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Clickbait Cringe Xbox Live: Scamming You For 15 Years And Counting

Excess

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Dec 8, 2020
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Hackers/cheaters have taken over and ruined MP gaming on PC. I'm not a fan of paid monthly services either but the fact that cheating is mostly or entirely eliminated depending on the game makes the paid systems a necessary evil if only for their far better security.
This argument is largely a false cause because the inability to cheat isn't a result of XBL or PS+, it's due to a closed hardware ecosystem. XBL didn't save COD: WaW or GTA V from hackers who modded their Xbox 360's.

Also every MP experience is different, and not only is cheating not exclusive to PC, the ability to do so is also becoming ever-more diminished, demonstrated by the fact that more and more games are now becoming cross-platform MP. Is it easier to cheat on PC? Sure, but just because a seven year-old game like GTA V can't get their lobbies under control, it does not mean COD Cold War is unplayable by extension.
 
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Hackers/cheaters have taken over and ruined MP gaming on PC.
Nah, they're very rare unless you're one of those dunning-krueger fools that use mere existance of cheaters as a convenient excuse for their own lack of skill.
the paid systems a necessary evil if only for their far better security.
Imagine being so far into your console Stockholm syndrome as to think that people who pay hundreds of dollars for a custom cheat are actually in any way hindered by a 10 bucks online fee.
You know what's actually a nuisance for them?
2-factor authentication.
Community tools. (votekicking, demo recording, overwatch)
You know, shit that is free, and is up to developers to implement if they see cheating as a serious issue.
 
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Loope

Member
Dec 7, 2020
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It took Sony more than 7 years of watching MS getting away with this before giving in to the temptation.

They would have never even considered anything like it if the precedent hadn't been set and the practice normalized by Good Guys Microsoft.

I also see that nobody in the thread is calling out Nintendo. They charge for online multiplayer too now, remember? Why is nobody blaming Nintendo?
No way. That's on people and the companies, each responsible for what they've decided. I had a X360 and never payed gold, fuck them. People payed Sony because they wanted to, no one forced them to do it. It would be the same as every cellphone company raising prices to have the same margins as Apple and blaming Apple for it.
 

phil_t98

Member
Oct 10, 2014
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One thing I wanna ask, now everybody says PC online gaming is free which yeah it is but I see a lot of games where you can pay to access servers? Is that to just set up your own games or is it for more stable connections? No idea tbh
 
Aug 28, 2019
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I'd always rather not pay.

But whatever; if I don't think your product is worth it... I won't pay. Does it bring me value greater than or equal to the price? Then yes, I'll pay.

I'm not always subscribed to XBL, but if I find a good deal I buy into it.
 
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Quasicat

Member
Aug 8, 2019
769
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Before the GamePass Ultimate deal, I never really was that consistent with my Live subscription. I would wait until an original or 360 title would appear on Games with Gold that I wanted, then I would subscribe for the month. Once I got my “free” game that stays on my account, I would lapse my subscription. Once my GamePass subscription ends, this is probably what I will continue to do. I get it that the video guy doesn’t like paying it, but to each his own.
 

Trogdor1123

Member
Mar 2, 2012
9,424
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I'm uncertain how I personally feel about this. While I don't like paying for psn, I get a lot of value out of it. I play lots of the "free" games and usually buy my own for about 40 cdn, which is pretty cheap. Give all the games I play, I certainly don't lose any money that is for sure.

If the games were ever to stop though, I'd have an issue with it.
 

FranXico

Member
Dec 7, 2010
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No way. That's on people and the companies, each responsible for what they've decided. I had a X360 and never payed gold, fuck them. People payed Sony because they wanted to, no one forced them to do it. It would be the same as every cellphone company raising prices to have the same margins as Apple and blaming Apple for it.
If idiots hadn't defended and supported this practice from the beginning, it would not have become this widespread.

In fact, MS would have eventually stopped charging for online multiplayer.

