Support NeoGAF

[Taelus]

Writing is done. What do you expect the writer to do? Twiddle his thumbs?

We don't know for sure the writing is done. Also, from what I heard in a David Gaider interview, Bioware's writing team does things differently than a lot of studios.They work a lot closer with the other departments and are a lot more involved throughout the dev process.

The lead writer generally only does the main story and narrative, DLC is left to the other writers.

Nope, the lead writer works on DLC too. His job is not only to write, but to direct the rest of the writing team. (at least at Bioware)

 

[HamsterExAstris]

I'm betting they're going for a Hawke situation, where they'll look at the reception of the game and move forward from that.

Because everyone does realize that Hawke was designed to lead more than one game, right? It was the public's rejection of DA2 that led to him being shunted to the side.

I know there was supposed to be a DA2 expansion that got cancelled. But more than one game? After they tied her and her companions so tightly to Kirkwall I don't think that would work.

 

[Pooya]

Halo 4's story telling wasn't that different from Destiny. There are all this lore background in outside content and the game being just telling you go destroy 3x of that and this over and over with cryptic non sense voice overs. Destiny is just even less subtle. For a game like Destiny they want to keep the story as simple as possible so it makes sense if they want to pursue a similar approach again. It's a game they will have to release a constant stream of content; story, voice acting and things like that are just a constant obstacle to get things done so everything has to be really basic. This doesn't mean it has to be boring and awful, that's still on the writers to work what with they can fit in the game and use those brevity skills to tell a simple but compelling story,

 

[Mivey]

Huh...different strokes I guess. The conversation with Sovereign is usually generally regarded as one of the coolest moments in the trilogy from conversations I've seen here on GAF and elsewhere. I thought he came off as extremely sinister and foreboding.

I feel that scene probably represents beautifully what is wrong with modern BioWare writing: It puts too much emphasis on the main character, on the player. A race of superior machine beings would not think in terms of individuals, but have some sort of hive mind. Also they would not consider "Shepard did this to us", but "Humanity did this to us". Maybe not even that, only seeing humanity as part of the larger present cycle. But instead the typical BioWare writing goes out of its way to make the main character as important as is possible.
In ME1 all this lead to was this silly speech. In ME2 you had the Collectors, and through them, the Reapers hunting Shepard down. They really don't have better things to do? Like using the whole Collector fleet to make a surprise attack on the Citadel while their defences were still down? But no, let's just start collecting humans, and spend resources into finding a specific human being. Yep, that makes sense. *sigh*

Their deification of the main character is beyond ridiculous. To the point where it self-referentially making fun about it in DA2 was probably one of the funniest things, especially since they kept doing in that game too, even though it was about humanizing the typical "epic hero" storyline. They are like a drug addict at this point.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I feel that scene probably represents beautifully what is wrong with modern BioWare writing: It puts too much emphasis on the main character, on the player. A race of superior machine beings would not think in terms of individuals, but have some sort of hive mind. Also they would not consider "Shepard did this to us", but "Humanity did this to us". Maybe not even that, only seeing humanity as part of the larger present cycle. But instead the typical BioWare writing goes out of its way to make the main character as important as is possible.
In ME1 all this lead to was this silly speech. In ME2 you had the Collectors, and through them, the Reapers hunting Shepard down. They really don't have better things to do? Like using the whole Collector fleet to make a surprise attack on the Citadel while their defences were still down? But no, let's just start collecting humans, and spend resources into finding a specific human being. Yep, that makes sense. *sigh*

Their deification of the main character is beyond ridiculous. To the point where it self-referentially making fun about it in DA2 was probably one of the funniest things, especially since they kept doing in that game too, even though it was about humanizing the typical "epic hero" storyline. They are like a drug addict at this point.

