Completely untrue, and part of the scare tactics of right-wing media.
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Spain shatters two-party rule, Europe watches as it turns into an ungovernable mess
- Thread starter Funky Papa
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Completely untrue, and part of the scare tactics of right-wing media.
There is, actually. It is called España 2000, and it has even the same logo as FN, only with Spanish colours. They have very, very little support. Like, < 0.1% probably. They do have a couple of elected officials here and there though.
Depends on how you define Francoists. If you mean people who were active during the dictatorship, no, I do not think there are any. If you mean people who probably support the Francoist ideas, yes, plenty. They are all in PP, as that party was actually founded by Francoist ministers after the death of Franco.
= (
And don't forget that the senate exists for the sole reason of correcting typos in bills.
Only come here if you already have the job before coming. The unemployment rate is 22%.
Bwahahahahahah, the Popular party is a right wing party, it's just they call themselves a center party, granted, it's nothing like het front nationale in france, but once every couple of years someone of his candidates proposes something aligned with their thesis, like the candidate of PP to catalonia Xavier Garcia Albiol which was previosly mayor of a catalonian city and has racist proposals.
In fact a categorization will be like this:
PP - Right wing (right center sometimes)
Ciudadanos - Right center (oscilating between right and center)
UPyD - center (right center sometimes, but has been decimated by bad decisions)
PSOE - left center (they claim left wing, but oscilate between left center and left)
Podemos - Left wing (Not radicals, but it is very difficult for them to agree on something wit the traditional partys)
IU - Left Wing (they and Podemos try to merge at the start of the electoral campaign but with no avail, has many voters but with the current electoral law it's very difficult for them get a seat, this election, PP has a seat for every 60K votes and IU has a seat for every 450K)
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
That would be Pablo Echenique, physicist, researcher at the Spanish National Research Council and Iglesias' main opponent within Podemos.
But you are right. The sudden influx of new, younger politicians have brought a lot of attractive people to politics after decades of crusty old politicians with even crustier and older discourses. It's refreshing, even if most of them are still a bunch of shitheels.
Some quick examples:
Inés Arrimadas (C's)
Begoña Villacís (C's)
Melisa Rodríguez (C's)
Borja Sémper (PP)
Pablo Casado (PP)
Arantza Quiroga (PP)
Eva Aizpurúa (IU/UP)
THIS FUCKING GUY (JxS)
And for the twink lovers out there...
Iñigo Errejón (Podemos)
Notice how the vast majority of hot politicians are conservative/neoliberal. It's kind of baffling.
Acidote
Member
I don't even think PSOE qualifies as left center anymore. They are downright center, leaning more to the right every passing year. And if you read their political programmes, Ciudadanos leans even more to the right than the PP in a lot of matters. Pretty much in everything but religion and regionalism (they're against seccession in a different way)
This is something that be worked on and underlined, the electoral system in Spain is a big and unfair mess.
Top graph would be the result using the system without the regional component and making all the votes count the same.
2nd graph is what we have with our current flawed system where each region has it's own pie to split and where if the number of votes doesn't go over certain thresholds, it just doesn't count.
In the lowest graph there is the number of votes and the representation in the parlament that they have got this year.
As it can be evidenced by the graph, UP (previously IU), has only 2 representatives with almost one million votes.
I know that the current system has good points because it takes care of regional representation and differences in the central government, but it should be enough with the regional representatives that we choose earlier this year.
This video is probably very interesting for you guys, as it's in English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPxeaEQDdDA&feature=youtu.be
I'm glad we are finally breaking the two party rule. It's great. I'm still mad PP "won" though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPxeaEQDdDA&feature=youtu.be
I'm glad we are finally breaking the two party rule. It's great. I'm still mad PP "won" though.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Germany has more than 4 relevant parties and things are going well.
These spanish parties have to figure out coalitions.
These spanish parties have to figure out coalitions.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I read some of podemos policies on their website. I have no idea how they can do much of that.
And also its so frustrating every damn new left party has a wretched foreign policy. Their platform openly states they want to stop "Natos destabilizing presence in Eastern Europe" (no mention of Russia) and they want to have a national referendum for every foreign intervention.
I know Europe's fed up with "politics as usual" but their sudden fascination with either the far left or far right is a recipe for nothing to get done and cruise crisis to crisis.
