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Opinion Game Dev Platform Xbox Series S Could Present Challenges For Future Titles, Says Chief Technical Officer Of 4A Games

dcmk7

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ID Software Principal Engine Programmer, Axel Gneiting, has already answered this question:

"Also "it always scaled on PC" is nonsense. Every AAA game in the past decade or so has their assets made once so they run on min spec. Increasing sample counts a bit here and there for high settings isn't what you could truly have done with more power. Min spec matters."

Developer opinions don't matter around here.
 

Panajev2001a

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The most embarrassing part is people hating on a product they don't want and has no impact on their life. Figured the PS5 would bring joy to people's life but as @Concern said "I don't love my favorite console I just hate yours."


Good for you bro. The fact still remains a person could not get more game console for less money than the XSS and 'poor gamers', casual gamers, kids, and people who just want something they can toss in a bag and travel with have an inexpensive game console that will be supported for years to come. You might not like that but thankfully they didn't ask you. More options are good for gamers and that is what matters.

If you talk about gamers wanting something portable and with tons of games you know they have a better option than that called Switch once you also factor in the gaming library, right?

It does not matter that it is somewhat powerful and somewhat cheap (it is still well above $200, stop the hard sell on how cheap it is :p), it does not change that while this is what MS wants to sell that it becomes a good idea or good for the platform.

This option is actually hurting the Xbox platform and lowers the baseline for titles coming to my XSX (even the exclusive ones) unless I need to hope that those devs start letting performance drop in the 20’s FPS range and resolution around 720p or less on XSS not to limit the XSX potential.
 

DarkMage619

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XSS has an impact on my XSX, you are being disingenuous by keeping on insisting it does not IMHO... you know it does affect it.
Prove it. Show the games that the XSS, not low end PCs are holding back games. You know the complaints are just potshots from people who don't like Xbox generally as a brand.

Who?

Hating a product. No.

I hate that developers find themselves frustrated and having to spend time making compromises for it. So much so that they vent their frustrations publicly.

Rather than getting on with their jobs which is making games they are passionate about.

You making light of their struggles just smacks of ignorance.
Who is making light of their 'struggles'. MS will have the same problems and if there is an issue with XSS development, MS has developer outreach to assist. Plus the better the XSS game the better the XSX and PC variants too. Unified development is a thing. Complaining to Twitter will yield less useful results.
 
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dvdvideo

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ID Software Principal Engine Programmer, Axel Gneiting, has already answered this question:

"Also "it always scaled on PC" is nonsense. Every AAA game in the past decade or so has their assets made once so they run on min spec. Increasing sample counts a bit here and there for high settings isn't what you could truly have done with more power. Min spec matters."

Thank you for making my point by mistake.
What you are missing here is the minimum spec in this case is clearly pc (or in some cases even ps4, xbox one, switch), not xss.
 

DarkMage619

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If you talk about gamers wanting something portable and with tons of games you know they have a better option than that called Switch once you also factor in the gaming library, right?

It does not matter that it is somewhat powerful and somewhat cheap (it is still well above $200, stop the hard sell on how cheap it is :p), it does not change that while this is what MS wants to sell that it becomes a good idea or good for the platform.

This option is actually hurting the Xbox platform and lowers the baseline for titles coming to my XSX (even the exclusive ones) unless I need to hope that those devs start letting performance drop in the 20’s FPS range and resolution around 720p or less on XSS not to limit the XSX potential.
Again PROVE IT. No matter how many times this is said doesn't make it true. I haven't seen any evidence that XSS developed games are even using the features of the console to address its shortcomings. Thankfully they will have plenty of time to get acquainted with those features and I'm certain MS will help. By the way what games on the XSS run at 20 fps?
 
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dcmk7

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Prove it. Show the games that the XSS, not low end PCs are holding back games. You know the complaints are just potshots from people who don't like Xbox generally as a brand.


Who is making light of their 'struggles'. MS will have the same problems and if there is an issue with XSS development, MS has developer outreach to assist. Plus the better the XSS game the better the XSX and PC variants too. Unified development is a thing. Complaining to Twitter will yield less useful results.
What on earth does this even mean?
 
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Panajev2001a

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Prove it. Show the games that the XSS, not low end PCs are holding back games. You know the complaints are just potshots from people who don't like Xbox generally as a brand.

If you mean people that are not willing to market a product for the company in a very astroturfy way yeah well, I am in that category... sorry I cannot be in your real Xbox fan club because I got OG Xbox near launch, Xbox 360 at launch, and XSX at launch, always had a great Windows Vista experience, and said publicly that I think Windows New Testament was one of the severa key computing revolutions in the last 30 years... but yes, I never bought into the Xbox One generation and I am not willing to say that XSS is a good product.

The games is not sold once for all platform, PC versions are separate SKU’s and sold separately sometimes not even day and date as console releases anymore. XSX titles must run on the XSS and cannot be sold separately and/or at a later for XSS.

When new consoles arrive and start selling in decent numbers the recommended specs on PC’s tend to jump to match, but in this case you have the spanner in the works called XSS creating an additional mandatory support platform that no devs can skip nor suggest as being below minimum or recommended specs: neither MS first party nor third parties. The beautiful bit of consoles and the positive side of being a closed box, PC’s are great because they are open and expandable, is that the fixed specs can be relied on by developers and this intimacy allows the HW to punch above its weight.

