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[A Link to the Past]

Here's the thing

Casual player vs. Mew2King in Melee

Casual player vs. Mew2King in Brawl

Casual player plays 50 matches against M2K in each game

Casual player loses 100 times

Brawl didn't make it easier for casual players to be better at the game, Brawl made it easier for competitive players to get really bored so they stop playing. The ones that stick around dominate casual players more easily than ever.

 

[theprodigy]

I'm not saying it will destroy the online community. I'm saying the online community will be dominated by one group of people and not be inclusive, which discourages other groups to keep buying the series and makes the game more niche. NIche games can still have active online communities

.....what exactly do you think is going to happen if Smash Bros suddenly got more hardcore? Do you think its sales will drop? That it won't have as much legs at retail?

 

[KLatin Scelus]

One 7.0 run using Zelda, got 7 new custom moves, 4 of them are her neutral B2.

Collecting customs should be similar to how CDs were in Brawl.
Would have been much less of a hassle to collect that way.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I don't think the masses are having as much trouble as your making it out to be. I've been to countless tournaments, conventions, parties, clubs, etc filled with players who play at a casual level, and they've always had a blast. There's always that one guy in every group that destroys the rest, but that doesn't stop people from having fun. Hell, I've seen people make it a mission to beat that "one guy" while waiting in rotation and have lots of fun in the process.

Yeah, of course. But that happens when it's just that "one guy" and not everyone around you. That's the key difference. And since online play is becoming the dominant form of multiplayer nowadays, its far easier for situations like that to occur. They don't have that trouble right now because communities are more isolated in local only environments and so the differences aren't obvious

 

[Aaronrules380]

Here's the thing

Casual player vs. Mew2King in Melee

Casual player vs. Mew2King in Brawl

Casual player plays 50 matches against M2K in each game

Casual player loses 100 times

Brawl didn't make it easier for casual players to be better at the game, Brawl made it easier for competitive players to get really bored so they stop playing. The ones that stick around dominate casual players more easily than ever.

I'm not talking about the skill gap between low level players and pros. I'm talking about the gap between low level players and mid level players. That's from my experiences online on other fighting games. I doubt there are that many high level SF players either, and I doubt many of them were actively playing online for the 3DS version, but that didn't stop every single person I faced online from completely wrecking me, and I know others have had similar experiences

 

[Aaronrules380]

.....what exactly do you think is going to happen if Smash Bros suddenly got more hardcore? Do you think its sales will drop? That it won't have as much legs at retail?

Honestly I think those would be very real possibilities in the long run

edit: Sorry about triple posting

 

[Stylo]

Yeah, of course. But that happens when it's just that "one guy" and not everyone around you. That's the key difference. And since online play is becoming the dominant form of multiplayer nowadays, its far easier for situations like that to occur. They don't have that trouble right now because communities are more isolated in local only environments and so the differences aren't obvious

That still doesn't fly. I was a ranked player for Brawl and still played an embarrassing amount of Basic Brawl online matches. I had tons of 1v1 and 4 player free for all matches as well as participated in mode where you bet coins and watch a match. I rarely saw one player dominate. I'm an anomaly in the community for having played Basic Brawl, because most either avoided online play altogether or played on allisbrawl. Everything I saw was low and midlevel play.

 

[WrenchNinja]

How's the single player content for this?

 

[Anth0ny]

How's the single player content for this?

Mediocre to bad.

Worse than any other Smash Bros. Even 64 had BTT and Board the Platforms!

 

[Aaronrules380]

That still doesn't fly. I was a ranked player for Brawl and still played an embarrassing amount of Basic Brawl online matches. I had tons of 1v1 and 4 player free for all matches as well as participated in mode where you bet coins and watch a match. I rarely saw one player dominate.

Again, this is because people who get dominated stop playing online pretty quickly. Also, I feel like most of the more casual players gave up on Brawl's online right away because it was terrible and they weren't so hungry for matches that they felt the need to deal with it

 

[A Link to the Past]

Mediocre to bad.

Worse than any other Smash Bros. Even 64 had BTT and Board the Platforms!

So Home Run Contest isn't even good? :/

 

[Azure J]

Honestly I think those would be very real possibilities in the long run

edit: Sorry about triple posting

Melee was by far the single best selling game on the Gamecube with a stupid attach rate (something like 7 million copies to 21 million GCNs worldwide at the end of the gen). The Smash series would sell regardless of its game play content just because of all the Nintendo fan service included. The idea that the game possessing advanced techniques (which were never advertised, taught or known of) leading to a poor sell through is an argument that is as fallacious as it is sadly common.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

How's the single player content for this?

You've just got Classic, All-Star, and Smash Run against bots. No Event Matches or Target Smash, so yeah, it's not the greatest SP adventure.

