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True Detective - McConaughey/Harrelson crime series - S2 starts June 21st
- Thread starter Cornballer
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Had time to think over the finale (glad my Audrey prediction turned out false, so I was unable to predict it).
But now that I think about it, the last three episodes when taken as a whole to me showcased a pretty severe drop in quality for the show. The issue was that early in the season, lots of details were "implied", and the quality of the writing was allowed to shine in just how expertly one could gain information about these characters based on all the little details and even things they didn't say. Very early on for example it was easy to predict something had happened between Rust and Maggie.
The problem became after the switch over to the current time. Then, we had to face the Maggie episode which was basically a 'who-didn't-see-this-coming' time waster because anyone could have known this was what caused the break up, and instead of the time being better preserved for things that actually would have made for compelling TV, we had to see the obvious machinations of Maggie result in the obvious conclusion. Things started to get spelled out, and not always in the most entertaining fashion.
The second to last episode had a lot of tense moments, but again it was the same. We knew Rust and Marty would get back together to try to track down the criminal. We knew through the carefully laid foundation a lot of the overarching details, and again we had to go through the motions until those boxes were checked. Insights into the characters began to get diminished, second faction to detail orientation. There were interesting elements, and again it wasn't a bad episode, but it just is about momentum loss.
The final episode though to me was shocking. To me, the show's quality really took a nosedive, like a better shot version of one of those monster-of-the-week shows. Every move was telegraphed, the echoing voice through the hallways cheesy as hell, there were no details that were even remotely insightful or interesting. It seems as if they had played all their chips, and we were just left we seeing the toy unwind itself.
But what really made me actively dislike the ending was what happened with Rust. Now, maybe I'm interpreting it wrong. But when Rust started talking about what he had seen, that he felt his family there, and seemed so genuine about it... this to me is something that never could have happened for him. He would have immediately dismissed the experience for what it was, and continued to live a relatively cynical existence. It undermined so much of the development of the character, and for me that was frustrating to see. Maybe someone has a different interpretation of these events that would make it seem better though
But now that I think about it, the last three episodes when taken as a whole to me showcased a pretty severe drop in quality for the show. The issue was that early in the season, lots of details were "implied", and the quality of the writing was allowed to shine in just how expertly one could gain information about these characters based on all the little details and even things they didn't say. Very early on for example it was easy to predict something had happened between Rust and Maggie.
The problem became after the switch over to the current time. Then, we had to face the Maggie episode which was basically a 'who-didn't-see-this-coming' time waster because anyone could have known this was what caused the break up, and instead of the time being better preserved for things that actually would have made for compelling TV, we had to see the obvious machinations of Maggie result in the obvious conclusion. Things started to get spelled out, and not always in the most entertaining fashion.
The second to last episode had a lot of tense moments, but again it was the same. We knew Rust and Marty would get back together to try to track down the criminal. We knew through the carefully laid foundation a lot of the overarching details, and again we had to go through the motions until those boxes were checked. Insights into the characters began to get diminished, second faction to detail orientation. There were interesting elements, and again it wasn't a bad episode, but it just is about momentum loss.
The final episode though to me was shocking. To me, the show's quality really took a nosedive, like a better shot version of one of those monster-of-the-week shows. Every move was telegraphed, the echoing voice through the hallways cheesy as hell, there were no details that were even remotely insightful or interesting. It seems as if they had played all their chips, and we were just left we seeing the toy unwind itself.
But what really made me actively dislike the ending was what happened with Rust. Now, maybe I'm interpreting it wrong. But when Rust started talking about what he had seen, that he felt his family there, and seemed so genuine about it... this to me is something that never could have happened for him. He would have immediately dismissed the experience for what it was, and continued to live a relatively cynical existence. It undermined so much of the development of the character, and for me that was frustrating to see. Maybe someone has a different interpretation of these events that would make it seem better though
Hey man, Marty put in work to pay his debt. He went through all those old files by hand that were stashed away.
:lol, sounds like a plan.
Another gorgeously shot show that is available on Netflix for everyone now is Rectify, which I've probably recommended a hundred times by now on GAF. Watch it people.
thecouncil
Banned
A 20 year investigation finally cracked by some insane assumption that a person would paint their ears while painting a house. Oh well. Whatever.
I understand that it could be attributed to Rust's obsession, and it was the most intense way to build up the episode so it worked.
I thought the green ears = headphones from tractor theory was pretty good.
My mom would remember those details. Guaranteed. And then consider how slow and uneventful that old woman's life probably was.
At least she didn't remember the name. If she had, I'd have to agree with you. People don't remember names nearly as well as they do face scarring or how much they paid for something.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
It's all spelled out, nothing hard to understand. Did you malfunction?