And also its so frustrating every damn new left party has a wretched foreign policy. Their platform openly states they want to stop "Natos destabilizing presence in Eastern Europe" (no mention of Russia) and they want to have a national referendum for every foreign intervention.
I know Europe's fed up with "politics as usual" but their sudden fascination with either the far left or far right is a recipe for nothing to get done and cruise crisis to crisis.
2 party rule is always a bad idea, just look to the US to see that issue. There's a lot of issues with multi-party governments but it's the more democratic and representative system.
Key to fixing those issues:
1) Ranked Proportional Voting - aka "I pick Party A, my 2nd choice is Party C, my 3rd choice is Party D, abstain on Party B". This ensures no split voting between conservative parties and liberal parties etc.
2) Governments willing to form coalitions to keep government running.
Number 1 is most important. It's something I hope we implement in Canada.
Key to fixing those issues:
1) Ranked Proportional Voting - aka "I pick Party A, my 2nd choice is Party C, my 3rd choice is Party D, abstain on Party B". This ensures no split voting between conservative parties and liberal parties etc.
2) Governments willing to form coalitions to keep government running.
Number 1 is most important. It's something I hope we implement in Canada.
Just so you know GAF, politic laws in spain are made/designed not to benefit the country, just to benefit those in the power and guarantee their positions there for as long as they can.
Here in Spain every party uses the hate to the others and their bad practices as an argument to win. If one shows support to another, it will feel like a betrayal to their voters.
That also means that a coalition government would be a shit because when trying to make new laws and such, there would always be a lot of disagreements.
Right now, a coalition would mean the death one of the parties, and a worthless senate.
Here in Spain every party uses the hate to the others and their bad practices as an argument to win. If one shows support to another, it will feel like a betrayal to their voters.
That also means that a coalition government would be a shit because when trying to make new laws and such, there would always be a lot of disagreements.
Right now, a coalition would mean the death one of the parties, and a worthless senate.
Acidote
Member
I would actually love that. That would stop getting the country in a war against the desires of a huge, and I mean HUGE majority of the population as happened before. Yes, I am talking about Irak.
There's people arguing for an extreme idea based on the first premise (One idea I'm against if the first one got implemented): if you vote yes for that kind of intervention you're automatically considered a volunteer.
Business
Member
As detailed as the OP is I missed a mention to the fact Podemos has put the celebration of a referendum in Catalonia as a condition for any potential alliances, including one with PSOE. I think it helps explaining some of their success in Catalonia and the Basque Country as well.
mocolostrocolos
Member
Biggest issue and the origin of the shitstorm of corruption an other problems we have here in Spain has to do, imho, with the Ley Electoral that gives more value to the vote of someone from Soria, for instance, than someone from Madrid.
That, and the bloody D'Hont law.
IU-UP had to get 450.000 votes to get 1 seat in the Congress while PP only needed 55.000.
What does this mean?
PP can geat easier an Absolute Majority, do whatever the fuck they want to protect themselves. Steal whatever they want. Change any laws they want and so.
But, that's even worse when Senate is also under one party only, because all changes in the constitution that are proposed in the congress have to be revisited in the Senate.
What does this mean? That while not having AM in the congress, PP can still throw away any propose regarding changes in the Election Law via Senate.
And this is why I don't vote.
Ps. Sorry if I'm not making myself clear, I'm on the phone.
That, and the bloody D'Hont law.
IU-UP had to get 450.000 votes to get 1 seat in the Congress while PP only needed 55.000.
What does this mean?
PP can geat easier an Absolute Majority, do whatever the fuck they want to protect themselves. Steal whatever they want. Change any laws they want and so.
But, that's even worse when Senate is also under one party only, because all changes in the constitution that are proposed in the congress have to be revisited in the Senate.
What does this mean? That while not having AM in the congress, PP can still throw away any propose regarding changes in the Election Law via Senate.
And this is why I don't vote.
Ps. Sorry if I'm not making myself clear, I'm on the phone.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
The problem is that the country's political culture is eh... peculiar. People don't vote because they like someone's proposals, they vote so the other guy doesn't get to decide anything.
And the parties themselves embrace this, often painting their rivals as nothing but jew killing nazis or baby eating communists.
Took 15 years of nonmajority rule to run us into the dirt.. As always, great OP Funky Papa. It's been a long election week, the Ciudadanos meltdown (comparing the results with those inflated poll predictions), PP and Pedro Sánchez results are interesting too. I have no idea how the near future will be. New elections? PSOE - PP working together? Who knows.
