In addition, exploitation has been around for the whole of human civilization thus far. We have gotten morally better as a species over time, but we are not perfect, nor do we live in a perfect world. People in 2216 will consider us as barbaric and stupid as we consider people in 1816 to be. There is only so much a single person can do in regards to moral wrongs, even if that person knows it's a moral wrong.
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Does One Require Ignorance or Cognitive Dissonance to Watch Pornography or Eat Meat?
- Thread starter Aizo
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In addition, exploitation has been around for the whole of human civilization thus far. We have gotten morally better as a species over time, but we are not perfect, nor do we live in a perfect world. People in 2216 will consider us as barbaric and stupid as we consider people in 1816 to be. There is only so much a single person can do in regards to moral wrongs, even if that person knows it's a moral wrong.
Well usually I feel hungry before I eat it then full afterwards.
In all seriousness, I don't care what happens to the animals I eat. So there's no guilt or cognitive dissonance.
travisbickle
Member
I blame it on "the spectacle."
"In all its specific forms, as information or propaganda, as advertisement or direct entertainment consumption, the spectacle is the present model of socially dominant life. It is the omnipresent affirmation of the choice already made in production and its corollary consumption." Society of The Spectacle, Guy De Bord
Not consuming porn or meat as we do now will only stop when that can happen through profitable capitalist modes of production. Right now to stop either takes radical steps and doesn't make money.
Most of society would say we "need" both to act like rational human beings, but Guy De Bord would say both make profit in a capitalist society and our belief that we need them is manipulated by this.
"In all its specific forms, as information or propaganda, as advertisement or direct entertainment consumption, the spectacle is the present model of socially dominant life. It is the omnipresent affirmation of the choice already made in production and its corollary consumption." Society of The Spectacle, Guy De Bord
Not consuming porn or meat as we do now will only stop when that can happen through profitable capitalist modes of production. Right now to stop either takes radical steps and doesn't make money.
Most of society would say we "need" both to act like rational human beings, but Guy De Bord would say both make profit in a capitalist society and our belief that we need them is manipulated by this.
djplaeskool
Member
Feel guilty?
Nope, not really.
I gave up on feeling guilty about consumption and consumerism a while ago.
Lessen my footprint? Sure. I'm mindful of things, and have made some changes.
but as you said...
Nope, not really.
I gave up on feeling guilty about consumption and consumerism a while ago.
Lessen my footprint? Sure. I'm mindful of things, and have made some changes.
but as you said...
I eat whatever tastes good. If a tofu burger tasted better than a hamburger I would eat that instead. I don't see how the raising of animals in poor conditions or their subsequent butchering should affect my eating habits. That's just how the world has always been. One animal kills and eats another animal.
As for porn, I honestly don't know anyone that pays for it. Admitting to doing so would porbably be met with ridicule considering how easy it is to access it. So I don't think I'm supporting the industry. In terms of resolving the exploitation of woman in Japan, regardless of it being true or not, I don't think people evaluating their porn habits solves anything. Just like animals eating other animals, people will be interested in porn/sex.
tl;dr people will always eat meat and watch porn. Telling people not to do so goes against nature and I would suspect that the people you spoke to were annoyed that you were wasting their time rather than your stance on the topic.
As for porn, I honestly don't know anyone that pays for it. Admitting to doing so would porbably be met with ridicule considering how easy it is to access it. So I don't think I'm supporting the industry. In terms of resolving the exploitation of woman in Japan, regardless of it being true or not, I don't think people evaluating their porn habits solves anything. Just like animals eating other animals, people will be interested in porn/sex.
tl;dr people will always eat meat and watch porn. Telling people not to do so goes against nature and I would suspect that the people you spoke to were annoyed that you were wasting their time rather than your stance on the topic.
Beerman462
Member
When asked why you breathing so hard I believe it was Lavell Crawford that said "cause I need to live"
That's basically where I'm at with most things. If I stopped and thought about all the messed up stuff that happens in support of modern living I would literally be living in a cave somewhere in Canada foraging for my survival. All modern conveniences come at a cost, so you have to pick your battles and minimize your support of negative practices. That's why I don't buy Apple products...
That's basically where I'm at with most things. If I stopped and thought about all the messed up stuff that happens in support of modern living I would literally be living in a cave somewhere in Canada foraging for my survival. All modern conveniences come at a cost, so you have to pick your battles and minimize your support of negative practices. That's why I don't buy Apple products...
