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[VFXVeteran]

Of course. That performance gap isn't large enough at all.

But I would go further to say that will be the case this entire generation compared to last gen (i.e. don't expect massive jumps this generation compared to last with regards to graphics).

 

[VFXVeteran]

Lost count how many times i have said this over the last year or so. A 4k target just eats up them teraflops for breakfast.
Obviously there will be a jump, just dont expect miracles.
If you take Demon's Souls for example, its by far the best looking launch game imo, but thats all down to its high quality textures. It looks like someone took Dark Souls 3 and added a 4k texture mod. Polygon wise, i have no doubt a 1080p/30 version could be done on PS4.

Agreed.. and to a lesser extent, it's dynamic shadow for its internal light source attached to the character. That is very important.

 

[rnlval]

Xbox Series X’s Horsepower Allows for More Creative Freedom, But Don’t Expect Massive Jumps in Visual Quality – The Medium Dev

gamingbolt.com

Acording to Bloober Team’s Jacek Zieba, who is a producer on the upcoming horror title The Medium, the 9th console generation’s added horsepower isn’t going to bring about similar leaps in quality, and will instead pave the way for more creative freedom, and new gameplay experiences- such as The Medium’s own patented Dual Reality gameplay.

“Games will generally look better, but it won’t be an amazing leap in quality like PS2 vs PS3 vs PS4, or Xbox vs Xbox 360 vs Xbox One,” Zieba said in an interview with GamingBolt. “The ability for better computing power and hardware can definitely help open up many interesting ideas and concepts, whether it will be better AI, finer details on the stage, or easier workarounds for developers. It helps to provide more opportunities for creative freedom, such as the dual reality gameplay within The Medium.”

A large CPU power increase can enable significant improvements for gameplay scale and control points detail.

 

[rnlval]

Of course. That performance gap isn't large enough at all.

But I would go further to say that will be the case this entire generation compared to last gen (i.e. don't expect massive jumps this generation compared to last with regards to graphics).

Both PS5 and XSX CPUs should be able to run Star Citizen's scale at useable frame rates.

 

[Coolwhhip]

If most games will have 60fps modes, that would be a massive jump in visual quality.

And while I agree the jumps will be smaller and smaller, the Demon Souls remake does look amazing.

 

[assurdum]

What exactly he meant for massive? Because after seen UE5 demo, I call it a massive upgrade compared UE4. I never understood the point of such absolutist claim by some developers. Diminishing returns is a thing but now taking POV possibile this generation, there will be literally a massive leap there and let's not talk about raytracing in reflections which are transformative compared cubemap.

 

[Hendrick's]

Didn't we already see the Unreal Engine 5 demo on PS5? What else looks even remotely close to that? How is that not a massive leap?

This is an absurd take IMO.

I hight doubt we will see an actual game that looks that good.

 

[assurdum]

I hight doubt we will see an actual game that looks that good.

Of course we will. Not in short time.

 

[Hendrick's]

Of course we will. Not in short time.

Not this generation.

 

[assurdum]

Not this generation.

Uh why not? Later generation games are almost a step above the old UE4 demo showed on PS4. Furthermore UE5 is full playable on ps5, and not just a cutscene. I don't follow you.

 

[Hendrick's]

Uh why not? Later generation games are almost a step above the old UE4 demo showed on PS4. Furthermore UE5 is full playable on ps5, and not just a cutscene.

The only way I see it is in a 30fps small environment based game.

 

[assurdum]

The only way I see it is in a 30fps small environment based game.

30 fps of course but not just in small environment. What are those bizzarre preconceptions? CPU, I/O increase and SSD are there for that. You don't build a next gen multiplat engine limited for games with small environments.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Expectations created by Microsoft marketing department. Lest we forget.

 

[Hendrick's]

30 fps of course but not just in small environment. What are those bizzarre preconceptions? CPU, I/O increase and SSD are there for that.

Well I hope your are right, but I won't believe it until it's real.

 

[assurdum]

Well I hope your are right, but I won't believe it until it's real.

I think your mind is too much tied to the limits of the past generation. The point to have such massive SSD speed (furthermore the I/O optimization) is to eliminate such limitations. That's why it takes just a bunch of second to boot even free roam games. Would be ridiculous if UE5 can't be pushed in more open areas.

