Mgsv embraces the stupid dumb shit that people love about how metal gear plays. That's why decoys work when they're so dumb, that's why cardboard boxes are effective as a tool in warfare, and why you can strap a balloon to a tank and have a helicopter bring it back to your base.
At some point you have to embrace it too lest these inconsistencies eat you alive
Miller is aware but he was pissed because he had no say in it. It wouldn't make sense for Ocelot to tell him at any point other than prior to Venom arriving at Mother Base because he puts himself under hypnosis after he parts ways with Big Boss. You can tell he's already under hypnosis by that point because if you tranq him during the CQC training mission he says the "2+2=5" code word thing.
I totally forgot that ocelot says that when you tranq him
still, that conversation they have at the end makes zero sense regarding the Miller always knew theory because doesn't ocelot talk to Miller about Eli in that same conversation? Maybe he doesn't refer to him by name though.
Not just 2+2=5 but also the AI malfunction line, which not a lot of people talk about for some reason. I think it's really interesting this exists in the game and the fact that Ocelot of all characters saying it makes it even more interesting. It just goes to show he was a Cipher/Patriot agent here as well, or at least had some kind of ties with them and specifically Zero, which we already knew of course. Interesting note, when he mumbles the Japanese train-station names/malfunction line the subs disappear for no reason at all.
If you're not into the MGS story you won't understand what Ocelot is talking about there.
Not just 2+2=5 but also the AI malfunction line, which not a lot of people talk about for some reason. I think it's really interesting this exists in the game and the fact that Ocelot of all characters saying it makes it even more interesting. It just goes to show he was a Cipher/Patriot agent here as well, or at least had some kind of ties with them and specifically Zero, which we already knew of course. Interesting note, when he mumbles the Japanese train-station names/malfunction line the subs disappear for no reason at all.
If you're not into the MGS story you won't understand what Ocelot is talking about there.
It's definitely a MGS easter egg, but there is also a reasoning behind it. I think it refers to Ocelot's self-hypnosis, he's acting like V.Snake is the real Big Boss because that was his objective in this game. We can't put him to sleep because, as he says himself, he had some kind of resistance training. But he clearly loses it the more you tranq him, very similiar to how AI's in the past MGS games also lose it such as GW or was it JD? in MGS2, Gray Fox, the AI pod in Peace Walker and the iDroid in Ground Zeroes.
Other than that, I was initially hoping for more crazy reasons for this, but alas this isn't MGS2.
Did not know the bolded actually, completely missed that for some reason. But after reading your post and thinking it over, the game does give fair job on giving you some incentives if you want to go "guns blazing" and in some missions even favorably ranks you for doing so. I just got really snowed in on the whole fame and demon points stat you get if you do go lethally, as I said, the risk of getting the demon version is enough for me to stray from lethal weapons lol
I feel you, I got the demon mode in my main save file (saying that I kill a lot would be an understatement, lol, but it was the nuke what made me go from level 2 demon to level 3), and now that I'm starting a new game from scratch I can't believe I've been putting up with that crap for so many hours.
And yeah, on the C2W mission they teach you how to disable the communications of any given outpost to prevent them from calling backup; the method that you follow in that mission can be done in any other outpost, but there's an easier one where you can just shoot out the radio equipment (which is usually inside a building) for the same outcome, without having to search for all the antennas.
Same, literally unlocked it then she disappears. So poorly designed. Why even give her battle an extreme mission when she's designed to leave at that stage in the game?
Same, literally unlocked it then she disappears. So poorly designed. Why even give her battle an extreme mission when she's designed to leave at that stage in the game?
I never got a chance to unlock it while she was around, so playing through Extreme and having her wear it there was almost as if the game was taunting me with it.
I don't understand one thing. Why does Zero make Venom and hide Big Boss? Doesn't Zero send Paz to take him out in Peace Walker? Isn't the entire point of the series that Zero and BB are against each other because they interpreted the "will of the Boss" in different ways?
Same, literally unlocked it then she disappears. So poorly designed. Why even give her battle an extreme mission when she's designed to leave at that stage in the game?
Kojima made the most fucked up thing happen to a 13 year old and threw him out rather than maybe explore what happens to people after that kind of torture. Same with Paz.