However there's lots of Custom Moves, Trophies, Costumes for the Mii Fighters, and other unlockables though so you should have plenty to do, especially with so many characters.

 

[Crayolan]

How's the single player content for this?

Classic Mode, All-Star Mode, Smash Run, Target Smash, Home Run Contest, and Trophy Rush. I think that's all there is aside from the miscellaneous menus like music/trophies/etc.

Edit: Multi-Man Melee has returned as well, forgot about that.

 

[MrSaturn99]

I'm preeeeeeeeeeetty dang excited for Smash Run. I just wish it had online. :/

 

[Aaronrules380]

Melee was by far the single best selling game on the Gamecube with a stupid attach rate (something like 7 million copies to 21 million GCNs worldwide at the end of the gen). The Smash series would sell regardless of its game play content just because of all the Nintendo fan service included. The idea that the game possessing advanced techniques (which were never advertised, taught or known of) leading to a poor sell through is an argument that is as fallacious as it is sadly common.

Melee was also a local only game where most of the competitive skill set were hidden enough that few people ever encountered it. Times have changed. Online is a thing. The internet is a much bigger thing as well.

 

[Item Box]

Mediocre to bad.

Worse than any other Smash Bros. Even 64 had BTT and Board the Platforms!

....what

After hearing about no proper single player mode, I was going in the whole time thinking these were, at the very least, still present. holy shit

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

I like how Smash 4 is already a dumbed down, non-competitive, casual-centric game when it's not even out outside of Japan yet.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Again, this is because people who get dominated stop playing online pretty quickly. Also, I feel like most of the more casual players gave up on Brawl's online right away because it was terrible and they weren't so hungry for matches that they felt the need to deal with it

A good raking system would fix this. Low level players generally shouldn't be matched against pros (excluding situations like pros making new accounts, first week of release, etc). A player getting utterly dominated online is a failure of the matchmaking system. This goes doubly for 1v1 games where blame can't be placed on teammates.

 

[Spainkiller]

I wish Nintendo would just give the Melee crowd exactly what they want so they'd finally shut up.

- Melee in HD
- Rebalance characters so the game isn't dominated by the 5 fastest characters
- Online play
- Have a "neutral" version of every stage

Basicallly SSBM HD Remix.

I know they'll never do it though.

I hate the competitive Melee crowd, but man, that would make me rock hard.

 

[SirPainsalot]

You've just got Classic, All-Star, and Smash Run against bots. No Event Matches or Target Smash, so yeah, it's not the greatest SP adventure.

However there's lots of Custom Moves, Trophies, Costumes for the Mii Fighters, and other unlockables though so you should have plenty to do, especially with so many characters.

No event matches and break the targets? What the hell? They better be in the wii u version

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Mediocre to bad.

Worse than any other Smash Bros. Even 64 had BTT and Board the Platforms!

Would you not say that Smash Run is good enough to at least put it on par with 64? I mean that mode seems pretty fun

No event matches and break the targets? What the hell? They better be in the wii u version

They're sort of incorporated in Smash Run. You've got special matches, "events" occurring, and I think there's a Break the Target minigame as well. No clue if it's a good substitute, though, I've yet to play it.

 

[woodland]

Melee was also a local only game where most of the competitive skill set were hidden enough that few people ever encountered it. Times have changed. Online is a thing. The internet is a much bigger thing as well.

If you legitimately think that the community becoming more connected, having miiverse and a built-in browser to learn from, along with a MUCH wider pool of players to assist in skill based matching is going to hurt the population of a game that is incredibly far from hardcore, I'm amazed.

 

[Tan]

Hoo boy, this thread really took a nosedive.

This is the most mild disagreement I've seen in this thread.

 

[PKGaming]

You've just got Classic, All-Star, and Smash Run against bots. No Event Matches or Target Smash, so yeah, it's not the greatest SP adventure.

However there's lots of Custom Moves, Trophies, Costumes for the Mii Fighters, and other unlockables though so you should have plenty to do, especially with so many characters.

Jeez...the Wii U version better have more stuff. I still think it's stupid that Sakurai got rid of a story mode because he didn't want the cutscenes shown online. So what if they are? He'd seriously rather the game have less appealing single player content than have his cutscenes shown on Youtube....?

 

[Aaronrules380]

A good raking system would fix this. Low level players generally shouldn't be matched against pros. A player getting utterly dominated online is a failure of the matchmaking system. This goes doubly for 1v1 games where blame can't be placed on teammates.

My experience has taught me that ranking systems won't necessarily help because people can easily get dominated in their first few matches before they've even been ranked. It's a nice sentiment, but the time it takes before it can actually have any impact makes it harder to pull off successfully

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

How's the single player content for this?

Hahahahaha



..single player?!
very bad

 

[-Horizon-]

Have you ever tried a 2DS? I found it to be the most comfortable of all three models, too bad it doesn't have 3D, and the screens are so small too.