If a well optimised later generation game were to push the XSX to 30 FPS and 1440p or less based on its projected design welcome to either this ambition cut or several major cuts happening on the visuals if possible. Min Specs Matter.
 

MonarchJT

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If you talk about gamers wanting something portable and with tons of games you know they have a better option than that called Switch once you also factor in the gaming library, right?

It does not matter that it is somewhat powerful and somewhat cheap (it is still well above $200, stop the hard sell on how cheap it is :p), it does not change that while this is what MS wants to sell that it becomes a good idea or good for the platform.

This option is actually hurting the Xbox platform and lowers the baseline for titles coming to my XSX (even the exclusive ones) unless I need to hope that those devs start letting performance drop in the 20’s FPS range and resolution around 720p or less on XSS not to limit the XSX potential.
i think that they did know about super resolution (that they developed lol) and the ML capability in their console. They will use it later in the gen so I expect them to arrive also at 540p --> ML --> 1080p that's what will presumably it will happen
 
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Panajev2001a

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Double post.
Nope, min specs referred to is not the PC but XSS:
 

Panajev2001a

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i think that they did know about super resolution (that they developed lol) and the ML capability in their console. They will use it later in the gen so I expect them to arrive also at 540p --> ML --> 1080p that's what will presumably it will happen

Maybe, but I am not sure 540 or so will look as great as 1440p could scale to 4K when reconstructed. Also, I would not compare nVIDIA’s second generation DLSS dedicated array of optimised Tensor Cores vs AMD’s first generation scaling technique using rapid packed math on the same shader core that needs to process graphics too.
 

longdi

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im thinking of impacting but then i see games like witcher 3 and imortal fenix running on switch, basically a super old nvidia shield, I'm not sure there will be.
games seem to scale real well in terms of graphics.

SS has that Ssd and cpu, so the core game design will run the same
 

RaySoft

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Except the part you are missing here is the vast majority of series x games are already being made for pc, so having to develop for the xss makes zero difference to any game being made.

..and you obviously missed the last sentence in my post?
MS is playing the PC game this gen, while Sony still believes in console generations. (i.e. fixed hardware)
 
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dvdvideo

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Nope, min specs referred to is not the PC but XSS:

He says it "drags down the min spec for next gen console" but makes zero mention of how pc spec drags down the overall min spec. It's not like they have 2 teams making two separate games. Please compare min spec pc to xss. PC loses, and will for some time. Same games, same dev teams, all trying to get all to work.
I'll say this one last time so you can get it.

For multiplatform games where a pc version is being made:

PC min spec is a weaker platform than XSS. It's a fact. Check it for yourself.

That is unless they are also making an even weaker switch, xbox, or ps4 version, but I digress, you just don't get it.
 
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dcmk7

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He says it "drags down the min spec for next gen console" but makes zero mention of how pc spec drags down the overall min spec. It's not like they have 2 teams making two separate games. Please compare min spec pc to xss. PC loses, and will for some time. Same games, same dev teams, all trying to get all to work.
I'll say this one last time so you can get it.

For multiplatform games where a pc version is being made:

PC min spec is a weaker platform than XSS. It's a fact. Check it for yourself.

That is unless they are also making an even weaker switch, xbox, or ps4 version, but I digress, you just don't get it.

This CTO is having specific issues with XSS. So go figure.
 
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mrmeh

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It will be interesting to see in five years if this is a thing.. there are other much bigger issues that I can see happening that will cause short and long term problems for this generation.
  • Raytracing is very basic on all the next gen consoles, RT Global illumination is a big win for dev's as the art team doesn't have to spend silly amounts of time baking lighting in to textures. Going to be harder for Dev's to move to RT GI on consoles as the gen develops.
  • It is currently very difficult to acquire RT PC hardware and with another crypto boom it may prohibitively expensive to do so. Currently there is no light at the end of the tunnel.
  • As Microsoft alluded to Next gen hardware may not come down in price much over time. This will limit uptake and make cross gen titles still common further in to this gen, maybe on Xbox the cheaper S helps this... if they can make enough.
I'm not sure MS see's gens anymore, maybe they just release a new console every five years and the Xbox eco system works like upgrading a PC and games just run worse on older hardware. Also Take a game like Dirt 5 which has a new engine to take advantage of next gen consoles and yet still does not look better than last gen games. I also doubt most new non AAA games will look better than last gens AAA showcases so I would also see money as a major factor holding ultimate eye candy from reaching you.
 
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skit_data

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People talking about ”its always been scaled for pc” have never had to upgrade their PC-parts to even get a game to boot.

There are also ”minimum specs” and ”recommended specs”. Now I hope for everyones sake that Xbox want to provide their customers with at least a ”recommended specs” experience. On PC you can always get away with the ”minimum requirements experience” as a developer, but im pretty sure console gamers will be pretty pissed if they buy a game and it looks like it ran on a ”minimum requirements”-pc.
 

RaySoft

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He says it "drags down the min spec for next gen console" but makes zero mention of how pc spec drags down the overall min spec. It's not like they have 2 teams making two separate games. Please compare min spec pc to xss. PC loses, and will for some time. Same games, same dev teams, all trying to get all to work.
I'll say this one last time so you can get it.

For multiplatform games where a pc version is being made:

PC min spec is a weaker platform than XSS. It's a fact. Check it for yourself.