Bioware knows their fans love feeling special so they apparently always need to make the player character 'the special'. As much crap as DA2 gets, and as much as it still has you be the special, Hawke isn't anywhere near what other bioware protags were. Your sphere of influence basically boiled down to being around big situations and playing a hand on them as your fame in the city grew

 

[The Artisan]

Before jumping to conclusion, I think this is normal in industry right? People leave when they finish their work

Me4 isn't finished though

I thought the normal thing was people splitting because they didn't like who they were working for

 

[shinobi602]

I feel that scene probably represents beautifully what is wrong with modern BioWare writing: It puts too much emphasis on the main character, on the player. A race of superior machine beings would not think in terms of individuals, but have some sort of hive mind.

Individuality is lost all of a sudden when you're talking about hyper advanced, unstoppable AI killing machines? I don't necessarily buy that.

Also they would not consider "Shepard did this to us", but "Humanity did this to us". Maybe not even that, only seeing humanity as part of the larger present cycle. But instead the typical BioWare writing goes out of its way to make the main character as important as is possible.

This is kind of going off topic since I was just discussing Sovereign's initial conversation with Shepard but just to address it, the Reapers paid attention to Shepard and humanity as a whole (hence going after human colonies and harvesting them in ME2) after Shepard basically spearheaded the attack and destruction of Sovereign. It's natural humanity, and especially Shepard would have their attention afterwards.

In ME1 all this lead to was this silly speech. In ME2 you had the Collectors, and through them, the Reapers hunting Shepard down. They really don't have better things to do? Like using the whole Collector fleet to make a surprise attack on the Citadel while their defences were still down? But no, let's just start collecting humans, and spend resources into finding a specific human being. Yep, that makes sense. *sigh*

I agree that they could have done most of that themselves but they're in dark space, using repurposed Protheans (Collectors) to do their work until they arrive again. Again Shepard was important because of the things he/she pulled off.

Their deification of the main character is beyond ridiculous. To the point where it self-referentially making fun about it in DA2 was probably one of the funniest things, especially since they kept doing in that game too, even though it was about humanizing the typical "epic hero" storyline. They are like a drug addict at this point.

It sounds like you really don't like being a hero in games to me. Which is fine, it's different tastes for different people. I'm able to enjoy just being someone smaller in the wider scheme of things like The Witcher games as well as being a leader and a hero in Bioware's games. I don't think they have to change their design philosophy necessarily, that's their shtick.

 

[Mivey]

Individuality is lost all of a sudden when you're talking about hyper advanced, unstoppable AI killing machines? I don't necessarily buy that.

I want to expand this, since I may have not expressed what I meant very well. Think about in this analogy: You are a farmer (or someone tasked by said farmer) who has a termite problem and for whatever reason they are giving you more trouble than usual, they resist every attempt at getting rid of them. And there is even one that bit you in the hand when you got careless. Will you know drop everything in the hunt of that single individual termite, either hoping that its demise will demoralize the rest or because you actually assume it could become a more serious threat?
Or .. you don't give a fuck and don't consider them as individuals, no matter their absolute "intelligence". To you as homo sapiens they are mindless insects. (Because they are)


Of course I am aware that BioWare is catering to a large audience here, and there is nothing wrong with enjoying their games. I am just articulating why I have gotten more and more annoyed by their recent games, while still adoring their earliest work.

 

[Plasma]

So I guess Walters is going to be the lead writer of this new trilogy once everything is said and done too?

Guess we can expect lots of speculation.

 

[shinobi602]

I want to expand this, since I may have not expressed what I meant very well. Think about in this analogy: You are a farmer (or someone tasked by said farmer) who has a termite problem and for whatever reason they are giving you more trouble than usual, they resist every attempt at getting rid of them. And there is even one that bit you in the hand when you got careless. Will you know drop everything in the hunt of that single individual termite, either hoping that its demise will demoralize the rest or because you actually assume it could become a more serious threat?
Or .. you don't give a fuck and don't consider them as individuals, no matter their absolute "intelligence". To you as homo sapiens they are mindless insects. (Because they are) .

I don't think this analogy really works to be honest. The Reapers see humanity and other spacefaring races as intelligent species capable of rising and advancing in power and technology, hence their reason in wiping out advanced species, leaving lower life forms unharmed, and reseeding the galaxy every 50k years.

