Support NeoGAF

[Jacksinthe]

The indie scene is huge, yes, but a $40 game is most definitely unusual. If AAA games only cost $20 more, yes, most consumers are going to go for that widely appealing product over the low budget puzzler (a rather uncommon type of game, especially for that price point). Is that their fault, for choosing the safety net over the product that carries more risk? You could say so. But the truth is that people will choose it.

Witness is not low budget. How could anyone think that?

Again, the pricing argument is BS. Seriously. No AAA game that is regularly priced at 60 launches at 20, sorry. They don't. They launch at 60. They may go on sale months after at 20 but not at launch.

If i feel a game is out of my price point for what it offers - i don't buy it. I also don't pirate it. It's a silly excuse and I SMH every time someone brings it up in regards to piracy. It can be priced at 4000 and that's still not an excuse to pirate it.

Anything else?

Any new game that gets released is going to be "top of the pirate charts" the week it comes out. That line means nothing to me. Everyone who pirates would not have necessarily bought it anyway. Everyone who pirates it isn't even necessarily PLAYING it. The topic of the thread could be "The Witness only sells 30k on Steam" and my point would be the same. When developing and funding a game you have to consider how many sales you're going to get back. I think Blow overestimated things a bit. Puzzle games don't exactly light the sales chart on fire, full price or not.

Bullshit.

Definitely not "any new game". Plenty of games get released and nobody knows about it. It's on top of the charts because people know who Blow is. They know all about the game. They don't want to buy the game so they just pirate it, regardless.

Nobody cares if pirated games aren't played, that point of yours is moot.

Return on investment is definitely considered. The argument that piracy does not equate to lost sales is anecdotal. I'm quite sure there are pirates that can literally afford to buy every damn game on Steam but still pirate anyhow.

You can overestimate your returns but piracy absolutely factors into that equation when its pirated to hell and back.

 

[ElCidTmax]

It would have made sense to delay the PC release. Take advantage of anypositive press that the PS4 version receives, then release on PC once the PS4 sales taper a bit (a month or so).

I do think the $40 price point raises some eyebrows. I tend to buy indie games on impulse if they are $15-20, even games I don't have time to play. But $40 puts it in a different category. I can see some people resorting to piracy as the game is pretty expensive for what on a surface level looks like it could be on iPad for $5 (not saying that is accurate at all, but screenshots don't really communicate that the gameplay is about aha! moments).

 

[EventHorizon]

He made an incrdible game that can last anywhere from 60-80 hours that got some of the highest review scores in recent memory. It's well worth $40, there's an argument to be made that it could have been $60. You're attitude that no indie studio should price their game more expensive is harmful to the industry really, the game cost 5 million dollars to make, looks visually beautiful and was a labour of love from one individual and his small team but you think he should charge $20 because "that's what indie games cost"? Honestly, here he is the victim of piracy, he shouldn't be blamed because people are basically stealing his game. Smh.

40 dollars is perfect for this game...so many cheap people out there that want a quality experience for free...it's disgusting. Shame.

The problem is that the game is in a niche genre. The original Portal was made by the already well known and respected Valle, and only cost $20. It doesn't matter how much content The Witness has, people don't know if they'll like it and aren't willing to spend $40 to find out. The game should have been scaled back so that it could have sold for $20 and made a profit. Then once the game had built up an audience of people who liked it, a bigger sequel could have been made that sold for more.

In short, if you are going to do something out of the mainstream for your game, you should either have a huge marketing budget to sell the concept or offer an inexpensive way for people to try it out.

 

[galyonkin]

SteamSpy shows sales somewhere in the 23k+ range last time I checked. And who knows if all of these were bought from the Steam store.

It's too early, wait two more days please

 

[dLMN8R]

why do people constantly equate explaining why a game was pirated to defending said piracy

Because those "explanations" are fucking bullshit. That's my entire point.

Every time someone comes up with an "explanation" for piracy, and a developer "fixes" that "explanation", there's yet another bullshit excuse that comes out of the woodwork instead.

 

[johntown]

Is 200K sales good? Probably. But 350K sales would be even better.

I can't stand it when gamers act like they deserve a free sample of something to the point where they are justifying privacy. And I really can't stand it when pirates think they can "bully crowd-source" the definition of a successful game.


FUCK PIRATES. You are the problem.