This simple fact places most of the responsibility on people supporting the company that originally introduced it.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Dec 3, 2013
48,715
102,292
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Yeah. Indeed, we called it.
It just baffles me that people will be intellectually dishonest with human nature because they feel they need to defend corporations that sell them shit.

And that human nature is, give an inch and they want to take a mile.

We as humans all suffer from this depending on where our desires of greed targets, so one should stop pretending slippery slopes are a fallacy.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Dec 3, 2013
48,715
102,292
1,405
Remember when Sony was never going to charge because they were way too pro consumer and plus their users would never stand for it 😆😆😆

I get Gold with GPU. Well worth the price.
Sweet. Remember when they were making Live free according to all those MS “insiders,” only to double the price then back off due to backlash. Good times when consumers speak up.
 

Loope

Member
Dec 7, 2020
598
746
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If idiots hadn't defended and supported this practice from the beginning, it would not have become this widespread.

In fact, MS would have eventually stopped charging for online multiplayer.

This simple fact places most of the responsibility on people supporting the company that originally introduced it.
Nah fuck it. Nobody forced Sony or their fans to do it either. Stop putting the blame on a single entity. Why didn't the sony fans boycott it? Uh? Was it peer pressure from the MS fans? What's the excuse here?

MS did it, their fans liked it, nobody forced everybody else to do the same.

Sounds like the dudes that get shitfaced when they go out and then put the blame on the other guys because they were the ones that started drinking.
 

chonga

Member
Aug 17, 2020
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Somebody tell Gabe Newell that Steam users should be paying for the priviledge of playing online and all those nice messaging and sharing little hooks. After all, these things cost money, and operating income does not exist! Valve could go bankrupt any day now!

At least that's what some very insightful posters here are making me realize...
It does cost money to run. And it isn't free no matter what you think. It needs paying for. If that means you paying a sub or paying through game sales - you're paying.

People saying in a "just" world it would be free is just entitled bullshit.
 

FranXico

Member
Dec 7, 2010
13,840
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It does cost money to run. And it isn't free no matter what you think. It needs paying for. If that means you paying a sub or paying through game sales - you're paying.

People saying in a "just" world it would be free is just entitled bullshit.
It is already being payed through game sales, you say?
I didn't say these things cost them nothing, I'm saying that the argument that we should pay for them separately is bullshit, because companies earn enough money in multitudes of ways to afford these things.

Thank you for agreeing. We already pay for this when we buy the games, especially digitally distributed ones.
 
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carlosrox

Member
May 19, 2020
2,685
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Meh. Don't see the big deal to be honest. It's not that expensive.

Faux outrage as usual. Too much of this crying bullshit in gaming.
 
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ANIMAL1975

Member
Aug 27, 2018
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Killzone might not exactly be the best example to put Sony together in a boxing ring with Microsoft; in fact it's so unpopular that there are no remasters and it never arrived on PC since there's no interest in this to begin with. It's like Sony even wants to forget about its failures.
I'm not putting it in a boxing ring with anything, nor Sony with Ms. You don’t make sense. And you clearly have no idea about the importance and dimension of K2 and 3 multiplayer in Playstation ecossistem. I played K2 multiplayer until k3 came out, and when i say played it, i mean every day as my only game and full time member of a competitive clan... have you ever been this involved in Killzone through the years? Where does your knowledge of its user base and loyal fanbase comes from? Your own experience with the game or ear say?
 

Bumblebeetuna

Member
Jun 23, 2008
6,794
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Sweet. Remember when they were making Live free according to all those MS “insiders,” only to double the price then back off due to backlash. Good times when consumers speak up.
I do remember that. I said all along that the absolute best they'd do is roll Gold into basic GamePass. Anyone expecting them to pass on so much easy money is crazy.
 

