• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Opinion Clickbait Game Dev Xbox Series X and PS5 GPU TFLOPS Difference Will Mostly Matter To Xbox Exclusives – Quantum League Developer

IbizaPocholo

NeoGAFs Kent Brockman
Dec 1, 2014
29,126
33,972
1,345
ibiza

Balthazar Auger, lead game designer on Quantum League, told us that while it’s something that will prove to be beneficial to developers working on Xbox exclusives, for multiplatform studios, it won’t make too much of a difference, because, they’ll be “bound by the lowest-spec target hardware.”

“I think it will mostly matter to Xbox-exclusive titles, which will be able to be programmed to get every drop of extra juice from the machine,” Auger said. “It may also buy the new console a longer generation cycle. However, all developers building multi-platform titles are bound by the lowest-spec target hardware, so the only advantage I can imagine there would be stabler framerates on higher-end resolutions for the Xbox Series X.”
 

Kagey K

Member
Dec 18, 2013
11,592
17,320
995
Just like how they only mattered this gen right?

1080p was sublime but 720 or 900 was Vaseline smeared garbage. Except all the times that swore it was 1080 and then told it was 900 and then they say, oh I knew something was off,

Funny how the reports are written the same, but different.

Different and still the same.
 
Last edited:

DynamiteCop!

Banned
Mar 3, 2018
5,091
12,668
870
This dumb logic doesn't hold up because basically every third party is building the same games for PC so there's already a higher ceiling to draw from. I hate these low rent no name developers trying to get clout by putting their name in the same sentence as these systems for 15 minutes of fame.
 

The Alien

Member
Feb 10, 2018
1,706
2,011
410
So how does RDR2 perform much better on X1X vs. other current gen consoles? Scaling?

I think that will be more true for how "game changing" Sonys SSD will be used....by 1st party.
 

McRazzle

Member
Jul 27, 2016
249
345
410

Balthazar Auger, lead game designer on Quantum League, told us that while it’s something that will prove to be beneficial to developers working on Xbox exclusives, for multiplatform studios, it won’t make too much of a difference, because, they’ll be “bound by the lowest-spec target hardware.”

“I think it will mostly matter to Xbox-exclusive titles, which will be able to be programmed to get every drop of extra juice from the machine,” Auger said. “It may also buy the new console a longer generation cycle. However, all developers building multi-platform titles are bound by the lowest-spec target hardware, so the only advantage I can imagine there would be stabler framerates on higher-end resolutions for the Xbox Series X.”
No.

 

Kagey K

Member
Dec 18, 2013
11,592
17,320
995
This is actually insulting to all developers everywhere, now that I think about it.
 

polybius80

Member
Jan 10, 2019
496
547
330
Just like how they only mattered this gen right?

1080p was sublime but 720 or 900 was Vaseline smeared garbage. Except all the times that swore it was 1080 and then told it was 900 and then they say, oh I knew something was off,

Funny how the reports are written the same, but different.

Different and still the same.

but microsoft have the World's most powerful console: the xbox one x



ps5 doesn't have a tiny space for framebuffer as was the case with xbox one this generation, that affected resolution most of the time, that said the difference is not as much as was between ps4 and xbox one
 

DynamiteCop!

Banned
Mar 3, 2018
5,091
12,668
870
but microsoft have the World's most powerful console: the xbox one x



ps5 doesn't have a tiny space for framebuffer as was the case with xbox one this generation, that affected resolution most of the time, that said the difference is not as much as was between ps4 and xbox one
It's still a big difference. It's 1.5 - 1.8~ PlayStation 4 GPU's worth of raster compute on top of the PlayStation 5 's GPU. That's still a pretty large gap in capability. Also that doesn't at all account for having 44% more dedicated hardware for Ray Tracing.
 

Kagey K

Member
Dec 18, 2013
11,592
17,320
995
but microsoft have the World's most powerful console: the xbox one x



ps5 doesn't have a tiny space for framebuffer as was the case with xbox one this generation, that affected resolution most of the time, that said the difference is not as much as was between ps4 and xbox one
Such a strawman, the gen was decided before the X came out. Everyone that uses it as a deflection knows how weak that argument is.