You can't count pirates as potential sales.

 

[Alienous]

This thread has taught me that the best way to make money is to delay or outright cancel a highly lucrative version of a game. I'm sure you're all fantastic businessmen.

Or release with DRM on all versions of the game, particularly when the asking price of a game is non-trivial.

That or take risks regarding your financial future that could very reasonably have a negative impact on your company and its ability to make games in the future.

 

[Whompa02]

Not to defend the pirates, but hopefully Blow learns a lesson about spending 8 years and your entire net worth on a game with seemingly niche appeal. I think he let the size and scope of the game get away from him.

What? People should be allowed to do whatever they want, and if they make a work of art, they should be rewarded justly. The game is fantastic and people are getting a free ride. There's no working around that.

It's totally unfair to restrict people, forcing them to bend to corporate norms and have their scope limited by a "successful business strategy" and "working budget." He should be able to do what he wants, and not pay an unfair price for something that cost him so much to do...it should pay off.

There's something inherently wrong with distribution right now. There needs to be better measures to stopping the unfair treatment of creators. That's it.

 

[GlamFM]

compared to AAA, $60 titles the Witness is incredibly low budget. Those games cost many many millions to make.

As did the Witness. Not as much as COD, but still a nice chunk.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Witness is not low budget. How could anyone think that?

Again, the pricing argument is BS. Seriously. No AAA game that is regularly priced at 60 launches at 20, sorry. They don't. They launch at 60. They may go on sale months after at 20 but not at launch.

If i feel a game is out of my price point for what it offers - i don't buy it. I also don't pirate it. It's a silly excuse and I SMH every time someone brings it up in regards to piracy. It can be priced at 4000 and that's still not an excuse to pirate it.

Anything else?

like I just said

compared to AAA, $60 titles the Witness is incredibly low budget. Those games cost many many millions to make.

 

[YianGaruga]

It's too early, wait two more days please

You should really stop showing sales data before 1 week after release

 

[jbartee]

Why should I care if he spent 8 years making the game?

The problem here is that, even with the amazing reviews it got, the creator has not convinced enough of us to buy his game for $40. That's on him, not us or the pirates.

he's convinced more than enough people to buy his game

and obviously you don't have to care, it seems you're in good company actually. but i care that he spent 8 years making something because i want a games industry where individual authors (not giant teams) can afford ambition. I want them to continue pushing themselves to create difficult, challenging things. i think that's worth $40. i find it depressing that so many people think it isn't

 

[Netherscourge]

PC gaming is doing better than it has in years, factually.

Yea, for Free 2 Play games with micros.

 

[Lingitiz]

It would have made sense to delay the PC release. Take advantage of anypositive press that the PS4 version receives, then release on PC once the PS4 sales taper a bit (a month or so).

I do think the $40 price point raises some eyebrows. I tend to buy indie games on impulse if they are $15-20, even games I don't have time to play. But $40 puts it in a different category. I can see some people resorting to piracy as the game is pretty expensive for what on a surface level looks like it could be on iPad for $5 (not saying that is accurate at all, but screenshots don't really communicate that the gameplay is about aha! moments).

All this does is hurt the PC version. Again, I'm curious to see sales numbers for games like Galak-Z that did this.

Also, do people not understand that Steam is the primary market for PC games? Even with piracy it is probably still the leading platform and the one most devs prefer to launch on first.

 

[Nheco]

Stopped reading at "u mad", sorry. I just don't expect a quality post to follow that.

you very edgy, sir. Congrats.

 

[Bankastuba]

stop releasing games for the PC

Lol

 

[BoboBrazil]

If you don't want your game pirated don't release on PC. It happens to every game. His is no different.

 

[Zornack]

No one could possibly know the answer to that question. However, I would have to say that most if not all the people who pirated the game would not buy it if it was not available for free.

I don't see how you can make this argument. The game being available for free on day one completely changes the purchasing dynamic.

Also, someone for whom $40 is way too steep might have picked it up when it was $10 in a future sale. Now that sale is completely lost.

 

[synce]

I've never even heard of this game. They should get better marketing if they want people to buy it. Piracy is not the problem

 

[Coffee Dog]

Yea, for Free 2 Play games with micros.

Did undertale stop existing? Good games sell.

 

[bwakh]

Worth isn't universal.