That is unless they are also making an even weaker switch, xbox, or ps4 version, but I digress, you just don't get it.
He's talking about next-gen games, not currentgen ports. PC req. will be higher than they are today, leaving the XSS being the weakest platform.
 

DemonCleaner

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i think that they did know about super resolution (that they developed lol) and the ML capability in their console. They will use it later in the gen so I expect them to arrive also at 540p --> ML --> 1080p that's what will presumably it will happen

Going by dlss that would look really bad.
 

DarkMage619

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If you mean people that are not willing to market a product for the company in a very astroturfy way yeah well, I am in that category... sorry I cannot be in your real Xbox fan club because I got OG Xbox near launch, Xbox 360 at launch, and XSX at launch, always had a great Windows Vista experience, and said publicly that I think Windows New Testament was one of the severa key computing revolutions in the last 30 years... but yes, I never bought into the Xbox One generation and I am not willing to say that XSS is a good product.

The games is not sold once for all platform, PC versions are separate SKU’s and sold separately sometimes not even day and date as console releases anymore. XSX titles must run on the XSS and cannot be sold separately and/or at a later for XSS.

When new consoles arrive and start selling in decent numbers the recommended specs on PC’s tend to jump to match, but in this case you have the spanner in the works called XSS creating an additional mandatory support platform that no devs can skip nor suggest as being below minimum or recommended specs: neither MS first party nor third parties. The beautiful bit of consoles and the positive side of being a closed box, PC’s are great because they are open and expandable, is that the fixed specs can be relied on by developers and this intimacy allows the HW to punch above its weight.

If a well optimised later generation game were to push the XSX to 30 FPS and 1440p or less based on its projected design welcome to either this ambition cut or several major cuts happening on the visuals if possible. Min Specs Matter.
Sounds like the XSS isn't for you bro. I bought an XSX myself. I care about 4k and I have a 4k television. I want high fidelity graphics. Still no matter how many Sony fans dislike anything MS does does not make it astrotruf to like that MS is trying to broaden the base of people who can get into console gaming. You haven't presented any options for for a cheaper way to get more gaming power. Everyone keeps saying how MS could have spent more money and made the box more powerful like the XSX doesn't exist for people with deeper pockets.

The XSS IS a good product mainly because it had the same features the XSX has minus the optical drive. You don't like the XSS don't buy one I didn't but to act like the XSS will somehow affect the XSX or PS5. That is silly. The compromise will come in graphics and that is already known.

Have developers used the features available to them with the XSS? Velocity architecture, VRS, or SFS? Have developers contacted MS for support? On top of that how does this impact the XSX? The developer on this very thread DIDN'T say the XSX version of the game is bring held back. Fanboys did. The only thing held back are graphics on the XSS and wow I'm stunned. I was sure it would be the platform of no compromises despite no one ever said that.
 
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dcmk7

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Sounds like the XSS isn't for you bro. I bought an XSX myself. I care about 4k and I have a 4k television. I want high fidelity graphics. Still no matter how many Sony fans dislike anything MS does does not make it astrotruf to like that MS is trying to broaden the base of people who can get into console gaming. You haven't presented any options for for a cheaper way to get more bang for your buck. Everyone keeps saying how MS could have spent more money and made the box more powerful like the XSX doesn't exist for people with deeper pockets.

The XSS IS a good product mainly because it had the same features the XSX has minus the optical drive. You don't like the XSS don't buy one I didn't but to act like the XSS will somehow affect the XSX or PS5 is silly. The compromise will come in graphics and that is already known.

Have developers used the features available to them with the XSS? Velocity architecture, VRS, or SFS? Have developers contacted MS for support? On top of that how does this impact the XSX? The developer on this very thread DIDN'T say the XSX version of the game is bring held back. Fanboys did. The only thing held back are graphics on the XSS and wow I'm stunned. I was sure it would be the platform of no compromises despite no one ever said that.
Why are you obsessed with arguing against people who are concerned with what they are hearing from developers? If you don't agree. Don't respond. You have your view and others have theirs. They are not fanboys because they think differently. Damn dude :messenger_tears_of_joy: .

We are simply discussing the answers from a CFO of a gaming company, I don't understand why you felt compelled to come in here hysterical screeching about FUD, fanboys and agendas, without any evidence at all by the way.

You don't program the system after all, these developers actually do, you have no authority on what's achievable to them or not? Or how difficult the job is?

Dismissing their struggles as 'his own fault should contact Microsoft' (I'm paraphrasing but that's the jist of what youve been saying) is beyond ignorant. Just shows how entrenched you really are in your fanboy ways.

I like everyone, can only rely on what's been put into the public domain by people in the know, such as this guys interview.. hence the discussion.
 

DarkMage619

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Why are you obsessed with arguing against people who are concerned with what they are hearing from developers? If you don't agree. Don't respond. You have your view and others have theirs. They are not fanboys because they think differently. Damn dude :messenger_tears_of_joy: .

We are simply discussing the answers from a CFO of a gaming company, I don't understand why you felt compelled to come in here hysterical screeching about FUD, fanboys and agendas, without any evidence at all by the way.

You don't program the system after all, these developers actually do, you have no authority on what's achievable to them or not? Or how difficult the job is?

Dismissing their struggles as 'his own fault should contact Microsoft' (I'm paraphrasing but that's the jist of what youve been saying) is beyond ignorant. Just shows how entrenched you really are in your fanboy ways.

