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[Freedom Gate Co.]

It's an estimate from a market research firm. We rely on those all the time when it's NPD behind the numbers.

.

For NA, because they actually have contracts and tracking with the vast majority of retailers. These are claims for WW sales figures, come on dude.

No, I've given my opinion on this.

You can't have an opinion on something that isn't there. You even used debunked EA numbers to justify JPR. JPR being around for years doesn't mean they have reliable GAMING numbers, especially since they don't even have reliable NA numbers and that's their home base. That's why US companies don't usually use them.

You're literally trying to make things up to justify believing these numbers and YOU STILL haven't answered the question of why you picked THESE NUMBERS and not all the other times rumored numbers came up from other sources. This whole thing is crazy and you keep dodging that question. Most likely because you really don't have any real reason to believe these numbers over the others.

To sell below 30 million that would mean that 80%+ of the xbox one sales are in NA and we have information to know that's nonsense. There has been not strong or decent selling country that has collapsed for that to make any sense either. The number is nonsense, no analyst believes it, no gaming company believes it, no one who has access to the top trackers believes it, so why do you believe it?

You're either trolling or going crazy out of desperation. One of the two

 

[Jigsaah]

I'm glad we are all using the same facts now. I'd also say that you should stop saying Sony has GaiKai. It's PSNOW, it's not GaiKai. Sony after buying that company has added their own engineers to that streaming sector and made it into something of their own.

I realize that. I guess I'm calling it Gaikai because people don't associate PSNow with cloud computing generally. I suppose it's one in the same but it wasn't until recently that I realized this fact and I have a PS4 and subscribe to PSNow. Like Microsoft has "Azure". Most people know this. "Google Cloud". Amazon has "Amazon Web Services". I suppose me calling Sony's Gaikai is because I'm not familiar with an overall cloud service. I mean it's confusing.

I did look it up and it looks like they have "Sony Cloud Media" but I'm not sure if it's meant to do gaming. Though I'll admit, Azure, Google and Amazon's services aren't exclusively for gaming either. So it's possible this Sony Cloud Media" could be used for that but maybe they aren't ready to present it in this manner yet?

 

[iconmaster]

Okay, any of these would be compelling points:

JPR being around for years doesn't mean they have reliable GAMING numbers, especially since they don't even have reliable NA numbers and that's their home base. That's why US companies don't usually use them.

To sell below 30 million that would mean that 80%+ of the xbox one sales are in NA and we have information to know that's nonsense.

no analyst believes it, no gaming company believes it, no one who has access to the top trackers believes it, so why do you believe it?

...if you can back any of it up. I can't just take your word for it, unfortunately, and I don't know about any of it. I'm not pretending ignorance here -- I have just not taken a great deal of interest in Xbox One sales (because numbers were so hard to come by).

"But we know JPR is wrong" is not much of an argument, and that's all I've been hearing from you. How do we know? I said before I don't expect or require you to provide links, but at the same time you keep insisting the sources are general knowledge.

You're devilishly hard to have a conversation with.

 

[Three]

Crap, ok you're right I misread the article. Shinra is Square's not Sony's. Sony's is Gaikai from what I understand. Though I could have sworn there was some relation. If I find the article again I'll post it. Til then, my apologies.

To answer your question, the arena I'm discussing is cloud gaming over any device. The larger fight is for the "2 Billion" gamers Microsoft touted in their E3 showing and post interviews. Google seems to be building towards a similar target with it's Google Stream. Sony has gaikai, but from what I understand at this point in time, they have not made an attempt at providing their service to more than PS4 and PC.

They provided their services to mobiles and tablets too. The issue is that people didn't really use that app so they dropped support. I assume people didn't use it very often because the people interested in the service were existing PC/PS4 owners using the service at home.

Unfortunately mobile networks aren't built for low latency. When you are on a mobile network you have bad latency. You are also connecting and reconnecting to different towers when on the go. you would have possible seconds of latency or more which means massive input lag. Sony probably looked at customer use and dropped support for the mobile app. Saw that they were either getting complaints of it not working properly on mobile or those that didn't complain simply didn't use the mobile app all that much because they were at home (using their PC or PS4). This isn't a 'Sony doesn't have anything to contend or them shutting down cloud computing' like you suggested. This is them already seeing what the customers use. If they see the need for it it's as easy as supporting the client app again. It's just a simple client app and nothing to do with cloud computing capability.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Okay, any of these would be compelling points:







...if you can back any of it up. I can't just take your word for it, unfortunately, and I don't know about any of it. I'm not pretending ignorance here -- I have just not taken a great deal of interest in Xbox One sales (because numbers were so hard to come by).

because you have nothing to back you own opinion up. We HAVE NPD NA numbers, we KNOW that US sales are not 80% of Xbox One sales. So if we subtract the NPD numbers we have from the numbers you believe it doesn't add up.