Yes and to each his own. But saying a price is too much for an indie game or a game by a particular developer is silly. The game is getting critical praise and the concept is unique/fresh. It even has quite a lot of content. No reason why anyone who is even somewhat interested in the game should be hesitant to buy it at $40 in this day.

It's the same reason why people complain about even paying $1 for an app on their cellphone. Implied worth based solely on what its on or whatever arbitrary label is applied to it (read: indie games can't be more than $20 ever because it's an indie game).

Playing Journey for $10 on the PS3 felt like a steal to me. Gave me more than many more expensive games. I know everybody sees different value in the stuff they buy but saying a 'type' of game doesn't deserve a price point or a developer can't ask for more than how much his previous game costs I can't understand.

 

[digitalrelic]

Because those "explanations" are fucking bullshit. That's my entire point.

Every time someone comes up with an "explanation" for piracy, and a developer "fixes" that "explanation", there's yet another bullshit excuse that comes out of the woodwork instead.

Exactly. Well said.

 

[Shantom]

Or release with DRM on all versions of the game, particularly when the asking price of a game is non-trivial.

That or take risks regarding your financial future that could very reasonably have a negative impact on your company and its ability to make games in the future.

Do you have evidence that DRM-free games sell less than games that are hard to crack?

 

[Sylas]

Because those "explanations" are fucking bullshit. That's my entire point.

Every time someone comes up with an "explanation" for piracy, and a developer "fixes" that "explanation", there's yet another bullshit excuse that comes out of the woodwork instead.

You know, I agree. Those explanations you put forth? Those are bullshit. They don't apply to The Witness. People who pirate The Witness to "stick it to the man" are assholes. People who pirate, while having the means to buy the game, are assholes. People who pirate, without just waiting to buy the game when it's a price they agree with, are assholes.

But, once again, we don't have any way to know what country the game is being pirated in. Are there some in the US? Sure! But evidence and studies show that the majority of pirated software goes to Russia and China--where people don't have a lot of expendable income for things like games, or literally can't buy the game, but have ready access to computers that can play those games!

Some people want to try a game out before they buy it and don't want to risk their Steam account getting refunds locked. It's not a black and white situation of, "Eh, fuck this person I'm gonna pirate the game."

 

[Snkfanatic]

you very edgy, sir. Congrats.

You said u mad and called someone else edgy....

I have seen it all now

 

[Movalpolos]

honestly not to sound aggressive but i was merely stating a fact that there are benefits to having a game on steam. that includes community (content, friends/list), having the game forever in an official format and capacity with other games, ultimately supporting the developer of a game you enjoy, etc.

do all pirates buy a game when it's on sale after pirating it? no. are all pirated copies a lost sale? no. do some pirates purchase a game legally (through steam in this case) when it's on sale, even after pirating it before in the past? yes. you can look at the pure numbers behind how many copies were pirated and how many copies were sold during a sale and reasonably come to that conclusion.


no, it's dead. music is dead. movies are dead. ebooks are dead.

Thanks. You are making a fair assessment. Though we don't have any real hard data that tells us what portion of the pirate player base becomes a buyer player base.

 

[KarmaCow]

like I just said

compared to AAA, $60 titles the Witness is incredibly low budget. Those games cost many many millions to make.

I really don't think most people are weighing (or even know) the size of a game's budget or development staff when they're deciding to buy a game.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

What? People should be allowed to do whatever they want, and if they make a work of art, they should be rewarded justly. The game is fantastic and people are getting a free ride. There's no working around that.

It's totally unfair to restrict people, forcing them to bend to corporate norms and have their scope limited by a "successful business strategy" and "working budget." He should be able to do what he wants, and not pay an unfair price for something that cost him so much to do...it should pay off.

There's something inherently wrong with distribution right now. There needs to be better measures to stopping the unfair treatment of creators. That's it.

Is this a joke post?

 

[Beast780]

After playing this game for 5 hours, $40 is the perfect price point for this game. A lot of work went into making this game.

 

[VivaciousSoul]

It's stealing. Regardless if you decide to play the game or not.