Destroying Sovereign isn't comparable to a 'bite' on the hand. Humans (and the other races) destroyed one of the vanguards of the Reapers, causing their embarrassing failure to light the signal for their return. An extremely powerful Reaper. That's not something that happens normally. It's natural to want to investigate and find out just what the heck happened from the Reapers' perspective.

 

[Mivey]

It's natural to want to investigate and find out just what the heck happened from the Reapers' perspective.

I just don't see any convincing argument why such an investigation should look anything like ME2 presented. Not while keeping in mind what was known about them in ME1 and the inevitable attack protrayed in ME3.
There was no pressing need to built a new reaper when a few years down the line they were planning to attack and upend all Citadel races anyway. They could simply do it in peace later, when they slowly finished of the last remaining vestiges of humans, salarians, etc.
And the focus on "The Shepard" just boarded on ludicrous near the end.

While I'm thinking about it, a lot of the stuff that pisses me of about the ME trilogy would be way less annoying if each game was its own one of thing and not trying to be part of a larger coherent narrative.

 

[The Lamonster]

I feel that scene probably represents beautifully what is wrong with modern BioWare writing: It puts too much emphasis on the main character, on the player. A race of superior machine beings would not think in terms of individuals, but have some sort of hive mind. Also they would not consider "Shepard did this to us", but "Humanity did this to us". Maybe not even that, only seeing humanity as part of the larger present cycle. But instead the typical BioWare writing goes out of its way to make the main character as important as is possible.
In ME1 all this lead to was this silly speech. In ME2 you had the Collectors, and through them, the Reapers hunting Shepard down. They really don't have better things to do? Like using the whole Collector fleet to make a surprise attack on the Citadel while their defences were still down? But no, let's just start collecting humans, and spend resources into finding a specific human being. Yep, that makes sense. *sigh*

Their deification of the main character is beyond ridiculous. To the point where it self-referentially making fun about it in DA2 was probably one of the funniest things, especially since they kept doing in that game too, even though it was about humanizing the typical "epic hero" storyline. They are like a drug addict at this point.

Bethesda does this too, especially in recent games... the "Dragonborn" or "Sole Survivor"

I dont mind it in the case of Shepard, though. She is special..

 

[Ralemont]

In ME1 all this lead to was this silly speech. In ME2 you had the Collectors, and through them, the Reapers hunting Shepard down. They really don't have better things to do? Like using the whole Collector fleet to make a surprise attack on the Citadel while their defences were still down? But no, let's just start collecting humans, and spend resources into finding a specific human being. Yep, that makes sense. *sigh*

The Collector "fleet" isn't actually very powerful at all. They sent out one ship as their main line of defense against the Normandy and it was easily destroyed by a Thanix cannon. They target fringe colonies because they rely on surprise attacks in isolated areas to succeed. The Collectors ain't really shit. Lol @ attacking the Citadel.

On topic, I don't think it's sufficient to say "well the writing's done so this isn't unusual." It's pretty unusual for BioWare to part ways with their lead writer after one game. I have no idea the circumstances but if both sides were truly happy with one another then he'd be staying on longer than "a year before game release."

 

[anexanhume]

Huh...different strokes I guess. The conversation with Sovereign is usually generally regarded as one of the coolest moments in the trilogy from conversations I've seen here on GAF and elsewhere. I thought he came off as extremely sinister and foreboding.

Yeah, that was seriously the best moment. It's where the scope increases and is a huge turn.

I wonder how familiar Schlerf was with the universe when he joined. I would question the quality of his contribution given his short time at Bioware.

 

[Patryn]

So I guess Walters is going to be the lead writer of this new trilogy once everything is said and done too?

Again, at no point has Bioware ever said this is a new trilogy. There is no indication that it's ever been planned as a trilogy.

For whatever reason, fans just keep assuming this, but they are mistaken.

 

[Lime]

Manveer Heir is still on board, so I still have faith that it's not going to be a complete catastrophe (design-wise)

I do expect the writing to be bad though with the lead writer behind Halo 4 having penned parts of it, and Mac Walters (the writing in his comics are so fucking bad) as the creative lead.

 

[kurahador]

Do people talk to ants they're going to kill off with Raid?