But well, I guess I'll send my XL to Nintendo for repair then sell it once it returns. I'm gonna miss it ;_; hopefully the Smash XL (if I find it, of course) can fill it's place in my heart

I actually have not (I don't think I've seen them on display in the stores I've been to). But I want a system I can still fit in my pockets.
I'd be surprised if the Smash XL is already sold out, I don't think its limited like that special Pikachu one.

 

[Aaronrules380]

If you legitimately think that the community becoming more connected, having miiverse and a built-in browser to learn from, along with a MUCH wider pool of players to assist in skill based matching is going to hurt the population of a game that is incredibly far from hardcore, I'm amazed.

The issue being that most people don't want to learn in the first place. Having tools available doesn't really change that

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Jeez...the Wii U version better have more stuff. I still think it's stupid that Sakurai got rid of a story mode because he didn't want the cutscenes shown online. So what if they are? He'd seriously rather the game have less appealing single player content than have his cutscenes shown on Youtube....?

I feel like that quote was probably not translated well enough. I think he just meant he didn't want a "Story Mode" being the primary way to unlock the characters like it was in Brawl, as most people didn't care for it and just spoiled themselves anyway by watching all the videos.

 

[Stylo]

I like how Smash 4 is already a dumbed down, non-competitive, casual-centric game when it's not even out outside of Japan yet.

No one is saying that. Way to blow things out of proportion. There's no doubt that certain aspects of the game are dumbed down. The extent to which it is yet to be determined, but no one has said it's an "uncompetitive, casual-centric game". Also, FYI, a ton of people have had the import version since it came out.

 

[PKGaming]

I'm preeeeeeeeeeetty dang excited for Smash Run. I just wish it had online. :/

From what I heard from Gamexplain, it's kind of a let down. You spend 5 minutes leveling your character only to participate in a 1 minute match or event. You can't even interact with other players on the field or change up the settings. That actually sounds worse than City Trial to me. Being able to mess with your opponents during the collection process was a big part of what made City Trial so fun. In Smash Run, it feels a lot more disconnected. Then again, I haven't played it yet, but it's not sounding too good.

 

[KittenMaster]

No one is saying that. Way to blow things out of proportion. There's no doubt that certain aspects of the game are dumbed down. The extent to which it is yet to be determined, but no one has said it's an "uncompetitive, casual-centric game". Also, FYI, a ton of people have had the import version since it came out.

Some people on Twitter were saying this, not necessarily people in the thread.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I want to make it clear that I have nothing against the competitive community. I think it's awesome that it exists and that it's really fun to watch even if I couldn't pull off anything close to what those guys do. These arguements don't reflect my own sentiments as much as how I feel the average player responds to these things. I think people are mistaken if they think the only people seeking instant gratification from games are the mobile casual people. The majority of console gamers want it as well. They want high production values, and quick easy fun.

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

There's no doubt that certain aspects of the game are dumbed down.

Like what?

 

[Stylo]

I want to make it clear that I have nothing against the competitive community. I think it's awesome that it exists and that it's really fun to watch even if I couldn't pull off anything close to what those guys do. These arguements don't reflect my own sentiments as much as how I feel the average player responds to these things. I think people are mistaken if they think the only people seeking instant gratification from games are the mobile casual people. The majority of console gamers want it as well. They want high production values, and quick easy fun.

I felt you were clear enough. If the average player would get so easily discouraged, they probably weren't going to stick around regardless. They would move on to the next big thing.

Like what?

When you throw someone, the knockback is so strong you can't follow up with a move and hurts the potential for combos.

 

[Azure J]

Melee was also a local only game where most of the competitive skill set were hidden enough that few people ever encountered it. Times have changed. Online is a thing. The internet is a much bigger thing as well.

OK, I'm amused.

Find me three examples of games having underlying advanced mechanics that led to a poorer critical reception or sell through once said mechanics were discovered. Bonus points if you find ones that have an online component.

 

[MrSaturn99]

From what I heard from Gamexplain, it's kind of a let down. You spend 5 minutes leveling your character only to participate in a 1 minute match or event. You can't even interact with other players on the field or change up the settings. That actually sounds worse than City Trial to me. Being able to mess with your opponents during the collection process was a big part of what made City Trial so fun. In Smash Run, it feels a lot more disconnected. Then again, I haven't played it yet, but it's not sounding too good.

Not being able to change the settings is sort of a letdown, but I can deal with the non-interaction in exchange for the music/enemy fanservice (I typically isolated myself in City Trial, to provide some perspective).

It's Smash Bros with City Trial elements...can't go wrong with that, imo.

 

[SmithnCo]

How's the single player content for this?