 

[Hunnybun]

I hight doubt we will see an actual game that looks that good.

It doesn't matter. That looks ludicrously good, a quantum leap from last gen. And despite the amazing tech, it was running in 1440p30, so...

We have ALREADY seen that a 4K30 target is enough for a leap like Ratchet & Clank. That's a BIG jump. It looks fucking excellent. And it's still basically the only game made from the ground up for next gen that we've really seen. Things will only get way better from here.

So this talk that we won't get much improvement is just fucking bollocks.

 

[Allandor]

Nah

Stop speaking for other people! I play games regularly and the step up from 1X to series X is huge to me. The visuals are far more immersive, even distant buildings are highly detailed, everything is sharper, smoother and better. For me the visual jump is as good as any other gen, I'm very impressed. If you arent, thats fine, but stop spouting your opinion like it should be everybody elses too, as it isnt.

lets just say, we both have our opinion.

60fps ist far better, than the 30fps of the older consoles. Yes there is a bit more detail and overall better pixel quality. But if you have seen the jumps of the past, this one is not really big. What a difference my good old Voodoo 1 card made in games, or the PS1 -> PS2 offered whole different gameplay mechanics far better graphics. But after PS3 ... well games look better, yes have more detail etc, ... but in the end they are still the same games and you can recognize everything (not like on PS1 & 2 where you could guess what is on screen because the object was partially just not recognizable).

And again yes, this is just my opinion (this is a gaming forum ... and not a fact-based science forum).

 

[Elder Legend]

Didn't we already see the Unreal Engine 5 demo on PS5? What else looks even remotely close to that? How is that not a massive leap?

This is an absurd take IMO.

I agree with you. I think the leap between ps3 to ps4 was absolutely horrific and not that great. PS4 to PS5 however, much bigger imo and you can thank the much better CPU jump for that and SSD

 

[Cockles & Whelks]

Just go back to 1080p and make great looking games with great framerates.

4K is a waste unless developers ship pristine Triple AAA contact lenses with every game. I had the PS4 Pro. And there was a difference, only I had to sit a foot away from the TV to notice them.

 

[OrtizTwelve]

I think overall games will look better -- better lighting, better image quality, more life-like and realistic animations, etc

But it won't be a BIG leap.

I believe Phil Spencer from XBOX commented on this as well basically saying this generation is more about performance and experiences as opposed to graphical fidelity. Basically games will look better but more noticeable will be their performance, which is what we're seeing now.

For example, Demon Souls on PS5 looks fantastic, but it's not a HUGE jump from PS4 to be honest. Gears 5 looks amazing on XBOX Series X|S but it's not a HUGE jump from XBOX ONE.

I think this generation we will see overall:

- better performance, more games running at stable frame rates while looking great
- better lighting, better effects, better animations, better AI
- games will look more realistic and believable, but still have that video game look

 

[onQ123]

Of course. That performance gap isn't large enough at all.

But I would go further to say that will be the case this entire generation compared to last gen (i.e. don't expect massive jumps this generation compared to last with regards to graphics).

I say you're wrong because PS5 & Xbox Series X have built in SSDs & can use the high quality assets & they can also use tricks like using precomputed graphics

 

[-Arcadia-]

Maybe for this dev, but what I've seen from areas of a simple launch game, have been absolutely jaw-dropping, let alone whatever comes next.

I was a skeptic as well.

 

[GymWolf]

Lost count how many times i have said this over the last year or so. A 4k target just eats up them teraflops for breakfast.
Obviously there will be a jump, just dont expect miracles.
If you take Demon's Souls for example, its by far the best looking launch game imo, but thats all down to its high quality textures. It looks like someone took Dark Souls 3 and added a 4k texture mod. Polygon wise, i have no doubt a 1080p/30 version could be done on PS4.

Console need to:

Entirely drop rtx until midgen refresh or next-next gen.
Find a dlss type of solution to get 4kinda without wasting too much resources
Stay at 30 frames


To get a generation jump in fidelity.
Not ideal, but what can you do??

 

[Kataploom]

Of course. That performance gap isn't large enough at all.

But I would go further to say that will be the case this entire generation compared to last gen (i.e. don't expect massive jumps this generation compared to last with regards to graphics).

