Movalpolos
Banned
That's not really a "PC gaming is dead" comment. But whatever going off-topic now.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
The Witness is being heavily pirated. J. Blow says piracy could impact his future.
- Thread starter Raylan
- Start date
- Status
That's not really a "PC gaming is dead" comment. But whatever going off-topic now.
MetalGearOnlineK
Member
If anything I think that $40 is a low price for this game. I understand people's apprehension of spending that much on what could be easily viewed as "An indie puzzle game", but after playing it, you quickly discover that the game is PACKED with high quality content. I'd happily pay $60. Hopefully some of the pirates are just pirating to demo the game, and then buying it afterwards.
That 90% number is a bit discouraging. I do hope this does shake out like Braid and other indie dev games before it, having a large number of sales over time.
But they sure as hell will pirate it because puzzles aren't really worth it.
As it has been stated elsewhere in here, demos tend to hurt, not help sales. And let's not take this game into the f2p territory. This is well beyond the level of a puzzle game you download to your cellphone like Candy Crush.
But they sure as hell will pirate it because puzzles aren't really worth it.
As it has been stated elsewhere in here, demos tend to hurt, not help sales. And let's not take this game into the f2p territory. This is well beyond the level of a puzzle game you download to your cellphone like Candy Crush.
Coffee Dog
Banned
"If"
"If" those pirates convince two of their friends to buy it, he'd be doing even better than your scenario! Wow!
We can kick around fantasy scenarios all day. The only thing we do know is that piracy is a good indicator of interest, and this game is probably doing very well.
A fraction of those downloads will become purchases.
I don't know if they're the most comparable considering. The two that I'm looking at are Shadows of Morder/Mad Max and JC3/JC2. Steamspy doesn't expend that far back but looking at the current sales trends it doesn't seem like those two uncracked games are selling any faster or higher than the two cracked games. I'd be interested to see how that changes when they start going on larger sales (though Mad Max has already be discounted).
Actually we have SoM numbers and Mad Max is tracking considerably behind it.
This makes no sense. Those same people could recommend their friends to buy it regardless of whether they bought it or pirated it. What am I missing?
d00d3n
Member
It is understandable that emotions go high when you release a game that you put your soul into, that you invested your life savings in and that is highly anticipated by the gaming community. That being said, it is sad to see such a seemingly intelligent person like Jonathan Blow participate in this blame game against piracy. Jonathan, please understand the kids who download your game right now are not stealing your money. In fact, they mostly don't have any money, but because they got to play your game anyway, they may very well be paying customers the next time around. So yes, piracy may impact your future, but probably in the opposite way of what you imagine.
Roberto Larcos
Member
I game primarily on GOG these days, but I'd be perfectly happy if DRM free games were given a one year delay as standard, with the Denuvo-fied Steam / Origin / Uplay version being the only way to play until then.
Piracy is an absolute cancer on this industry, but unlike movies, it can be cured. Devs need to get paid. I have no doubt that piracy rates would be lower if this was the case. Going forward, I expect a lot worse. Games never getting DRM-free releases - but if that guarantees devs actually get paid, fuck it - fair enough.
Piracy is an absolute cancer on this industry, but unlike movies, it can be cured. Devs need to get paid. I have no doubt that piracy rates would be lower if this was the case. Going forward, I expect a lot worse. Games never getting DRM-free releases - but if that guarantees devs actually get paid, fuck it - fair enough.
digitalrelic
Banned
Come on now. That's a totally different argument.
It's not a leap to think that some of the people who decide to steal the game to play it would instead buy the game if there was no other option. This argument that you all keep bringing up is asinine.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
I was admittedly being a bit tongue-in-cheek with a "Thanks Obama" style complaint.
However, mid-tier died a slow death after the PS2. It is coming back, especially thanks to games like each of the ones you mentioned.
However, piracy and -- this one is more prevalent, IMO -- the perception that a $40 indie game "isn't worth it" will continue to be an obstacle.
Tesseract
Banned
why would you recommend something you haven't experienced?
IceDoesntHelp
Banned
I'm not part of the problem for once in my life.
If the game were so unpopular people didn't even want to pirate it, the sales numbers would be abysmal
Coffee Dog
Banned
The argument that it's a significant amount of people is the leap.