Memorabilia

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Oct 25, 2013
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This argument is largely a false cause because the inability to cheat isn't a result of XBL or PS+, it's due to a closed hardware ecosystem. XBL didn't save COD: WaW or GTA V from hackers who modded their Xbox 360's.

Also every MP experience is different, and not only is cheating not exclusive to PC, the ability to do so is also becoming ever-more diminished, demonstrated by the fact that more and more games are now becoming cross-platform MP. Is it easier to cheat on PC? Sure, but just because a seven year-old game like GTA V can't get their lobbies under control, it does not mean COD Cold War is unplayable by extension.

This argument stands. And although I may not have been clear in my original post, my point should've been obvious that a closed ecosystem is largely responsible for increased security. Ultimately the "why" of it is less relevant than the FACT that MP gaming on PC has been ruined in large part by cheaters. I say this as someone who plays on all platforms including PC and regularly updates my PC. The bottom line is the experience is just not as easily enjoyable on PC bc of a widely rampant hacking/cheating problem. So, contrary to your assertion, it is most definitely not a "false cause" as you put it. I couldn't give two shits WHY there is less cheating bullshit on console. All I and many others care about is that we don't have to deal with nearly as many assholes cheating. Period.
 

Memorabilia

Member
Oct 25, 2013
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Nah, they're very rare unless you're one of those dunning-krueger fools that use mere existance of cheaters as a convenient excuse for their own lack of skill.

Imagine being so far into your console Stockholm syndrome as to think that people who pay hundreds of dollars for a custom cheat are actually in any way hindered by a 10 bucks online fee.
You know what's actually a nuisance for them?
2-factor authentication.
Community tools. (votekicking, demo recording, overwatch)
You know, shit that is free, and is up to developers to implement if they see cheating as a serious issue.

Imagine being so far up your own ass you can't admit reality. Take a long walk off a short plank. 🤦‍♂️😅
 
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Memorabilia

Member
Oct 25, 2013
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The market has spoken. People are paying for it, so why should it be free? The corps would just be throwing money away.

Ultimately, this is true. Many people obviously don't like paying for online access and I count myself among that crowd but there are legit reasons why the paid ecosystems attract and keep so many people. For many, it's as simple as not having the time, know-how, or money to build a PC. Amortized costs aside, building a computer takes time and is expensive. Consoles offer the easiest/cheapest route into online MP gaming for the masses. Aside from this, even for those of us who love to build and tinker with PCs, sometimes it's nice to not have to deal with the complications of PC gaming, including all the rampant cheating online. Beyond this, there are the monthly extra games which sweeten the deal and I think a lot of people view it such that they are paying for those monthly games moreso than they are paying for online MP gaming (or, that the games are a nice bonus).

I agree to a point with the people complaining about it, but the bottom line is there are several valid reasons why so many people are willing to pay $5-$10/month for XBL Gold or PS+. Most of the time it's pretty easy to snag 12 month subs to both services for $30-45 which amounts to about $2.50-$3.75/month.

People continue having this argument as if it hasn't been settled by the market already. This isn't rocket science.
 
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Imagine being so far up your own ass you can't admit reality.
 

Excess

Member
Dec 8, 2020
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And although I may not have been clear in my original post, my point should've been obvious that a closed ecosystem is largely responsible for increased security.
Firstly, I said a "closed hardware ecosystem". Secondly, unless you expect me to be a mind-reader, don't suggest that something might not have been clear, while saying it should have been obvious.

MP gaming on PC has been ruined in large part by cheaters.
If this was true, PC gaming would most likely be on a decline. Yet, the data suggests otherwise.

Since 2012, PC gaming sales have been growing at a faster rate than console at +3.1%. And according to Steam statistics, 21.4% new games were purchased, and 50.7% more hours were played YoY in 2020. If console were such a viable alternative, you can't reasonably conclude that PC gaming has been "ruined" by something.

it is most definitely not a "false cause" as you put it. I couldn't give two shits WHY there is less cheating bullshit on console.
"I'm not a fan of paid monthly services either but the fact that cheating is mostly or entirely eliminated depending on the game makes the paid systems a necessary evil if only for their far better security."