I don't understand one thing. Why does Zero make Venom and hide Big Boss? Doesn't Zero send Paz to take him out in Peace Walker? Isn't the entire point of the series that Zero and BB are against each other because they interpreted the "will of the Boss" in different ways?
Zero envisioned Snake and his mercenaries as the army for his organization, but Snake refused despite Zero's persistence and didn't agreed with his ways. He sent Paz to get the ZEKE to use it as ransom but didn't work out, althought he never wished him any harm. He still considers Snake a trustworthy man and friend and the fact that XOF under the command of Skullface caused him so much pain troubled him greatly. He protected the comatose Big Boss in a British hospital, waiting for his recovery.
Venom was an Ocelot and Big Boss' plan, Zero had no part on it and I would add that part of the reason behind this project was to trick Zero and the rest of the world. It a sense it was Big Boss' answer to Zero's Les Enfants Terribles.
I don't understand one thing. Why does Zero make Venom and hide Big Boss? Doesn't Zero send Paz to take him out in Peace Walker? Isn't the entire point of the series that Zero and BB are against each other because they interpreted the "will of the Boss" in different ways?
I don't understand one thing. Why does Zero make Venom and hide Big Boss? Doesn't Zero send Paz to take him out in Peace Walker? Isn't the entire point of the series that Zero and BB are against each other because they interpreted the "will of the Boss" in different ways?
I don't understand one thing. Why does Zero make Venom and hide Big Boss? Doesn't Zero send Paz to take him out in Peace Walker? Isn't the entire point of the series that Zero and BB are against each other because they interpreted the "will of the Boss" in different ways?
I don't understand one thing. Why does Zero make Venom and hide Big Boss? Doesn't Zero send Paz to take him out in Peace Walker? Isn't the entire point of the series that Zero and BB are against each other because they interpreted the "will of the Boss" in different ways?
Isn't it explained as Zero coming to terms with the fact that the organization and plans he put into motion grew out of his control---such as Skullface, who is the downfall of Zero.
Venom was an Ocelot and Big Boss' plan, Zero had no part on it and I would add that part of the reason behind this project was to trick Zero and the rest of the world. It a sense it was Big Boss' answer to Zero's Les Enfants Terribles.
Uh, no. In the truth tape recording Zero's conversation with Ocelot, he talks about how he's "made another Snake". Ocelot and Zero collaborate on the making of Venom, and the whole hospital was under Zero's control. Venom was artificially kept under to match Big Boss' coma. Zero makes sure that the information doesn't leak by not telling anyone in charge about it but then he becomes pretty much a vegetable shortly after.
By 1984 it's likely that he is too far gone to advise Sigint (the apparent human figurehead for the AI system that begins sometime in the 9 year gap) about Big Boss' double, and BB + Ocelot take advantage of the situation and use the double for their own means, with Cipher (Patriot AI's, Para-Medic, Sigint, and probably EVA) none the wiser. Zero's secrecy once again bites him in the ass.
Isn't it explained as Zero coming to terms with the fact that the organization and plans he put into motion grew out of his control---such as Skullface, who is the downfall of Zero.
It just seems like zero knew he was going to be severely disabled soon and wanted to leave things with Jack in a better place. By the beginning of tpp, he's handed control of cipher to Donald and has lost complete control of skull face and xof. Seems like he just wants to make up with his old bro before he is incapable of doing so any longer.
Crazy. I didn't catch the part about Donald taking over the AIs. So how does shit go wrong there? Do they go wild once he passes? Or were we supposed to think that happened before MGS1?
Zero envisioned Snake and his mercenaries as the army for his organization, but Snake refused despite Zero's persistence and didn't agreed with his ways. He sent Paz to get the ZEKE to use it as ransom but didn't work out, although he never wished him any harm. He still considers Snake a trustworthy man and friend and the fact that XOF under the command of Skullface caused him so much pain troubled him greatly. He protected the comatose Big Boss in a British hospital, waiting for his recovery.
Venom was an Ocelot and Big Boss' plan, Zero had no part on it and I would add that part of the reason behind this project was to trick Zero and the rest of the world. It a sense it was Big Boss' answer to Zero's Les Enfants Terribles.
This is incorrect. In the Truth Tapes - it is Zero that suggested to Ocelot he has a plan to hide Big boss and created Venom. He also visits Big Boss.