I like everyone, can only rely on what's been put into the public domain by people in the know, such as this guys interview.. hence the discussion.
It's not real concern it's 'concern'. People are making a false narrative that developers are complaining about being unable to realize their creative vision because of the XSS and that is nonsense. Developers are complaining about not being able to run games on the XSS the way they want to despite not using the features of the platform. Perhaps just perhaps they should contact the platform owner for support and use the features of the console.

I do appreciate your name calling though it's always a sign of confidence in your argument. The fanboys are people who don't own the console complaining about something that has no affect on them at all.

Like I said if you don't want a XSS don't buy one but I'm good with the min spec being a Zen2 , SSD, RDNA2 GPU having box with ML support. Developers may not be able to do 4k on it but I'm certain they will be able to make fantastic games regardless. Red Dead Redemption 2 ran on an X1 yet the XSS is unable to run games? Get out of here.
 
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dcmk7

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It's not real concern it's 'concern'. People are making a false narrative that developers are complaining about being unable to realize their creative vision because of the XSS and that is nonsense. Developers are complaining about not being able to run games on the XSS the way they want to despite not using the features of the platform. Perhaps just perhaps they should contact the platform owner for support and use the features of the console.

I do appreciate your name calling though it's always a sign of confidence in your argument.

Like I said if you don't want a XSS don't buy one but I'm good with the min spec being a Zen2 , SSD, RDNA2 GPU having box with ML support. Developers may not be able to do 4k on it but I'm certain they will be able to make fantastic games regardless. Red Dead Redemption 2 ran on an X1 yet the XSS is unable to run games? Get out of here.

Show me the proof that they havent, how do you know that? It suits your ignorant agenda to believe that.

The fanboys are people who don't own the console complaining about something that has no affect on them at all.

It really isn't :messenger_tears_of_joy: . But I love that you seriously believe that.

Like I said if you don't want a XSS don't buy one but I'm good with the min spec being a Zen2 , SSD, RDNA2 GPU having box with ML support. Developers may not be able to do 4k on it but I'm certain they will be able to make fantastic games regardless. Red Dead Redemption 2 ran on an X1 yet the XSS is unable to run games? Get out of here.

That's great to hear.

What part of that ramble is relevant? How exactly does that relate, at all, to the CFO having a difficult time with the XSS exactly.

Which is what the thread is about, stop trying to derail.
 
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dvdvideo

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He's talking about next-gen games, not currentgen ports. PC req. will be higher than they are today, leaving the XSS being the weakest platform.

"Next gen" games coming out this year and the next couple after that aren't going to move the minimum pc spec by much, but you can dream if you want. They are still going to support some older cpu's, slower hard drives, and 1050's.
 
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skit_data

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People just like to ignore other developers who have said just the opposite, developers of Dirt 5, Ori and Scorn said they had no problems.
An arcade racer, a sidescrolling metroidvania and a slow moving fps isnt really the kind of genres that run the risk of being limited by Series S. Those have been around for almost 30 years.

What might run the risk of being impeded are things that couldve been.
 
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CamHostage

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He says it "drags down the min spec for next gen console" but makes zero mention of how pc spec drags down the overall min spec...

For multiplatform games where a pc version is being made:

PC min spec is a weaker platform than XSS. It's a fact. Check it for yourself.

Today. But as developers move onto next-gen engines and experiment with next-gen approaches to rendering games, the minimum spec will be pushed. And according to the quoted CTO of 4A Games, the cutoff for minimum specs will be sharper than it's been in the past, because it's not just a matter of setting sliders all the way down or turning graphical features off. The core technology of these approaches either can't go any further down or it will be suffer an logarithmic drop due to requirements of a certain performance level across time of a "high spatial and temporal resolution" renderer.

When that threshold is crossed, PC gamers will have to buy new hardware (which they are used to, and with next-gen consoles now mandating SSDs and pushing the baseline, the PC audience is already preparing to upgrade if they haven't already, despite the market problems that MrMeh pointed out.) and the Xbox Series S will have to be contended with by the publisher.

Hopefully, Xbox Series S still perform within that threshold and be fine. (It is a good machine for the time and the price, and although Microsoft took a risk here, they did the math to give it the best possible shot at a smooth future.) If not, developers will have to figure something out. They may have to port the game to a custom XSS build (which will be curious to see how that works,) they may have to switch to streaming the game to XSS owners, they may have to cut back on those techniques (the worst option) to keep the scaling curve in between XSS and XSX
 
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DarkMage619

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Show me the proof that they havent, how do you know that? It suits your ignorant agenda to believe that.



It really isn't :messenger_tears_of_joy: . But I love that you seriously believe that.



That's great to hear.

What part of that ramble is relevant? How exactly does that relate, at all, to the CFO having a difficult time with the XSS exactly.

Which is what the thread is about, stop trying to derail.
Show me the proof the XSS is holding back the XSX. My 'agenda' is to push back against the lame narrative that the XSS is somehow interfering with developers ability to make games for the XSX. The only thing ignorant is people complaining about something that does not affect them. Again is this developer using ANY of the features of the console he is talking about? We've already put to bed that his complaints were about how the XSX is being held back.
 
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CamHostage

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im thinking of impacting but then i see games like witcher 3 and imortal fenix running on switch, basically a super old nvidia shield, I'm not sure there will be.
games seem to scale real well in terms of graphics.