This, and people think all advances in gaming should be "seen", should be noticed graphically and no, since last gen graphics where already advanced enough, when Raytracing starts being used extensively then we can talk, for now and since 7th gen shaders based graphic computing is basically set and just being used on different intensities depending on the raw power.

The jump from 7th to 8th gen wasn't that big as previous gens too, there are some graphicall masterpieces that showed impresive graphics, but that was mostly due to very skilled developers and artists.

This time around it's gonna be the same, but mostly because the advances will be in other areas that gamers have been begging since 7th gen, like AI, physics, simulations, framerate, etc, due to finally having a decent CPU.

Most of graphical advances will happen because of pure raw power and improvements on existing tools, not because of the hardware technoology significantly changed allowing for different things not possible before.

That's it in my opinion, could be wrong but that's what I've seen so far now.

 

[VFXVeteran]

I say you're wrong because PS5 & Xbox Series X have built in SSDs & can use the high quality assets & they can also use tricks like using precomputed graphics

SSDs can use high quality assets but those assets have to be rendered at a decent FPS.

Precomputed graphics is last gen. There is no moving forward with sticking to that this generation. And you only talk about precomputed graphics because NOT using them cost too much for these consoles. Not because that's what looks better.

 

[onQ123]

SSDs can use high quality assets but those assets have to be rendered at a decent FPS.

Precomputed graphics is last gen. There is no moving forward with sticking to that this generation. And you only talk about precomputed graphics because NOT using them cost too much for these consoles. Not because that's what looks better.

High quality assets isn't going to use much more compute than low quality assets

 

[skneogaf]

So far it's been 60fps instead of 30fps

 

[RoadHazard]

If devs keep chasing native 4K (or 120fps) he's right, we won't see massive improvements in pure visuals because so much power is going into just pushing all those pixels. Hopefully they don't.

A 1440p30 game with good upscaling can definitely show a really big leap over what was possible before. See the UE5 demo.

 

[JLB]

DeepEnigma : VFXVeteran redeemed?

 

[DeepEnigma]

DeepEnigma : VFXVeteran redeemed?

 

[JLB]

Definitely you are not Argentinian hah.

 

[VFXVeteran]

High quality assets isn't going to use much more compute than low quality assets

That depends on the compute shader.

For example, If I have an asset that has 20k triangles and using the SSD makes me have 40k triangles, then for a shader that is dependent on a 3D coordinate frame for computing lighting, I'm going to need 2x the amount of normals, bitangents and tangents for each of the verts. My pixel shaders *can* run 2x as long. That's why the less triangles you have to render, the faster the render.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Definitely you are not Argentinian hah.

 

[Elcid]

Clearly these people haven't seen Demon Souls. You all are talking about Naughty Dog, but wait until Guerilla releases Horizon 2, or even SuckerPunch with whatever oooooh boi.

 

[onQ123]

That depends on the compute shader.

For example, If I have an asset that has 20k triangles and using the SSD makes me have 40k triangles, then for a shader that is dependent on a 3D coordinate frame for computing lighting, I'm going to need 2x the amount of normals, bitangents and tangents for each of the verts. My pixel shaders *can* run 2x as long. That's why the less triangles you have to render, the faster the render.

Yeah but 20K triangles for a high quality model isn't going to us 2X the processing as 20K triangles for a low quality model.

 

[Fbh]

To be honest, if this new gen ends up offering games with similar visuals as last gen (ps4/Xb1) but at higher resolution, with 60fps modes, faster loading and maybe some better physics and things like that then I'm 100% fine with that.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

No reason we can't see a PS3 to PS4 leap here. If developers put the budget in the right places i.e. not all in resolution and make use of mesh / primitive shaders and SSDs we will end up seeing some truly amazing games.

Blooper should speak for themselves.

Imagine an inept dev speaking on behalf of the generation. We've already seen what to expect from PS5 at least.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

It doesn't matter. That looks ludicrously good, a quantum leap from last gen. And despite the amazing tech, it was running in 1440p30, so...

We have ALREADY seen that a 4K30 target is enough for a leap like Ratchet & Clank. That's a BIG jump. It looks fucking excellent. And it's still basically the only game made from the ground up for next gen that we've really seen. Things will only get way better from here.