Your words, not mine. XBL and PS+ are not responsible for less cheating. Asking "why" is what establishes causation, rather than correlation.
 

Memorabilia

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Oct 25, 2013
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Firstly, I said a "closed hardware ecosystem". Secondly, unless you expect me to be a mind-reader, don't suggest that something might not have been clear, while saying it should have been obvious.


If this was true, PC gaming would most likely be on a decline. Yet, the data suggests otherwise.

Since 2012, PC gaming sales have been growing at a faster rate than console at +3.1%. And according to Steam statistics, 21.4% new games were purchased, and 50.7% more hours were played YoY in 2020. If console were such a viable alternative, you can't reasonably conclude that PC gaming has been "ruined" by something.


"I'm not a fan of paid monthly services either but the fact that cheating is mostly or entirely eliminated depending on the game makes the paid systems a necessary evil if only for their far better security."

Your words, not mine. XBL and PS+ are not responsible for less cheating. Asking "why" is what establishes causation, rather than correlation.

Anyone with the ability to be honest and impartially analyze a given scenario rather than letting an ideological stance influence their opinions on issues knows that PC gaming is without doubt infested with cheaters to a far greater degree than consoles. This is quite simply objective fact. I'm not going to argue with people who cannot acknowledge reality. Have a good one in your alternate universe. 🤦‍♂️😅
 

ZywyPL

Member
Nov 27, 2018
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685
I can understand/justify paying for dedicated server like it is today, but MP on 360 was a fucking P2P, people were paying for their own consoles hosting the games, that was so wrong on so many levels.
 

sublimit

Member
Aug 28, 2009
21,202
10,360
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Having to pay for playing online IS scummy but that battle was lost 15 years ago due to Xbox fanboys kissing MS's ass as usual and saying that the PS3 online was bad due to it being free while the truth was 1)it wasn't as bad as Xboys made it out to be 2)the reason why it wasn't as good as XboxLive was due to Sony starting to build their online infrastructure much later than MS and due to not having their expertise in online technology at that time.

But noooo the Xboys were all like "hey man i have no problem having to pay to play online it's sooo worth it dude!!" "PS3 free online is trash man i'm happy to pay to play".

It's really no wonder that with fans like that MS up until now also charged them in order to be able to play Free to Play games.
 
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Diddy X

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Jan 7, 2018
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Lol, in capitalism it's not about if it's fair or unfair for something to cost money, if there is a market and people are willing to pay then they will charge you (xbox live) now if they just don't see it viable to charge money then they will make it free and get their revenues through other ways (steam). Different business strategies.

Actually nothing is free, an online service costs money to mantain, Steam fuckin wish they could charge to play online, they just can't because everybody would migrate.
 

martino

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Apr 25, 2013
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Firstly, I said a "closed hardware ecosystem". Secondly, unless you expect me to be a mind-reader, don't suggest that something might not have been clear, while saying it should have been obvious.


If this was true, PC gaming would most likely be on a decline. Yet, the data suggests otherwise.

Since 2012, PC gaming sales have been growing at a faster rate than console at +3.1%. And according to Steam statistics, 21.4% new games were purchased, and 50.7% more hours were played YoY in 2020. If console were such a viable alternative, you can't reasonably conclude that PC gaming has been "ruined" by something.


"I'm not a fan of paid monthly services either but the fact that cheating is mostly or entirely eliminated depending on the game makes the paid systems a necessary evil if only for their far better security."

Your words, not mine. XBL and PS+ are not responsible for less cheating. Asking "why" is what establishes causation, rather than correlation.
datas are bitch for from the assclaims. Of course you will get ad hominem or other syllogism of the kind to an argument like this one.
Lol, in capitalism it's not about if it's fair or unfair for something to cost money, if there is a market and people are willing to pay then they will charge you (xbox live) now if they just don't see it viable to charge money then they will make it free and get their revenues through other ways (steam). Different business strategies.

