Support NeoGAF

[dLMN8R]

I beat Ori maybe 6 months ago, but it resonated with me stronger than any other game this year. I can't hear its music or see a screenshot of it without immediately wanting to play through it again. I could make threads devoted to babbling about its incredible sound track, or its unbelievable art direction, or its opening cutscene, or other characteristics. But I think what sticks out the most to me are how perfect its boss fights are.


What are the characteristics of a great boss fight? In my opinion:

• A great boss fight must earn its existence. The game cannot just throw a boss fight in unexpectedly and expect you to care. The game should be building toward it the entire time.
• It should not just force you to use everything you've learned leading up to it, but the game must effectively teach you those things ahead of time. A boss fight can't succeed if the game didn't adequately teach you how to do the things it requires you to do.
• It should be more difficult than what came before, but not unfair and frustrating.
• To make it less frustrating, you should be able to retry instantly if you fail. Punishing load times are bad, but forcing you to watch a cutscene again and/or play through part of the game beforehand is the worst
• There could be a central puzzle you need to solve, but a bad puzzle is far worse than no puzzle
• Along those same lines, it shouldn't take forever to finish. My favorite boss fights can be completed fairly quickly once you master them and know what you're doing
• A masterful boss fight escalates the drama. Not just in the size and scope of the things you're doing, but why you're doing them. Backed with a swelling sound track, and art unlike anything you've seen before - hopefully within that game, but within any other game if possible
• There needs to be a sense of catharsis once it's done. And to me, the simple feeling of "whew I'm glad that's over" isn't enough. Beating the boss should mean something and change things in the wider world of the game.

What many games miss, to their detriment, is that a boss fight does not need to be a specific creature or person you defeat. That's usually how it goes, and that's fine, but so many games shoehorn in a poorly-concepted over-powered thing where it doesn't fit. Bullet sponges rarely make for a good boss, especially if they look and act like any ordinary human enemy.

Ori's boss fights aren't the creatures you fight. But the escape sequences. And I can't think of many games in years which have accomplished all of the above (and then some) except Ori and the Blind Forest. It's is a platformer at heart, so of course its boss fights are platforming sequences.


I captured footage of the first boss fight in the game (at 30fps, wish I could have recorded it at 60fps the game runs at). It took me maybe 30 minutes to beat my first time, and this footage shows my final success after a whole lot of prior failure. I died a helluva lot, but I never got frustrated. And the sense of catharsis when finally beating it was one of my favorite moments in gaming in years - not just because of the immediately following cutscene, but because of what happens after.

SPOILERS FOR THAT FIRST ESCAPE SEQUENCE
(This is around 3 hours into a ~9 hour game)

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2PBPn1ZfL8

Spoiler

The presence of the Ginso tree fills most of three hours leading up to this point. It's the central focus, an overbearing presence even from the first few minutes. You finally get to it.

You climb it for 10-15 minutes carefully working your way to the top. You learn a new ability along the way, and the game teaches you how to use it well. The music builds and builds.

You complete what you set out to do from the very beginning.

And then it all goes to hell.

You die over and over again trying to reach the top. Timing each jump with perfection. Mastering everything the game trained you to do from the beginning.

But you get stuck part of the way up. You've hit a wall. What am I missing? How is this possible?

Soon you figure it out - your boost power doesn't just work on enemy projectiles, but it works on the enemies themselves! You get a little further.

You did it!

HOLY SHIT WHAT IS THAT

You're attacked. And fall all the way back down....

....and down....and down....


....to the most beautiful, peaceful, serene landscape the game's presented you with so far. The music...and....blue? Blue water? Blue water! Finishing the Ginso tree has cleansed the previously poisonous water! Everything's changed from here on...

The first time I played the game, I thought it must have peaked at the superb opening sequence. I'm so glad I was wrong.

 

[Theorry]

Loading times and cutscenes are the worst indeed. Just noticed that again when playing Thief.
Loading times are quite bad and before a escape section there is also a cutscene. Not big deal but still a little cutscene. Messed it up a couple of times because i didnt used a control. Fine can happen. But was already getting frustrated after 2 attempts.
"Yeah i know i messed up', but lets go!"

 

[Regiruler]

Ori's actual bosses are terrible.

 

[Zach]

Will check this thread out after I beat Ori tonight or tomorrow.

 

[bumpkin]

Funny, I actually found that specific escape sequence to be a frustrating mess (the only one I dislike). Ori's tendency to have incredibly busy art didn't help. At least they were still way better and more enjoyable than the enemy boss fights, which were consistently weak.

