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[The artful mincer]

So a big pet peeve of mine with the souls game is how stingy they can be with upgrade materials. In Dark souls 1 by playing the game normally you will likely find enough materials to upgrade 2 normal weapon's (sword and shield) and maybe a dark knight weapon. If you want more you will have to go grind for an unreasonable amount of time. The other game's are similar although Elden ring and I think dark souls 2 give you the most through playing naturally.

Now I think there are upside's to this. It forces you to make hard choice's and stick it out so to speak. These are meant to be challenging games, forcing you to beat the game with a sub optimal weapons will feel all the more satisfying. In multiplayer ( which I don't play much ) finally getting a good build will feel more special and give you an advantage for at least a little bit longer.

On the other hand it can make mid game and especially late game exploration rather boring. All the new weapons you find are meaningless because you will have to spend a bunch of time leveling them up. I choose to be a mage for first time ever in Elden ring because at least I could find new spells that would be useful throughout the whole game.

My 2 solutions are either remove them entirely or drastically reduce time investment for materials. I think builds are still important so capping weapons to the players level stats will stop players from being able to use everything. Making materials more abundant and cheaper (Like Elden ring did and but going further) is the other option maybe making them far cheaper to obtain in NG+ as a nice middle ground.

 

[killatopak]

Souls and upgrade materials are pretty abundant in Elden Ring. Really the only thing that are limited are the +10/+25 (last upgrade) materials because the bell bearing basically made the materials infinite. Souls/runes are really easy to procure as well.

Up to date upgrade materials are limited because it also functions as a cap for PVP. Basically makes you fight with people who have the same or similar upgrade levels.

 

[Hunnybun]

I have never understood the point of allowing you to level up in an action game, full stop. I simply don't get it.

Why make a super hard game whose very essence is its challenge and uncompromising nature, and then allow you to make it easy if you just spend a day or so of total boredom grinding out upgrades?

At that point you might as well just have difficulty options. But this bizarre settlement seems to be everywhere in games and no one seems to question it. Just yesterday someone was saying how they manage to beat Horizon on ultra hard by levelling up certain weapons and skills etc - what's the point? "I'm going to beat this on hard because I'm super hardcore and I'll do it by making it easier!"

It's like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

[ReBurn]

Grinding for upgrades sucks in pretty much every game that includes it. I think Souls games get away with it better than most because you're expected to punish yourself one way or another to complete them.

 

[wOs]

Other than the usual ability to only get one or two of the final upgrade material, I've always been satisfied with how you get or unlock the ability to get upgrade materials.

 

[Drizzlehell]

You only grind in Souls games if you suck at combat. If you're a decent enough player then you'll never have to resort to it.

 

[Punished Miku]

You only grind in Souls games if you suck at combat. If you're a decent enough player then you'll never have to resort to it.

"You only _________ in souls if you suck at _________."
- Time Magazine, 2023

 

[Gaiff]

I have never understood the point of allowing you to level up in an action game, full stop. I simply don't get it.

Why make a super hard game whose very essence is its challenge and uncompromising nature, and then allow you to make it easy if you just spend a day or so of total boredom grinding out upgrades?

At that point you might as well just have difficulty options. But this bizarre settlement seems to be everywhere in games and no one seems to question it. Just yesterday someone was saying how they manage to beat Horizon on ultra hard by levelling up certain weapons and skills etc - what's the point? "I'm going to beat this on hard because I'm super hardcore and I'll do it by making it easier!"

It's like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Did you forget the RPG part of the Souls series?

 

[The artful mincer]

You only grind in Souls games if you suck at combat. If you're a decent enough player then you'll never have to resort to it.

Do you never level up your favourite weapon to the max level?

 

[Drizzlehell]

"You only _________ in souls if you suck at _________."
- Time Magazine, 2023

I see myself as more of a Reader's Digest kind of guy, but thank you for thinking so highly of me.

 

[01011001]

given that you literally don't need them... neither.

I never really worked too hard towards upgrading my weapons, unless I happen to stumble upon the materials, and I had zero issue getting through the game.

I think the problem here lies with the players not the game.
the game doesn't push you to max out each weapon, but the players often just can't help themselves and want to grind out their gear to max, even tho it's not designed for you to necessarily do that.

 

[Drizzlehell]

Do you never level up your favourite weapon to the max level?

I do, but I never really felt the need to grind. I usually just got the materials I needed by playing through the games normally.