Actually nothing is free, an online service costs money to mantain, Steam fuckin wish they could charge to play online, they just can't because everybody would migrate.
it's why the "it's fanboy fault of the other brand i pay online" is funny...those people should really look at mirror stand for their opinion and act accordly (stop paying for ps+ because it's what most people with that narrative do) or at least stop the victicmism that is their own weakness fault.
Others are dumb ? be better. don't play victim as an excuse to be as dumb...
 
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Krisprolls

Banned
May 20, 2010
2,477
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It's a strange reasoning. You don't pay for online, it's just the way consoles are sold. They wouldn't be sold at a loss if you didn't pay for online.

That's why you get a lot more for your money than when you buy a PC... Because you'll pay later.

If it's a scam, then Nvidia selling you 1500 dollars GPU with a huge profit margin is even more of a scam...
 

Griffon

Member
Oct 28, 2017
826
1,141
435
So many bitches sucking corpo dicks just for the privilege of hosting p2p sessions on their consoles.

And, no, XBL wasn't "better" on he 360, it sucked hairy ass and you just didn't know any better.
 

Papacheeks

Member
Jan 30, 2013
7,063
2,590
775
Watertown, NY
So you're out, then.

I work in IT and I can assure you PC/server related hacks are more common than specific devices like a media player, or gaming console. Issue now is those hackers that are primarily on PC are now part of the player pool in these large cross-play networks for larger IP's.

Warzone is the big one, it's harder to hack on consoles as if you are caught they can ban your console. How people have been getting smart is they run a VPN on their network and have it routed through their modem/router/switch. So anything getting a DHCP address from the router will be using a VPN. So it makes it hard for companies to stop these.

Go online majority of hacking for games is on PC. As in you can literally go to hacker sites buy hacks and implement them instantly. And if you are smart you have a VPN setup, so if they ban that account. you simply get a new one.
 
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I work in IT and I can assure you PC/server related hacks are more common than specific devices like a media player, or gaming console.
Nobody argues that it's not more common on PC. But pretending that it's some infestation of biblical proportions is asinine.
I do play a bunch of competitive FPS on PC at fairly high skill brackets. I also do my due diligence to report any hacker I come across through appropriate channels, which includes recording video evidence on my end. Which allows me to tell you exactly how often I come across confirmed cheaters.
The most recent one I came across was this month, on the 3rd in Apex. "Wow, that's very recent, hackers are rampant on PC!"
The one before that? Warzone, June 13th, 2020.
Yep, totally rampant.
Warzone is the big one, it's harder to hack on consoles as if you are caught they can ban your console.
MAC and HWID bans are a thing on PC too, IT guy.
Throw phone bans on top of it for games that do 2-factor auth for matchmaking.
Getting rid of hackers isn't the problem. Detecting them is. On PC they build tools for that. On consoles nobody bothers.
Cuz they're hacker-free, amirite?
And then there are cretins that claim that a $10 montly fee stop these people.
In a F2P game.
That doesn't require that $10 fee to play. :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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Papacheeks

Member
Jan 30, 2013
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Watertown, NY
Nobody argues that it's not more common on PC. But pretending that it's some infestation of biblical proportions is asinine.
I do play a bunch of competitive FPS on PC at fairly high skill brackets. I also do my due diligence to report any hacker I come across through appropriate channels, which includes recording video evidence on my end. Which allows me to tell you exactly how often I come across confirmed cheaters.
The most recent one I came across was this month, on the 3rd in Apex. "Wow, that's very recent, hackers are rampant on PC!"
The one before that? Warzone, June 13th, 2020.
Yep, totally rampant.