Seconded. That first escape was the hardest in the game and it was rage inducing. Even the final one was easier, at least that had some satisfying tension. Not the bullshit in the tree escape.

 

[Maedhros]

Ori's worst part is the escape parts being the boss.

Sorry, but I really love boss fights in my 2D games. So I won't agree with you about these being good.

 

[Primethius]

The lack of actual bosses and the overly busy escape sections were, along with the trial and error-esque gameplay, were my least favorite parts of the game.

 

[Ricerocket]

I think it's called an autoscroller segment? I actually didn't like it, some say it's hard but it's mostly easy as fuck save for some trial and error moments (or my lack of skill) of missing some jumps.

 

[loaf of bread]

The escape sequences were fucking awful

 

[silva1991]

I loved those sequences in the game, but I wouldn't call em boss fights.

it's no different from Uncharted's run away/follow someone on a horse or a motorcycle sequences .

 

[Kolx]

I actually liked this escape sequence a lot. The soundtrack with the art and the tension was just perfect and made it one of my favorite moments in the game.

 

[TSM]

My only problems with the game were the terrible story and autoscrolling escape sequences. They weren't fun and then the dev decided to just cut you off from that portion of the game whether you 100% the area or not.

 

[Nbz]

The escape sequences in Ori are my favourite moments in video games this whole year. As someone who loves platforming, I would much rather have a challenge associated with those skills than fighting an enemy

 

[Goreomedy]

Could not disagree more. The flight sections of Rayman games have a natural path and musicality to them. Ori's escape sequences force you to learn a pattern that often punishes fluid mechanics and betrays timing expectation to the point of frustration. And it doesn't help when the performance of the Xbox one chugs because of how taxing it all is.

The rest of the game is great.

 

[Teppic]

The game had boss fights?

I did like the escape sequences. Like something out of Rayman Origins/Legends. I wouldn't call them boss fights though.

 

[Chuckwagon]

I'm on the pro escape sequence team. Loved them.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

The last escape sequence was infuriating. I was very disappointed with most of Ori.

I'll substantiate later, maybe.

 

[Alienfan]

Man these escape sequences seem really divisive.

 

[antitrop]

I'm waiting patiently for the day something tops Senator Armstrong.

 

[RoKKeR]

Love the escape sequences, very unique and hugely rewarding. Ginso Tree was maybe too large of a difficulty spike, but it was pretty damn cathartic to beat that sequence.

 

[Tenebrous]

Man these escape sequences seem really divisive.

You're telling me. I absolutely loved them.

 

[truestatic]

Seconded. That first escape was the hardest in the game and it was rage inducing. Even the final one was easier, at least that had some satisfying tension. Not the bullshit in the tree escape.

Interesting. After the first escape sequence ended, I kept hoping that anything in the game would equal it. For me, it was definitely the pinnacle of the game. The second and third sequences relative ease made them disappointments, in comparison, rather than reliefs.

Artistically, atmospherically, and gameplaywise, I think that first escape sequence was as good as it gets for Ori. I liked the rest of the game a lot, but I absolutely loved that 1-2 minute segment.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Honestly, the real problem is probably the save system. Like, save anywhere is great and all, but arbitrarily taking it away during scripted sequences feels so cheap. It isn't worth the trade-off. It's either "save everywhere" or not, not "save kinda when we feel like it". I suppose a game's story might be able to support a more flakey system, but this game didn't even really try.

 

[dLMN8R]

Eh, I guess I kinda expected this reaction.

Oh well, I still love them.

Honestly, the real problem is probably the save system. Like, save anywhere is great and all, but arbitrarily taking it away during scripted sequences feels so cheap. It isn't worth the trade-off. It's either "save everywhere" or not, not "save kinda when we feel like it".

This was kind of my point though. Once you know how to complete the Ginso tree escape, it takes like 90 seconds to do it. I don't think allowing a save point there would improve it.

(and as a software developer, a save point during this sequence would be a pain in the ass to get right)

 

[puebla]

Getting through the Ginso Tree gave me one of the biggest adrenaline rushes I've ever had in gaming. Ori as a whole is a masterpiece.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Eh, I guess I kinda expected this reaction.

Oh well, I still love them.



This was kind of my point though. Once you know how to complete the Ginso tree escape, it takes like 90 seconds to do it. I don't think allowing a save point there would improve it.