Sovereign has a god complex, not god himself. He's essentially powerless at the time being alone which is why his mission was to get other Reapers.
It's like you're complaining that Sauron and Voldermort bothered to speak.

 

[Jarmel]

Again, at no point has Bioware ever said this is a new trilogy. There is no indication that it's ever been planned as a trilogy.

For whatever reason, fans just keep assuming this, but they are mistaken.

I doubt this is going to be treated as an one-off.

 

[shinobi602]

On topic, I don't think it's sufficient to say "well the writing's done so this isn't unusual." It's pretty unusual for BioWare to part ways with their lead writer after one game. I have no idea the circumstances but if both sides were truly happy with one another then he'd be staying on longer than "a year before game release."

That's not necessarily true. He could be a contracted employee, have come across a great offer from Bungie and also want a better salary in the US compared to Canada's current rates. He was on the team since November 2013, worked on the game for a good long while. No need to jump to negative conclusions

 

[Patryn]

I doubt this is going to be treated as an one-off.

But that doesn't instantly mean trilogy. I wouldn't be shocked if their experience with the original ME trilogy leads them to gunshy about trilogies instead of simply having continuing narratives a la Dragon Age with no governed end point.

 

[anexanhume]

That's not necessarily true. He could be a contracted employee, have come across a great offer from Bungie and also want a better salary in the US compared to Canada's current rates. He was on the team since November 2013, worked on the game for a good long while. No need to jump to negative conclusions

It's at least a little concerning that there's so much turbulence on the creative side of the franchise.

Bioware has been doing more remote employee things. Maybe Drew can consult again or something.

 

[shinobi602]

It's at least a little concerning that there's so much turbulence on the creative side of the franchise.

Bioware has been doing more remote employee things. Maybe Drew can consult again or something.

There really isn't 'so much turbulence' on the creative side though. The only other individual to leave the Andromeda team was Chris Wynn who was senior development manager in charge of things like scheduling and project management more than any creative role on the game. That said IIRC he (Chris) mentioned the move back to the US was better for him and his family which is fully understandable.

Schlerf was on the team for over 2 years at this point, the overall main plot/script and structure would be near complete if not completed. I have it on good authority his split was very friendly with the team. There were some transitions but the game's doing well overall.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Individuality is lost all of a sudden when you're talking about hyper advanced, unstoppable AI killing machines? I don't necessarily buy that.


This is kind of going off topic since I was just discussing Sovereign's initial conversation with Shepard but just to address it, the Reapers paid attention to Shepard and humanity as a whole (hence going after human colonies and harvesting them in ME2) after Shepard basically spearheaded the attack and destruction of Sovereign. It's natural humanity, and especially Shepard would have their attention afterwards.

I agree that they could have done most of that themselves but they're in dark space, using repurposed Protheans (Collectors) to do their work until they arrive again. Again Shepard was important because of the things he/she pulled off.

It sounds like you really don't like being a hero in games to me. Which is fine, it's different tastes for different people. I'm able to enjoy just being someone smaller in the wider scheme of things like The Witcher games as well as being a leader and a hero in Bioware's games. I don't think they have to change their design philosophy necessarily, that's their shtick.

It has nothing to do with not liking being the hero but more about not liking being the fucking messiah in every fucking bioware game, it feels forced when humanity and the fate of the entire galaxy depends entirely on the player character like nobody else literally does jackshit in the ME universe. You're not part of something to save the entire universe, you are the one and only saviour of the entire universe, and it feels forced because there's nothing particularly impressive about Sheppard's abilities or resources at his disposal, it's an irrational coronation based on nothing.

 

[anexanhume]

There really isn't 'so much turbulence' on the creative side though. The only other individual to leave the Andromeda team was Chris Wynn who was senior development manager in charge of things like scheduling and project management more than any creative role on the game. That said IIRC he (Chris) mentioned the move back to the US was better for him and his family which is fully understandable.

Schlerf was on the team for over 2 years at this point, the overall main plot/script and structure would be near complete if not completed. I have it on good authority his split was very friendly with the team. There were some transitions but the game's doing well overall.