Apple comment is 100% sarcasm..except the part about not buying Apple products.
GuessMyUserName
Member
This. I just don't care.
It's not like humans are the only meat eater species, it's part of life.
PaulExcellent
Member
I fuck meat and eat sex.
You're thinking about it too much, mate.
You're thinking about it too much, mate.
John Kowalski
Banned
Seeing as how this thread is going i think this is a good time to remember that the apparent uniformity in opinion is illusory and not really representative of all humans.
Iorv3th
Member
I used to work at a butchers. Have no problem eating meat. Family has slaughtered there own cows/deer and made sausage etc. Have no problems eating it. Especially after putting all the work into it.
A lot of those animals wouldn't even be alive if it wasn't for people wanting to eat them.
I don't watch japanese porn.
A lot of those animals wouldn't even be alive if it wasn't for people wanting to eat them.
I don't watch japanese porn.
Aizo
Banned
This helps me sleep at night.
Thank you for your input! These are the kinds of posts that are interesting to read. I'm just trying to get an understanding of how others view it--for and against.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
They'll slaughter animals for food either way. I think about how many people who stop eating meat and then I realize that McDonalds is still open 24/7 and Walmart still sells meat. I have to just live my life and somehow be happy with my decisions. The rest of the world doesn't care.
It's the same with pornography. Sure it's unrealistic, but the people making it are attractive and they are in situations that would typically be desirable. The actors and actresses are enjoying themselves. There's a dark side to just about everything, but porn stars still make what they do interesting. Granted I'd rather be with a real woman and so forth. I don't think about all the bad porn or what else people do. I see the restrictions put in place and there's probably a lot out there I don't want to know.
As far as phones and technology go, who really cares? Who here payed $600+ for a cell phone? A cell phone costs as much as VR or a high end computer. I'm typing on one that was $50 with a plan. It normally costs $600 because it's an iPhone. I can't magically change things, so I enjoy life. There's things I wish I could change, but I'm not entirely satisfied to care about small details. Half the time it's another person's job to care that much. What if I never get to eat again? Have sex? Or get to play a game or check my email? I can't worry about who made it or what some sin it should be considered? Maybe that next meal or the next adult film star I see lightens my mood and calms me down? Maybe the next phone I buy I use to take pictures of a potential girlfriend.
I will say this, when I'm petting my dogs or I'm playing with them, I realize someone out there is abusing them and hurting them. I realize I can't save them from abuse unless I can see it. All the organizations want is money. I can just love my pets and enjoy the time I'm with them. I can't tell a man to stop slaughtering cows and chickens when his livelihood depends on it and people raise animals for food. I can't tell a person to not have sex because there's porn videos uploaded every day from people enjoying themselves. I also can't stop perverts from doing their crime either.
Ignorance is only bad when you could have potentially not gotten yourself into something you don't want to be in, but you chose to do anyway. If there's no blame then there's no ignorance. It's like me telling you that you shouldn't, but in reality you'd probably be better off had you just done it.
It's the same with pornography. Sure it's unrealistic, but the people making it are attractive and they are in situations that would typically be desirable. The actors and actresses are enjoying themselves. There's a dark side to just about everything, but porn stars still make what they do interesting. Granted I'd rather be with a real woman and so forth. I don't think about all the bad porn or what else people do. I see the restrictions put in place and there's probably a lot out there I don't want to know.
As far as phones and technology go, who really cares? Who here payed $600+ for a cell phone? A cell phone costs as much as VR or a high end computer. I'm typing on one that was $50 with a plan. It normally costs $600 because it's an iPhone. I can't magically change things, so I enjoy life. There's things I wish I could change, but I'm not entirely satisfied to care about small details. Half the time it's another person's job to care that much. What if I never get to eat again? Have sex? Or get to play a game or check my email? I can't worry about who made it or what some sin it should be considered? Maybe that next meal or the next adult film star I see lightens my mood and calms me down? Maybe the next phone I buy I use to take pictures of a potential girlfriend.
I will say this, when I'm petting my dogs or I'm playing with them, I realize someone out there is abusing them and hurting them. I realize I can't save them from abuse unless I can see it. All the organizations want is money. I can just love my pets and enjoy the time I'm with them. I can't tell a man to stop slaughtering cows and chickens when his livelihood depends on it and people raise animals for food. I can't tell a person to not have sex because there's porn videos uploaded every day from people enjoying themselves. I also can't stop perverts from doing their crime either.