It is entirely possible that Zero never meant to "kill" Big Boss but just keep him at bay. I see why Miller would want to hunt Zero down because he thinks XOF is Cipher (aka Zero's organization). What doesn't make sense is that Big Boss then joins Foxhound and orders Solid Snake to kill Venom Snake in Metal Gear 1. I guess it means means that Big Boss rejoined Foxhound after Zero fell into a deprecated state after Skullface got to him and the AI's were in control of Foxhound by the time Big Boss rejoined them.
The problem is that in MGS 4 - Big Boss, Ocelot and Eva all make it seem like Zero was the bad guy and in MGS V it actually is that Skullface hurt Zero, made him go into bad shape and the AI's misinterpret his "will" and takes things too far where Zero wouldn't have. Big Boss seems to not care that it was actually Skullface (or doesn't know) and also doesn't consider that Zero actually helped him stay hidden from Skullface.
This is incorrect. In the Truth Tapes - it is Zero that suggested to Ocelot he has a plan to hide Big boss and created Venom. He also visits Big Boss.
It is entirely possible that Zero never meant to "kill" Big Boss but just keep him at bay. I see why Miller would want to hunt Zero down because he things XOF is Cipher (aka Zero's organization). What doesn't make sense is that Big Boss then joins Foxhound and orders Solid Snake to kill Venom Snake in Metal Gear 1. I guess it means means that Big Boss rejoined Foxhound after Zero fell into a deprecated state after Skullface got to him and the AI's were in control of Foxhound by the time Big Boss rejoined them.
The problem is that in MGS 4 - Big Boss, Ocelot and Eva all make it seem like Zero was the bad guy and in MGS V it actually is that Skullface hurt Zero, made him go into bad shape and the AI's misinterpret his "will" and takes things too far where Zero wouldn't have. Big Boss seems to not care that it was actually Skullface (or doesn't know) and also doesn't consider that Zero actually helped him stay hidden from Skullface.
I kind of remember some place suggesting that Big Boss did it to keep up appearances? That no one expected the rookie Solid Snake to succeed. As far as Boss was concerned, he was sending him to his death.
Was it though or was skullface such a fucking idiot that he sided with a psychic child who has a tenuous grasp on his powerful abilities and then decided to let the boy control the deadliest weapon he can get his hands on?
Skullface is by far the worst main villain in the series since, well, since hot Coldman I suppose.
Yeah i felt this was a missed opportunity. Imagine if he was actually a failed experiment of Zero to create the original "phantom" of Big Boss, got his face burned off and was pissed he was his phantom this whole time in XOF and decided to take his revenge on Big Boss and Zero. That would have made much more sense for motivations.
I see this as he let's the Patriot AI's expand Cipher's grasp over the entire world while trying to (generally) steer it away from drastic and radical changes (like the war economy). Even though MGSV implies they'll go to that eventually anyways, I see Sigint's death at Shadow Moses as the AI's turning point for finding self-autonomy and proceeding without regulation.
In MGS2, they deliberately try to recreate the Shadow Moses incident in order to test their S3 plan. Their fixation on the event is probably at least partially based on it being the event that "freed" them. Based on their end dialogue in MGS2, they seem to consider themselves very above humanity, after all they've spent a few decades making all the decisions on the leash of someone they effectively saw as a puppet. They clearly see themselves as an inevitable development for society, and imply they have no direct origin in MGS2.
This isn't actually true given what we have now in terms of retroactive continuity, but they may believe at that point that humans were bound to create them no matter what, and have no attachment to their purpose of fulfilling a human will, and thus consider "Cipher" to be an outdated organization that has served its purpose as a stepping stone for their rule and their plan to foster human civilization from that point on. "Cipher" as far as the world is concerned never existed, so they don't feel obliged to regard them as anything but a group of humans who have served their purpose.
This I think is why the system gets so warped, after losing Sigint, and probably no one having been set up as his successor, the AI's enter Zero's "backup mode" and act on their own, since he made them to forever enforce his interpretation of the Boss' will, it makes sense they'd have a backup to be able to act without human guidance. With this change, they are free to pursue their "will", which is still bound on the programming they were given to create a "world without borders", by any means.
I imagine they had already been working on human manipulation that was approved by Sigint as it lines up well with Zero's plan, but I bet they used it to influence Sigint as well, make sure their suggestions were put into action as often as possible. Anyways, the S3 plan was probably something Sigint wouldn't have gone as far as authorizing, but they could do whatever they wanted after the Shadow Moses incident so it went into effect.
