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Why Xbox Studios releasing crossgen Games for the first year of the console will not have any impact on game design

GHG

Gold Member
It's not binary logic. I am pointing out that if a game is designed to accommodate slow disc-read speed, slow HDD speed, bottlenecked processor, limited system RAM, etc then the game designers will be forced to omit things that might take advantage of fast HDD speed, larger processor, larger and faster system RAM, etc.

This happens on PC every single generation. PC gets the faster framerate and LoD, but the funamental design remains the same. You're still stuck with 6-person "huge battles", bottlenecked map design, and combat systems designed with a twin-stick controller in mind.

We can rewind to the beginning of this gen and observe the difference between cross-gen titles and their true "next gen" successors. Titanfall -> Titanfall 2 and Metal Gear Solid 5 -> Death Stranding both show an unmistakable transition in game design that could not likely have been replicated on the 360 or PS3.


When I think "game design" (admittedly, a subjective phrase) I think of how many enemies can be on the screen, or how large the hub world is, or how many different weapon animations there are, or how loading screens affect the map layout, and so forth.

Outside of fan modding, the PC's extra hardware almost never impacts "game design". The game world is prettier, the framerate is faster, maybe if you're lucky the draw distance is better, but the combat designed for a Dualshock still play the same on PC, the enemy AI is just as dumb, the size of the battles remains the same, and so forth.

The problem is a lot of people don't remember (or weren't here when) games were designed first for the PC and then console ports were an afterthought. The PC games that did make it to console did so with levels cut, and areas shrunk all while still running on low settings with pitiful framerates. Anyone looking for a good example of this needs to look no further than the original Deus Ex and its PS2 port.
 

hyperbertha

Member
Op is essentially pointing out what GAF knew pretty clearly for months - that only first party games won't have Series X exclusives for the first two years..... I don't see the point of this thread at all. And yes it does matter. Cripplingly so, if Sony's first parties knock it out of the park. Really stupid decision by whoever is responsible.
 

kuncol02

Banned
That was a team of two dozen people working over 6 months. Call me crazy, but I'm thinking Sony has had more people working on PS5 games for far longer.
That demo was also like 5 minutes of slowly walking through cave filled with hundreds copies of one statue. If that work time scale linearly, then 240 people team in 5 years would be able to make 8.5h game (filled mostly be identical objects).
If you want movie quality assets, then you also need movie sized teams. There are hundreds of artists working on every movie and it takes months to finish event through their work is easier, they don't need to make sure, that they work looks good from every side.
 

93xfan

Banned
People forget about Forza Horizon 2 and how different they were between 360 and Xbox one. Both had exclusive content and played to the system’s strength.

The 360 version didn’t have any weather changes and kept the races relegated to the roads, as the off-road parts in that version were lacking a lot of detail and geometry.
 

MrMiyagi

Banned
Maybe not all games will be on Xone too, but do you honestly think Medium and Scorn will need a RTX2080 and SSD to run on pc? Xbox exclusives will be mostly like pc titles that will have to run on mid-range pc's as well, whereas ps5 exclusives can take full advantage of the hardware that's in the box. We'll see, but I'm guessing MS's July presser will get the same reaction as their last one, while Sony will be showing true next gen stuff.
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
The problem is a lot of people don't remember (or weren't here when) games were designed first for the PC and then console ports were an afterthought. The PC games that did make it to console did so with levels cut, and areas shrunk all while still running on low settings with pitiful framerates. Anyone looking for a good example of this needs to look no further than the original Deus Ex and its PS2 port.
Yes, that was the era of PC gaming I grew up in. Sad to see development shift that way but it isn't a surprise.
 
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Tulipanzo

Member
You're making these outlandish assumptions when neither company has showed their hand. Can you at least wait till then?
Every single console launch in history has had launch exclusives, that's not an assumption.
The UE tech demo getting beat by launch titles is also a pretty safe bet, given that's exactly what happened with UE3 and UE4.