Ignorance is only bad when you could have potentially not gotten yourself into something you don't want to be in, but you chose to do anyway. If there's no blame then there's no ignorance. It's like me telling you that you shouldn't, but in reality you'd probably be better off had you just done it.
I'm fine with eating meat. We domesticated many animals for this purpose. But here's the thing about domesticated animals. They tend not to have a fantastic time in the wild.
For example, Marino sheep don't shed their wool. If one escapes, they can end up dying horribly in the wild because the size and weight of their fleece makes movement and eating quite difficult. In a similar vein, breeds of sheep and cow that are bred to maximise meat production often have issues with mobility at speed due to the weight of their excessively large muscles. If the world were to stop eating meat tomorrow, most of these animals would have to be euthanised instead of released into the wild.
For example, Marino sheep don't shed their wool. If one escapes, they can end up dying horribly in the wild because the size and weight of their fleece makes movement and eating quite difficult. In a similar vein, breeds of sheep and cow that are bred to maximise meat production often have issues with mobility at speed due to the weight of their excessively large muscles. If the world were to stop eating meat tomorrow, most of these animals would have to be euthanised instead of released into the wild.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
I ate a delicious veal shank tonight, might potentially watch some porn too. Will sleep like a baby I'm sure.
andythinkpad
Member
I don't understand this porn argument. Watching porn and making porn to be seen are social activities. Human are social animal. You feel "guilty" about porn only within certain cultural context. There are plenty of cultures out there that won't make you feel guilty about watching porn. And there is no scientific reason to feel guilty about watching porn unless you wack off too much and can't have normal sex.
Also, only some of the Japanese porn are oppressed porn. When I said "oppressed porn", I meant "pretend oppressed porn" for the most part. I have seen enough Japanese porn to know that there are no reason for a lot of the weird actor/actress to be in the porn unless they enjoy being seen. They are no much different from twitch.tv hosts.
What I am saying is...OP you are projecting too much of your feelings to other people and maybe they don't even feel that way at all.
Also, only some of the Japanese porn are oppressed porn. When I said "oppressed porn", I meant "pretend oppressed porn" for the most part. I have seen enough Japanese porn to know that there are no reason for a lot of the weird actor/actress to be in the porn unless they enjoy being seen. They are no much different from twitch.tv hosts.
What I am saying is...OP you are projecting too much of your feelings to other people and maybe they don't even feel that way at all.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'm just fine with being a bad person. Like pointing out people being just as bad or worse though who consider themselves on some moral high ground.
exmachina64
Banned
Feel guilty?
Nope, not really.
I gave up on feeling guilty about consumption and consumerism a while ago.
Lessen my footprint? Sure. I'm mindful of things, and have made some changes.
but as you said...
.
I respect and appreciate the animals I eat.
I feel sad for the kids forced to make the devices I use.
I don't enjoy professional porn anyway, but it's important to be aware that the entire world of porn isn't seedy and it's not right to deny a man or woman's autonomy in being able to choose to partake in it.
I feel sad for the kids forced to make the devices I use.
I don't enjoy professional porn anyway, but it's important to be aware that the entire world of porn isn't seedy and it's not right to deny a man or woman's autonomy in being able to choose to partake in it.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
We are wired to not feel empathy for everything that should, I don't think one could function if one did.
SHAFT MASTER
Banned
I have thought about this a bit myself and came to the conclusion that you'd have to change pretty much everything about out lives to make a difference. Because no matter what you look at: phones, meat, the bricks that make up your house, some poor fucker, somewhere down the line is getting exploited. That's just the way it is.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Shit. Had a serious answer. I'm done now lol. Thanks for the save!
...Scatter...
Banned
"Some drawn" LOL
I have no problem with the consumption of livestock we raise for that purpose. Chicken, Beef, Pork etc. I do not believe we should eat animals that are not considered livestock such as cats/dogs, Dolphins (the mammal), etc.
As for porn.... I mean in the history of humankind we've done a lot worse than give a hot chick a hung guy to sleep with. I'm 100% against rape/exploitation and human trafficking however.
Less cognitive dissonance and more cognitive realization - yeah... yeah, I'm a jerk like that. But I'll take my vices and work towards bettering them through intelligent observation/application/consumption of technology.