MAC and HWID bans are a thing on PC too, IT guy.
Throw phone bans on top of it for games that do 2-factor auth for matchmaking.
Getting rid of hackers isn't the problem. Detecting them is. On PC they build tools for that. On consoles nobody bothers.
Cuz they're hacker-free, amirite?
And then there are cretins that claim that a $10 montly fee stop these people.
In a F2P game.
That doesn't require that $10 fee to play. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

You have no clue what your talking about. There's more things that are in a more controlled environment on consoles. IP port's that are used are specific to those companies, some are portforwarding for more common supported features on small networks. But the IP connection from your console to the company goes through multiple points that go through internet hubs that are on specific servers/routers/switches that are maintained/monitored by the company directly. There is also data ecnryption as well going on, PC unless you have software, and physical firewall unit to scan/monitor your traffic you get hacked easily.

Things like ransomware are exe. that get on systems through email attachments. Hacking on console happens on a OS level that is done by the user, the only way people get their consoles hacked from outside is through third party actions like them accepting a friend request and accepting a PSN/XBL message that has something attached to it that executes and runs through commands that are set in a script in the attachment.

Consoles are much safer. You can get your account hacked but thats is happening on a server side where your account is stored aka a PC. PC is so much easier because everyone who is playing or using gaming PC is using a OS that is open to run programs and command prompt/scripts. Consoles do not give the user that ability. PS3 was very hackable, and that was because of the OS, it's back end supports apache servers, and could run other OS's like Linux.
 
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Hacking on console happens on a OS level that is done by the user
The cheating software is not hosted on the console unit itself, IT guy.

You appear to know very little about this topic for saying such inflammatory words:
You have no clue what your talking about.
But please do carry on firing off irrelevant internet traffic trivia.
Riveting stuff.
 
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jaysius

Member
Oct 3, 2019
2,119
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The trash thing about Xbox Gold is that we're paying MONEY to be served ADS on our HOME SCREENS. If you're offline on a Xbox you don't get the fucking ADS, when you go ONLINE they serve you their shitty ads in those 3 flex spaces, sometimes you can get ALL ADS there, sometimes it's other useless info.

Not enough people are pissed that we're paying MS for online and they're serving us ADS in our FACES when we turn on the machines and there's no real way to dismiss them, sure you can say "less like this" on TWO of the rectangles but not on the 3rd EVER.
 
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Papacheeks

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The cheating software is not hosted on the console unit itself, IT guy.

You appear to know very little about this topic for saying such inflammatory words:

But please do carry on firing off irrelevant internet traffic trivia.
Riveting stuff.

Correct the hacks are stored via the device which has to connect via usb which gives commands to the OS in how it reads the peripheral inputs.

If you did not get anything from my comment then you have no clue. Internet traffic and interception of said packets within that traffic is the basis for hacking through internet net ports to the user on said system who is connected to a network.

Yes there are lots of hacks, but my point was on PC people literally can run hacks easily through third party programs and files. Your video just proved that you have to literally use an external device to do the hacking. People that try to side load alternate OS's/Firmware, homebrew can easily have the console banned. WHich is why so many PS3's, and PS4's that get resold that had been hacked get banned by actual serial.
 

FranXico

Member
Dec 7, 2010
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it's why the "it's fanboy fault of the other brand i pay online" is funny...those people should really look at mirror stand for their opinion and act accordly (stop paying for ps+ because it's what most people with that narrative do) or at least stop the victicmism that is their own weakness fault.
Others are dumb ? be better. don't play victim as an excuse to be as dumb...
Before you think of using the hypocrisy card.

Let me fill you in on my personal stance, which is the same as that from other posters here:

1. I stopped paying for PS+ years ago.
2. I also disagree with games costing $70. I hardly ever buy one for $60 as it is now. My solution is to just let the price drop.
3. I don't use PSNow either, because rental doesn't do it for me. My personal preference, and let's leave it at that.

We are not victims, we are just not stupid.

That advice of yours about fanboys needing to look at mirrors? It's a nice advice. Maybe start practicing what you preach.