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Fighting Games Weekly | June 8-14 | We played a lot of SG and VF for some reason
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
I'm just in love with the bit a few seconds in with the heavy guitar and light piano hit. It's so goddamn good.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/261180/
Lethal League on sale for under $5
I know people were interested, I'd go in on a 4 pack.
Lethal League on sale for under $5
I know people were interested, I'd go in on a 4 pack.
shaowebb
Member
I guess I'll have to explain this some more.
The problem I have with Ryu is simple...his moveset is good and its a fine template to evolve from. Projectile, good AA, average reach, damage and a forward low immune multihitting move for cornering/combo/ and if done in air sometimes crossups.
Thats all fine, but his template design is dull. Its generic karate guy who fights. That is a starting point to jump off from before it gets interesting as a character design and every time Capcom had an idea of where to take that idea instead of using it as an opportunity to grow the character they just made a new character instead. After awhile they just kept making things off that base template until folks said "too many shotos" in fact.
My problem is that Ryu didn't evolve. He was cool in the 80's when I was a kid and this was about all you got in terms of character depth, but that story is a very short one visually and you can only retell it so many times before its old. Its why you can't just throw a bandanna and headband on someone and call it done these days...we've seen it too much.
If the game was still set in the 1980's I guess he'd make sense but its not. The world moved on but he never grew. Even Kyo Kusanagi, Terry Bogard, and Iori Yagami grew in terms of character visuals to show the characters growing (though sadly Terry never went back to his Garou look), And yes...Superman grew too. Every new alt Ryu got was just that too...an alt. He never truly grew visually as a character or as an idea. All the new ideas became someone else so I get bored seeing him show up. Theyve taken the concept of karate guy in a lot of directions...demon, evil, cool guy, girl, black guy, old master...but they never tried to actually take the original idea anywhere and as such we ended up with a lot of variations on the karate guy theme that were just more interesting and likeable than Ryu. Granted he couldn't take the girl or black themes, but it just shows that they did a LOT of different things with the idea but never tried to apply any of that stuff to Ryu personally and thats what made him dull. As new ideas came along he just remained an old one that kept getting older.
Plus in Smash Chun or Akuma are both more interesting prospects if you need a SF rep to try and net some of the other FGC crowd into its audience. Chun has the pogo stomp that'd let her stuff folks off the edge and hop up plus the lightning legs and AA multihitting kicks. Akuma has angled fireballs, a teleport dash, projectile immune Tatsu and a divekick. Both hold stronger meta potential in terms of toolsets. Ryu isn't necessarily going to be bad, just not as interesting is how I see it.
Thats where I'm coming from on this. Ryu is boring. They took all the cool ideas they had for his character and gave them away to make new characters out of. He hasn't evolved as an idea in character or visually in almost the entirety of his lifespan. His one evolution of "what if he was a bad guy" is pretty generic, but even then they decided to just outright make a seperate character out of it. At least Liu Kang was allowed to turn against Raiden. They committed to that idea...but Ryu is just a template and nothing more. He's an unfinished idea that was finished by other characters and thats why I get bored seeing him shoved into everything.
I get why he's there...it legitimizes the game to FGC holdouts and draws in an audience and I agree with that. Its good. I just feel Ryu is the dullest way to go about it and I'd like it if Capcom either used some of their more interesting characters for crossovers next time or seriously consider developing Ryu's character more someday to make him less of an 80's concept leftover. Its a character design thing. Nothing more. Nothing less. He's a dull design and his concept hasn't gone anywhere in nearly 30 years unless it was in the direction of a seperate character. If they are gonnna keep using him then they should at least try to make him interesting.
.la1n
Member
This is sooooo good.
I really hope we get another set of SF music from Shimomura some day.
Complaining about Ryu not evolving is like complaining about Pokemon not turning into an MMORPG- there's always a younger/new generation who needs that sort of basic character, and there's always a new generation of kids who will love that new incrementally upgraded Pokemon game.
HOLY SHIT
shaowebb
Member
You're talking genres. I'm talking visual depth. Pokemon have that. Ryu does not. As I said, others evolved to tell more of a visual story where Ryu never did. Superman evolved for every era he was in. Kyo evolved from bandanna + school uniform japanese genericism to guy in a leather coat no longer dressed as a school tough to show he had grown up some. Iori evolved from his old look to a new one as well to reflect similar. The looks fit the characters and kept them fresh. I'm an art guy and Ryu bugs me. He's a dull concept and everytime they had a new idea for the concept they just made a new character instead. You can have a basic character and still have them interesting yet Ryu never gets any sort of visual indications of growth. Either that game still takes place in the 80's (which C. Viper's cell phone throws out the window) or Ryu is canon near 50 now and has a bad case of Ricky Morton syndrome of never realizing when your gimmick is old. I generally have this complaint anytime I see someone just given a karate gi and considered a complete concept idea. You don't get much from that even if you play with expressions. At least Akuma has the eyes, and demon written on his gi to indicate he is possessed. Ryu is just karate guy.