Fairly boring, the challenges are easy and the modes get old especially if you are going for customs. MP is where it's at.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I felt you were clear enough. If the average player would get so easily discouraged, they probably weren't going to stick around regardless.

That depends on what you mean by stick around? Play it constantly for years? Probably not. Play it every now and then or for an intense period near launch? I think many of those players would. And as long as they liked it enough that they'd buy another iteration in a few years, or at the very least wouldn't resell it right away, to the guys making the game it doesn't make that big a difference. It's nice to have super devoted fans, but devotion doesn't pay any bills

 

[JediLink]

Melee was also a local only game where most of the competitive skill set were hidden enough that few people ever encountered it. Times have changed. Online is a thing. The internet is a much bigger thing as well.

I don't know if you saw it the first time so I'm just going to post it again.

 

[Stylo]

OK, I'm amused.

Find me three examples of games having underlying advanced mechanics that led to a poorer critical reception or sell through once said mechanics were discovered. Bonus points if you find ones that have an online component.

Better yet, League of Legends has a bigger fanbase than Smash Bros. AND is a much more complex game!

 

[Hatchtag]

Not being able to change the settings is sort of a letdown, but I can deal with the non-interaction in exchange for the music/enemy fanservice (I typically isolated myself in City Trial, to provide some perspective).

It's Smash Bros with City Trial elements...can't go wrong with that, imo.

I loved City Trial, but I hate Smash Run. There's no interaction with other players till the end, and the events don't usually change enough. Also, it's combat is like the SSE, which is fucking terrible.
Seriously, Smash Run contains about 20 minutes worth of fun and that's it, imo.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Mediocre to bad.

Worse than any other Smash Bros. Even 64 had BTT and Board the Platforms!

... But not All-Star Mode, Multi-Man, the entire trophy system or even if it's flawed, Smash Run. Your two examples are literally the only thing SSB64 has that 3DS doesn't, and they're both basically (very fun) minigames.

It's definitely worse than Melee and Brawl's single-player offerings though.

OK, I'm amused.

Find me three examples of games having underlying advanced mechanics that led to a poorer critical reception or sell through once said mechanics were discovered. Bonus points if you find ones that have an online component.

Parrying was a bit of a put off for casual SF2 fans in SFIII, but I'm not sure how well that example works in this context since no online-mode and it wasn't really a mechanic that had to be 'discovered'.

I loved City Trial, but I hate Smash Run. There's no interaction with other players till the end, and the events don't usually change enough. Also, it's combat is like the SSE, which is fucking terrible.
Seriously, Smash Run contains about 20 minutes worth of fun and that's it, imo.

Okay, now this I seriously wasn't aware of. Really shitty limitation along with no online, which wasn't communicated well at all before release.

 

[Aaronrules380]

OK, I'm amused.

Find me three examples of games having underlying advanced mechanics that led to a poorer critical reception or sell through once said mechanics were discovered. Bonus points if you find ones that have an online component.

It isn't about critical reception since most game critics are more invested in games than the average player. And its an effect that isn't immediate. It might not affect Smash 4, but it could easily influence people's decisions on whether or not to get any future games (and given that the wii u version is a future game, that's a pretty big deal in this scenario). And it might not sell poorly, but it could sell much worse. Name any other fighting game series that has a single entry with half the sales of any smash bros game. They have a niche, but Smash has shown to go far beyond the niche other fighting games have had

Also the issue is actually more complicated mechanics that are obvious or common and don't need to be discovered, but aren't intuitive to beginners

 

[SmithnCo]

City Trial was great because you could dick around with others while doing stuff in the city, Smash doesn't have that element going for it. Maybe if you could actually meet people within the maze and take their shit.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I don't know if you saw it the first time so I'm just going to post it again.

Problem being that casual players still like one v ones, and many casuals like to turn items off and play on more balanced stages as well some of the time. Being casual in smash doesn't necessarily mean wanting to always play free for alls with items on any stage

 

[PKGaming]

I loved City Trial, but I hate Smash Run. There's no interaction with other players till the end, and the events don't usually change enough. Also, it's combat is like the SSE, which is fucking terrible.
Seriously, Smash Run contains about 20 minutes worth of fun and that's it, imo.

Kinda sad considering how much they've been advertising Smash Run too. If it was just a side thing, I don't think it'd be as much of a let down.

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

When you throw someone, the knockback is so strong you can't follow up with a move and hurts the potential for combos.

Is that it? That doesn't seem dumbed down to me. Just a change.

 

[EulaCapra]

I don't know why they don't allow you to adjust the time for Smash Run.

Even when it was first announced I balked at "5 Minutes of Smash Run plus 1 Minute of Random!" So you're picking up power ups for 5 whole minutes for a 1 minute mini-game which you don't know will pop up. 5 minutes. That's just awful planning for a mode that includes so many NPC's not see anywhere else.