Sickboy007
Member
Eva Aizpurúa (IU/UP)
Holy shit I'm in love.
Good lord, she can shatter my bipartitism whenever she wants. Great thread as always, Papa!
Vasili2K38
Member
Amazing post Funky, as a Spaniard extremely bitter about the last years in Spain (I recently moved to Germany), this post is AMAZING. Thumbs up pal.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Both Podemos and C's are huge on reforming/abolishing the Senate and fixing the electoral system so it's more representative. Podemos may go even further as they also propose significant reforms at territorial level. The problem is, they need to achieve enough popular support to get there as both PP and PSOE will fight with teeth and nails in order to keep their artificially embiggened representation at the Congress and Senate (which is particularly grotesque).
There's very little "far left" about Podemos. Many of their proposals could be mistaken as the PSOE's platform back in the early 80's. The sad reality is that Podemos looks disruptive because the old left has become regressive.
Some of their projects could be easily financed if they achieved their goal of reforming the administration and expunging corruption at the highest levels. Even a small win there could be a huge relief. Spain spent the absurd amount of €100 billion euros bailing out its corrupt banks alone; money that could be found and provisioned with upmost urgency to save terrible institutions ridden with corrupt politicians, but couldn't be used to fix the country or rescue a population with over two million children in risk of poverty and an entire generation lost.
As for Ukrainie, that's probably the thing that gets me madder about Podemos. They may not be "for Putin", but they are being incredibly short-sighted due to their own political inclinations and (probably) a huge case of cognitive dissonance. It's a crying shame that they are unable to find that nuance when it comes to Ukrainie and it's one of the capital reasons why I want Podemos to slow their roll.
I'm cool with referendums for foreign interventions not bound by agreements, however. Spain itself aborrs military adventurism, yet despite that we've been pulled into conflicts we wanted nothing about, Iraq being the prime example. The fact that our government knows that the population is generally against military intervention also makes them more brazen in their secretism. Something needs to be done there.
That is indeed important. I'll add it as well as PSOE's position.
Probably because:
a) Governance is a much more important topic right now that the evolution of the smaller parties. We are talking about uncharted waters, so the media focus on the power players is both expected and normal.
ERC's newly gained strenght may become a hot topic if a minority government is instated the PP needs over 50% of the votes in order to enact new policies, but it won't matter too much in the grand scale of things until then. Their political capital is set to be blocked for a while.
b) That rise is debatable. ERC got a huge result and may get to play it for effect down the line, but DiL got trashed. And the nationalist situation in the Vasque Country is sorryful. A remote controlled Podemos utterly eviscerated Bildu and surpassed the PNV in popular support to become the most voted force in the region, even if they got a smaller amout of MPs because the electoral system is a steaming heap of dung. All of this is coincident with the latest surveys showing that the Vasque population is becoming less and less concerned with the notion of independence.
So yeah, ERC did great and is right to beat its chest, but everybody else got (t)rolled big time.
If any, I'm more amused by how little attention they are paying to C's result, which at some point was predicted to become the third if not second largest political party in Spain. While they are having a strong start, they are the real losers of this election and the media is ignoring it after weeks of the most brazen propaganda.
I think it's a mistake to believe that Podemos is losing a huge number of votes due to its pro-referendum position. While many people at the PSOE may not like the idea, they are only siding with Sánchez out of loyalty.
I also believe that the media is purposefully obscuring the fact that there's a big and rising portion of the Spanish population that is pro-referendum. We'll see what happens to Podemos' voting base if the PSOE backs a PP government either actively or by abstention. Vote flight could be huge.
I'm betting a PP-PSOE red wedding with either Rajoy or Sánchez (if not both of them) being sacrificed.
Dang. I named her because she was one of the youngest faces; I didn't know she was onto new things now (then again, it's hard to keep up with IU with their tiny mainstream coverage). I guess I could replace her with Podemos' Irene Montero, who's a total cutie pie.
Most people seem unaware that even if they went mad with power, Podemos couldn't come close to go full Chávez (let alone satisfy their initial proposals) because it also happens to be a strongly pro-European party bound by EU policies and a voting base that would want none of that. Monedero can keep barking as much as he wants.
Business
Member
It is debatable how many of CiU's vote in 2011 was independentist but I think it's a fact their program wasn't independentist, so one can only guess.