(and as a software developer, a save point during this sequence would be a pain in the ass to get right)

As a programmer, I too have a lot of sympathy for the "we took the best worst option because we were out of money", but as a player damn it they should've done better.

Ori is the sort of game where I want to be hyper-critical of it because it's almost there for me. Despite knowing better, the armchair designer in me starts firing up. Also, I played it for the first time last week, so it's all still relatively fresh and I'm still feeling the burn of being locked out of my save point with only two collectibles left to find (both of which must have been in an area that was locked off to me, The Forlorn Ruins).

 

[PetulantChild]

I loved the escape sequences because normally boss fights in Metroidvanias just boil down to spamming missles over and over again until the thing falls down.

 

[Maedhros]

I loved the escape sequences because normally boss fights in Metroidvanias just boil down to spamming missles over and over again until the thing falls down.

Are you talking about Super Metroid?

I can't even remember a fight in my favorite games that boils down to what you said.

Hell, Order of Ecclesia, one of my favorite games, have some of the best boss ever and it's not like this at all.

 

[ArjanN]

Honestly, the real problem is probably the save system. Like, save anywhere is great and all, but arbitrarily taking it away during scripted sequences feels so cheap. It isn't worth the trade-off. It's either "save everywhere" or not, not "save kinda when we feel like it". I suppose a game's story might be able to support a more flakey system, but this game didn't even really try.

I dunno, It didn't feel cheap to me, without that there would basically be no difficulty at all to those platforming gauntlets. And honestly, even without saving they're not terribly hard.

 

[PetulantChild]

Are you talking about Super Metroid?

Partially, I should have probably specified that they end up like that in my experience, it may just be that I'm absolutely terrible at Metroid boss battles through I remember a similar kind of experience with Shadow Complex as well. Not really saying those kind of battles are bad, just that I personally prefer the escape sequences to a traditional boss. If they were to put in a boss battle in Definitive Edition that took advantage of the projectile dash I wouldn't exactly be complaining.

 

[The Technomancer]

I want to love this game

I really do

But its sound design drives me nuts. Specifically how grating and harsh the sparking attacks sound. It would be one thing if that was like, thematic, and the game was encouraging you to be nonviolent, but no its definitely the core mechanic and its just making it hard for me to keep playing because of how much I hate the wonderful music and background sound getting interrupted with "FWUUUUSH FWAP ZAP" whenever I have to attack something

 

[Nocturnowl]

Loved the Ginso Tree escape, aced that one first time but man the ruins was the one that kept getting me so I can understand people's frustration with these. Final one was a bit iffy as well.
I suppose it doesn't help that other rather recent platformers like both modern Rayman and DKC entries do the "stage falling to pieces platforming clusterfuck" with more clarity and quality in my mind.

Hell, Order of Ecclesia, one of my favorite games, have some of the best boss ever and it's not like this at all.

Such a killer boss lineup in there.

 

[charlequin]

I'm still feeling the burn of being locked out of my save point with only two collectibles left to find (both of which must have been in an area that was locked off to me, The Forlorn Ruins).

I love this game and I think the escape sequences are really great, but having collectibles be missable because they're in time-limited areas was a godawful choice. This type of game is all about giving people the opportunity to backtrack and hunt around for powerups at their own pace. Making the escape sequences the barrier to completion is going to make people like them much, much less than they might otherwise.

 

[PanicFreak]

Partially, I should have probably specified that they end up like that in my experience, it may just be that I'm absolutely terrible at Metroid boss battles through I remember a similar kind of experience with Shadow Complex as well. Not really saying those kind of battles are bad, just that I personally prefer the escape sequences to a traditional boss. If they were to put in a boss battle in Definitive Edition that took advantage of the projectile dash I wouldn't exactly be complaining.

I think there are strengths to each approach. It really worked for Ori because the game controls so well.

 

[Ol No Bones]

I love this game start to finish. The escape sequences are difficult but not infuriating. I can't wait for the definitive edition.

 

[Ol No Bones]

I love this game and I think the escape sequences are really great, but having collectibles be missable because they're in time-limited areas was a godawful choice. This type of game is all about giving people the opportunity to backtrack and hunt around for powerups at their own pace. Making the escape sequences the barrier to completion is going to make people like them much, much less than they might otherwise.

getting all the collectibles in the escape sequences is half the fun. It adds a new layer of difficulty.

 

[Maedhros]

getting all the collectibles in the escape sequences is half the fun. It adds a new layer of difficulty.

Bullshit.

Some of them aren't on the escape sequences. And if you miss them, you need to restart the entire game.