In either case, Ryu does nothing for me as a character concept. Moveset is fine, but he's dull and in need of a little touching up. Get excited if you want, but as an artist I just shake my head at him. Not even Superman got a pass that long and as folks stated he was also a template for his genre. Even if they'd just put a symbol, or slight pattern on his gi/pants it'd be something. Not like I want him to go and get a complete overhaul, just some indication of visual personality. Even if you just did something simple like replace his gi top with one with a new design or an underarmour shirt instead it'd go a long way.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
ViewtifulJC
Banned
*clicks stream 1, anime, closes tab immediately*
*clicks stream 2, anime, closes tab immediately*
ResidentSleeper
Ryu in Smash 4 looks pretty cool. Those remixes are great too. I'm really curious to see if they'll change Roy up or just make him similar to how he was in Melee.
Roster discussion after a certain point is just unbearable to read or talk about.
Roster discussion after a certain point is just unbearable to read or talk about.
DryEyeRelief
Member
So what do you think about Zero being in Marvel over Mega Man in MvC3?
shaowebb
Member
That they had more visual appeal than Ryu and that Megaman didn't make it. Seriously folks. You can try and twist this to genres or who has a right to be in what game all you want, but its not that. Its what I said...Ryu is a dull character concept visually. You can't tell me guy in a karate gi and bandanna is anything but visually vanilla till you add something else to it. Its generic.
DryEyeRelief
Member
That's not answering my question. Zero takes the Mega Man formula and adds on top of it. For that reason he was put in over the title character. Do you prefer that choice?
He is generic as hell, one thing I liked so far about SF5 is that everyone seems different, but they don't touch Ryu.
Then again if they did we'd end up with Evil Ryu- and that's just a design for people who like to scumbag it.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I like Ryu
Shut up Toddhunter god
Shut up Toddhunter god
I mean I love this shit, not going to lie. There's a certain camaraderie that forms when you find out that you aren't the only person on the planet rooting for some folks or wanting a particular game play style that a certain character could bring with them, but then people take it far too far with shit like "relevance", "history", "my perspective vs. the reality" and make up too many unnecessary and arbitrary deductions or rulings that take the fun out of just thinking about X character being in.
This is a big deal for some folks. It also kinda reminds me of how I was
(am)
shaowebb
Member
The difference is both had good concepts as a base. Ryu is generic karate gi and bandanna. And you didn't phrase that in any manner asking whether Zero being a visual evolution of Megaman mattered in that case before either so don't try to act like I'm ducking anything by pointing out something that everyone is too big on worshipping Ryu as the original to admit...that his visual design is outdated and dull. You can enjoy playing him all you want but don't act like his visuals aren't worn out.
You cannot tell me Megaman is a design that is as generic as a karate gi and bandanna. You say "robot" and you get a million different designs drawn. Megaman is a very distinctive concept of one. You say "karate guy" and you get karate gi and bandanna. Sometimes no bandanna but always karate gi which is 90% of Ryu's look.
Its not even in the same boat. Ryu is a dull character design and he never evolved where every other design blueprint sort of dude (again Superman, Kyo, etc) has. I'm just pointing out something no one wants to admit. Karate Gi and bandanna is played out and then some. Give him something even if its a symbol on his uniform at this point.
wow.
Rice-Eater
Member
Easy their buddy
This.
Ryu's not the most flashiest character around, but it's telling that he's still prominent even after 20+ years.
So while I get that for some folks, Ryu is not a character that they would like, but the dude has earned his stripes.
Slamtastic
Member
Kappa
direct_quote
Member
But why....
Bob Coffee
Member
Hype for roo in smash. The roo and ken smash remixes are pretty good.
shaowebb
Member
So his thing is he's a rock. He never changes and he is the only one who doesn't and that's his appeal? That no matter what else changes or evolves this guy will always be exactly as you remember him?
Still makes his visuals generic as hell, as it was so put earlier, but hey if that is the only reason they're keeping it then whatever. Throw that look on anything else its still generic, but I guess we all got to give Ryu a pass because he was the original. Not like you can add a single symbol to the outfit to show he's hit a new level in his training. Certainly not. That'd ruin everything wouldn't it?
Sorry, but you can argue all you want on this and we both know we'll never change each others minds. I think he's an incredibly dull and outmoded character design visually that needs touching up even if its minor. I'm not asking for ridiculous crap like the tatts and angst makeup above I'm asking for some sign visually of personality, or character growth after all these years. Everyone else wants to nostalgia bomb him because he is "the" karate guy. I find inserting the most generic unevolved character in SF designs in every game dull. Its a visual thing and it won't change for me. Every time he does a crossover I think "oh that dull design" is on the roster. The look doesn't fly for anyone else so I see no reason it gets a pass for Ryu.