There is no decide to play the game or maybe not in this situation. That the game was not played is absolute. I think that it's black and white with a physical object but less so with data. I think that the wrong that the author is concerned about is lost sales, the number of downloads on a site being the catalyst for his tweet. A certain percentage of those downloads less than 100% maybe much less than 100% are lost sales including some where someone downloaded and just forgot about it or downloaded and played for 5 minutes and then was on to the next one. I have trouble keeping up with all legitimately bought games. I can't imagine what it's like to have access to everything independent of cost concern.

 

[GDJustin]

This Witness is a gigantic and almost impossibly intricate game.

Moreso than almost any other video game, you can see and feel where those eight years were spent, and it's probably the only game where it wasn't spent on Uncharted or Tomb Raider-esque set-piece moments. Some of the puzzles and environmental details are so complex I have a hard time even wrapping my head around how they were planned and created.

$40 is a steal.

 

[Jacksinthe]

like I just said

compared to AAA, $60 titles the Witness is incredibly low budget. Those games cost many many millions to make.

So did Witness.

Blow isn't a one-man band.

 

[Ducktail]

Some of these people could eventually buy the game.

I'm holding on my purchase because I have way too many games on my backlog and I found the price a bit too steep.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Is this some sort of price-shaming that's going on in this thread? ffs. We-re talking about a 60-hour long game with high production values that was 8 years in the making and you think it's his fault people are playing the game illegitimately for pricing it at $40?

smh.

Since when do length and budget determine price? It's about what the customer sees as value for their money. He could make a 60 hour crossword puzzle game that I wouldn't pay even $5 for.

 

[johntown]

I don't see how you can make this argument. The game being available for free on day one completely changes the purchasing dynamic.

Also, someone for whom $40 is way too steep might have picked it up when it was $10 in a future sale. Now that sale is completely lost.

The majority of people who pirate are not potential customers.

 

[Vital Tundra]

Jesus this thread is something else. It sucks people are prating his game, and it sucks people can't get over the fact that independent games are becoming more expensive.

 

[daveo42]

40 dollars was definitely a bit too steep of a price when you consider how the demand for pure puzzle games just doesn't seem to be there really. Because the witness is exactly that, it's a pure puzzle game.

That's not to say the game isn't incredible, there are tons of total head scratchers, and you will obsess over puzzles you can't solve and some of them are insanely well put together.

But the game has no overarching narrative really.

The game has lots of dead end puzzles that are just kind of there and don't seem to do anything in the world besides exist to be solved and then forgotten as they don't tie into anything.

And most importantly (this isn't necessarily a bad thing) most of the rewards for solving a puzzle in the game are either more puzzles or just the satisfaction of solving a puzzle.

Occasionally you unlock a shortcut but that's the most tangible reward you get.

You don't get shiny new equipment, you don't get cool dialogue or story as a reward, you're not rewarded with some visual spectacle or changing scenery, you don't really even unlock new areas (just more progress in the current one) as you can go almost anywhere at any time.

Because of those things it really does feel like a 40 dollar puzzle book, and that's something I feel most people other than puzzle game aficionados aren't exactly willing to drop 40 dollars on no matter how excellently designed it is.

On top of that the talos principle (another 40 dollar puzzle game) has been out for a little over a year and has sold about 450k copies on steam. Which is what i'm guessing the witness is gonna hit after a year with a few sales and stuff.

Basically if you ask me, the witness is doing exactly as well as anyone should have expected it to do regardless of pirates or not.

There was a segment on this week's GT Time that kind of tackles this issue with most modern games. There's always a carrot on a stick, or a level, or bar to fill up or whatever that tries to keep the player's attention and make the game seem more fun than it actually is. Almost every modern game has some sort of "progress" because rewards release dopamine into the brain, make us feel good about whatever happened even if that progress is trivial or inconsequential.

Yes, this is a massive amount of puzzles and the only real thing to look forward to after completing a puzzle is another puzzle. The way though, in which you get that sense of accomplishment without the constant new item/level/macguffin is quite frankly, refreshing in terms of gameplay. Figuring out how something works and why and learning a system should be a reward in and of it self and expecting a tangible reward for doing something shouldn't be a common practice in any facet of your life. It just creates and cultivates a false sense of fun and entitlement that shouldn't and really isn't there to begin with.

To each his own on the subjectivity of price though.

 

[KHlover]

Pirates gonna pirate, that happens with every game on PC. If his game doesn't sell something else is wrong.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Because those "explanations" are fucking bullshit. That's my entire point.