Jacksinthe
Banned
Fantasy money? Money is very real. Very, very, real.
In case you missed it, the world runs on money. It's like glucose for the body, fuel for your car, oxygen for fire. Money is what allows people to do things like make more games for everyone to enjoy. It puts food on the table, roofs over heads, clothes people. Allows people to buy healthcare.
Pirates pirate because they can, not out of lack of financials.
Edit: With that - I'm out of our conversation. There's only so many ways you can try to change your argument and I have to keep repeating myself to shoot them down one at a time. It's tiring. You're obviously not listening and if you are, you're just trolling. I see no reason to further this. If you have a reply - just reread any of our previous posts because I'm sure a point I made prior will suffice to knock down any further twisting from you.
Acerac
Banned
Nah, PC games shouldn't be released ever.
This thread is insane. I can't tell who is serious.
Maintenance
Member
He does that in every PC thread, can't understand how he is still going.
MikeE21286
Member
Pretty much. A subset of people who wanted to play the game but won't pay $40 are going to pirate it.
I wouldn't. Still missing the point. What are you saying? Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick - spell it out for me.
This is like saying "The game is good, he should be happy" - obviously?
If you think the game is merely a series of puzzle panels you are way wrong. It's structured as a metroidvania, only instead of physical powerups what you gain is knowledge. So if you go to area 5, you might not be able to complete it but you can gain some clue for solving puzzles in area 4, etc.
The Witness is a very very special game.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Source?
Lanrutcon
Member
You're missing what a lot of people in this thread are missing: the original guy would never have bought it. His money is literally unreachable by Mr Blow, piracy or no piracy.
Adding this for all the specials in the thread: Does that justify his actions? Nope.
Beerman462
Member
I'm going to wait until it's free on PS Plus...
/s
Coffee Dog
Banned
If this is the position you're taking, I can't understand how piracy numbers are anything other than irrelevant. Your game will perform well or not based on factors outside of piracy, because you think it isn't something that can be used to convert customers.
digitalrelic
Banned
But he didn't say a significant amount of people. The quote that you mocked literally said "a fraction of people".
Steve Youngblood
Member
Sure. There's definitely a science to coming up with the "right" MSRP. I'm just kind of rejecting the sentiment of "this is more than I want to pay, therefore the price should be lower." Maybe that is true. Maybe the increase in unit sales would have been so high that a lower price was the way to go. But you can't just assume that more unit sales equals more revenue without factoring in what that lower price per unit is going to do to total revenue.
Blow raises a really good point, though: Even if only 10% of pirates would buy the game if piracy wasn't there, that's still A LOT of money. It's not a matter of 1 pirated game = 1 lost sale as much as it is "if 1 pirated game = 0.1 lost sale, that's already a lot".
EventHorizon
Member
I'm not seeing your point. Aren't you admitting in the bolded part that the game isn't worth the price and nobody would buy The Witness if it had a demo because people would find that out?
VariableTerry
Member
I can see his tweet as being just a quick reactionary comment that he really didn't put much thought into. This game has been his life for a long time. I'm sure 6 months down the road he'll have plenty of cash and be knee-deep in his next project.
With the ability to refund, there really isn't any reason to pirate it (that I can think of). I refunded mine on Steam because of the motion sickness issue.
I'm sure I'll pick it up again later, but I also think it's dangerous for devs to focus on the piracy issue and let it affect their future. It's -always- going to be there, and yet many, many devs -- big and small -- are doing just fine, despite pirated games being simple to access.
I do think it has something to do with the price. Even if you don't pirate it, that price point will make a good number of people hesitate. It did with me, but I went ahead and purchased it. Hell, even at $20, there are a lot of people who will say, "Gonna wait for a sale." You might think that's cheap or whatnot, but it doesn't stop it from being a reality.
I'm sure I'll pick it up again later, but I also think it's dangerous for devs to focus on the piracy issue and let it affect their future. It's -always- going to be there, and yet many, many devs -- big and small -- are doing just fine, despite pirated games being simple to access.