Although to be fair, I never got in so deep into those games to do any of the crazy PvP builds or do multiple NG+ runs so maybe there's eventually a point where you have to grind for some very high level builds but I wouldn't consider that a standard part of the experience. That's more like an European Extreme mode for chads and I reckon most regular players don't even go that far.

 

[The artful mincer]

I do, but I never really felt the need to grind. I usually just got the materials I needed by playing through the games normally.

Although to be fair, I never got in so deep into those games to do any of the crazy PvP builds or do multiple NG+ runs so maybe there's eventually a point where you have to grind for some very high level builds but I wouldn't consider that a standard part of the experience. That's more like an European Extreme mode for chads and I reckon most regular players don't even go there.

Well that's what I mean you don't have to farm/grind for one or two weapons. But if you want to try a different weapon etc you have to farm to upgrade that or start a new game.

Well that or play with a far weaker weapon

 

[AJUMP23]

I would like a way to get multiple weapons to the highest levels but it isn't a real issue. I tend to horde my materials because I am always afraid I will not have enough or make a wrong choice.

 

[Drizzlehell]

Well that's what I mean you don't have to farm/grind for one or two weapons. But if you want to try a different weapon etc you have to farm to upgrade that or start a new game.

Well that or play with a far weaker weapon

Yeah, I can see that. Though I don't know what would be a better solution. I definitely wouldn't want this to go away completely because creating builds and upgrading my stuff was always a huge part of my enjoyment in those games.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Limiting the amount of resources needed for max upgrades and copies of a weapon encourages players to go to the next ng and/or increases community interactions by promoting trades.
It's fine as it is.

 

[T4keD0wN]

The less time spent in the menus/inventory the better. This is the exact reason why sekiro is their best game, its not about upgrading your weapon to +5 and spreading you stats to have 50CON and 69STR, its about how you play.

I want to play a game, if i wanted to crunch numbers and look at spreadsheets id use Excel.

 

[AV]

I have never understood the point of allowing you to level up in an action game, full stop. I simply don't get it.

Why make a super hard game whose very essence is its challenge and uncompromising nature, and then allow you to make it easy if you just spend a day or so of total boredom grinding out upgrades?

At that point you might as well just have difficulty options. But this bizarre settlement seems to be everywhere in games and no one seems to question it. Just yesterday someone was saying how they manage to beat Horizon on ultra hard by levelling up certain weapons and skills etc - what's the point? "I'm going to beat this on hard because I'm super hardcore and I'll do it by making it easier!"

It's like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Grinding in Souls never makes the game easy. Just slightly easier and it's a waste of time anyway. The grind time would be much better spent getting better at the game itself.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Its not that grindy, unless you plan on upgrading more than 2-3 weapons and then the question comes, why would u want to do that? I always pick 2 main weapons and just stick with those the entire game.

 

[j0hnnix]

Never felt an issue with grinding in souls games.. There's much worse games out there that have no respect for others times. From Software and their Soulsbourne series is not one of them.

 

[killatopak]

Well that's what I mean you don't have to farm/grind for one or two weapons. But if you want to try a different weapon etc you have to farm to upgrade that or start a new game.

Well that or play with a far weaker weapon

You don’t farm/grind the final upgrade materials by the way. None of them need a grind. All of them are literally either quest reward, boss drop or placed statically in the world. None of them require killing enemies multiple times. There are 8 for special weapons or 13 for normal weapons. You can max 21 weapons in a playthrough.

The difference between +9/+24 and +10/25 is minuscule really. For example for Bloodhound fang, the difference is 20 damage (325-345). For Greatsword it’s 9 damage (392-401). Of course there’s also a minor increase due to weapon scaling on stats but it’s very small. Even if say the weapon scaling goes from B to A, there are levels to it. Let’s say B is 101-200 and A is 201-300. Your B scaling +9 weapon could be on the upper end of B at 190 while the A scaling +10 weapon is at 205. This is why there instances where weapons that have two scaling stats scale higher on one. Like a weapon both has C scaling on Strength and Dexterity yet you get more attack rating when you increase Dex compared to Str. It‘s because it’s a higher scaling C for dex.

 

[Captain Toad]

No. Stop trying to make Souls games into the same boring crap as all other modern AAA games.

 

[FoxMcChief]

I think the only thing I’d change is halving the upgrade materials for most leveling up of weapons.

