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[mnz]

In the latest Bloodborne performance analysis by Digital Foundry, we find this interesting quote about its framerate:

And yet something is awry when playing Bloodborne. Its sub-30fps frame-rate drops may be infrequent, but on close analysis the bigger issue here is in its frame-pacing. As it turns out, From Software's implementation of a 30fps cap means that, as promised, we do get an average refresh at that number near-constantly throughout Yarnham city. The problem? As we've seen with the launch builds of Need for Speed: Rivals and Destiny, an incorrect ordering of frames can cause a nasty stuttering to motion.

So Bloodborne achieves its constant 30 fps by using a technique called Frame Pacing, which, by my understanding, hides lower framerates behind doubled frames.

Though its 30fps average is technically correct, Bloodborne often produces two unique frames followed by two duplicates - rather than one after another - creating a perception of frame-rate drops throughout. It's not smooth in motion at all as a result, and frame-time updates swing erratically between 16ms and 66ms

The result are pretty bad. Microstutter and changing input-lag throughout, not something you would actually want in an action game.
I'm wondering why it's even used? Just to get the constant 30 in benchmarks like DF does? That seems like a bad idea. As the article mentions, Destiny and Need for Speed: Rivals had the same problem and it got patched and AMD is apparently the one that came up with it in the first place.

edit:

Something to read about frame pacing in general. http://www.anandtech.com/show/7195/amd-frame-pacing-explorer-cat138/2

edit2:

Not quite. There are still the right number of unique frames in a given span of time that the average framerate is 30, so the game is keeping up just fine. The problem is that some frames stay onscreen the wrong amount of time.

Proper 30 FPS:

1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5

30 FPS with frame pacing issues:

1 1 1 2 3 3 4 5 5 5

Both of these have 5 unique frames in 10/60ths of a second.



Some games do intentionally tear when they start to drop frames. It's actually not a bad strategy if it's implemented well.

Improper frame pacing, on the other hand, is an actual bug.

 

[dark10x]

I'm wondering why it's even used?

Your line of thinking is in error with that line. It's not something to be "used", it's an error in frame delivery consistency. It's a glitch, basically, not an intended effect.

 

[Neuromancer]

Why they didn't just quadruple the repeated frames to achieve 60fps?

 

[bombshell]

So Bloodborne achieves its constant 30 fps by using a technique called Frame Pacing, which, by my understanding, hides lower framerates behind doubled frames.

I don't think this is true.

Destiny for example had frame pacing issues as well, even though it's a 30 fps locked game. Bungie fixed their frame pacing issue, hopefully From do the same with Bloodborne.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

On the PC side, you'll see that most folks and review sites have moved past measuring framerates - it's an archaic way of deeming gameplay smooth. Frame times are inherently much better and providing helpful analysis.

This is different, in that it's duplicating a frame rather than waiting for a newly drawn frame; but it's more support of the notion that "framerate" isn't the end-all deciding factor behind a game's perceived "smoothness."

 

[DryvBy]

Something to read about frame pacing in general. http://www.anandtech.com/show/7195/amd-frame-pacing-explorer-cat138/2

 

[chiliboy]

Your line of thinking is in error with that line. It's not something to be "used", it's an error in frame delivery consistency. It's a glitch, basically, not an intended effect.

Yeah it will probably be patched, the article also states that other games (destiny + NFS) with similar problems got fixed.

However, we have seen both Bungie and EA Gothenburg react to the issue in each case, correcting their games soon after launch. We hope this will be the case for Bloodborne as well.

 

[Ashtar]

Why they didn't just quadruple the repeated frames to achieve 60fps?

Lazy Devs

Spoiler

Sarcasm don't kill me

 

[mnz]

Your line of thinking is in error with that line. It's not something to be "used", it's an error in frame delivery consistency. It's a glitch, basically, not an intended effect.

Well, that makes a lot more sense then. Still surprised it comes out like that.

 

[Senoculum]

Their last three Souls games had framerate problems, but it was never enough to get me off the game. They're no Naughty Dog when it comes to coding magic.

 

[Seanspeed]

Frame pacing is not a technique. It is a measure of the timing of frames. If a game has frame pacing 'issues', it means the timing is bad and results in stutter.

 

[bombshell]

Their last three Souls games had framerate problems, but it was never enough to get me off the game. They're no Naughty Dog when it comes to coding magic.

Just so we're clear, framepacing issue is different than framerate issue.

 

[MrRudiMentary]

Man that sucks. Seems like it's just missing the point of stable 30 frames.

 

[dark10x]

Why they didn't just quadruple the repeated frames to achieve 60fps?

Err, I don't think you understand the situation here.

Let me explain...

On a 60 Hz display, a game running at 60 frames per second will display a new frame once ever second, right? For 30 frames per second, however, each frame must be repeated one. So each new frame will be duplicated once before a new frame is drawn. .

11:22:33:44:55:66 and so on

For twenty frames per second each frame must be appear THREE times

111:222:333:444 etc

So, repeating frames FOUR times would not equal 60fps it would equal 15 frames per second.