So I’m not going to reiterate it here.
 

polybius80

Member
Jan 10, 2019
496
547
330
It's still a big difference. It's 1.5 - 1.8~ PlayStation 4 GPU's worth of raster compute on top of the PlayStation 5 's GPU. That's still a pretty large gap in capability. Also that doesn't at all account for having 44% more dedicated hardware for Ray Tracing.

the difference is proportionally less than last gen


44% more dedicated hardware for ray tracing?
 
  • Praise the Sun
Reactions: Devilich

Mackers

Member
Sep 3, 2018
57
72
225
So now its news that multiplatform games have to be developed for the lowest common denominator?

This is absolutely true, but also applies to PS5's SSD.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Devilich

polybius80

Member
Jan 10, 2019
496
547
330
Yeah, the RT intersections/cores are directly tied to CU count. Series X has 16 more CU's, a 44% increase i.e. 44% more hardware for RT.

yes but they run slower, faster CUs will do more pixels than slower CUs, there is a relation betwen quantity of CUs and speed, the amount of operations depends on both just as watts depends on voltage and current , 44% more CUs by itself doesn't give you an idea of how much you can do :pie_eyeroll: the console still have 44% more CU's when is turned off but not many pixels are going to be calculated that way :pie_thinking: its better to use the flops number doesn't take into account special functions and gain in performance for games but at least is way to compare the GPU side by side
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Devilich

DynamiteCop!

Banned
Mar 3, 2018
5,091
12,668
870
yes but they run slower, faster CUs will do more pixels than slower CUs, there is a relation betwen quantity of CUs and speed, the amount of operations depends on both just as watts depends on voltage and current , 44% more CUs by itself doesn't give you an idea of how much you can do :pie_eyeroll: the console still have 44% more CU's when is turned off but not many pixels are going to be calculated that way :pie_thinking:
Again, an increase in clock speed will help with fill rates to a degree but that's really the long and short of it. Series X will still have higher fill rates, more shader cores, more TMU's, likely more ROPs, and a wider bus. More physical hardware in general is much more important, and you're forgetting that Microsoft's system is fixed. Nothing makes up for more hardware, also no one is entirely sure if the frequency has an effect on the RT cores, that much is not known yet but again performance will not scale up linearly and it can't combat the sheer amount of hardware.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SoloKingRobert

Kagey K

Member
Dec 18, 2013
11,592
17,320
995
That's just non-sense. 99% of the time, the XSX version of multiplats will win Digital Foundry head to heads. It will run at higher resolutions, higher framerates, better raytracing and effects, or all of the above.
But it won’t fill as fast and all the extra bells and whistles mean less then a fraction of a second of a second load time.
 

DynamiteCop!

Banned
Mar 3, 2018
5,091
12,668
870
That's just non-sense. 99% of the time, the XSX version of multiplats will win Digital Foundry head to heads. It will run at higher resolutions, higher framerates, better raytracing and effects, or all of the above.
Exactly, there's always edge cases but that merely falls to the developers feet for poor optimization, and by and large it's the Japanese which isn't shocking. The Xbox One being the disaster it was still garnered the X with not only a larger enhanced library, but of that library about 98% of the titles look and run better.

That's with a system which wasn't super popular, the Series X is not that system and appears to be doing everything right so I'd expect even better support.
 

-Arcadia-

Banned
Aug 20, 2019
9,661
33,487
910
He might have a point. Are we really going to be seething if PS5 games show up at 1800p or something, instead of 2140p? Things like DLSS (if PS5 has an equivalent) further reduce that difference.

We don’t understand how the hardware differences are going to play out at this point, but this seems like a possible scenario.

I don’t want to give the #13TeraflopsGang even more excuses, but I don’t think this developer is off base. Am I wrong? I’d like to discuss this and see what can be learned about the hardware all around.
 