 

[Hunnybun]

Did you forget the RPG part of the Souls series?

Have you ever heard of circular reasoning?

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

This thread is lacking some Pure Bladestone horror stories.
It’s perfectly fine to not be able to amass a collection of fully upgraded weapons. After all, you only get one item from any given boss soul for each playthrough. Choices have to be made.
The grind is never a good thing, though. People complain about the gacha stuff in games like Xenoblade 2, but there is technically no difference with stuff like the Pure Stones in Demon’s Souls. But it seems the Japanese really love that RNG god deciding how the game’s gonna turn out for you.

 

[Hunnybun]

Grinding in Souls never makes the game easy. Just slightly easier and it's a waste of time anyway. The grind time would be much better spent getting better at the game itself.

Not my experience. I spent a few hours grinding souls in Demon's Souls in the Isle of Storms and that stage itself went from brutally difficult to perfectly manageable. Maybe not easy in an absolute sense, but the difference was vast.

 

[01011001]

Well that's what I mean you don't have to farm/grind for one or two weapons. But if you want to try a different weapon etc you have to farm to upgrade that or start a new game.

Well that or play with a far weaker weapon

but that's what makes RPGs what they are.
you're not supposed to be able to just easily change your character in a drastic way,
part of the game is to plan your progression, to choose wisely, to plan what kind of character you want to build.

it's only once you go out of that core design of the game, and you want to play every weapon, and have multiple characters n stuff that it becomes grindy.

but complaining about that is like the people that complained how there are too many shrines and too many Korok seeds in Breath of the Wild...
you're not supposed to do them all, the game is designed in a way that you can stumble upon them naturally, and in a way that you don't need to find/do them all in order to improve your character and/or get food stuff.

the PvP in Souls games is where this grinding comes into play, but PvP in Souls games was also originally only always a side thing, which a small amount of players turned into their main draw to the game, even tho it's not meant to be that.

 

[AV]

Not my experience. I spent a few hours grinding souls in Demon's Souls in the Isle of Storms and that stage itself went from brutally difficult to perfectly manageable. Maybe not easy in an absolute sense, but the difference was vast.

You sure it didn't just get easier because you were playing that zone over and over and getting comfortable with the game? Surely you weren't taking the same amount of hits each time. I guess you could sit in 4-1 all day but pretty quickly that power gap is going to close in on you and it won't be worth grinding any further, and you'll still have to beat Flame Lurker by knowing how it moves rather than outscaling it. Overlevelling can feel beneficial at first but it's still always a better time investment to just play the game and let the power come naturally while actually making progress.

 

[Mr Hyde]

I think grinding is a big part of the charm with these games. However, Demon's Souls and Dark Souls were incredibly stingy with upgrade materials, with lizards and drop rates being majorly fucked, whereas Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring were far more lenient, where you can upgrade at least 25-30 weapons before NG+. Dark Souls 2 got it exactly right. The drop rates are low, but not that low that you are pulling your hair. And the materials found in the world on your journey are plentiful to upgrade 3-4 weapons and armor + some experimentation. Stone trader Chloanne also sells unlimited titanite but not twinkling or petrified, which you have to farm. It's a good trade off and makes it more fun. The only real time consuming farming part, is getting 50 loyce souls for the Loyce set, Ivory King set and Eleum Loyce sword. But it's totally worth it due to some serious fashion.

 

[Tg89]

Souls games usually throw most upgrade materials are you. Maybe if you want to max out weapons you're a bit limited but it's pretty easy to get a handful of weapons to a reasonably high level. Also NG+ is a pretty big aspect of the series.

 

[The artful mincer]

You don’t farm/grind the final upgrade materials by the way. None of them need a grind. All of them are literally either quest reward, boss drop or placed statically in the world. None of them require killing enemies multiple times. There are 8 for special weapons or 13 for normal weapons. You can max 21 weapons in a playthrough.

The difference between +9/+24 and +10/25 is minuscule really. For example for Bloodhound fang, the difference is 20 damage (325-345). For Greatsword it’s 9 damage (392-401). Of course there’s also a minor increase due to weapon scaling on stats but it’s very small. Even if say the weapon scaling goes from B to A, there are levels to it. Let’s say B is 101-200 and A is 201-300. Your B scaling +9 weapon could be on the upper end of B at 190 while the A scaling +10 weapon is at 205. This is why there instances where weapons that have two scaling stats scale higher on one. Like a weapon both has C scaling on Strength and Dexterity yet you get more attack rating when you increase Dex compared to Str. It‘s because it’s a higher scaling C for dex.