SS has that Ssd and cpu, so the core game design will run the same

I would say though that there's a distinction with Witcher 3, that "it" is not running on a Switch; a version of "it" is running on a Switch.

They ported it down and changed it drastically, at a different game studio, across a year in development just on that version (albeit with a fraction of the team needed to build and optimize the original.) It's a great and accurate facsimile, but I think most people would point to the CDPR builds of the game as being the "original" (even if there are 3 different platform variants of the CDRP work, plus a ton of scaling options in the PC version,) and the Switch version being its own fork.

Things do get kind of hinky with modern game engines in discussing ports and optimizations and scaling. (Back in the day, it was pretty clear visually and in gameplay that two versions of a game were made differently for each platform, but now you just build a game in like Unreal Engine and kind of don't even think about the hardware it'll play on* until it is time to put it out...) With something like Witcher 3 though, the enormity of the conversion seems to mark a clear break from it just being the same game running on much worse hardware with a few dials turned down: "When the initial port was done, the game was running at 10 frames per second, was taking 50 per cent more memory than the Switch has, and the build size was 20GB larger than the biggest Switch cartridge". Lots of ground-up work had to go into making some kind of Switch version of the game, and given some very smart choices, it feels like a lo-fi version of the same game even though it has been changed a ton.


(*BTW, probably I just made some developers throw a pen at their screens in anger over a gross assumption of the engine compiler process, but it's not like back in the PS1 days where you had to plan on Day One for your game to star an "orange" character because the console rendered orange better than other colors!)

Of course, the Switch hardware is still much, much, much less than the Xbox Series S, and XSS should be able to handle even advanced next-gen games for a while. But the discussion here is about the worry of when a game engine might come along that pushes that threshold. And when that happens, what will the developer do with Xbox Series S? Will they give XSS a full year of redevelopment if it needs it like Witcher 3 Switch did? Will Xbox gamers accept any gap in release? (Imagine you buy an Xbox Series X game and plug it into your S and it says, "This game is coming soon to Xbox Series S...") Will they hire an external studio or build a small internal team and have them port an XSS version alongside the main XSX version? (That's the way a lot of multiplatform games were done in the 360/X1 transition, and still are done today for a number of multiplatform titles, but cost and time and quality would be factors.) And will Xbox Series game discs let you put two builds of the game in the box? (Many of the assets should be shared, I don't believe there's a renderer yet that would totally change how you'd texture a scene, but it could? Audio is already changing with next-gen tech, maybe graphics will too.) How long do you maintain patches for the two different platform versions? It's all a question.

Again, hopefully, Xbox Series S will be just fine, and it's all a lot of worry over clouds that never roll overhead. But there's never been a console gen quite like this one, and the future is not yet determined.
 
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DarkMage619

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Again, hopefully, Xbox Series S will be just fine, and it's all a lot of worry over clouds that never roll overhead. But there's never been a console gen quite like this one, and the future is not yet determined.
The X1 was supported for 7 years. It had GDDR 3 RAM. That RAM was outdated at launch! It is still getting games to this very day. Developers managed to put out great games for it even though it was not well designed. Yet the XSS a system head and shoulders above the X1 won't make it possibly the next few months? All the pearl clutching is pretty ridiculous.
 
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DustQueen

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4A dreaming of killing rasterized elements of their render for a long time and demand that real time calculations put on your GPU not always can be downscaled with resolution, some of em ll eat up as much GPU performance on SX as it will on SS...and yeah...it is a problem.
N now I am gonna go n play something awesome on my Series S
 
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RaySoft

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"Next gen" games coming out this year and the next couple after that aren't going to move the minimum pc spec by much, but you can dream if you want. They are still going to support some older cpu's, slower hard drives, and 1050's.
Does it really matter how long it takes for a proper nextgen game to hit? Its comming either way, and the XSS will be an anoyance for devs in the end.

MS have to support that box for this whole gen. and so must all devs that want to make games for their consoles. PS5 is the only true fixed hardware this gen, so far.
 

CamHostage

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The X1 was supported for 7 years. It had GDDR 3 RAM. That RAM was outdated at launch! It is still getting games to this very day. Developers managed to put out great games for it even though it was not well designed. Yet the XSS a system head and shoulders above the X1 won't make it possibly the next few months? All the pearl clutching is pretty ridiculous.

If you're so confident that concerns voiced by the CTO of the Metro series and an Engine Programmer of ID Software aren't worth discussing, then you don't have to be here. There are tons of other topics to post about on GAF. Developers are going to approach Xbox Series S development how they do it, with or without us blabbing about it on a forum, and you will have stuff to play no matter what. (I'm not that worried myself, I don't currently have a Series S, so I'm only checking into the topic as an interesting challenge of next-gen development.) But if you want to discuss the topic, discuss the topic. Jumping on people with a handwave, "It'll be fine, everything was fine before so everything will always be fine," that's not what two experienced developers at major game design studios are saying about the tech of this specific generation.

Xbox One S was and is today still supported. It's struggling with the more advanced games (CoD MW and AC Valhalla and Grounded are hovering in the 720p range but they made it, even Cyberpunk is kind of playable on it,) but it'll still play games made for the Xbox One ecosystem. And one way or another, Xbox Series S should continue to play games made for the Xbox Series ecosystem. But a time may come where developers will have to figure out how to make that happen, and these two developers are saying that, with the tech they are working towards, the time is coming.
 