DynamiteCop!

Banned
Mar 3, 2018
5,091
12,668
870
He might have a point. Are we really going to be seething if PS5 games show up at 1800p or something, instead of 2140p? Things like DLSS (if PS5 has an equivalent) further reduce that difference.

We don’t understand how the hardware differences are going to play out at this point, but this seems like a possible scenario.

I don’t want to give the #13TeraflopsGang even more excuses, but I don’t think this developer is off base. Am I wrong? I’d like to discuss this and see what can be learned about the hardware all around.
Basically all multiplatform games are also designed around the PC with settings consoles typically don't see, so by nature the thought of catering to the bottom spec doesn't make a bit of sense, none.
 
  • Like
Reactions: -Arcadia-

Kagey K

Member
Dec 18, 2013
11,592
17,320
995
Basically all multiplatform games are also designed around the PC with settings consoles typically don't see, so by nature the thought of catering to the bottom spec doesn't make a bit of sense, none.
Shhh don’t ruin the narrative. It’s literally the last thread they have.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rightisright

polybius80

Member
Jan 10, 2019
496
547
330
Again, an increase in clock speed will help with fill rates to a degree but that's really the long and short of it. Series X will still have higher fill rates, more shader cores, more TMU's, likely more ROPs, and a wider bus. More physical hardware in general is much more important, and you're forgetting that Microsoft's system is fixed. Nothing makes up for more hardware, also no one is entirely sure if the frequency has an effect on the RT cores, that much is not known yet but again performance will not scale up linearly and it can't combat the sheer amount of hardware.



back to electronics

whatever process you do with logic gates that is "AND" "OR" "XOR" "FLIP-FLOPS" whatever it will advance with a clock signal, you use the clock signal for example on a flip flop to change its status this will make change in other logic gates connected to it, you want to sum, multiply or do a series of operations? well you will need a clock signal for it to advance each step, if you have 1 Hz that is 1 clock signal per second whatever you do with 1 Hz you will be able to make 2 times per second at 2 Hz let say you sum a series of numbers on a eeprom, well you can use one clock signal to pull data form a direction on the eeprom, then advance the position and get next adress at the same time you take the data and sum it on a register and so on if you can make a sum in 1Hz then at 2 Hz you sum 2 values per second so you will finish the list 2 times faster of course you cannot upclock infinitely the eeprom has a time to change but more clock will scale the amount of operations

if the CU are going to do the same operation let say ray tracing and lets say one clock calculates the pixel in one bounce of the light naturally high clock will allow it to finish faster


what is the problem if the GPU clock is fixed vs variable? Xbsx GPU will be idle during the frame time it doesnt have to do anything like any GPU, PS5 GPU will do the same but can also modifly its clock if doesnt need as much

yes Xbsx have more power overall but the difference is smaller than Ps4 vs Xbone and even then Xbone had the eSRAM problem its size caused most of resolution problems
 
Last edited:

TearInto5th

Member
Mar 8, 2020
149
357
270
It's still a big difference. It's 1.5 - 1.8~ PlayStation 4 GPU's worth of raster compute on top of the PlayStation 5 's GPU. That's still a pretty large gap in capability. Also that doesn't at all account for having 44% more dedicated hardware for Ray Tracing.
But also look at the fact its only one base PS4. Which in comparison compared to the diminishing returns that we would get with these consoles power.

Considering how good the majority of Xbox One games look side by side to PS4.

The gap isn't large.
 

DynamiteCop!

Banned
Mar 3, 2018
5,091
12,668
870
But also look at the fact its only one base PS4. Which in comparison compared to the diminishing returns that we would get with these consoles power.

Considering how good the majority of Xbox One games look side by side to PS4.