I didn't know elden ring had this much materials that is certainly better

 

[The artful mincer]

Its not that grindy, unless you plan on upgrading more than 2-3 weapons and then the question comes, why would u want to do that? I always pick 2 main weapons and just stick with those the entire game.

Because it can be boring using the same weapon over and over. It's like the weapons have deep complex movesets either

 

[The Cockatrice]

Because it can be boring using the same weapon over and over. It's like the weapons have deep complex movesets either

Damn, people get bored of souls games if they dont use 10 weapons at the same time? Insanity. Thought peopled played it for awesome atmosphere, level design, bosses, difficulty, etc. I can play with a longsword the entire game, having a different sword with a different attack animation doesnt make the game better.

 

[Kataploom]

Try Mortal Shell, it's a straightforward souls-like without upgrading or crafting, just straight to the combat and exploration, there are the "shells" that are bodies with different stats but that's it. I personally liked it a lot, but seems like it had mixed receptions tho...

 

[Hunnybun]

You sure it didn't just get easier because you were playing that zone over and over and getting comfortable with the game? Surely you weren't taking the same amount of hits each time. I guess you could sit in 4-1 all day but pretty quickly that power gap is going to close in on you and it won't be worth grinding any further, and you'll still have to beat Flame Lurker by knowing how it moves rather than outscaling it. Overlevelling can feel beneficial at first but it's still always a better time investment to just play the game and let the power come naturally while actually making progress.

No I think I was severely underlevelled at the start and somewhat overlevelled by the end.

At the start I could barely even block one attack of those skeleton things. After 4 or 5 hours of levelling up I could dispatch them all pretty easily if I was just methodical. Then I basically went on to finish the game without too many further problems.

The effect of the grinding was basically to switch from 'very hard' to 'normal'.

I don't really understand the benefit of letting players do that when you could just give them an easy option. The idea that one is somehow more in line with some purity standard seems ludicrous to me.

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

I can't say I've ever grinded in these games and I've played them all, multiple times each mostly. I never max out my weapons and shit though, they tend to be good enough just playing normally to me.

 

[Yoboman]

They already did

 

[AV]

No I think I was severely underlevelled at the start and somewhat overlevelled by the end.

At the start I could barely even block one attack of those skeleton things. After 4 or 5 hours of levelling up I could dispatch them all pretty easily if I was just methodical. Then I basically went on to finish the game without too many further problems.

The effect of the grinding was basically to switch from 'very hard' to 'normal'.

I don't really understand the benefit of letting players doing that when you could just give them an easy option. The idea that one is somehow more in line with some purity standard seems ludicrous to me.

I see your point. But I also still think if you tacked 4-5 hours of practicing the timing of attacks, rolls etc onto rest of the game, you're also going to make the rest of the experience easier. That's like 1/5th of entire game extra so the grinding idea just seems wild to me when you'll just hit the point at which that stuff barely matters any more far earlier than you normally would anyway. DeS itself is far more about figuring out which levels are easier than others and playing them in the "right" order for your build, in that admittedly obnoxiously obtuse Souls way. But I do see what you're saying.

 

[The artful mincer]

Damn, people get bored of souls games if they dont use 10 weapons at the same time? Insanity. Thought peopled played it for awesome atmosphere, level design, bosses, difficulty, etc. I can play with a longsword the entire game, having a different sword with a different attack animation doesnt make the game better.

It can still be all those things and give the player more weapon choice.

Exploration and discovery are big part of these games as well. What's the point of exploring if your not experimenting with any new weapons?

 

[Antwix]

The future games are fine past Demons Souls which is one of the reasons why it's the worst game in the fromsoft library.

 

[Hunnybun]

I see your point. But I also still think if you tacked 4-5 hours of practicing the timing of attacks, rolls etc onto rest of the game, you're also going to make the rest of the experience easier. That's like 1/5th of entire game extra so the grinding idea just seems wild to me when you'll just hit the point at which that stuff barely matters any more far earlier than you normally would anyway. DeS itself is far more about figuring out which levels are easier than others and playing them in the "right" order for your build, in that admittedly obnoxiously obtuse Souls way. But I do see what you're saying.