It's being corrected in the Definitive version for a reason.

 

[dLMN8R]

I thought there weren't any collectables that actually counted toward the 100% in the locked-out segments?

 

[ArjanN]

I want to love this game

I really do

But its sound design drives me nuts. Specifically how grating and harsh the sparking attacks sound. It would be one thing if that was like, thematic, and the game was encouraging you to be nonviolent, but no its definitely the core mechanic and its just making it hard for me to keep playing because of how much I hate the wonderful music and background sound getting interrupted with "FWUUUUSH FWAP ZAP" whenever I have to attack something

I don't remember the sound being like that at all, might just be a taste thing though.

To be fair once you get the 'bash' ability enemies and projectiles really just become springboards and you barely have to fight anything.

I thought there weren't any collectables that actually counted toward the 100% in the locked-out segments?

No there were some. Not a lot, but there's a few and they're hidden well enough that you're almost certainly going to miss some unless you're sitting there with a guide.

 

[Red Hood]

Eh, no. I couldn't disagree more. The whole escape sequences were relatively terrible. If anything, I'd say it's the only flaw of Ori. The trial and error are atrociously misplaced because one of the reasons why Ori is so amazing is because the game itself is hard, but fair. It's challenging. There's nothing "fair" or challenging about trial and errors. Also, because of those shitty escape sequences, you get locked out of completion. You can't return to several places, so if you've missed something along the way and you were aiming for a 100% completion rate, have fun starting over.

 

[Green Wiggly]

They were OK. I raged at some parts for sure, but was able to get through just under the amount of tries it would have taken to want to put the game down. The sequences felt epic, but having so much going on onscreen made it hard at times to figure out where to go when you have maybe a second to figure it out. My biggest problem was how easy it was to send poor Ori plummeting to his death by accidently pressing down during the gliding sections.

 

[Zach]

Aaand just beat it. Great game.

Anyway, the boss/chase sequences were frustrating due to the busy -- albeit lovely -- art style and occasionally disorienting shaky cam. I still enjoyed them; I just wish I could've cleared them a bit quicker.

 

[Silvawuff]

Hey OP, interesting essay on bosses and how they relate to good game play. I think "challenge" or "milestone" might be a better term just for reasons of semantics. I finished Ori last month and I have to say that Ginso sequence was really frustrating for me at first. I felt like the controls kept flubbing on me and it was more of a technical thing than a "git gud" kind of thing.I actually got frustrated enough that I needed to turn the game off and do something else. I came back a few hours later and beat it in two tries. It was a relief and felt really good, which is a feeling I've haven't felt playing a game in a long time.

That said, Ori really would have brought it over the top if it mixed in some tangible non-escape bosses, and also didn't lock itself up after hitting a certain point. It's really bad exploring an area, getting stuck in an escape sequence, then you can't go back (most of you who played this game will know where).

Outside of that it's a solid game. I really can't wait to see what Moon Studio cooks up next.

 

[clem84]

Sweet lord this is one gorgeous game.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

The escape sequences lose their purpose if you're constantly dying and restarting. It just feels disjointed after a while. I found them frustrating

 

[TSM]

The escape sequences lose their purpose if you're constantly dying and restarting. It just feels disjointed after a while. I found them frustrating

It's basically "Play this exactly the way we intend you to play it, and oh, by the way, there's an instant death timer if you fall behind at all."

 

[charlequin]

getting all the collectibles in the escape sequences is half the fun. It adds a new layer of difficulty.

The way to do this is to add some kind of checkpoint or object specific to the escape sequence that's tied to an achievement or something, so that the extra-challenge mode is available but doesn't affect the main game. (Or to just do that in a linear action game where constantly missing things is normal, rather than a Metroidvania game where it ruins the core concept.)

 

[Fireblend]

That escape sequence is the point when I fell in love with this game. I'm surprised it's so divisive.

 

[PaulloDEC]

Those escape sequences were some of the most conflicting pieces of gameplay I've ever played. On one hand they had me tearing my hair out at times, but when you actually beat them there's no better feeling. And my god, the visuals and sound are something else, even by the standards set by the rest of the game.

 

[Saikyo]

It should be more difficult than what came before, but not unfair and frustrating.

We didnt played the same game then, Ori was really fun except for these parts. They needed to choose keeping more checkpoints or making less of a hassle getting all the items.

Spoiler

Also the design choice of you cant revisit some stages or even your save after you complete the game and locking it for an paid update/enhanced version dont make me praise this game so much