Every time someone comes up with an "explanation" for piracy, and a developer "fixes" that "explanation", there's yet another bullshit excuse that comes out of the woodwork instead.

Jesus christ.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if you want to find ways to stop piracy, crying about it and cartoonishly representing a potential market as just horrible horrible people that hate you and want your game to fail and will never change isn't how you do it.

You investigate why that something happens, and work to change in order to better serve that market. You don't do the same thing over and over.

 

[Oreoleo]

What? People should be allowed to do whatever they want, and if they make a work of art, they should be rewarded justly. The game is fantastic and people are getting a free ride. There's no working around that.

It's totally unfair to restrict people, forcing them to bend to corporate norms and have their scope limited by a "successful business strategy" and "working budget." He should be able to do what he wants, and not pay an unfair price for something that cost him so much to do...it should pay off.

There's something inherently wrong with distribution right now. There needs to be better measures to stopping the unfair treatment of creators. That's it.

I definitely admire Blow for having a vision and making the game he wants to make.

But turning around and complaining about lack of sales/not recuperating losses is kind of antithetical to that. There's a reason for the "starving artist" cliche. You either make art or you make money, it's rare that you get both.

 

[Gbraga]

The witness is not low budget. Blow blew all his money on it and than some.

This assumption that Indie means cheap and low budget needs to stop.

Indie just means it was independently funded.

The Wtiness is absolutely low budget compared to any modern AAA game.

If that's a good or bad thing, depends on who you ask. As someone who still thinks most AAA games are crap, I don't see it as a negative, but it IS low budget. The fact that he blew all of his money means nothing out of context. All of his money still isn't the budget of many AAA games.

 

[Nordicus]

This is why mid-tier games died. Thanks PC gamers...

this is why pc gamings dead.

And suddenly Paradox Interactive and Devolver Digital offices burst into flames

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Not sure why this game took so long. Kinda sad that he is so worried about the financial aspect of it but it doesn't seem that worth interrupting my backlog for at that price.

 

[Sheroking]

I've never even heard of this game. They should get better marketing if they want people to buy it. Piracy is not the problem

This game is being widely pirated specifically because it is widely known and anticipated among gamers.

 

[Coffee Dog]

The majority of people who pirate are not potential customers.

You gonna tell that to Valve (who have gone on record saying that they work hard to convert pirates to sales), or people who actively put their products in the hands of the community like the hotline miami devs?

 

[Nheco]

You said u mad and called someone else edgy....

I have seen it all now

did you read why I did it?

He simply called my reasoning stupid without any argumentation on their part. Well, whatever, I'm out. I was just trying to add something to the topic.

 

[digitalrelic]

You know, I agree. Those explanations you put forth? Those are bullshit. They don't apply to The Witness. People who pirate The Witness to "stick it to the man" are assholes. People who pirate, while having the means to buy the game, are assholes. People who pirate, without just waiting to buy the game when it's a price they agree with, are assholes.

But, once again, we don't have any way to know what country the game is being pirated in. Are there some in the US? Sure! But evidence and studies show that the majority of pirated software goes to Russia and China--where people don't have a lot of expendable income for things like games, or literally can't buy the game, but have ready access to computers that can play those games!

Some people want to try a game out before they buy it and don't want to risk their Steam account getting refunds locked. It's not a black and white situation of, "Eh, fuck this person I'm gonna pirate the game."

If people don't have expendable income for things like games, the answer is simple: Don't buy them. Not being able to afford a game is not an excuse to steal it.

And the whole "I don't want to risk my Steam Account getting locked" thing is just another lame excuse. How many games are we talking about being refunded here? If you're using the Steam Refund process honestly, you won't have to worry about getting locked out of it.

 

[Alienous]

Do you have evidence that DRM-free games sell less than games that are hard to crack?

No?

 

[LukasTaves]

I know the feeling of having invested too much and the payoff not being the expected, but I think the game will make money eventually, even Braid was kind of a slow burner, and it seemed way more hyped prior release than The Witness.

The game is being very praised, and he still have plenty of options to try to increase volume sales.

 

[Movalpolos]

I've never even heard of this game. They should get better marketing if they want people to buy it. Piracy is not the problem

Thanks for your shitty post. The game is sitting in the top of Steam sales, but since you have never heard of it, it doesn't exist!

Quality shit-posting, really.