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killatopak

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If devs can fit games like doom and witcher 3 on switch I have zero issues with the Series S
Games that have released long before the Switch or have serious cutbacks.

Games have always had moving tech requirement. Try fitting Cyberpunk on Switch now.
 

FrankWza

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Today. But as developers move onto next-gen engines and experiment with next-gen approaches to rendering games, the minimum spec will be pushed.
They presented it with a higher ceiling than they can maintain now, it won’t get better. The problem too is the floor is lower than it should be. 720p? Even the medium, which was to be their first big next gen exclusive was sub 30 FPS and wasnt able to maintain 1080p in single screen mode.
once you make any points about it’s technical limitations you get the old
“It’s not for you it’s for...”
So it’s a budget console? But it’s $300
Oh but, you can get gamepass and as many games as you want to play.
But it has 300gb of usable storage and it’s $200 to upgrade.
Well, at least I can buy some cheap discs and save money vs digital. Nope, there’s no disc drive.

You basically need to fill out a questionnaire if you’re interested in buying one to see if you qualify. That’s how specific a customer needs to be about what they’re looking to buy.
 

CamHostage

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Games that have released long before the Switch or have serious cutbacks.

Games have always had moving tech requirement. Try fitting Cyberpunk on Switch now.

Well, any pair of shoes is one-size-fits-all, provided you've got a hacksaw and some painkillers...

To be less gross about it, yes and no on your point. If look at the demake community (although a lot of those are just cinematics, not playable,) and you can see that anything can be "ported" or converted or reimagined for lesser-yet-capable hardware if you're willing to compromise enough, have the ideas to reinterpret how it works, and have the time to rewrite everything...


(*This isn't a community-made "demake", BTW, it was going to be a professionally-produced Halo port/side-game for the original DS. Same kind of thing though.)

But yeah, the point is, they could fit Cyberpunk onto Switch or phones or whatever, but it would have to be a big rework. They did fit it onto the much more capable Xbox One S, but even there, it was a disaster.

It'll hopefully be a long time (if it even ever comes?) before Xbox Series S needs as much dedicated work to keep up with future software, but that's the bet that Microsoft gambled on when producing a budget version of its next-gen console.
 
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CamHostage

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Does it really matter how long it takes for a proper nextgen game to hit? Its comming either way, and the XSS will be an anoyance for devs in the end.

I agree, but then again, Xbox Series S is selling well, so unless a real next-gen tech comes along that roadblocks XSS without a major overhaul, that annoyance will have been worth it if ultimately the games remain nicely profitable and able to be maintained. If there's money in it, it's worth the headaches. But will there always be money in it?

I didn't know this, but apparently Xbox Live already has separate builds of games made for Xbox One X and Xbox One S. (Not sure how different the games can get, doews anybody have insight on examples of this?) So even last gen, they were forking the products for the two major Xbox lines.

It would not be ideal though if the Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S versions started to become totally different. A little bit of change in each copy is fine, but if you have XSX using a next-gen renderer and XSS has to be remade with an old technique, having to deploy patches for two totally different versions of the game would probably leave one version unpatched or lagging behind if the effort stops being worth it.
 
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DarkMage619

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If you're so confident that concerns voiced by the CTO of the Metro series and an Engine Programmer of ID Software aren't worth discussing, then you don't have to be here. There are tons of other topics to post about on GAF. Developers are going to approach Xbox Series S development how they do it, with or without us blabbing about it on a forum, and you will have stuff to play no matter what. (I'm not that worried myself, I don't currently have a Series S, so I'm only checking into the topic as an interesting challenge of next-gen development.) But if you want to discuss the topic, discuss the topic. Jumping on people with a handwave, "It'll be fine, everything was fine before so everything will always be fine," that's not what two experienced developers at major game design studios are saying about the tech of this specific generation.

Xbox One S was and is today still supported. It's struggling with the more advanced games (CoD MW and AC Valhalla and Grounded are hovering in the 720p range but they made it, even Cyberpunk is kind of playable on it,) but it'll still play games made for the Xbox One ecosystem. And one way or another, Xbox Series S should continue to play games made for the Xbox Series ecosystem. But a time may come where developers will have to figure out how to make that happen, and these two developers are saying that, with the tech they are working towards, the time is coming.
Hi there CamHostage CamHostage I see you are a long time Gaffer so I am sure you are aware there is there absolutely no shortage of negative Xbox threads. Whether it is Gamepass, XSX, XSS, Phil Spencer, Halo, Gears, you name it, someone has a negative take on the Xbox. Positive topics quickly turn into negative take threads. My main man FrankWza FrankWza can always be counted on remind anyone who will listen that Gamepass has a major problem or an Xbox, in this case, the XSS is doomed for failure. I also reminded that just because someone dislikes Xbox or MS and knows little what they are talking about they have just as much right as anyone to spout as much negativity as they want. If people can pop in to predict doom and gloom I can pop in to push back with some positivity and reality. I know being negative makes you 'cool' and positive makes you a 'shill' but so be it. Plenty of Sony fans praise PS5 all day and they aren't called shills so that's... interesting. You seem to be a reasonable guy so lets be reasonable. Lets ask some questions about the XSS.
Because it's not the machine "being half powerful", it's just the GPU and we know what things manages a GPU and how can be optimized for less powerful systems (most of the time it scales to hell and back).