So this talk that we won't get much improvement is just fucking bollocks.

Isn't 4k a few million more pixels than 1080p? Please correct me if I'm wrong. That counts as a jump.

 

[Kimahri]

Unless you're those huge aaa studios with infinite amounts of money chasing even better graphics is nonsense at this point.

The key areas I feel are important is iq, fps and the lighting models used. How insane the textural and polygonal detail is on everything isn't something I pay much attention to.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Yeah but 20K triangles for a high quality model isn't going to us 2X the processing as 20K triangles for a low quality model.

Define "high" and "low" quality models. I define them as directly dependent on the number of triangles (i.e. 20k triangles after optimizing the model from Zbrush compared to 40k triangles after the same optimization). The lower poly count model would be "low" quality and the 40k poly count would be the "high".

 

[VFXVeteran]

Both PS5 and XSX CPUs should be able to run Star Citizen's scale at useable frame rates.

Yup. I was never impressed with Star Citizen. It's not doing anything any other studio can't do.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Clearly these people haven't seen Demon Souls. You all are talking about Naughty Dog, but wait until Guerilla releases Horizon 2, or even SuckerPunch with whatever oooooh boi.

Right.. always the PS devs that can do it while the other 90% of game developers across the world are stuck in their sandboxes ignorant as to how to make really beautiful games with their crappy multiplatform engines.

 

[CobraXT]

Its not about the hardware anymore it's about the manpower required to make games with
better graphics compared to what we get now, i dont see it possible to create full game
with assets like UE5 demo quality, we will see better lightning and performance but not
better geometry and textures or at least not significantly better

 

[onQ123]

Define "high" and "low" quality models. I define them as directly dependent on the number of triangles (i.e. 20k triangles after optimizing the model from Zbrush compared to 40k triangles after the same optimization). The lower poly count model would be "low" quality and the 40k poly count would be the "high".

I'm talking about what is being rendered to the screen like if the full model of the low quality model is 20K triangles vs a higher model that can have 20K triangles in just the head it's not going to cost you more rendering time to render the 20K head as it would the 20K full body.

 

[Elcid]

Right.. always the PS devs that can do it while the other 90% of game developers across the world are stuck in their sandboxes ignorant as to how to make really beautiful games with their crappy multiplatform engines.

Who really can compare to the devs named above?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Who really can compare to the devs named above?

You mentioned a Sony dev in good light, prepare for the wall of obsession.

 

[mckmas8808]

Well considering that the last generation was basically shackled by CPU, technically we won't see anything new with the exception of RT.
I think this time we will chase QoL changes like faster loading times, higher framerate.

This dev is wrong. And we'll see him being wrong by other top dev teams in a couple years.

I hight doubt we will see an actual game that looks that good.

Of course we will. This is what Jim Ryan was talking about. It'll happen in 2022. We KNOW this for a fact. Lets stop being ignorant and acting as if we are all 14 years old. We're old enough to know how this works by now.

 

[mckmas8808]

Console need to:

Entirely drop rtx until midgen refresh or next-next gen.
Find a dlss type of solution to get 4kinda without wasting too much resources
Stay at 30 frames


To get a generation jump in fidelity.
Not ideal, but what can you do??

We all saw this and were wowed.

I'm not sure why 1440p at 30 fps, all of a sudden is not "ideal". Again in motion, it wowed basically everyone.


And it wasn't just some small corridor either. Remember this?

 

[Allandor]

We all saw this and were wowed.

I'm not sure why 1440p at 30 fps, all of a sudden is not "ideal". Again in motion, it wowed basically everyone.


And it wasn't just some small corridor either. Remember this?

All the sudden?
There is a difference if you look a "movie" or your character is reacting to a controller.
And again, this is a tech demo. A full game made like this would be incredible expensive (after all someone has to design this) and would not fit on the consoles drive.

 

[JLB]

We all saw this and were wowed.

I'm not sure why 1440p at 30 fps, all of a sudden is not "ideal". Again in motion, it wowed basically everyone.


And it wasn't just some small corridor either. Remember this?

Yet that thing was not 4k -not a big deal- and just 30fps (deal breaker). Also, thats a demo. On a real videogame, theres AI, menus, NPCs, etc etc etc.