Blood Meridian would actually work best as a miniseries I think. Can't pack that whole dirge into 3 hours, need a full 8 or so.
I can agree with a lot of this. I guess for me it didn't ruin the show or anything, but those are definitely some weak aspects of the show.
And like I said before,I think having 10 episodes instead of 8 would have benefited the narrative a lot.
Great post. I personally loved the overall series. But I pretty much agree with you that there were issues with the writing going into the end. It wasn't just the finale. And I think you are spot on that the transition into the current timeline was a bit jarring, and didn't have enough time to really be fleshed out (especially where the characters are concerned). And yeah, totally agree with you about the finale. The case parts felt like cliche/horror movie trope. The killer, the house. The set design. Rust going through the layer. All of it felt very telegraphed and cliche.
However, I ended up loving the resolutions for both Rust and Marty. Even if I feel that, on some level it was kind of forced (or not given enough room to breathe). Again, I think that had to do with the time jump and the transition. How quickly they ran with Rust and Marty reuniting. Etc. I think I ended up liking the ending a bit more than you, because I was so behind these characters. I loved their dialogue, and growth (even if again, it was problematic how they got there). But yeah, the case portion of the finale was definitely weak. And in comparison to the rest of the show, I agree the quality dropped.
I disagree with you about Rust though. I don't think his ending was spiritual or out of left field. I think ultimately, Rust realized that the love for his daughter and her love for him, was a tangible thing. As we about to die, he remembered those things, and it gave his life meaning. Now, if Rust was always the way he was (even prior to his daughter), then you would have a point. But Rust is human, and much of Rust's views were driven by his daughter's death. So I found nothing wrong with him realizing that what he loved, gave his life meaning.
What an incredible finish. Carcosa sequence was impeccable, I had goosebumps all the way through. The entire show was incredibly eerie and atmospheric, but even among all these episodes Carcosa was on a completely another level. "Take off your mask" was chilling, I'm glad I didn't watch trailers before.
This was a case where I really liked and appreciated that the ending played it straight. No ass-pulls, no ridiculous twists, no dumb revelations. Everything made perfect sense and it was consistent with the previous episode and was, well, the perfect way to cap off the season.
Well, there's one downside. There's at least a year and a half of waiting for the next season. Mad Men will be over by the time season 2 airs! So much time left. Despite it's short length I really grew attached to the series.
This was a case where I really liked and appreciated that the ending played it straight. No ass-pulls, no ridiculous twists, no dumb revelations. Everything made perfect sense and it was consistent with the previous episode and was, well, the perfect way to cap off the season.
Well, there's one downside. There's at least a year and a half of waiting for the next season. Mad Men will be over by the time season 2 airs! So much time left. Despite it's short length I really grew attached to the series.
Anton Sugar
Member
I'd loooove a Blood Meridian-esque True Detective season.
ReadingRambo
Member
I took it as justa nother thread they were chasing that just happened to pan out. In a vacuum it's a bit silly, but that's hardly the first lead they chased. Just the one that worked out.
Interesting take.
I was down on eps 6/7, but i liked the hopeful finale. I dunno, in character or not, it hit me hard.
brianjones
Member
i think sepinwall mentioned it but the show lost something when we caught up with the future and we weren't getting those interviews anymore
the present i should say
the present i should say
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
A little.
I don't think it undermined his character, I think it evolved his character. He's spent the better part of twenty years basically turning himself into a hollow shell so we wouldn't have to really deal with the death of his daughter. It's only once he's on the brink of death and having near-death experience that he's feeling her again, but not in a religious or spiritual way. He even says it's physics, not God or whatever. But the thing is, he's finally coming to terms with the idea that he is still alive, even though all he wants is to go to the 'darkness' where his daughter and father are. But that he's back on this plane of existence, maybe there is something worth living for before he can go to that darkness again. I thought it evolved him, because he's finally coming to terms with something he's almost denied for over twenty years, and he's having that breakdown cause he feels that love again that he hasn't felt for so long. It left him shell-shocked, but it also brought him back into the world a bit, made the world a bit brighter.
As for the final confrontation with Errol and Rust, I loved it. Both Rust and Errol were playing a part in a narrative, and they knew it. Rust wanted to take down Errol before checking out, and Errol wanted to die so that he could ascend. They're aware of continuing down this spiral do it's ultimate conclusion, where the flat circle finally ends.
Edit: That's just my interpretation of it. I don't want to invalidate yours. You're entitled to your view, and there's merit to that. But I feel like Rust was always heading to this. He eschewed most human contact outside of Marty because he just couldn't deal with the world anymore, at least not in a positive manner. But in the end, there's a sense of relief and closure in that... both he and Marty have a chance to redeem themselves and reenter the world.
For me, what I take away from the first season is this.