I do think it has something to do with the price. Even if you don't pirate it, that price point will make a good number of people hesitate. It did with me, but I went ahead and purchased it. Hell, even at $20, there are a lot of people who will say, "Gonna wait for a sale." You might think that's cheap or whatnot, but it doesn't stop it from being a reality.
Movalpolos
Banned
More likely the pirate will tell their friends (if they like it), "hey this game is great, you can get it for free by going to...."
People who pirate aren't going to tell their friends where to buy it when they just got it for free, lol...
)The two are entirely unrelated though.
Fact is when you release a game you have to consider the market.
Pillars of Eternity and Divinity both released at a high price and probably in the same budget range as the witness.
What's the difference? RPG's have a dedicated fanbase willing to pay top dollars. Puzzle games do not. That has little to do with indie or not.
The sales you have to look at for the Witness sales is talos prinicple. Game in a similar genre, similar price. Talos is doing fine. The witness will too. But i don't really understand the expectation that this was going to light the charts on fire.
Plenty of small budget games are doing very well, despite piracy. If he's unhappy with his sales. That's not the statistic he should be looking at.
Will never overtake? I don't know what your metric is but PC games already have overtaken consoles in terms of revenue for several years now. Just with games that aren't piratable.
You're right. Let's not examine the economic variables that lead to high rates of piracy. Let's just blindly accept that it can never ever happen for a reason that could be studied and potentially reduced in order to maximize profit. Downloading games is disgusting and makes you a heartless monster and we need to have a zero-tolerance policy for it in all cases and not look at it at all for any reason because reasons.
I mean, could you apply this line or reasoning to any other thing that happens in the world literally at all?
I mean, people conduct huge studies and meta-studies to figure out why 486 people were murdered in Chicago in 2015, or why so many insurgents in the Middle East became militant. People attribute murders to poor economic conditions, or to social trends. States and Nations have managed to reduce drug usage by studying why people take drugs and addressing those issues in contrast to shit like "Just say no to drugs they're bad and only bad people do drugs and need to go to jail because reasons and drugs are reasons no excuse they're disgusting" and then throwing them in jail.
So, you're right. Let's just not talk about it. Let's not look at the relevant points of data that could influence the piracy of this product and how we could have maximized profits for Jonathan Blow, or at least reduced the rate at which his product is being pirated. It's disgusting point blank and deserves no form of introspection. Like every other bad thing that has ever happened, it's not important that we understand how or why it happens, merely to revolt at the fact that it does, and flail like children in response to it.
Coffee Dog
Banned
but it isn't 1 pirated game = 0.1 lost sale. We can't ever actually know.
If Blow needs that fractional revenue so badly, why doesn't he work to convert pirates to paying customers? Valve does it and they claim it works great for them.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
More Fun To Compute
Member
It's not a good point. If everyone gave me a dollar I would have a million dollars. All he is saying there. Convincing people to buy things is a serious issue in business and it doesn't come down to wishful thinking.
thekiddfran
Member
How can you prove this?
When people pirate the game they are making the conscious decision to steal a product.
If they wanted to see what the game is like just look up a twitch stream.
You can literally see in this thread who pirates games. To the dirty pirates: Ye are stealing a mans work that he and his team spent 8 years working on. I hope ye are happy. SCUM
Lanrutcon
Member
Dude seems incredibly passionate about game development, both as a financial endeavor and as a skill to improve and hone. I hope he does well enough to continue contributing to the industry.
EventHorizon
Member
That goes to show that the game isn't well marketed because I had no idea it was like that. FYI, to me that setup sound incredibly frustrating and makes me even less likely to ever buy the game. No I'm not pirating it either. I just will probably never play it.
Roberto Larcos
Member
It's always been defended, lauded even. I'd suggest you'd stay away from Reddit if you want to keep an anti-piracy stance.
Mid-tier console games and mid-tier PC games are very seperate things in terms of audiences and genres. They never died on PC and are as healthy as they've ever been recently. Not going to say they're unaffected by by any of this but selling high quantities of a game like Europa Universalis or XCOM, or Age of Wonders 3 or ArmA 3 for $30+ dollars pretty much only floats on PC due to the audience there. Other high priced indie games like SOMA also sold best on PC. That perception doesn't really extend far beyond The Witness and it's genre.
- Status