Really the assumption is the weird cynicism, supported by nothing, that technological advancement will just crawl to a halt to conveniently allow MS to continue pushing a 7 year box for subs.
 
Every single console launch in history has had launch exclusives, that's not an assumption.
The UE tech demo getting beat by launch titles is also a pretty safe bet, given that's exactly what happened with UE3 and UE4.

Really the assumption is the weird cynicism, supported by nothing, that technological advancement will just crawl to a halt to conveniently allow MS to continue pushing a 7 year box for subs.
Neither company has shown there hand at this point and time. Discrediting one over the other seems shortsighted. Yes, you draw conclusions based one the beginning of this gen, but we've seen Sony continue to prove themselves and Microsoft are showing us that next generation won't repeat the current one. Let's let them officially lift the lid of their plans and make a better sound judgement is all I'm saying.
 

Tulipanzo

Member
Neither company has shown there hand at this point and time. Discrediting one over the other seems shortsighted. Yes, you draw conclusions based one the beginning of this gen, but we've seen Sony continue to prove themselves and Microsoft are showing us that next generation won't repeat the current one. Let's let them officially lift the lid of their plans and make a better sound judgement is all I'm saying.
OP is speculating XBox's approach will work just fine, so I shouldn't speculate it won't because...?
If you don't like speculation, and don't want to be dissuaded from your opinions, then get off a speculation thread!

Plus I'm drawing conclusions based on what has normally happened in every previous generation, not just this one.
Not having launch exclusives, no matter how you slice it, is very unprecedented.
Coming out of a generation where most people would say good exclusive support benefited consoles (as close as 2017 with the Switch), declaring you won't make any is a questionable strategy.
 
OP is speculating XBox's approach will work just fine, so I shouldn't speculate it won't because...?
If you don't like speculation, and don't want to be dissuaded from your opinions, then get off a speculation thread!

Plus I'm drawing conclusions based on what has normally happened in every previous generation, not just this one.
Not having launch exclusives, no matter how you slice it, is very unprecedented.
Coming out of a generation where most people would say good exclusive support benefited consoles (as close as 2017 with the Switch), declaring you won't make any is a questionable strategy.
Dude are you this negative about things regarding Sony and any of their systems? It's like you're being paid to only speak negative of Microsoft.
 

Grinchy

Banned
Just imagine the 360 coming out and for its entire first year or longer, it had only enhanced original Xbox games from Microsoft themselves. They'd be trying to convince you this $400 360 was worth it for Halo 2 at 720p with extra flood enemies rendered, maybe Splinter Cell with double the light sources you can shoot out, ect.

And the only time you got to see what it was capable of compared to the previous generation was if a 3rd party company decided to make a next-gen game for it. You'd be left waiting for Oblivion to come out to see what the new generation actually looked like. It would be the weirdest introduction to the market ever.
 

Tulipanzo

Member
Dude are you this negative about things regarding Sony and any of their systems? It's like you're being paid to only speak negative of Microsoft.
If Sony told me they were not making exclusives for a couple years, yes I'd also be negative about their approach.

It's a very unhealthy mindset to assume everyone you disagree with is paid
 
If Sony told me they were not making exclusives for a couple years, yes I'd also be negative about their approach.

It's a very unhealthy mindset to assume everyone you disagree with is paid
Not everyone, just you. You should practice what you preach because assumptions are plastered all over your post. But I get it.
 

Tulipanzo

Member
Not everyone, just you. You should practice what you preach because assumptions are plastered all over your post. But I get it.
Oh, I'm honored that you think I alone and nobody else gets paid. You hold me in high regard lol

You're free to disagree, but I laid down the facts as I see them
1) Every single console launch in history used exclusives
2) Previous UE tech demos were surpassed by their respective console launches
3) Exclusives have played a key role in console sales as recently as 2017

Meanwhile, you accuse me of speculating in a speculation thread. Which like, no shit
 
There has only been one launch title in history that actually managed to show the console's full potential. That title is Ryse. To this day it looks glorious. Take other launch titles like Killzone Shadowfall and you see what is the reality of your average launch exclusive.
I'm not sure what you mean, Killzone:SF is still a pretty good looking game, as is Ryse (Killzone:SF is the better game of the two, it has moments where it shine, while Ryse is boring every single minutes you spend playing it)--the point is, both could have a release trailer presented today as a PS4/xbo game and nobody would say they look "dated".