The team also lost its director and has lost multiple writers over the course of its life. The fact that Walters has been a constant is good, but many have legitimate issues with some of his decisions.

In general, I don't like the idea of head writers bouncing in and out of a game universe. I'd like to see one person that's passionate about ME and stay there for a while. Best example I can think of is Levine's control over Bioshock.

 

[Trey]

This dude who wrote for Halo 4 also worked on Mass Effect 3?

This explains so much about the shift in Halo's overall storytelling.

 

[Patryn]

This dude who wrote for Halo 4 also worked on Mass Effect 3?

This explains so much about the shift in Halo's overall storytelling.

No.

The dude who wrote for Halo 4 wrote for Mass Effect: Andromeda, a game that has yet to be released. He has now left Bioware and joined Bungie.

 

[shinobi602]

The team also lost its director and has lost multiple writers over the course of its life. The fact that Walters has been a constant is good, but many have legitimate issues with some of his decisions.

In general, I don't like the idea of head writers bouncing in and out of a game universe. I'd like to see one person that's passionate about ME and stay there for a while. Best example I can think of is Levine's control over Bioshock.

Referring to Casey Hudson? He was really more of a mentor on the project rather than directly injecting his creative ideas into the game and consulted on some things. That mostly falls on Walters and Yanick Roy (who himself is extremely passionate on the series and has been since the original Mass Effect).

We can only speculate as to how the next ME game post-Andromeda will compare to Andromeda given the writers will differ but to be honest your Bioshock example doesn't make me lean towards it .

I loved the original Bioshock as well as Infinite but it wasn't because of the writing in Infinite's case for me personally anyway.

 

[anexanhume]

Referring to Casey Hudson? He was really more of a mentor on the project rather than directly injecting his creative ideas into the game and consulted on some things. That mostly falls on Walters and Yanick Roy (who himself is extremely passionate on the series and has been since the original Mass Effect).

We can only speculate as to how the next ME game post-Andromeda will compare to Andromeda given the writers will differ but to be honest your Bioshock example doesn't make me lean towards it .

I loved the original Bioshock as well as Infinite but it wasn't because of the writing in Infinite's case for me personally anyway.

I'm more talking about the universe living in someone's head. I think it means a lot to the consistency of the universe to have a writer who has that type of dedication to all of the intricacies of the world. At a worst case, look at how bad ME: Deception turned out.

 

[rootbeerafloat]

Terrible news for Destiny, good news for Mass Effect.

I didn't know Weekes is the lead on DA now. Was really hoping he'd get the ME reigns someday.

 

[Jarmel]

But that doesn't instantly mean trilogy. I wouldn't be shocked if their experience with the original ME trilogy leads them to gunshy about trilogies instead of simply having continuing narratives a la Dragon Age with no governed end point.

True. I don't think they're going to emulate the OG ME trilogy exactly as they've been on record about how absolutely hellish and draining it was for them. However it looks to be it's own series. Now whether that will mean the games being interconnected via saves and to what extent, that isn't clear. We don't even know what the overarching story line is. However I do suspect that whatever the story/villains are, will occur over a number of games.

I'm more talking about the universe living in someone's head. I think it means a lot to the consistency of the universe to have a writer who has that type of dedication to all of the intricacies of the world. At a worst case, look at how bad ME: Deception turned out.

For better or worse, it's in Walter's head. This is Walter's baby now.

Spoiler

It's for the worse.

 

[yanipheonu]

So is Mass Effect Andromeda coming out or....?

 

[Patryn]

So is Mass Effect Andromeda coming out or....?

Yes? It'll be out by March 2017.

I'd put money on it either being November, January or March.

 

[J_Viper]

Yes? It'll be out by March 2017.

I'd put money on it either being November, January or March.

March is Titanfall's slot isn't it?

Can't see November either, that's much too close to Battlefield.

Perhaps May?

 

[cartographer]

March is Titanfall's slot isn't it?

Can't see November either, that's much too close to Battlefield.

Perhaps May?

Probably not since that would push it out of their fiscal year.