The war economy was speculated as being the most obvious course for the AI's to pursue in some of the Truth tapes, and they went through with it after proving they could control huge amounts of information simultaneously with the S3 plan. At this point they seem like they reach a dead end in their development because a world in the hold of the war economy, devoid of conflict with any ideals or national pride getting in the way, fulfills their twisted interpretation of their programming. And so they keep the world in a holding pattern at this point, cue Solid and Ocelot bringing down the system to free the world from any more "universal" control or "will".
It could be speculated that the AI's had more in mind to advance humanity, perhaps let the war economy operate for a few decades, eventually erasing the idea of nations and perhaps having PMC's become the new order. Their plan could be to "tear the world asunder, and then it shall be free", but I'm not sure. It's interesting to wonder though if they planned on using the war economy to shave away national identity, then after all concepts of notions like of "morals", "ideals", "religion", self identity are abandoned by humanity, they'd sweep in to form a "one world" government that'd stand unopposed.
From their they'd probably rule humanity and perhaps truly advance it beyond its own natural capabilities to rule itself, but the individuals would be fodder, and there would be no point to living in a world devoid of self purpose. There's no telling that they wouldn't eventually just decide that humans are a hassle and end their existence before heading off into space. Personally I'd see ending the human race as beyond their original relatively broad programming, so I don't think they could do it even if they wanted to, but they could leave them as sheep on Earth to forever live a life of "peace".
This post got kind of beyond its original point and became a pretty big speculation post on the difference between the Patriot AI's and Cipher's will, but I thought it was interesting enough to type up, so I hope it was interesting to read through!
TL;DR
Bottom line, I think Sigint kept the AI's from doing anything like making plans to start an endless cycle of war or controlling populations en masse with the S3 plan. I think Sigint probably kept things under relative control, that is, the various governments of the world became puppets for Cipher but the people weren't intentionally brainwashed. Sigint's death could be seen as the starting point for the Patriot AI's to go off the hook and really screw everything up, I don't see Sigint as corrupting Zero's vision as much as the AI's did.
After all, in MGS2 they seem to consider themselves to have been an inevitable development, and don't seem too attached to honoring their human creator's wills. Sure retcons and all, but I see them as only being bound by broad programming based on Zero's will with the only "checks and balances" being that they couldn't act unless an appointed human leader approved the action, and that their actions must fulfill the plan to make a "world without borders" to create "peace for mankind".Only problems are that even those checks were flawed, since I interpret the former to have a "backup" that allows full autonomy if the human leader ends up dead without a successor, and the latter does not actually have the goal of preventing war and destruction, just a dissolution of nations and keeping humans from killing each other in nuclear war.
It just seems like zero knew he was going to be severely disabled soon and wanted to leave things with Jack in a better place. By the beginning of tpp, he's handed control of cipher to Donald and has lost complete control of skull face and xof. Seems like he just wants to make up with his old bro before he is incapable of doing so any longer.
Yeah, it seems with V Kojima decided to make Zero less of a diabolical villain and more of just an old man whose power got the better of him. He strove to create a world that he thought the Boss wanted, through corrupt means yes, but it seems now he didn't want something like the war economy to put the world in a stranglehold or for the S3 plan to brainwash people. Indirect societal manipulation to reach a "one human nation" ideal, rather than oppression of thought and the individual to keep the world in a state of constant "nationless war".
I see this as he let's the Patriot AI's expand Cipher's grasp over the entire world while trying to (generally) steer it away from drastic and radical changes (like the war economy). Even though MGSV implies they'll go to that eventually anyways, I see Sigint's death at Shadow Moses as the AI's turning point for finding self-autonomy and proceeding without regulation.
In MGS2, they deliberately try to recreate the Shadow Moses incident in order to test their S3 plan. Their fixation on the event is probably at least partially based on it being the event that "freed" them. Based on their end dialogue in MGS2, they seem to consider themselves very above humanity, after all they've spent a few decades making all the decisions on the leash of someone they effectively saw as a puppet. They clearly see themselves as an inevitable development for society, and imply they have no direct origin in MGS2.