In 2011 you have 3 clear cut independentist seats from ERC and in 2015 you have 8 from DL and 9 from ERC, 17. I'm not arguing the rise is 3 to 17, but I don't think it's fair either to say it's 19 to 17. In the middle ground of that you most probably still have a decent rise.
zero shift
Banned
Funky Papa, which party do you prefer?
Funyarinpa
Member
Similar thing happened here in Turkey. Coalition negotiations failed, terror escalated in the meantime, there was a reelection four months later which was a landslide victory for the conservative side.
Hopefully Spain doesn't end up the same way.
Hopefully Spain doesn't end up the same way.
The stories of political corruption that I hear from my GF's family/friends make me almost grateful we only have the Tories in the UK. One member of her family works in the same industry as I do, is way more senior/experienced, but makes less money and works way more hours than I do, and thats all just because the economy in Spain is such a joke at the moment
I really hope Podemos are able to instigate some kind of change, because the current situation cant go on much longer
I really hope Podemos are able to instigate some kind of change, because the current situation cant go on much longer
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
Who exactly are the people on the stage in this picture? I've gleaned from this thread that political fashion in Spain doesn't tend toward the professional as it does in the US, but these guys look like a bunch of slobs. The people in the audience are better dressed than the people on the stage. Are those the actual politicians? Those men in the front are wearing ratty looking jeans. There's a guy with a denim jacket on up there.
Eternal Gamer
Member
I do read the thread, and I see how Podemos is riding a similar wave to the one Chavez did to raise to power in Venezuela, people tired of a long economic crisis and the inability of the established parties to fix it. Chavez´s movement presented itself as an alternative and got pretty popular, at the beginning it had a wide spectrum of political supporters so it looked moderate but as the time passed his party became more and more radical to the point you either share their vision or you are a puppet of the US.
The OP says Podemos have become moderate in order to widen its appeal but their ties to the goverment of Venezuela don't give me any trust in them. Now that they have some power we will be able to see their true colors.
Another difference is the income of the country, Venezuela depends almost entirely from the oil revenue, since all of it is owned by the goverment, Chávez had all the money at his disposal to do whatever he wanted, Spain have more diversified exports that bring a balance to the country.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
There are just many different factors that prevent Podemos from being a crazy revolutionary party like the former duopoly is trying to portray.
-Spain has a more diverse economy that Venezuela
-Spain corruption, while huge, is only located at the top of the chain; the rest of the state's apparatus is generally clean
-Spain's society is highly stable
-Spain happens to be an UE member state and Podemos a pro-European party
-Unlike Chavez, who got crazier each day it passed, Iglesias had to tone the fuck down his discourse in order to reach the mainstream
-The success of the party is tied to its mainstream appeal now -kill it and you'll kill the party
-The party's expansion meant the appointment of people with more diverse backgrounds and ideas got in, making radicalisation much more difficult
-Far from being a revolutionary party, Podemos is copying large chunks of its platform from OG social democrats (which are dead and buried by now)
Basically, anybody comparing Podemos to the rise of Hugo Chávez (or Spain to Greece) is out of their rocker and I feel bad for having to explain it. With that said, Podemos is an untested party. This is why I'd like them to spend some good time at the Congress in order to see their progression.
-Spain has a more diverse economy that Venezuela
-Spain corruption, while huge, is only located at the top of the chain; the rest of the state's apparatus is generally clean
-Spain's society is highly stable
-Spain happens to be an UE member state and Podemos a pro-European party
-Unlike Chavez, who got crazier each day it passed, Iglesias had to tone the fuck down his discourse in order to reach the mainstream
-The success of the party is tied to its mainstream appeal now -kill it and you'll kill the party
-The party's expansion meant the appointment of people with more diverse backgrounds and ideas got in, making radicalisation much more difficult
-Far from being a revolutionary party, Podemos is copying large chunks of its platform from OG social democrats (which are dead and buried by now)
Basically, anybody comparing Podemos to the rise of Hugo Chávez (or Spain to Greece) is out of their rocker and I feel bad for having to explain it. With that said, Podemos is an untested party. This is why I'd like them to spend some good time at the Congress in order to see their progression.
It looks like a political rally. More casual clothes are to be expected among social democrats trying to reach out the population. I see nothing particularly wrong with that. I'd rather lambast Iglesias for looking like an unpresidential pothead 24/7 than the PSOE for indulging in casual Friday.