 

[AlStrong]

Would like to see more about the patterns of civilizations as mentioned in ME3.

At a worst case, look at how bad ME: Deception turned out.

y so cereal

 

[A-V-B]

Ending aside, it might actually have been better if they hadn't tried to tie the trilogy together with a single thematic thread of organic vs synthetic life.

This wasn't really the theme of the trilogy, though, right? That's just what the Starchild stuffed in at the last second.

The theme was ALWAYS about getting people off their asses and fighting the Reapers together. Whether you did it by being an inspirational leader who crossed boundaries to tie the lives of the galaxy together, or just by being a super pragmatic dude who made people scared to fight against you, that's what it was about.

 

[Ralemont]

That's not necessarily true. He could be a contracted employee, have come across a great offer from Bungie and also want a better salary in the US compared to Canada's current rates. He was on the team since November 2013, worked on the game for a good long while. No need to jump to negative conclusions

Fair enough. Do you happen to know who the new lead writer is?

 

[CrichtonKicks]

March is Titanfall's slot isn't it?

Can't see November either, that's much too close to Battlefield.

Perhaps May?

As noted January worked well for ME2. However I could definitely see November if EA does Battlefield in October.

 

[FStop7]

All I want is for Drew K to come back.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

This wasn't really the theme of the trilogy, though, right? That's just what the Starchild stuffed in at the last second.

It was all through the third game, and they made it central to the plot as an attempt to tie the trilogy together. It's true that every game contained some of this stuff - in ME1 you had the Luna VI going rogue, the Geth as a primary enemy and the reapers being machines. ME2 had the Reapers harvesting organics to make babies implying they were a fusion of organic and synthetic life in some respect, it also fleshed out the Quarian-Geth conflict as well as both societies. The possible resolutions to the Quarian/Geth conflict and the Edi/Joker romance were both there to illustrate or at least attempt to illustrate the organic / synthetic rift and trying to reconcile it. The finale of the game integrates it into the main plot and motivation of the Reapers, which was hitherto unknown. You've been searching for solutions to the synthetic/organic conflict, and thus the end of trilogy tackles this.

 

[Sirim]

I agree with your opinion, but I didnt mind it. Mass Effect isnt some well thought out 'hard scifi', it's space opera. It's just an hollywood action movie in space; it needs 'identifiable' villains.

The Mass Effect franchise actually struggles to figure out which of these it wants to identify with.

Example: ME3

There probably is a good middle ground they could've achieved though, but that requires consistency.

 

[A-V-B]

It was all through the third game, and they made it central to the plot as an attempt to tie the trilogy together. It's true that every game contained some of this stuff - in ME1 you had the Luna VI going rogue, the Geth as a primary enemy and the reapers being machines. ME2 had the Reapers harvesting organics to make babies implying they were a fusion of organic and synthetic life in some respect, it also fleshed out the Quarian-Geth conflict as well as both societies. The possible resolutions to the Quarian/Geth conflict and the Edi/Joker romance were both there to illustrate or at least attempt to illustrate the organic / synthetic rift and trying to reconcile it. The finale of the game integrates it into the main plot and motivation of the Reapers, which was hitherto unknown. You've been searching for solutions to the synthetic/organic conflict, and thus the end of trilogy tackles this.

For the most part, though, I saw Geth vs Quarians as a quarrel between two peoples who didn't really understand each other, and were thus afraid. I knew that made the galaxy weak against the Reapers. If those groups united, everyone would benefit. It was just one story amongst many in the Galaxy, all united under the banner of "beat the Reapers." It wasn't abstract. It was human. (Or sentient, I suppose.)

But I played a Paragon Shepard, so maybe the adherence to that role "infected" my playthrough, and never let me see the bigger picture.

 

[Ralemont]

For the most part, though, I saw Geth vs Quarians as a quarrel between two peoples who didn't really understand each other, and were thus afraid. I knew that made the galaxy weak against the Reapers. If those groups united, everyone would benefit. It was just one story amongst many in the Galaxy, all united under the banner of "beat the Reapers." It wasn't abstract. It was human. (Or sentient, I suppose.)