No features have to be redone for SS specifically because it has everything it needs inside to operate as a graphically weaker Series X.

Specs are public, what's not to be understood? Unless people saying "the console is 4TF" actually didn't know what they're talking about... hmmmm....
Is what Kataploom Kataploom said wrong? Can we point to any features the XSS is missing that would cause its well known graphical reductions to transcend its platform to move to other platforms?
Also next gen engines will take advantage of VRS, SFS and Mesh Shaders which Series S has hardware support for.
Resident hero Riky Riky makes a point we have yet to get a response to. Is this developer using all the features of either the XSS or XSX? Shouldn't those features be used BEFORE stating that there is a problem?

A GTX 1060 runs the MCC games at an average of 144 FPS @ 2560x1440p, the gpu in the 1X is more powerful than that so let’s not act like it CANT do these things.
This guy seems to think that the X1X has a more powerful GPU. Is this misconception the reason so many think the XSS will be 'holding back' next gen?
Again this would make zero difference on the xbox side as the developers are all making pc versions to lower spec than series xss. And probably 85% of the ps5 games too. I dont understand why people keep saying this.
Please explain how having one more spec when they are alreading coding for 1,435,456 pc variations matters. (Which by the way is much harder than one fixed platform)
How does this point fit in the narrative told by some here? Every MS published game is hitting PC. PC is known for NOT having a single spec to code to and game designed for it are scalable. We also know that the MS has created a development kit that allows multiple versions of a game to be coded simultaneously. If, the XSS with a Zen2 CPU, RT capable GPU, and SSD standard with every box, is too weak to run current gen games what do you think the min spec will actually be on PC then? Do you honestly believe the majority of gaming PCs out there have even better specs?
Nope, min specs referred to is not the PC but XSS:
I HAD to bring up P Panajev2001a post. Many Sony fans have this quote saved to bring up when ever the XSS is mentioned. I like it for a few reasons. One its pretty great that this guy will be actually working for MS so I'd LOVE to see how he feels about the platform from the inside. The interesting point is the date when it was made. If you look at Twitter you can find tons of comments made by people at one time that is no longer valid later on. Setting aside that he isn't even making the same complaint as the developer mentioned in this thread this gentleman was most likely not even using the full development kit for the Xbox GDK. 'Tools' are a meme now but it was always true that the GDK was not mature when the Xbox launched. I agree that minimum spec matters but I disagree that the XSS spec is far too weak to be a capable gaming device especially since we have already seen the X1 a console that is orders of magnitude weaker than the XSS was just fine even if it wasn't a great device.

By the time the XSS is fallen to where the X1 is now we will be in a new hardware generation and it will all be moot because everyone will be moving on. The complaints made by people who are known to have a slight anti MS bias aren't the best people to ask about anything relating to Xbox or MS. This developer in particular never made any claim other than XSS development will require extra effort. This is not news. The same website had this article: "Having a single Xbox SKU would be preferable but the XSS doesn't require too much extra work." Unsurprisingly Sony fans didn't care too much for this story but all latched on to the quasi-negative one. Shocking.

At the end of the day the XSS is a thing. It is real. People have it in their homes. Running to Twitter to complain will not improve the situation but working with MS and use all the available features will. I do sympathize with anyone having to do extra work and it is incumbent upon MS to ensure devs are support but the XSS remains a fantastic console for gamers on a budget. MS as a developer will have to deal with all the same issues as 3rd parties so perhaps they can all put their heads together and figure it out. For years in the PC space manufactures tried to cater to people from all sort of financial backgrounds. I'm glad it's in the console space too.
 

dcmk7

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Show me the proof the XSS is holding back the XSX. My 'agenda' is to push back against the lame narrative that the XSS is somehow interfering with developers ability to make games for the XSX. The only thing ignorant is people complaining about something that does not affect them. Again is this developer using ANY of the features of the console he is talking about? We've already put to bed that his complaints were about how the XSX is being held back.

For a start "ignorant is people complaining about something that does not affect them" isn't what ignorant means.. you are also confused by what a fanboy is, so you're argument is going very well so far :messenger_tears_of_joy:.

Ignorant is stubbornly believing something without knowledge, which you don't even realise you're doing all the time.

You claim this game studio hasn't contacted MS support.. how do you know?

Question their technical skills, say they can/should be implementing X or Y. Again, how do you know what they have and haven't done? What proof do you have that they haven't?

It's just brazenly rude and disrespectful to these guys. More than one developer has made similiar, negative comments by the way.

It's a theme at this point.

But you dismiss him without any facts, without any tech knowledge, seemingly because he dared to make a negative about the little white box that you are obviously fond on.

Most bizarre is you start labeling people as fanboys because they sympathise with him and question what it means in the wider context of this generation.

Your contribution to this thread, from what I can see, is to slam users as fanboys with agendas.

You must be some sort of troll or just care very passionately about Microsoft, because you do this in every anti MS thread.
 
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Three

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The most embarrassing part is people hating on a product they don't want and has no impact on their life. Figured the PS5 would bring joy to people's life but as @Concern said "I don't love my favorite console I just hate yours."