Like seriously... one can only care about so many things, and attempting to care about everything without some slack for the self is just a road to dysfunction. Also, your point of view will be derided by others as unrealistic and unworkable.
Pick your battles where you can. I pick the big picture long reach issues related to technology, human nature, meaning and purpose as a whole, and so I allow myself slack on what I perceive are smaller issues.
Like seriously... one can only care about so many things, and attempting to care about everything without some slack for the self is just a road to dysfunction. Also, your point of view will be derided by others as unrealistic and unworkable.
Pick your battles where you can. I pick the big picture long reach issues related to technology, human nature, meaning and purpose as a whole, and so I allow myself slack on what I perceive are smaller issues.
Langdon Alger
Banned
Why don't you care? There's no logical reasoning that could make you think most of those animals aren't suffering or that their suffering doesn't matter. Are you coming it from a "God made them for us to eat angle" or the naturalistic fallacy "it's part of nature" angle?
With meat eating the morality of it's production is rather subjective. I know the process, I don't feel guilty or "responsible" in anyway because I don't feel there is anything to be guilty or feel responsible about.
Porn is different, but there are so many different types being made from different cultures and companies and people that it's hard to nail down a way to feel about it besides aroused. If you give a specific example (yours in the OP for example) we can all feel bad about the women involved but then go and jerk it to some other porn later on. It's easy to distance yourself from it because it's just an extension of your fantasy.
Porn is different, but there are so many different types being made from different cultures and companies and people that it's hard to nail down a way to feel about it besides aroused. If you give a specific example (yours in the OP for example) we can all feel bad about the women involved but then go and jerk it to some other porn later on. It's easy to distance yourself from it because it's just an extension of your fantasy.
...Scatter...
Banned
If I didn't eat that chicken something else in nature would.
Do you punish a wolf from stalking prey. Do you demolish a bear for eating fish? Do you think it's right that a tiger takes down a gazelle?
Aizo
Banned
You're avoiding the whole question, though. Are you aware of the circumstances of the production of what you're enjoying? If you are, and you're still happy with it, that's fine, but I'm curious to know why you feel guilt-free.
I don't eat meat, so that's out the window.
Porn? I watch amateur stuff exclusively, so I don't feel guilty at all.
Phones? Well, I'm not a big phone person, having not bought myself a phone since 2006. But on the subject of child/forced labour & consumer electronics, and how I deal with it... Well, I'm a heartless bastard. I've watched & read quite a few reviews over the years on how manufacturers in China & other parts of Asia take advantage of those with no alternatives, but it's never once entered my mind when buying a new gadget. My personal satisfaction is more important to me, as it is to (almost) everyone else posting in this thread from an internet enabled device that was no doubt made (in part) by forced labour.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
He's a badass Puerto Rican from the Bronx tho..feelings don't mean a thing..
Littlefang
Member
I always feel bad about eating pigs because of their high intelligence. But bacon is too delicious for me to give up. I feel so guilty when I think about it. So yeah I definitely have some cognitive dissonance between eating meat and how I feel about it.
Aizo
Banned
What am I projecting?
Also, your argument that watching porn makes you aware of the real life circumstances is something I don't understand. I'm not sure that you read most of the post, or maybe you're confused about the article I mentioned.
I'm not talking about fetishistic porn in which someone is treated poorly for the camera (which is a different subject entirely). I'm talking about women being threatened and forced to work in porn when they don't want to.
And what is this about scientific facts for feeling guilt? I never said you had to feel guilty.
Already Torn
Banned
I feel bad about eating meat, but I recognize that there's no way I'd be able to go vegetarian, so instead I try to eat less of it to lower the demand. But like going vegetarian is pretty bad for the environment too.
Permanently A
Junior Member
I guess the answer to your question is that my personal satisfaction matters more to me than someone or some animal very far away from me suffering. If you put a chicken in front of me and told me to kill it to eat it I wouldn't do it because then I'm partaking in the process. But as it is I'm pretty much totally removed from the process beyond purchasing the final product. So I support the system, but I'm not actively involved in the process, which is probably what allows me to rationalize my decisions and absolve myself of responsibility.
Miss.Selfdestruct
Member
You're born into a specific environment and you either learn to accept the horrors behind the means that allow you to thrive or let it consume you.