But I played a Paragon Shepard, so maybe the adherence to that role "infected" my playthrough, and never let me see the bigger picture.

The specifics of the geth/quarian conflict are very much about organic/synthetic relations, though. The Morning War started because geth started asking about souls, which freaked out the quarians because AI were banned. So they tried to exterminate them, thinking they are just machines so who cares, and the geth fought back. The geth spared the last quarians because they couldn't calculate the repercussions of wiping them out completely, and the quarians were punished by the Council who refused to offer them any support once they were exiled because they had broken the AI ban.

Basically, the whole history of why the geth are who they are at the start of the series and why the quarians are where they are is pretty specifically tied to the geth being synthetic beings created by the quarians.

 

[cartographer]

All I want is for Drew K to come back.

He's back at BioWare Austin since around September of last year. He initially said he would be back on SWTOR but his posts on his website make it sound like he could be working on something else. Could be either of the two unannounced projects BW is apparently developing,

 

[A-V-B]

The specifics of the geth/quarian conflict are very much about organic/synthetic relations, though. The Morning War started because geth started asking about souls, which freaked out the quarians because AI were banned. So they tried to exterminate them, thinking they are just machines so who cares, and the geth fought back. The geth spared the last quarians because they couldn't calculate the repercussions of wiping them out completely, and the quarians were punished by the Council who refused to offer them any support once they were exiled because they had broken the AI ban.

Basically, the whole history of why the geth are who they are at the start of the series and why the quarians are where they are is pretty specifically tied to the geth being synthetic beings created by the quarians.

But the problem is still fundamentally about being alive. Organic/synthetic, that's the background, but humans single out humans. Humans put bans on other humans. Humans treat other humans as not mattering. Humans try to exterminate other "non-human" humans.

They may have different needs due to what keeps them functioning biologically or technologically. However, they're all sentient, they're all people. This is what people do to each other.

And that's part of what makes what the Starchild said so absurd. It based its reasoning on there being an inseparable divide. What it's really trying to get at, and doesn't know it, is that people will always fight people. In a more romantic version of Mass Effect 3, you could just blow up the Starchild's head with a good Kirk speech.

 

[Ralemont]

But the problem is still fundamentally about being alive. Organic/synthetic, that's the background, but humans single out humans. Humans put bans on other humans. Humans treat other humans as not mattering. Humans try to exterminate other "non-human" humans.

I think there's ample reason for why the Catalyst focuses on organic/synthetic relations, not the least of which being the Leviathan backstory where he was created to solve that and only that problem. And you aren't even necessarily supposed to agree with all his reasons for focusing on organics/synthetics (he is the villain, after all).

I take it the larger issue is BioWare deciding that the Reaper wars should have organic/synthetic conflict as the central theme. In which case, this really goes all the way back to Mass Effect 1. Even before Sovereign, Saren's entire dream for subjugating the galaxy's races to the Reapers was so that organics and synthetics could enter into a type of symbiosis with the strengths of both and the weaknesses of neither. Then Sovereign shows up, and pretty much the entirety of his speech is WE ROBOTS YOU SQUISHIES. Right from the first game the Reaper conflict is framed in terms of synthetics vs. organics.

So, in-universe, there are explained reasons why the Catalyst focuses only on synthetic v organic. Thematically that's how it's always been framed, with a few subplots like the geth/quarian war to boot. You might say that fundamentally it's about being alive, but that doesn't change that the central question of the geth/quarian arc is explicitly about whether synthetics are alive. How the writers choose to express the conflict with dialogue and plot is very important. Otherwise you could just say that every story is fundamentally about being alive.

But beyond all that, I think there's something even beyond organic/synthetic conflict when it comes to Mass Effect 3's endings, which is that ME3's ending is really a discussion of cycles framed through the context of organic/synthetic conflict. Film Critic Hulk and some others have discussed the ending in this vein and it's really my favorite way to see the endings now. Which isn't saying much, but still.

Disclaimer: I don't like the endings. I just don't have any problems with BioWare choosing organic/synthetic conflict as the way to frame the Reaper war. Instead the issue is having a character sit there and hack out all this shit. There are few situations where it's ever a good idea to have characters openly talk about "what the story is about." It's clumsy and completely breaks the mood.