I guess the reason people would do that is that the goal isn't obviously to finish the game in the most efficient manner. A lot of people, including me, really don't enjoy spending time getting angry and frustrated and would happily spend more time overall having a pleasanter and less stressful experience.

 

[Gaiff]

Have you ever heard of circular reasoning?

So you never understood the point of leveling up in an RPG? Really? Because you labeled Souls games as action games but omitted the crucial part that they're action RPGs. Furthermore, you can still level up even in more traditional action games such as NG or Bayonetta by increasing your health, weapon damage, defenses, etc. So I'm not sure what point you're making here.

 

[Fbh]

I never found it to be a major issue but yes, EVERY game would be better with no grinding.
Grinding and farming are shit mechanics regardless of which game they are in

 

[01011001]

The future games are fine past Demons Souls which is one of the reasons why it's the worst game in the fromsoft library.

???
you don't need to farm or grind for anything in Demon's Souls.
in fact due to how easy the game is comparatively, you'll arguably need to worry about that stuff less than in other Souls games.

 

[Hunnybun]

So you never understood the point of leveling up in an RPG? Really? Because you labeled Souls games as action games but omitted the crucial part that they're action RPGs. Furthermore, you can still level up even in more traditional action games such as NG or Bayonetta by increasing your health, weapon damage, defenses, etc. So I'm not sure what point you're making here.

It's circular because what makes them action RPGs is the levelling, so you can't really defend the presence of levelling in the game by saying 'it's an RPG' because that's equivalent to saying 'it has levelling because it has levelling'.

I think a lot of games would be better off without the ability to grind and level up via side missions etc. Whether or not that would move them to another category of game is basically irrelevant.

 

[Gaiff]

It's circular because what makes them action RPGs is the levelling, so you can't really defend the presence of levelling in the game by saying 'it's an RPG' because that's equivalent to saying 'it has levelling because it has levelling'.

That's not what circular reasoning is? You quite literally cannot have an RPG without a leveling system of sorts and there you are asking "what's the point of leveling up in an action game?" This criticism would be valid in say a game like Ninja Gaiden because it's actually an action game. Not understanding why there is leveling in an RPG is just ignoring what an RPG is.

I think a lot of games would be better off without the ability to grind and level up via side missions etc. Whether or not that would move them to another category of game is basically irrelevant.

It's relevant because there are expectations associated with different genres. They key aspect of RPGs is that you develop a character which more often than not, involves them progressing at what they're good at. Dark Souls is an RPG so if they want to keep that sense of progress, that level 100 mage has to be stronger than that level 10 mage. Sure, you could strip out all the RPG mechanics but the game would lose a lot of its appeal and be strictly skill-based and have lateral progression which while it wouldn't bother me, would bother a lot of people.

 

[Draugoth]

There isnt Grindin Souls games unless you want to replace missing souls/runes

 

[Antwix]

???
you don't need to farm or grind for anything in Demon's Souls.
in fact due to how easy the game is comparatively, you'll arguably need to worry about that stuff less than in other Souls games.

???
You don't NEED to do anything in any of these games.
It's been a long time since I've played it but I recall just how imbalanced the resource economy is for some of the stones.

 

[The Cockatrice]

It can still be all those things and give the player more weapon choice.

Exploration and discovery are big part of these games as well. What's the point of exploring if your not experimenting with any new weapons?

I experiment but I dont upgrade all of them lmao.

 

[Hunnybun]

That's not what circular reasoning is? You quite literally cannot have an RPG without a leveling system of sorts and there you are asking "what's the point of leveling up in an action game?" This criticism would be valid in say a game like Ninja Gaiden because it's actually an action game. Not understanding why there is leveling in an RPG is just ignoring what an RPG is.

It's relevant because there are expectations associated with different genres. They key aspect of RPGs is that you develop a character which more often than not, involves them progressing at what they're good at. Dark Souls is an RPG so if they want to keep that sense of progress, that level 100 mage has to be stronger than that level 10 mage. Sure, you could strip out all the RPG mechanics but the game would lose a lot of its appeal and be strictly skill-based and have lateral progression which while it wouldn't bother me, would bother a lot of people.

You're looking at it through the wrong end of the telescope. What largely meaningless category a game ends up in isn't what makes it good or bad. What should matter to game design is how good and rewarding it is, not how faithfully it adheres to some arbitrary template. So if not having a certain system meant a Souls game was a) better and b) in violation of RPG norms, then the fact of it being an RPG in the first place was never important to its quality.