The gap isn't large.
No, it's one and half PS4 GPU's at minimum. That's substantial no matter how you dice it.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Devilich

polybius80

Member
Jan 10, 2019
496
547
330
No, it's one and half PS4 GPU's at minimum. That's substantial no matter how you dice it.

the difference between PS4 and Xbx1 was an xbox 360(GPU+CPU) and a half but its worst problem was the memory configuration yet it wasn't so bad except for a few cases incredibly even some games ran better than their Ps4 counterparts in some comparisons in EG
 
  • Like
Reactions: Devilich

Kenpachii

Member
Mar 23, 2018
8,712
10,809
815


back to electronics

whatever process you do with logic gates that is "AND" "OR" "XOR" "FLIP-FLOPS" whatever it will advance with a clock signal, you use the clock signal for example on a flip flop to change its status this will make change in other logic gates connected to it, you want to sum, multiply or do a series of operations? well you will need a clock signal for it to advance each step, if you have 1 Hz that is 1 clock signal per second whatever you do with 1 Hz you will be able to make 2 times per second at 2 Hz let say you sum a series of numbers on a eeprom, well you can use one clock signal to pull data form a direction on the eeprom, then advance the position and get next adress at the same time you take the data and sum it on a register and so on if you can make a sum in 1Hz then at 2 Hz you sum 2 values per second so you will finish the list 2 times faster of course you cannot upclock infinitely the eeprom has a time to change but more clock will scale the amount of operations

if the CU are going to do the same operation let say ray tracing and lets say one clock calculates the pixel in one bounce of the light naturally high clock will allow it to finish faster


what is the problem if the GPU clock is fixed vs variable? Xbsx GPU will be idle during the frame time it doesnt have to do anything like any GPU, PS5 GPU will do the same but can also modifly its clock if doesnt need as much

yes Xbsx have more power overall but the difference is smaller than Ps4 vs Xbone and even then Xbone had the eSRAM problem its size caused most of resolution problems


Good luck having idle clocks at 4k
 

polybius80

Member
Jan 10, 2019
496
547
330
Basically all multiplatform games are also designed around the PC with settings consoles typically don't see, so by nature the thought of catering to the bottom spec doesn't make a bit of sense, none.

he is talking about consoles only

there is this quote
Given that Microsoft themselves have committed to releasing all their games for the foreseeable future on the Xbox One as well as the Xbox Series X, it should be interesting to see how long it will be before we can see developers take full advantage of the next-gen console’s hardware. The Xbox One S – which is the lowest-spec target hardware in this scenario – is a lot weaker than the Series X, after all.

PC development is quite different, on PC you develop using an standard API and nowadays with someones else engine like unreal or unity, some hardware have more specs for example more real lights more texture units but you use the standard, if directx says there is a maximum number of lights then you go by Direct3d or OpenGL number because is responsibility of the GPU to support the standard they say they support, you can add effects that may require better GPUs but that is not designing the game with those GPUs in mind, also you dont design a game thinking in specific cache sizes of the CPU or if RAM is DDR3 or DDR4, the developer refers to use parts of the console that others wont touch for example the id buffer in PS4 pro, things like that
 

polybius80

Member
Jan 10, 2019
496
547
330
Good luck having idle clocks at 4k

when for example the camera looks over the window there is a cost for that frame when the camera turns at the wall then there is another cost, that frame is more simple and most of GPU is idle, if you have a game capped at 30 or 60 fps the machine in reality can run faster but spends it free time idle otherwise you will generate irregular framerates and give motion problems
 
Last edited:

GymWolf

Member
Jun 11, 2019
19,110
28,654
635
Just like how they only mattered this gen right?

1080p was sublime but 720 or 900 was Vaseline smeared garbage. Except all the times that swore it was 1080 and then told it was 900 and then they say, oh I knew something was off,

Funny how the reports are written the same, but different.

Different and still the same.
not to defend lower resolution, but i think the difference between 4k and something like 1800p is less noticeable than 900p to 1080p.
also 1800p fixed resolution is probably better than any fake4k with reconstruction techniques.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: GHG

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
Jul 24, 2015
4,787
2,812
715
Switzerland

Balthazar Auger, lead game designer on Quantum League, told us that while it’s something that will prove to be beneficial to developers working on Xbox exclusives, for multiplatform studios, it won’t make too much of a difference, because, they’ll be “bound by the lowest-spec target hardware.”