Frame pacing issues pop up when delivery is inconsistent

11:2:333:44:555:6:77 etc

You'll still ultimately wind up with the same average frame-rate but frames persist on screen for different lengths leading to the illusion of judder and skipping. It's not a cheat or a hack, it's a glitch and it doesn't help anyone in any way.

 

[BPoole]

That's a shame. That would be pretty jarring to play after playing the past two Souls games in 60fps with no stutter

 

[Dunkley]

So Bloodborne achieves its constant 30 fps by using a technique called Frame Pacing, which, by my understanding, hides lower framerates behind doubled frames.

Nope, frames are just being shown twice if the framerate is lower than the refresh rate, meaning some frames have to fill out refreshes by being shown twice as the game isn't done rendering the next frame while the display already needs one for it's next refresh.

From what I understand, the issue here is that apparently the game might have a new frame ready but for some reason the display still gets to show a duplicate of the last frame when it really doesn't need to.

 

[SpokkX]

so.. basically the game IS 30fps most of the time?

That is good news since it is probably easier to fix the frame-pacing than actual framerate issues

 

[Akronis]

Wolfenstein The New Order has horrible frame pacing on PC. Not sure if this was ever fixed either.

 

[PsihoPerihelion]

I wonder when are games going to start using that new technique called Screen Tearing.

 

[bombshell]

so.. basically the game IS 30fps most of the time?

That is good news since it is probably easier to fix the frame-pacing than actual framerate issues

Yes, Digital Foundry say the actual framerate drops are infrequent and with the worst being down to 24 fps, but the framepacing issue is more constant.

Nothing like Blighttown in Dark Souls lol

 

[Orayn]

Nope frames are just being shown twice if the framerate is lower than the refresh rate, meaning some frames have to fill out refreshes by being shown twice.

The only other option beyond that is show torn frames on those refreshes in case the game isn't Vsync'd.

Not quite. There are still the right number of unique frames in a given span of time that the average framerate is 30, so the game is keeping up just fine. The problem is that some frames stay onscreen the wrong amount of time.

Proper 30 FPS:

1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5

30 FPS with frame pacing issues:

1 1 1 2 3 3 4 5 5 5

Both of these have 5 unique frames in 10/60ths of a second.

I wonder when are games going to start using that new technique called Screen Tearing.

Some games do intentionally tear when they start to drop frames. It's actually not a bad strategy if it's implemented well.

Improper frame pacing, on the other hand, is an actual bug.

 

[mnz]

so.. basically the game IS 30fps most of the time?

That is good news since it is probably easier to fix the frame-pacing than actual framerate issues

I guess that's the part that needs clearing up. Would the measured framerate go down if this gets fixed?

 

[Jigolo]

Did any reviewers have issues with this?

 

[Neff]

Doubled frames is a low framerate, lol

 

[bombshell]

I guess that's the part that needs clearing up. Would the measured framerate go down if this gets fixed?

No.

 

[Derpyduck]

Destiny Alpha had this issue, they fixed it. DF found the same problem with Diablo on PS4 right before it launched and Blizzard enabled a day one patch to fix it. I hope From will fix this quickly because the problem isn't an occasional one. It's constant.

 

[Orayn]

Doubled frames is a low framerate, lol

But there are also "singled" frames that would usually show up as double.

 

[Durante]

Frame pacing is not a technique. It is a measure of the timing of frames. If a game has frame pacing 'issues', it means the timing is bad and results in stutter.

Well, "frame pacing" is also a technique for ensuring proper frame times.

 

[psychotron]

Frame pacing, and other issues that cause stutter is the one thing that is ruining this gen for me. A lot of people don't notice stutter in games so it doesn't get that much attention, but it drives me fucking crazy!!

I know it's not all related to frame pacing, but games so far this gen with stuttering that have bothered me:

-Infamous Second Son
-Thief
-COD: Advanced Warfare
-DMC Remastered (Playing this now. Happens when approaching new areas or sometimes when enemies pop on screen)
-Alien Isolation
-Dying Light (mainly interior areas, like the school)

I can deal with slowdown to a degree, but a fucking stutter....it completely screws me up.

Posted these before in various threads....

Watch when Dante starts running....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdnODsspBP0

Infamous...As you run down the street it gets choppy, presumably from the areas loading. At 1min 21sec you can see it pretty clearly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdBuPoubfOE

 

[Einbroch]

Not quite. Frame pacing still has the right number of unique frames in a given span of time that the average framerate is 30, so the game is keeping up just fine. The problem is that some frames stay onscreen the wrong amount of time.

Proper 30 FPS:

1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5

30 FPS with frame pacing issues:

1 1 1 2 3 3 4 5 5 5

Both of these have 5 unique frames in 1/10th of a second.



Some games do intentionally tear when they start to drop frames. It's actually not a bad strategy if it's implemented well.

Improper frame pacing, on the other hand, is an actual bug.