Companies generally do not use JPR for NA number,s this is a fact, they use NPD, NPD and JPR have client lists this isn't hard.

You also again for the 500th time have dodged the question of why you suddenly want to believe these numbers but NOT the numbers we got before. What makes JPR different form all those other rumored sales number sources?

At this point you don't answer the question it may be best for you to leave the thread and concede unless your here to troll. Explain your reasoning for these numbers other than random impatience or desperate trolling. You can't have a discussion if you ignore what's being discussed, I have called you out on this same question several times and you continue to dodge it. You aren't even trying to have a good faith discussion that's why the other guys were irritated with you.

 

[Jigsaah]

Okay, any of these would be compelling points:

...if you can back any of it up. I can't just take your word for it, unfortunately, and I don't know about any of it. I'm not pretending ignorance here -- I have just not taken a great deal of interest in Xbox One sales (because numbers were so hard to come by).

"But we know JPR is wrong" is not much of an argument, and that's all I've been hearing from you. How do we know? I said before I don't expect or require you to provide links, but at the same time you keep insisting the sources are general knowledge.

You're devilishly hard to have a conversation with.

Sorry to butt in, I haven't been following this part of the thread. I think this is exactly what Microsoft wants. Obscurity. Nobody really knows this but Microsoft. It keeps them in the conversation and no one can really say how far they are behind with 100% certainty. That allows them to change the narrative to other things like year over year revenue gains and active monthly users. I agree these stats are important as well but at it's current state, you don't get monthly users without console sales. However, it's also important to note that next gen, I think this trend will be exaggerated even further. As our plastic boxes become more and more intangible and digital, active monthly users is going to be what matters. How many subscriptions is going to matter more. I guess Microsoft is just getting out in front of it.

I should also mention that a lot of systems in the beginning of the life cycle are sold at a loss. So more sales of consoles don't actually translate as much to revenue as one would like. Attach rate and now subscriptions to services are a more telling sign.

 

[Jigsaah]

They provided their services to mobiles and tablets too. The issue is that people didn't really use that app so they dropped support. I assume people didn't use it very often because the people interested in the service were existing PC/PS4 owners using the service at home.

Unfortunately mobile networks aren't built for low latency. When you are on a mobile network you have bad latency. You are also connecting and reconnecting to different towers when on the go. you would have possible seconds of latency or more which means massive input lag. Sony probably looked at customer use and dropped support for the mobile app. Saw that they were either getting complaints of it not working properly on mobile or those that didn't complain simply didn't use the mobile app all that much because they were at home (using their PC or PS4). This isn't a 'Sony doesn't have anything to contend or them shutting down cloud computing' like you suggested. This is them already seeing what the customers use. If they see the need for it it's as easy as supporting the client app again. It's just a simple client app and nothing to do with cloud computing capability.

Actually wasn't aware PSNOW had a mobile app. Very interesting. From what you're saying it doesn't sound like they invested much into it though. So I guess the magnitude in which Google and Microsoft are doing this has not been tried before. It's been dabbled in by Sony. Nothing serious though. So I guess the question at this point is would Sony jump back in. I mean all 3 companies have an insane amount of brand recognition to people in the mobile market, though I would argue Google has the advantage due to android and honestly...Microsoft might be in 3rd place. Sure they got tablet in the Surface Pro and the often Windows phones.

Now that I think about it though...Is Google trying to work on all devices with Google Stream? Or is it more just streaming games on Chrome? Which I suppose could also work on Android devices.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Sorry to butt in, I haven't been following this part of the thread. I think this is exactly what Microsoft wants. Obscurity. Nobody really knows this but Microsoft. It keeps them in the conversation and no one can really say how far they are behind with 100% certainty. That allows them to change the narrative to other things like year over year revenue gains and active monthly users. I agree these stats are important as well but at it's current state, you don't get monthly users without console sales. However, it's also important to note that next gen, I think this trend will be exaggerated even further. As our plastic boxes become more and more intangible and digital, active monthly users is going to be what matters. How many subscriptions is going to matter more. I guess Microsoft is just getting out in front of it.