This isn't actually true given what we have now in terms of retroactive continuity, but they may believe at that point that humans were bound to create them no matter what, and have no attachment to their purpose of fulfilling a human will, and thus consider "Cipher" to be an outdated organization that has served its purpose as a stepping stone for their rule and their plan to foster human civilization from that point on. "Cipher" as far as the world is concerned never existed, so they don't feel obliged to regard them as anything but a group of humans who have served their purpose.
This I think is why the system gets so warped, after losing Sigint, and probably no one having been set up as his successor, the AI's enter Zero's "backup mode" and act on their own, since he made them to forever enforce his interpretation of the Boss' will, it makes sense they'd have a backup to be able to act without human guidance. With this change, they are free to pursue their "will", which is still bound on the programming they were given to create a "world without borders", by any means.
I imagine they had already been working on human manipulation that was approved by Sigint as it lines up well with Zero's plan, but I bet they used it to influence Sigint as well, make sure their suggestions were put into action as often as possible. Anyways, the S3 plan was probably something Sigint wouldn't have gone as far as authorizing, but they could do whatever they wanted after the Shadow Moses incident so it went into effect.
The war economy was speculated as being the most obvious course for the AI's to pursue in some of the Truth tapes, and they went through with it after proving they could control huge amounts of information simultaneously with the S3 plan. At this point they seem like they reach a dead end in their development because a world in the hold of the war economy, devoid of conflict with any ideals or national pride getting in the way, fulfills their twisted interpretation of their programming. And so they keep the world in a holding pattern at this point, cue Solid and Ocelot bringing down the system to free the world from any more "universal" control or "will".
Your speculation is valid but the most frustrating part about your post is that Emma is not mentioned a single time. And I don't blame you for forgetting. She was the head tech leading development of the AIs. She is the creator of GW. And she has basically been forgotten by the series storyline now, similar to how Otacon's advancements in Metal Gear turned out to retroactively be not that advanced afterall. It's all Sigint this, Strangelove that, and Huey those now. With some awkward period in the 90s and 2005 where tech seemingly regressed...?
This all happened because SigInt didn't want to get in the box with Snake. If he'd gotten in the box with Snake he'd understand that in the end it had to be this way.
First time posting in this thread... Just finished chapter 46... Holy shit mayne. So Big Boss is just hiding out while all this crazy shit hangs in the balance? What's his reasoning for hiding out, and how does he get into the good graces of the government?
First time posting in this thread... Just finished chapter 46... Holy shit mayne. So Big Boss is just hiding out while all this crazy shit hangs in the balance? What's his reasoning for hiding out, and how does he get into the good graces of the government?
We don't know how he gets back. Mostly assumptions. The assumption I got is Zero falls back cause he is really sick. SIGINT takes over. BB goes over to SIGINT and asks for the FOXHOUND job.
As to why he goes back, the range of my assumptions go from, he wanted to get fresh godly recruits from the units there to the "keep your enemies closer" tactic.
This all happened because SigInt didn't want to get in the box with Snake. If he'd gotten in the box with Snake he'd understand that in the end it had to be this way.
First time posting in this thread... Just finished chapter 46... Holy shit mayne. So Big Boss is just hiding out while all this crazy shit hangs in the balance? What's his reasoning for hiding out, and how does he get into the good graces of the government?
He wanted to begin building a nation of soldiers in pursuit of world without governments. After Zero attempted to befriend his former ally with the doppelganger ploy to ensure his safety after the events of Ground Zeroes, Big Boss awoke and decided to exploit the situation by discreetly building his own true nation of mercenaries: Zanzibar Land, depicted in Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake. In the meantime, Punished "Venom" Snake was groomed to build Outer Heaven in Africa thereby taking all the heat off Big Boss's actual efforts. In regard to him falling back into good terms with Cipher post-Phantom Pain, it hasn't been officially explained but I believe he wanted to further disguise his intentions by becoming the commander of FOXHOUND and keep tabs on his clone Solid Snake.
Just finished the game and even though it left me with a "I want more" taste, I actually liked the ending. That twist was crazy, moment mission 46 was hitting me with my real name, and Miller saying that "it was just a guy w scrap in his head" I was geeking lol
Btw Skull Face's VA was awesome, and I loved Quiet (even though Kojima OD'd on some of her scenes.)
EDIT: Just remembered that thread about the head surgeon and Kojima being Kojima a few months ago lol wow