“I think it will mostly matter to Xbox-exclusive titles, which will be able to be programmed to get every drop of extra juice from the machine,” Auger said. “It may also buy the new console a longer generation cycle. However, all developers building multi-platform titles are bound by the lowest-spec target hardware, so the only advantage I can imagine there would be stabler framerates on higher-end resolutions for the Xbox Series X.”
He is absolutely right. Just like this gen there was always parity in XBO and PS4 games. /s
 
  • Like
Reactions: TearInto5th

Barakov

Member
Sep 30, 2006
8,771
8,187
1,520
I think we need to address the DynamiteCop! in the room : WHAT THE FUCK IS QUANTAM LEAGUE?
 

Windows-PC

Banned
Mar 14, 2020
182
500
360
This makes no sense to me! :D I belive Video Games will always be developed for the most advanced hardware and than downported, therefore it's like:

PC > XBox Series X > PlayStation 5

3rd Party Games will be on consoles always be superior on the XBox Series X, which probably are around 90% of the available Video Games during a consoles lifetime ;)
 

GHG

Member
Nov 9, 2006
26,175
39,023
1,845
I think we need to address the DynamiteCop! in the room : WHAT THE FUCK IS QUANTAM LEAGUE?


It's actually a pretty unique take on a multiplayer fps, they had an open beta on Steam a few weeks ago.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Barakov

SleepDoctor

Banned
Nov 11, 2019
2,355
4,625
515
What game is quantum league? Lol

I know of Quantum Break, Quantum Theory, and Quantum Error. First time I hear of this game.

OT: I don't see huge differences coming in third party besides maybe more stable framerate or a bit higher resolution. Exclusives we'll have to wait to see.

As I've said numerous times. Sony did amazing things with 1.84 tf. Imagine with what they have now.
 

All_Might

Member
Jan 28, 2020
103
286
280
This makes no sense to me! :D I belive Video Games will always be developed for the most advanced hardware and than downported, therefore it's like:

PC > XBox Series X > PlayStation 5

3rd Party Games will be on consoles always be superior on the XBox Series X, which probably are around 90% of the available Video Games during a consoles lifetime ;)

It’s the other way around, in 15 years of development I have never developed for the strongest hardware and then down ported it to match weaker hardware. This way creates way to many problems, imagine you are a Engine developer, you develop a engine that needs a minimum of 2.4 g/s of transfer speed from your storage medium (this is an example), how would you now bridge this deficit ? It is possible, but you would have to rewrite your entire engine around this problem. Which is why you look at each individual part of the platforms you release and then always take into consideration the weakest hardware.
Now the gpu is the easiest power deficit you can migrate, simply reducing the graphics fidelity will give the weaker hardware enough of a boost to bridge the difference in power (or resolution etc.).
The cpu on the other hand is more of a problem, where you really have to start putting effort into optimisation work, architectural difference is one problem but if there is also a significant power difference your problems really start to show (see ps3 and Xbox 360 for a similar problem).
Storage mediums are a huge problem and will be difficult to port for, if you require a certain amount of bandwidth. Imagine you really need the ps5 level ssd speeds and then you suddenly have to port your game to Xbox series X. This will create fundamental problems in streaming things into your game and the problem only increases when you take into consideration that on pcs most users still store their games on hdds. Now you have a real problem, for what kind of problems start to appear, watch the digital foundry video on playing star citizen with an Hdd. This game “only” requires a normal sata ssd to be played, imagine what would happen if your engine requires the ps5 ssd as a minimum, it would simply be unplayable.

These are examples why you always start with the weakest platform for each of the hardware components in mind and then start developing your game. That does not mean you cannot take advantage of the stronger hardware like Xbox Series X gpu or PlayStation 5 ssd, but you take the weaker hardware as the base for your development and then increase the fidelity and effects for the stronger hardware.