I should also mention that a lot of systems in the beginning of the life cycle are sold at a loss. So more sales of consoles don't actually translate as much to revenue as one would like. Attach rate and now subscriptions to services are a more telling sign.

Actually this gen, either Xbox or PS4 were sold at a loss at the start. Well according to them.

 

[iconmaster]

You also again for the 500th time have dodged the question of why you suddenly want to believe these numbers but NOT the numbers we got before. What makes JPR different form all those other rumored sales number sources?

Does it occur to you that your approach to debate consists of mere assertion? I have not dodged this question. I believe the JPR numbers because we have them. If you want me to believe other numbers, better numbers, stop claiming they exist out there somewhere and tell me where to find them. (I've supplied a start above -- I'm arguing with my own position!) The more you assert the fact without supporting it, the less I'm inclined to believe you.

 

[iconmaster]

Sorry to butt in, I haven't been following this part of the thread. I think this is exactly what Microsoft wants. Obscurity. Nobody really knows this but Microsoft. It keeps them in the conversation and no one can really say how far they are behind with 100% certainty. That allows them to change the narrative to other things like year over year revenue gains and active monthly users.

Definitely. And increasingly I wonder if it isn't even worse for them than we all assumed.

As our plastic boxes become more and more intangible and digital, active monthly users is going to be what matters. How many subscriptions is going to matter more. I guess Microsoft is just getting out in front of it.

That's a fair point.

 

[mckmas8808]

Actually wasn't aware PSNOW had a mobile app. Very interesting. From what you're saying it doesn't sound like they invested much into it though. So I guess the magnitude in which Google and Microsoft are doing this has not been tried before. It's been dabbled in by Sony. Nothing serious though. So I guess the question at this point is would Sony jump back in. I mean all 3 companies have an insane amount of brand recognition to people in the mobile market, though I would argue Google has the advantage due to android and honestly...Microsoft might be in 3rd place. Sure they got tablet in the Surface Pro and the often Windows phones.

Now that I think about it though...Is Google trying to work on all devices with Google Stream? Or is it more just streaming games on Chrome? Which I suppose could also work on Android devices.

MS is going to have to prove to the world that they can get xCloud to work on mobile devices too, because that's waaaay harder to do than streaming on a PC or console just purely due to the network connection. Unless they say it only works on WiFi.

 

[Three]

Actually wasn't aware PSNOW had a mobile app. Very interesting. From what you're saying it doesn't sound like they invested much into it though. So I guess the magnitude in which Google and Microsoft are doing this has not been tried before. It's been dabbled in by Sony. Nothing serious though. So I guess the question at this point is would Sony jump back in. I mean all 3 companies have an insane amount of brand recognition to people in the mobile market, though I would argue Google has the advantage due to android and honestly...Microsoft might be in 3rd place. Sure they got tablet in the Surface Pro and the often Windows phones.

Now that I think about it though...Is Google trying to work on all devices with Google Stream? Or is it more just streaming games on Chrome? Which I suppose could also work on Android devices.

Sony invested in it, they have a service in market and the client apps on all devices were in market. They have the most experience and data from it so yes it HAS been tried before on a much bigger global scale than either project stream or xcloud.
Google is currenly in beta. US only. It actually does not officially support any devices other than PC Chrome. Not even chromecast. Same with xCloud, US only and the beta isn't even started yet to get officially supported devices.

There are no official confirmed plans to support other countries or devices for Project stream as far as I know so what magnitude is there that has never been tried before?

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Does it occur to you that your approach to debate consists of mere assertion? I have not dodged this question. I believe the JPR numbers because we have them.

For one nobody seems not have issues getting NA NPD numbers but you, you can even find some up till late 2017 on this very website.

And you still refuse to answer the question. Please answer the question.

why you suddenly want to believe these numbers but NOT the numbers we got before. What makes JPR different form all those other rumored sales number sources?

Why can't you answer this question??

 

[iconmaster]

Why can't you answer this question??

Are you actually for real? I've answered this question in reply to you twice.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Are you actually for real? I've answered this question in reply to you twice.

You've never answered the question.

Let's go over the question first:

why you take these numbers as gospel but none of the more reliable previous once, you have dodged answering the question.

The real question people have is why are THESE the numbers you decide to believe due to, primarily impatience and not the other "reports" that are just as or more reliable?

But for years now we've had sources be wrong or have crazy estimates. Why would this one be different?

You've never answered this question, you either didn't respond to it or cut it out of quotes, this is as close as you got:

No, I've given my opinion on this. JPR 1) has been around for years, 2) is used as a source by sites like AnandTech and 3) has a realistic claim to accuracy (GPU shipments).