Killzone Shadowfall:
original.jpg


Rise Son of Rome
2384721-ryse_1.jpg
 
Not everyone, just you. You should practice what you preach because assumptions are plastered all over your post. But I get it.
Man, your answer is so strange, you are writing words, but there is no apparent message, it seems to be passive aggressive tho... The message you respond to is not preachy, however writing in parables is kind of preachy.

Seriously, you guys should ask more of Phil than empty promises... I just hope he delivers something meaningful in therms of content to the xbox platform at some point in the near future, otherwise he will be remembered as the guy who finished off what Mattrick started--the end of xbox.
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Still something people cannot comprehend. Crysis makes this concern trolling looks pathetic.

I’am still waiting to see a better A.I than F.e.a.r... and an entire generation passed since.
This gen was lamest with Ai and physics, so like this kind of bullshit is up to devs. Only problem with ML trained Ai is that it could be too good, which then make playing unfun, some fucking camper somewhere one shot you, etc. I can only imagine rage : D
 
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Man, your answer is so strange, you are writing words, but there is no apparent message, it seems to be passive aggressive tho... The message you respond to is not preachy, however writing in parables is kind of preachy.

Seriously, you guys should ask more of Phil than empty promises... I just hope he delivers something meaningful in therms of content to the xbox platform at some point in the near future, otherwise he will be remembered as the guy who finished off what Mattrick started--the end of xbox.
Did you not read previous messages from me? I rather wait and see what's revealed in their upcoming events than throw around negative remarks and assumptions. What's hard to understand?

Also, why is Phil Spencer being brought up? Do you think I have a bias for one platform over the other?
 

Neo Blaster

Member
I will use a simple example of how game design CAN be affected by supporting old consoles:

Guerilla wanted to include flight in Horizon Zero Dawn, but had to pull it back cause PS4's mechanical HDD wouldn't be able to cope with the amount of data needed to be instantly loaded.

Moving on to the sequel, PS5 SSD fast speed will allow flight this time, but imagine they had to make it a crossgen game, so that PS4 is supported. They need to choose:

- Do they make two versions of the game, one with flight for PS5 and other without for PS4? What if flight bring and all new kind of gameplay for the game, so PS4 gamers will have a lacking experience? What about the cost and time spent to make two versions?

- Do they make only one version and ditch flight at all, so Guerrilla can't bring their ideal game vision to life cause PS4 gamers have to be included?

It's really curious how OP talked about game design not being affected in the thread title, but used and example from The Medium dev about how their game wouldn't be possible on Xbox One S/X. This time, the dev chose not to compromise their vision, but what about FP studios that must include the old consoles?
 
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It's not binary logic. I am pointing out that if a game is designed to accommodate slow disc-read speed, slow HDD speed, bottlenecked processor, limited system RAM, etc then the game designers will be forced to omit things that might take advantage of fast HDD speed, larger processor, larger and faster system RAM, etc.

This happens on PC every single generation. PC gets the faster framerate and LoD, but the funamental design remains the same. You're still stuck with 6-person "huge battles", bottlenecked map design, and combat systems designed with a twin-stick controller in mind.

We can rewind to the beginning of this gen and observe the difference between cross-gen titles and their true "next gen" successors. Titanfall -> Titanfall 2 and Metal Gear Solid 5 -> Death Stranding both show an unmistakable transition in game design that could not likely have been replicated on the 360 or PS3.