Already Torn
Banned
The obvious difference here is that plants can't feel suffering in the same way we recognize it, as opposed to chickens, pigs, cows, etc. This is why a lot of people don't approve of the modern meat industry (especially as it applies to poultry and pork), but are more open to free-range farms and hunting.
Everything has to die, and if something can die in a way that ultimately has meaning (being dinner) then that's great. We probably shouldn't be forcing those animals to live lives full of horrible suffering though. That ain't cool.
Of course, the line drawn between humans and other intelligent animals is super arbitrary, so we should probably try to avoid killing any kind of animal unnecessarily, you know? Like people who run over turtles for fun have some deep personal issues.
andythinkpad
Member
But you are still projecting. How can you tell which actress is being forced and which actress is not being forced?
Do you know Andy Lau once was pointed a gun to his head by a triad and told to finish a movie? Are you going to stop watching Asian movies all together?
I will take back the guilty argument.
andythinkpad
Member
I don't see the difference between plants and lab grow food.
As for animals, these is already a 2000 year old religion that trys to avoid killing any living being. Its called Jainism. Anybody feel strongly about it, there you go.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
Sad part is, the adult entertainment industry is a $14 billion dollar industry while smaller divisions of porn are what $3 to $5 billion a piece. Porn itself is an incredibly large industry that couldn't be shut down over night. A large percentage of people have sex and a lot of people simply take pictures or film movies. You'd have to feel guilty by just being turned on to get rid of it. That's impossible and rather or not you are sexually active doesn't mean you somehow stopped someone else from being sexually active.
I'm just adding to what you said because there's really no way to tell, which is why the FBI gets involved. Regardless if you're for or against porn, the main service it tries to exploit is natural. Sex is just that important to society to exist. You don't have to have anything special about you to procreate. If anything you have to catch the people breaking the rules, but even that's harder considering you're dealing with states that have legal ages of consent. You aren't going to find a reason to escape it unless you just stop having sex period.
I finally made the full switch to being vegan. It took me a year to progressively move away from animal products (in the last 6 months I ate non-vegan food only once or twice a week). Instead of feeling guilty about eating meat I looked at it the other way: I was looking at how much meat/animal products I was not eating and feeling good for making that effort.
I made the switch without watching any documentary because I thought that making a choice out of principles was more likely to stick than making one because I was shocked by the footage I saw.
About porn, I never really thought about it tbh, I should probably inform myself.
I made the switch without watching any documentary because I thought that making a choice out of principles was more likely to stick than making one because I was shocked by the footage I saw.
About porn, I never really thought about it tbh, I should probably inform myself.
Monocle
Member
I have a vague awareness that my relatively comfortable existence is an indirect product of exploitation and suffering. I don't see the point of diffuse guilt. I try to appreciate what I have, take responsibility for the direct effects of my actions, and look for opportunities to make a difference more broadly, like for instance voting against science-denying opportunists as often as possible.
If I were rich, maybe philanthropy and maintaining a highly conscientious lifestyle would be bigger priorities for me. Right now I'm just trying to work through my personal problems and achieve my goals for a more fulfilling life.
As for whether I feel guilty about having a smartphone, eating meat, and watching (mostly gay) porn? Nope, I'm a consumer. Hopefully I'll get to a point in my career where I'm creating and contributing enough to justify that.
If I were rich, maybe philanthropy and maintaining a highly conscientious lifestyle would be bigger priorities for me. Right now I'm just trying to work through my personal problems and achieve my goals for a more fulfilling life.
As for whether I feel guilty about having a smartphone, eating meat, and watching (mostly gay) porn? Nope, I'm a consumer. Hopefully I'll get to a point in my career where I'm creating and contributing enough to justify that.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
You know how tuna fish cans had those "dolphin safe" logos on them?
I wish pornography would have something like that (well, minus the discussion of literal dolphins) so you can know that the women in them are happy with their careers and enjoy them and aren't being forced to do porn for some terrible reason. It would be nice.
I wish pornography would have something like that (well, minus the discussion of literal dolphins) so you can know that the women in them are happy with their careers and enjoy them and aren't being forced to do porn for some terrible reason. It would be nice.
Already Torn
Banned
Plants are living beings, as are the millions of bacteria that your body more or less automatically kills 😦
But yeah, I think that's pretty unrealistic and avoids the real problem. Like there are lots of situations where it's absolutely necessary to kill things (hello white-tailed deer). But there's a good way and a bad way to go about it.
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