This clears things up. Thanks for the education.

 

[gruenel]

Did any reviewers have issues with this?

Well many did mention performance issues.

 

[BigDug13]

How does this shit make it through testing without someone figuring it out? This shit is OBVIOUS.

 

[de1irium]

How does this shit make it through testing without someone figuring it out? This shit is OBVIOUS.

Just because the game shipped with it doesn't mean nobody brought it up, or that nobody wants to fix it.

 

[Xpliskin]

This issue can be tricky to debug, especially if it was left to linger.

I'd guess they didn't want to make it right to avoid breaking the tuning.

Iirc the 60fps uncapping had an effect on speed in DS2/1.

They have to be using unorthodox methods to get their collision and timings right.


The other problem is From Software's "fuck the programmers' budgets" type of level design.

Notable example is blighttown.

Hence the upcoming patch.

 

[dan2026]

The load times are a worse problem.
I hope a patch is forthcoming to fix all this shit.

 

[midasmulligan]

Frame pacing, and other issues that cause stutter is the one thing that is ruining this gen for me. A lot of people don't notice stutter in games so it doesn't get that much attention, but it drives me fucking crazy!!

I know it's not all related to frame pacing, but games so far this gen with stuttering that have bothered me:

-Infamous Second Son
-Thief
-COD: Advanced Warfare
-DMC Remastered (Playing this now. Happens when approaching new areas or sometimes when enemies pop on screen)
-Alien Isolation
-Dying Light (mainly interior areas, like the school)

Don't forget DAI and their terrible cut scene micro stutter or whatever the hell that was...

 

[Peltz]

I really like the way Vanquish handled framerate. Even when the game dropped frames, the game simply showed less frames rather than actually slowing down. There was also a shit-ton of screen tearing on Xbox 360, but I still didn't mind it because the action stayed fast, and the controls were rock solid even when the game wasn't rendering 30 fps.

Whatever "solution" Platinum employed for that game's framerate was a really smart one.

 

[cacildo]

So its something like mario kart 8?

 

[Orayn]

So its something like mario kart 8?

IIRC that was a slight but consistent framerate drop. This is like the Destiny alpha/beta where it would get choppy even though it was still averaging 30 FPS.

 

[Derpyduck]

So its something like mario kart 8?

It's far worse than Mario Kart. It's constant, even in the sanctuary where nothing is going on.

 

[mdzapeer]

Wolfenstein The New Order has horrible frame pacing on PC. Not sure if this was ever fixed either.

It was fine when I played through it twice. Dont remember if I used the in-game vsync or from the driver.


I was really excited to play this game, but this kinda dampens the spirits so to speak.

Bloodborne remaster for PS5 heh?

Spoiler

Wish there was a PC version.

 

[panda-zebra]

So its something like mario kart 8?

That game produced a single duplicated frame every, ummm difficult to remember, something like 70 frames or so. Sometimes it was less frequent. I think I checked through a good few minutes worth to confirm at the time.

This is different, it seems more like the measures taken to ensure a locked 30 are actually doing more harm than good and ensuring constant stutters of their own.

It's a bug and most likely fixable via patch, not a measure to mask anything more sinister as the OP kind of suggests.

 

[Durante]

Wolfenstein The New Order has horrible frame pacing on PC. Not sure if this was ever fixed either.

You can generally fix framepacing for pretty much every game on PC using the right external tools.

 

[Timeaisis]

Frame Pacing, from my understanding, is a bug, not a feature.

 

[Orayn]

Frame Pacing, from my understanding, is a bug, not a feature.

As Durante and a few others have said, "frame pacing" is just a general term to describe how long frames stay onscreen. You can have perfect frame pacing where frames always stick around for the intended length, or messed up frame pacing where the timing varies in weird ways. The latter is almost always unintentional.

 

[BigDug13]

Just because the game shipped with it doesn't mean nobody brought it up, or that nobody wants to fix it.

Then the game shouldn't have shipped until it was. Day one buyers continue to get the subpar experience while budget buyers get a superior game next month for cheaper.

 

[Timeaisis]

As Durante and a few others have said, "frame pacing" is just a general term to describe how long frames stay onscreen. You can have perfect frame pacing where frames always stick around for the intended length, or messed up frame pacing where the timing varies in weird ways. The latter is almost always unintentional.

Apologies. I was referring to this case (whatever the name for that may be). Obviously, when we have correct frames being displayed for a correct amount of time, it's fine.

 

[Orayn]

Apologies. I was referring to this case (whatever the name for that may be). Obviously, when we have correct frames being displayed for a correct amount of time, it's fine.

No apologies needed, OP's description is just kind of inaccurate so I thought it was worth clearing up.

 

[GalvoAg]

Then the game shouldn't have shipped until it was. Day one buyers continue to get the subpar experience while budget buyers get a superior game next month for cheaper.

I would rather play it now, it's not like it will be cheaper next month.

 

[trephine]

hope some tard doesn't try to sue them for a dumb reason like they did killzone