Multi platform games no doubt will look better on Xbox, but do not expect a huge difference in what can be done. Instead you will either see better graphics for example more foliage in an environment or better effects, more stable fps etc. See this generation for reference and remember this gen had a difference of ~40% while the next won’t even be 20%. So keep this in mind.

Cheers.
 

makaveli60

Member
Jan 7, 2018
1,980
3,299
505
This dumb logic doesn't hold up because basically every third party is building the same games for PC so there's already a higher ceiling to draw from. I hate these low rent no name developers trying to get clout by putting their name in the same sentence as these systems for 15 minutes of fame.
So going by your logic, multiplatform games on PS4 looked better than Xbox One besides resolution and/or framerate?
 

FlyyGOD

Member
Sep 4, 2019
566
1,146
410
You guys do realize that Microsoft hasn't mandated any 3rd party company to make games for this generation of systems? If a 3rd party wants to make a game exclusively for the Series X without being backwards compatible they can.
 

Ellery

Member
Feb 17, 2019
1,948
3,543
525
35
Manches, Amsterdam, Berlin
I am actually most interested in how the exclusive xbox games are going to run on Win10 PCs with equivalent hardware. Next gen consoles are extremely powerful with the RDNA2 tech and if we finally get Xbox exclusives after the first 2 years of shared gaming between previous and current gen we should witness some exciting games in terms of graphics.
Actually if I think about it by that time GPUs with 20-30TF should be widely available and I needen't worry.

But I guess 3rd party games will look nearly identical on SeriesX/PS5 with the Series X maybe having slightly more RayTracing or higher resolution and PS5 exclusive games looking better, because they have a bigger focus on AAA SIngle Player games like Uncharted, The Last of Us, Horizon Zero Dawn, God of War, Death Stranding, Bloodborne, Ghosts of Tsushima etc.
And later on when we see the big guns of Xbox (Forza, Gears) those games will look great on the Series X aswell.

Obviously anyone who believes that they fundamentally change graphics because of a minor TF difference is out of their mind (for third party games). Same happened with the PS4 and Xbox One where the PS4 1.8TF was 40%+ more powerful than the Xbox One 1.3TF (which is a bigger difference than the PS5 <-> Xbox Series X) and the PS4 Pro 4.2 TF and Xbox One X 6TF (which is also bigger difference than the PS5 <-> Xbox Series X). At the end they treated it like graphic options for PC games where they moved some sliders and the same will probably happen this time around, but with the difference being even smaller so some Devs might even not do it at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hobbygaming

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Sep 30, 2019
5,498
11,489
630
So how does RDR2 perform much better on X1X vs. other current gen consoles? Scaling?

I think that will be more true for how "game changing" Sonys SSD will be used....by 1st party.
RDR2 was the exception not the rule though, most games looked the same
 

phil_t98

Member
Oct 10, 2014
4,907
5,093
655

Balthazar Auger, lead game designer on Quantum League, told us that while it’s something that will prove to be beneficial to developers working on Xbox exclusives, for multiplatform studios, it won’t make too much of a difference, because, they’ll be “bound by the lowest-spec target hardware.”

“I think it will mostly matter to Xbox-exclusive titles, which will be able to be programmed to get every drop of extra juice from the machine,” Auger said. “It may also buy the new console a longer generation cycle. However, all developers building multi-platform titles are bound by the lowest-spec target hardware, so the only advantage I can imagine there would be stabler framerates on higher-end resolutions for the Xbox Series X.”

so will the PS5 SSD be held back as well? all talk of super fast SSD and it will be held back by the lowest common denominator
 

CuNi

Member
Sep 4, 2014
1,412
1,390
835
Germany

It's actually a pretty unique take on a multiplayer fps, they had an open beta on Steam a few weeks ago.

It surely is a unique take, though, at least for me, it looks very unappealing from a gameplay loop perspective.
Animations are a bit clunky but I bet they'll smooth them till release. Art-Style looks nice actually.