1. Cary Fukunaga is incredibly talented and each episode looks amazing.
2. The split time storytelling method worked better for the episodes set largely in the past, less well for the moments in the present when everything implied had to start being spelled out.
3. That the foundation is certainly there and the team is talented enough to land a true classic once they get the right pieces in place for one of their seasons. It's a good start, I'm not sad I watched it, but I definitely only really loved 5 out of the 8 episodes. Which is still good!
creationtheory
Member
I agreed with all of this post but especially this last part.
trab pu kcip
Member
even though I also had my problems with the final scene, he's just human bro. and humans are weak and emotional at times, even the most cynical ones (maybe especially them)
but one thing I agree with: the echoing voice...too much carnival. at that point I wasn't quite sure if he was a wizard or had a megaphone or was a wizard with a megaphone.
Kadayi
Banned
When they went into that goddamn nightmare fuelled labyrinth and the shit went down I honestly thought neither of them was coming out save in a body bag. Totally was expecting the final scene to just be come death fever dream tbh. Glad it wasn't.
Also I don't see it that Rust necessarily had a religious experience at the end, more that through almost dying he was suddenly and abruptly reconnected to his humanity. Something that had been lost to him for many many years. The sadness for him was realizing this, but I think Marty levelled him out and you kind of think that for both of them there's some future going forward.
That wheel chair scene was hard man. All the feels.
Also fuck those begrudging chodes at The Atlantic. What a bunch of sour pusses.
Also I don't see it that Rust necessarily had a religious experience at the end, more that through almost dying he was suddenly and abruptly reconnected to his humanity. Something that had been lost to him for many many years. The sadness for him was realizing this, but I think Marty levelled him out and you kind of think that for both of them there's some future going forward.
That wheel chair scene was hard man. All the feels.
Also fuck those begrudging chodes at The Atlantic. What a bunch of sour pusses.
Yeah, I agree there. We were used to a certain narrative structure and complexity and without the interviews the show suffered a bit.
Some of these complaints are absurd, though. Why wouldn't Rust change in the moment when people are most sensitive to change; ie, nearly dying, entering a coma, and emerging alive.
Anton Sugar
Member
I did giggle a bit at the "Freeze!" "...no!" *runs away* part. Like a kid running away from a parent.
brianjones
Member
i was like does he have an intercom set up in carcosa?
would have made more sense if he was drugged
i also thought steve the drunk's reaction to the video was unintentionally funny... the way the camera showed the boat from the distance
Rust's nihilistic worldview was always signaled as being over the top. It contains/ed truths, sure. But it was also in part a defense mechanism. A way of separating himself from everything after the loss of his daughter and the dissolution of his marriage. All the ending dialogue signified to me was that, having solved this small case once and for all, after passing into the heart of darkness and returning, after literally staring into the void-- he could feel again. He no longer views humanity as a blight, just as an evolving race still beholden to so much evil. His ending only shows that he's moved past the limitations of his nihilism and recognized that there are paths better than resigning the world to darkness. Instead you can live and fight for meaning. "...existence is an act of rebellion," and all. It's not a rejection of his personal philosophy or a heel-turn, but an evolution.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Exactly.
It's a man who has lived so long in darkness finally looking up and seeing stars for the first time in a long time.
Sadly, there is something for me too here. This is the same guy who said "...all your love, all your hate, all your memory, all your pain—it was all the same thing. It was all the same dream. A dream that you had inside a locked room." to believe he actually believed he felt his daughters love waiting for him somewhere beyond consciousness, it's a tough sell. Because either you're saying what he thought before was bullshit, or that he needed to change. I don't know. Seems inconsistent.
But he was still in shock.
Perhaps. But I'm not sure where that turn occurred. Even in the hospital bed he seemed pretty despondent about it all. Maybe just admitted to Marty what he really felt for once broke down his barrier.
trab pu kcip
Member
did anyone else think the dead body they found earlier looked an awful lot like rust? especially since most of the victims before were female I was a bit confused. but maybe my eyes just played tricks on me.
It's not about change so much as the abruptness of it. Yes, he had a near death experience. But this is a guy who literally lived on the edge of life for years as a undercover. At any moment his life could have been forfeit: he even once joked how the stakes were lower now since he'd just get a bullet to the head, not tortured.
Every single moment of Rust's character had to that moment been about his nihilistic philosophy, every element of his life leading to inform that moment. It wasn't just the death of his kid, but the crimes he saw, the predictable pattern of human behavior. It goes to the very basics of what he felt humanity was all about. To have an incredibly convenient near death experience where he feels his families presence (whatever it was), and then to have his view of the world change so profoundly due to it just didn't gel whatsoever with whom I had grown to know. It didn't seem to make sense that this is the conclusion he would arrive at. I felt it was the wrong thing to do.