 

[10k]

There's hope for Destiny 2, yet.

 

[funkystudent]

Oh god. DIdnt realise it was the Halo 4 guy.



Well... Destiny 2 will have a story at least. Even if its terrible it will exist so its better then what was in Destiny 1.

 

[A-V-B]

I think there's ample reason for why the Catalyst focuses on organic/synthetic relations, not the least of which being the Leviathan backstory where he was created to solve that and only that problem. And you aren't even necessarily supposed to agree with all his reasons for focusing on organics/synthetics (he is the villain, after all).

I take it the larger issue is BioWare deciding that the Reaper wars should have organic/synthetic conflict as the central theme. In which case, this really goes all the way back to Mass Effect 1. Even before Sovereign, Saren's entire dream for subjugating the galaxy's races to the Reapers was so that organics and synthetics could enter into a type of symbiosis with the strengths of both and the weaknesses of neither. Then Sovereign shows up, and pretty much the entirety of his speech is WE ROBOTS YOU SQUISHIES. Right from the first game the Reaper conflict is framed in terms of synthetics vs. organics.

So, in-universe, there are explained reasons why the Catalyst focuses only on synthetic v organic. Thematically that's how it's always been framed, with a few subplots like the geth/quarian war to boot. You might say that fundamentally it's about being alive, but that doesn't change that the central question of the geth/quarian arc is explicitly about whether synthetics are alive. How the writers choose to express the conflict with dialogue and plot is very important. Otherwise you could just say that every story is fundamentally about being alive.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there's the part of the story they wanted us to feel was the most important element, and then there's the one that functioned anyway regardless of authorial intent. It's like there can be two stories in a video game. The one that plays in cutscenes, and the story that adds up as you play the game. The most "honest to medium" video game stories utilize both into the same package. For example, I think few stories are as truthful to video games as ICO, because the story and the game are so innately intertwined. Two kids learn how to hold hands and care about each other's lives.

By playing a game, the set of actions you use creates the living story.

So if the Starchild, who you can't actually refute, tells you that oh yeah synethetics are gonna wipe out organics no matter what, but in gameplay you just told the story of overcoming that conflict, and both Geth and Quarians are still around...

Interaction is gonna trump exposition, every time. Maybe that's what we need to learn in video games, right? If you're gonna tell a differently toned story than the players are going to create-via-interaction, you're already making fundamental mistakes.

Disclaimer: I don't like the endings.

I hear ya.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there's the part of the story they wanted us to feel was the most important element, and then there's the one that functioned anyway regardless of authorial intent. It's like there can be two stories in a video game. The one that plays in cutscenes, and the story that adds up as you play the game. The most "honest to medium" video game stories utilize both into the same package. For example, I think few stories are as truthful to video games as ICO, because the story and the game are so innately intertwined. Two kids learn how to hold hands and care about each other's lives.

By playing a game, the set of actions you use creates the living story.

So if the Starchild, who you can't actually refute, tells you that oh yeah synethetics are gonna wipe out organics no matter what, but in gameplay you just told the story of overcoming that conflict, and both Geth and Quarians are still around...

Interaction is gonna trump exposition, every time. Maybe that's what we need to learn in video games, right? If you're gonna tell a differently toned story than the players are going to create-via-interaction, you're already making fundamental mistakes.



I hear ya.

It kind of depends, if you go into ME3 fresh and have no imports the Quarian / Geth
conflict can't be resolved particularly well and it acts in a way that kind of supports starchild's point. Although it is definitely ridiculous, if the Q/G war ends with the destruction of one side it at least in line with that idea. But most people who were invested will be able to resolve it peacefully on account of imports unless they're in full dickhead mode and deliberately want one side to explode. Them being together, and Edi/Joker romance both combine to make the final spiel from star child pretty ridiculous. Yes there has been conflict but his central thesis has been pretty much debunked by your own experience.

Actually ME3 with no import is a lot more brutal all over with more people dying and it feels a bit more desperate.