You say all of that yet Grand Theft Auto 5 a game that came out on the PS3 and 360 was one of the best games of this generation with millions of copies sold. In fact I'd say that that game is better than any LAUNCH Xbox One or PS4 title. It also has a huge open-world and on the PC some amazing mods that make the game look better than just about anything else around.. Do you honestly believe that there will be LAUNCH window PS5 games that will blow away Last of Us 2 or Got?

It takes YEARS for studios to really master new hardware and guess what? The XBOX Series X exclusive titles will arrive in that time frame. There is NOTHING wrong with what MS is doing supporting Xbox One for a while and ensuring that those people who bought their hardware are not totally left out immediately. They are respecting their customers something many on their forum rightfully attacked them for at the beginning of this cycle for NOT doing. Looks like for some no matter what they do they are wrong.
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
You say all of that yet Grand Theft Auto 5 a game that came out on the PS3 and 360 was one of the best games of this generation with millions of copies sold. In fact I'd say that that game is better than any LAUNCH Xbox One or PS4 title. It also has a huge open-world and on the PC some amazing mods that make the game look better than just about anything else around.. Do you honestly believe that there will be LAUNCH window PS5 games that will blow away Last of Us 2 or Got?
Red herring. The successful sales of a videogame at the beginning of a gen does not have anything to do with hardware holding back its game design.

It takes YEARS for studios to really master new hardware and guess what? The XBOX Series X exclusive titles will arrive in that time frame. There is NOTHING wrong with what MS is doing supporting Xbox One for a while and ensuring that those people who bought their hardware are not totally left out immediately. They are respecting their customers something many on their forum rightfully attacked them for at the beginning of this cycle for NOT doing. Looks like for some no matter what they do they are wrong.
Okay. This doesn't address anything I previously said.
 
Just repeating what many have said already, we know 3rd Party will be cross-gen initially on Xbox and Playstation, I recall that always seems to be the case when a new generation starts.

On paper MS have put together some great 1st Party studios and I feel MS really need to show something impressive running on the SX from their 1st Party, I also think they need to come in slightly cheap then the PS5
 

kuncol02

Banned
I'm not sure what you mean, Killzone:SF is still a pretty good looking game, as is Ryse (Killzone:SF is the better game of the two, it has moments where it shine, while Ryse is boring every single minutes you spend playing it)--the point is, both could have a release trailer presented today as a PS4/xbo game and nobody would say they look "dated".

Killzone Shadowfall:
original.jpg


Rise Son of Rome
2384721-ryse_1.jpg
Shadow Fall is not ugly game, but lack of ambient occlusion is quite jarring and it's lack is quite shocking for me, because I was sure it was standard even on previous generation. It's funny how memory fails us.
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
That is some binary logic. The best games of a current generation are usually better than the launch games of the next. There is nothing wrong with limited time current hardware support to show appreciation for the investment of your customers.

Unless launch PS5 games are better than Halo Infinite and Last of Us 2 Microsoft's approach will be seen as the most consumer friendly of the two and have no long term impact on future games. Win-win especially when so many are suffering financially.
If I'm spending $499 I want games built for it, that's consumer friendly to me
 

SScorpio

Member
There has only been one launch title in history that actually managed to show the console's full potential. That title is Ryse. To this day it looks glorious. Take other launch titles like Killzone Shadowfall and you see what is the reality of your average launch exclusive. They are typically rushed games that were developed on a previous generation and had final hardware for the last five months of their development. This is true for games coming out in the first two years on any new platform. Devs don't "find" more performance. A launch title uses 100 % of the power just as a late gen title. But they learn how to work around the limitations. In the beginning of a generation these are less visible, because those games started on older hardware and can run at full resolution and even double the frame rate easily - but they are still at their core last gen games.

It's not even a new thing. Zoo Tycoon was crossgen. Forza Horizon 2 was crossgen. Titanfall was crossgen. Microsoft is just doing the exact same thing again, probably ending the Xbox One support with Forza Horizon 5.

Rogue Leader on the GameCube says hi.
 
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