Who exactly are the people on the stage in this picture? I've gleaned from this thread that political fashion in Spain doesn't tend toward the professional as it does in the US, but these guys look like a bunch of slobs. The people in the audience are better dressed than the people on the stage. Are those the actual politicians? Those men in the front are wearing ratty looking jeans. There's a guy with a denim jacket on up there.
I'd rather tell you which party I despise the most.
It's the PP.
Good recap of the elections, Funky Papa.
While I also think governing Spain will be almost impossible, I think the country needed to slap the PP and the PSOE on the face.
And I think, the circumscriptions should be abolished. Right now, there's no real democracy if my vote does not have the same value as someone from Teruel or Cataluña.
While I also think governing Spain will be almost impossible, I think the country needed to slap the PP and the PSOE on the face.
And I think, the circumscriptions should be abolished. Right now, there's no real democracy if my vote does not have the same value as someone from Teruel or Cataluña.
Business
Member
I don't know if you have any hands on real experience with that but I've personally seen things dodgy enough with public university or city councils budget to make me think the issue is not top or bottom of the chain, but the scale that top or bottom allow for.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I worked for the administration for a good while. More precisely at a regional tax revenue-related department that dealt with urban planning. I've seen everything.
What I mean is that you don't get to pay cops to evade a fine, give an expensive gift to a doctor to cut lines nor slide an envelope to the tax inspector so they won't crucify you if they look into your finances. You don't bribe the public official working at a cubicle in the city council so you can open a computer repair shop, neither regale the one who just looked at the paperwork of your new apartment with coke and whores so you don't pay the corresponding taxes. For the most part, things work out just fine.
Fuckery exists at institutions, but unlike in much of Eastern Europe and Latin America, low to mid-tier public servants per se are generally clean. This is probably one of the chief reasons why Spain remains a fully functioning country despite having immensely corrupt politicians.
Who exactly are the people on the stage in this picture? I've gleaned from this thread that political fashion in Spain doesn't tend toward the professional as it does in the US, but these guys look like a bunch of slobs. The people in the audience are better dressed than the people on the stage. Are those the actual politicians? Those men in the front are wearing ratty looking jeans. There's a guy with a denim jacket on up there.
Their wearing shirts and jackets. Fucking hell.
Acidote
Member
Ok guys, urban planning. When he says he has seen everything be assured that he has seen EVERYTHING.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Including a small bit of Valencia!
(although not the coastline, thank baby Jesus)
(although not the coastline, thank baby Jesus)
Business
Member
Then corruption happens at all levels. From the small business that evades sales tax to the town council that tells someone this land will soon change from agricultural to industrial soil so buy it now (I've seen both). Sure you don't bribe the police and thank god for that, but this doesn't mean the bottom is clean and only the top is dirty.
It would be a role where you would see a lot of corruption of various types if it exists.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Podemos actually seems interesting.
Nikodemos
Member
If only they weren't predictably Ameriphobic like many other "New Left" parties. Dunno why every such movement is so cookie-cutter anti-US (but nary a peep about Volodya's continued fuckery).
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Fantastic OP. You should turn that into an infographic and get internet fame.
The problem I saw with Podemos it's their "red lines" are too many and appear too soon, it's like to have them agree in one proposal the other parties have to give up in everything, that's the main thing I don't like about them, they seem too much combative and little talkative.
And I had voted for them, but just because:
PP: Don't like proposals and their leaders are corrupt
PSOE: Like their proposals but their leaders are corrupt
Ciudadanos: Like their leader and their 80% of their proposals, but the other 20% are scary
IU: Like their leader and their proposals but are a little naive about some things and our current electoral system don't give them any opportunities.
Just chose Podemos because their proposals at least are spoken by their foundations and (and very similar to the PSOE ones, the proposals, not the foundations), at least right now aren't corrupt (they haven't got any opportunity until now), they have moderated lately, and the electoral system wasn't gonna penalize them. The thing I dislike it's their leader, I don't like Pablo Iglesias as I said before it seems littke talkative and too much combative.
And the problem with Ameriphobic parties in my humble opinnion comes from two points of American behaviour (Country behaviour, not citizenship):
1 - Their double standars about other countries (like every other countries, including european ones)
2 - Their custom of being the world police (european countries prefer to talk about the problem during months or years and do nothing or look to other side, including american side hoping the americans would do something)
But don't get confused, America get so much hate because right now it's the big fish in the pond.
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