Good for you bro. The fact still remains a person could not get more game console for less money than the XSS and 'poor gamers', casual gamers, kids, and people who just want something they can toss in a bag and travel with have an inexpensive game console that will be supported for years to come. You might not like that but thankfully they didn't ask you. More options are good for gamers and that is what matters.
Define "more console for less money". Bang for your buck is based on what?
Why are you trying to suggest the console is some kind of portable?

Prove it. Show the games that the XSS, not low end PCs are holding back games. You know the complaints are just potshots from people who don't like Xbox generally as a brand.

How would this be proven? Think logically about the catch-22. Do you expect a different game on more powerful consoles? Do you expect exclusives that don't release on Series S (not allowed if released on Series X). What sort of proof do you expect outside of developer comments.
 
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Three

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this gentleman was most likely not even using the full development kit for the Xbox GDK. 'Tools' are a meme now but it was always true that the GDK was not mature when the Xbox launched.

This is not news. The same website had this article:"Having a single Xbox SKU would be preferable but the XSS doesn't require too much extra work." Unsurprisingly Sony fans didn't care too much for this story but all latched on to the quasi-negative one. Shocking.

At the end of the day the XSS is a thing. It is real. People have it in their homes. Running to Twitter to complain will not improve the situation but working with MS and use all the available features will.
You have got to be kidding me with this "tools" thing. The id Tech engine developer gives you factual information 2 months from release and you're saying that's not valid because he didn't have the tools? Get out of here with that.

Want to know what's hilarious about the link you posted, in that very same article you have this quote from that other developer:

"The size of the memory that is available in the XSS is the actual determining point for the entire console generation as gameplay features have to be fitted to the lowest spec."

This guy has not learnt to use the tools either, XSS still not holding back the gen?
 
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dcmk7

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You have got to be kidding me with this "tools" thing. The id Tech engine developer gives you factual information 2 months from release and you're saying that's not valid because he didn't have the tools? Get out of here with that.

Want to know what's hilarious about the link you posted, in that very same article you have this quote from that other developer:

"The size of the memory that is available in the XSS is the actual determining point for the entire console generation as gameplay features have to be fitted to the lowest spec."

This guy has not learnt to use the tools either, XSS still not holding back the gen?
He does this thing all the time..

If you agree with the developer in the article, and you're 'concerned' you're a fanboy pushing an anti Xbox narrative. It's tedious as hell, and surprised he gets away with obvious trolling.

Notice how his goto move is to comment that the developer isn't using all the features, and should contact MS support. When he has no idea what they have implemented or what they have done.

Just pushing speculative, ignorant bullshit. And it's constant. When the only 'real' information provided is the quotes by the developer that it's proving troublesome.

Developers complaining about XSS is going to be more and more a thing, by the current trend.
 
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FrankWza

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My main man FrankWza FrankWza FrankWza FrankWza can always be counted on remind anyone who will listen that Gamepass has a major problem or an Xbox, in this case, the XSS is doomed for failure.
I said that about gamepass? I questioned how many subscribers were actually paying full price for it. Because there are many discounted deals and their numbers went up inexplicably.
As far as series s, I don’t think it offers the value proposition that it appears to have on the surface. If it’s a budget console it should have a disc drive because physical games are cheaper than digital. If it’s a gamepass machine we’ll see how it does when it’s stocked more plentiful and how it ties in with GP at full price if they ever stop the deals.
 
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DrAspirino

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If a well optimised later generation game were to push the XSX to 30 FPS and 1440p or less based on its projected design welcome to either this ambition cut or several major cuts happening on the visuals if possible. Min Specs Matter.
It depends.

For example, Microsoft had a Doom version running hybridly between local and cloud streaming asstes, with very little latency. It's called "project Kahawai" and was studied BEFORE xCloud.


What it basically means is that a game is stored locally with low quality assets, but the high quality assets and visuals are processed in cloud. This way loading times are low, bandwidth usage is low, and latency is low.

So, if/when the scenario you mention happens, the Series S version will simply have to download the "detailed" assets and render the game locally in "low res" mode.
 

Panajev2001a

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It depends.

For example, Microsoft had a Doom version running hybridly between local and cloud streaming asstes, with very little latency. It's called "project Kahawai" and was studied BEFORE xCloud.


What it basically means is that a game is stored locally with low quality assets, but the high quality assets and visuals are processed in cloud. This way loading times are low, bandwidth usage is low, and latency is low.

So, if/when the scenario you mention happens, the Series S version will simply have to download the "detailed" assets and render the game locally in "low res" mode.

Of course it depends and when your client can be the old classics dumb terminal, still very far away from that (not even MS is planning to give the power of an XSX per user with 4K streams on Xcloud, let some latency concerns). In your scenario the game logic and rendering still fits the client needs.

MS research has tons of interesting patents and publications... I am personally still super fascinated by the Project Talisman work 😳.
 
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NickFire

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Show me the proof the XSS is holding back the XSX. My 'agenda' is to push back against the lame narrative that the XSS is somehow interfering with developers ability to make games for the XSX. The only thing ignorant is people complaining about something that does not affect them. Again is this developer using ANY of the features of the console he is talking about? We've already put to bed that his complaints were about how the XSX is being held back.
The request for proof gives reason to suspect you are either not arguing in good faith or completely blind to reality. Even if you think all devs who raised concerns are off base, you should still know that the proof you ask for is 99.99999% most certainly contractually prohibited. Unless you can prove that MS allows 3rd and 1st party games to release only on Series X and not on Series S.