If I felt there was a series of actions that naturally led to his growing into this change, I would have more readily accepted it. I just did not think given what they had just experienced that Rust would so easily cast his cynicism aside. It didn't feel natural.
Every single moment of Rust's character had to that moment been about his nihilistic philosophy, every element of his life leading to inform that moment. It wasn't just the death of his kid, but the crimes he saw, the predictable pattern of human behavior. It goes to the very basics of what he felt humanity was all about. To have an incredibly convenient near death experience where he feels his families presence (whatever it was), and then to have his view of the world change so profoundly due to it just didn't gel whatsoever with whom I had grown to know. It didn't seem to make sense that this is the conclusion he would arrive at. I felt it was the wrong thing to do.
If I felt there was a series of actions that naturally led to his growing into this change, I would have more readily accepted it. I just did not think given what they had just experienced that Rust would so easily cast his cynicism aside. It didn't feel natural.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Time is a flat circle.
Errol is the Yellow King.
He exists in a sphere. Outside of time.
The dead body was Rust.
Rust was Past Rust.
He has already done everything before and he will do it again.
He's trapped in a time loop.
I got to disagree here. There's nothing necessarily wrong with a character's point of view evolving over time, even in increments. That's what we saw here -- not a large, grand movement from a nihilist to an eternal optimist, but a small glimpse of someone who maybe now believes in believes in some form of good in people. Hell, even in 2012 when Rust finally asks Marty how he's doing -- sincerely -- that's the first time we ever see him give out an olive branch of true empathy towards someone else.
It's completely realistic for his cynical demeanor to be challenged and changed. That doesn't necessarily mean it has -- but I completely buy that he could have a new, more positive outlook on life after working with Marty and coming to a point of forgiveness with him.
Extra Sauce
Member
They've been chasing that man for nearly 20 years, you think they're going to let him run away?
plasmawave
Banned
Anyone thought the final episode turned into a cliched suspense/mystery show?
thecouncil
Banned
I need Mythbusters to tell me if you can survive being stabbed in the stomach, have it be twisted and then be picked up by the knife. I don't know who they're going to test that on though.
It was a really quality episode of Law & Order: Criminal Intent.
It was a really quality episode of Law & Order: Criminal Intent.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
trab pu kcip
Member
hahah yeah. strangely enough I found it oddly discomforting, just because of that. added a lot of degenerateness and unpredictability to his character.
I'm sure someone can. Some people can survive falling off a 30 story building. Some people are just lucky as fuck
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Ha, awesome.
trab pu kcip
Member
call me crazy, but these were exactly my first thoughts when I saw that body!
How he explains it sounds absolutely jarring. He doesn't outright say God exists or something along those lines, but he's expressing what he felt in that moment. It stuck and made an impression. You can't be one hundred percent sure you wouldn't be second guessing yourself in a similar situation. It doesn't need to be some slowly evolving world view to feel right with the character. Worked for me just fine. Just says to me, he's hopeful that he could be in contact with them again, regardless.
Extra Sauce
Member
Physics don't work the same way inside of Carcosa.
If the show hadn't been produced in advance, I would have guessed the writers changed it because too many people predicted the headset thing.
Rust went into this thinking that death was the solution to his pointless existence. He truly believed that what was at the end of this case, was his death. He welcomed it, and expected it. As he was literally dying and slipping out of consciousness, the things he repressed (such as how hurt he was over his daughters death, his repression of how much he loved her, how much she loved him), Rust was able to finally let go and accept that despite his world views, life did have meaning for him because of these experiences.
I don't really see why that's so far fetched, or abrupt. Rust could still accept there is no afterlife. No God. No real point to existence. But I don't see why he can't believe in these things, and also hold on to these experiences, and personally feel it gives him meaning on a personal level, even if it doesn't change the fact that his existence is a mistake. Even if you buy into the view that our species is a mistake, you can still give yourself meaning.
Net_Wrecker
Member
I don't think 10 episodes would've helped at all. 8 was the right point for a show with one writer and one director. If I'm being completely honest, it already felt like they were overreaching with 8 episodes, and any more 2012 scenes would've only done harm.
thecouncil
Banned
I'm sure someone can. Some people can survive falling off a 30 story building. Some people are just lucky as fuck
Haha. Yeah, I guess there's always a chance. Rust was unkillable, after all.
Anyway, another question: Why was his sleeve bleeding? Where was that flow of blood coming from?
Great gif but some idiot posted in one of the other threads yesterday and ruined the ending for me. Think it was the Arrow thread. Thanks for that.
Another fantastic episode. Both actors were brilliant all season but they really shone in this episode. Great final scene.
Yep show was spoiled for me too from some other GAF thread. I was a tad annoyed and could see how some would be really pissed.
`Yep, I thought it was downright bad.
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