primaries are choosing Hillary over Bernie. These are the same people who chose Obama over Hillary in 2008!
 
RedSparc said:
Globalization is a bad thing because America doesn't manufacture anything for export anymore except for Debt, weapons, financial products, software, weed, and entertainment.

For most people, 99% of the things they use day in and day out are made abroad. The middle class of 1960 can't survive in those industries alone, not in a consumption economy and the cost of education in this country is turning us into a caste system.
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Walk me through it, then.

If we don't make these things anymore, what happens when we impose tariffs on them? What do you think happens to prices, particularly for poor people?

What happens to poor people in other countries?
 
Unknown Soldier said:
Why won't the Hillary voters vote for Bernie now in the primaries? I just don't get this. I understand choosing Hillary over Trump in the general. But I'm just so baffled as to why the voters in these primaries are choosing Hillary over Bernie. These are the same people who chose Obama over Hilllary is 2008!
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Because more democrats are more like Hillary than Bernie? I mean you said it yourself. They voted for Obama. And now Hillary is saying she is Obama 2.0.
 
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