Which doesn't answer the question, we have had reliable sources put out guesstimates before. If used by sites is your requirement, it's near the bottom of the list. The rest isn't something JPR is not unique in. We've had numerous sources that's "been around for years" . So what makes JPR special? Why is THIS the source that you decided to believe?

I'll tell you, because either you're trolling or you are completely losing it. You even tried using debunked EA numbers to justify JPR's numbers, why are you searching for justification for JPR I though you were looking for counter-points? You haven't been looking for counter-pints because this exact link and topic has been all around so the fact you're not finding counter-points is complete nonsense. I've thrown this on search engines and from Reset down there are numerous counter-points. Less than 3 minutes of research.

Again, WHY are you using JPR, why NOW? Why is THIS SOURCE, despite previous sources before, you now take as true? Why are you taking these numbers as factual? You even originally said you'd set this source on the shelf and then immediately did a 180 and decided it's true based on nothing, this doesn't make any sense.

You're refusal to realize it doesn't make any sense only leads me to the above two conclusions. Especially since you're clearly lying about searching for counter-points, as almost every gaming board that has deep discussions about sales with this link is filled with counter-points about how the numbers can't be right, you're clearly not searching for anything.

Me pointing out you not making sense doesn't mean I'm angry, but that's an interesting cop-out for not making any sense.

 

[LittleBusters]

Ok how does EA know how many XBox Ones have been sold through? Only Microsoft has that data. Nobody other than Crapgamerreviews(and similar batshit crazy fanboys) thinks the XB1 has been truly competitive in 8th gen. However things are shaping up nicely for 9th gen. Microsoft doesn't even need 1/3 market share in 9th gen to be considered a success IF Project xCloud is a raging success.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Ok how does EA know how many XBox Ones have been sold through? Only Microsoft has that data. Nobody other than Crapgamerreviews(and similar batshit crazy fanboys) thinks the XB1 has been truly competitive in 8th gen. However things are shaping up nicely for 9th gen. Microsoft doesn't even need 1/3 market share in 9th gen to be considered a success IF Project xCloud is a raging success.

Not to mention the AMD shipments nonsense, The PS4 number for 2017 is incorrect and XB1 numbers are also incorrect. Unless the XB1 sold less than zero units outside the US in 2017.

As for the cloud uh, I don't get you there. Xbox One can still have a successful console along with a successful cloud.

 

[LittleBusters]

Yeah but my point is that Microsoft is hedging their bets with 9th generation. Hardware doesn't have to be super successful anymore if cloud is bringing up the rear.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Yeah but my point is that Microsoft is hedging their bets with 9th generation. Hardware doesn't have to be super successful anymore if cloud is bringing up the rear.

Yes but then the hardware wouldn't be making money. MS wants to make profits.

 

[bitbydeath]

Ok how does EA know how many XBox Ones have been sold through? Only Microsoft has that data.

I don’t think it’s been said. They do take it very seriously though so either from stores like NPD or they have someone on the inside.

 

[Jigsaah]

Sony invested in it, they have a service in market and the client apps on all devices were in market. They have the most experience and data from it so yes it HAS been tried before on a much bigger global scale than either project stream or xcloud.
Google is currenly in beta. US only. It actually does not officially support any devices other than PC Chrome. Not even chromecast. Same with xCloud, US only and the beta isn't even started yet to get officially supported devices.

There are no official confirmed plans to support other countries or devices for Project stream as far as I know so what magnitude is there that has never been tried before?

I consider myself a pretty hardcore gamer. I own all systems except for the switch (outgrown it...sorry) and a gaming PC. I'm usually on top of these things. Not to say I'm all knowing or anything, but if Sony was really pressing this client app you're discussing, I'm confused as to how I've never heard of it. It definitely wasn't advertised mainstream and may be because it was nothing to beat your chest about. That alone puts Microsoft on a different stage though. They are coming out the gate with this. Now there are some projects Microsoft has announced and never really went mainstream. Hololens....and what's that one where your games were projected on the walls? I forget. However it's not because they tried and it doesn't work. It's because it's too expensive or there's little interest.

It would be interesting to see if they can pull this off. I want them to, cuz it would be an amazing feat and I'd actually consider playing games on my phone. Might even consider buying a new tablet for this.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

I don’t think it’s been said. They do take it very seriously though so either from stores like NPD or they have someone on the inside.

EA has estimates they don't have the numbers.