He's in smash now. In all his dull karate gi and bandanna glory and as for what it does for the game its fine. He legitimizes the game to stubborn FGC holdouts. He's just in everything though and as such I'd like it if Capcom at least tried to make certain he eventually became interesting visually if he is gonna be the character they always promote with. Makes no sense to change him for a crossover and I hold to it Akuma or Chun would have been better but I realize Ryu is the face and as such we're gonna get him no ifs, ands or buts. Just evolve him soon Capcom. This guy is generic and if he is going to continue being the only SF character you will toss in every crossover then make certain he eventually has more appeal.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Do you think Capcom made the right decision putting Zero (and Tron Bonne) in over Mega Man? Yes or No?
CountBlack
Member
ECT losing them CPT points really killed any hype it could've had. damn.
Actually, I'm not here to change your mind. Just like you'll never change my mind on Ryu...no matter how much you type.
Could Capcom stand to add a little more to his character? Sure. Hell, I welcome it. Just like every medium should add some touches to their characters.
And it is because he's the original that solidifies his position. I've already stated that Ryu's not the flashiest guy around the block and most likely never will be, Just because his design and character is simplistic doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. To you he's dull, but that's only on you and a few other folk.
No offense, but you seem like the type of person who embodies the message of "change for the sake of change."
Edit - It's also funny that you would rather have Akuma over Ryu, seeing as Akuma is not exactly deep as a character himself. Just a edgier version of the stock karate man.
shaowebb
Member
Do you not understand what I said? Yes or no? I said robot templates are different every time you say "draw me a robot". You say karate guy and its Ryu's white gi and black belt with or without a bandanna.
What I said was your comparison makes no sense and that Zero didn't make it in because he was more visually appealing than Megaman. Your argument of "ooh hey I got that shaowebb with this one" makes no sense. I say yes and you say then why did we miss Megaman who was less elaborate? I say no and you say "see you want the original less elaborate design".
I say, you are making a thin argument that anyone can see through. Megaman didn't make it in because he was Inafune's baby and they were butthurt over him leaving and began cancelling anything with his name on it. Inafune left oct 29 2010 and Zero was announced Nov 15 2010. Given that Zero was 2 weeks from being completed and out the door with a trailer he couldn't have been cut if they wanted to reasonably and of course he was chosen because he likely only needed a subdivide and slight model touchup of texturesfrom TvC to have him ready to start animating in the new engine. Tron Bonne was announced sep 16th 2010 back when Inafune was still on board and Mega Man Legends 3 was still in the works and getting pushed.
Could Megaman have been coming? Don't know, but since Zero was very little work to get ready and Bonne was there to promote an upcoming title they took priority first. Do I think had Inafune not left he would have made it in? YES.
So my answer to you is they DID NOT put Zero and Tron in over Megaman. They had them done first and Megaman was vetoed after Oct 29th IMO. Your argument of yes/no is invalid because it was never a question of did one get chosen over him. But hey convince yourself its a yes/no question when all it is a thinly veiled attempt to gotcha me. I know my facts. Apples and oranges here. Megaman has way more distinctiveness than a karate gi. Trying to act like he didn't make it in MVC3 though because more elaborate designed Megaman characters existed though is silly and makes no sense.
I embody character growth and having some visual way of telling something about the character. Akuma has a symbol for demon, glowing eyes, and body language that constantly emphasizes he is a character based on bloodlust. Ryu is a void. You get next to nothing off of him other than "karate".
Professor Beef
Banned
This argument kinda falls apart when you remember that SFxT was released in 2012 and had Inafune's blessing with Fat Mega Man.
Is this MK Ryu?
Sorcerer Supreme
Member
What? That's crazy
ShinMaruku
Member
Inafune lost me when he blasted Japan for not changing then he leaves Capcom and make Megaman...
Also I hate Megaman 
well smoothviper is a pretty good player and faust is simple enough for someone new to the series but experienced in fighting games to be a threat with also I-no vs Faust SUCKS for I-no.
shaowebb
Member
Makes more sense than convincing yourself Tron and Zero made it in over Megaman because their art was more elaborate. That makes no sense. Besides Fat Megaman was a troll and at the time Megaman Universe was a thing also slated to promote bad box art Megaman. That was more a way to promote that as well. Felt like it was kept to mock Inafune's creation though.
Folks can like what they want, but as I said...I stand firm on this. A karate gi and bandanna is a visually dull character and you don't get much from it. There is a reason folks stopped using it as a character template by itself. I'd like to see Ryu start getting some more visual evolution. Why folks think that must mean crazy loud shit I don't know, but I think he needs something more. A symbol, different top...something. Even his body language gives away very little personality aside from Karate.
Sorcerer Supreme
Member
I didn't know he played Faust but as someone who also plays I-no I hate that match up.
Professor Beef
Banned
How was it mocking it when even Inafune loved it? You're starting to sound like one of those insane, entitled Mega Man fans now.
I'm starting to empathize on how the sane Sonic fans feel among their entire fanbase.