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Opinion Retro Trailer Why Was Metal Gear Solid So Good?

Ozrimandias

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My favorite game....before MGSV.

As the time passes, I found this saga less good.
To me, the highest point was MGS2, the lowest probably MGSV.

Maybe the whole "Vocal Parasite stuff" and the resurrection of Volgin, the high influence of Kojima making the story a complete mess, Quiet being there because of reasons, the whole Kieffer Sutherland instead of Hayter because Hollywood just to say a few lines, etc.
 
Jan 11, 2019
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My favorite game....before MGSV.

As the time passes, I found this saga less good.
To me, the highest point was MGS2, the lowest probably MGSV.

Maybe the whole "Vocal Parasite stuff" and the resurrection of Volgin, the high influence of Kojima making the story a complete mess, Quiet being there because of reasons, the whole Kieffer Sutherland instead of Hayter because Hollywood just to say a few lines, etc.
 

PresetError

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My favorite game....before MGSV.

As the time passes, I found this saga less good.
To me, the highest point was MGS2, the lowest probably MGSV.

Maybe the whole "Vocal Parasite stuff" and the resurrection of Volgin, the high influence of Kojima making the story a complete mess, Quiet being there because of reasons, the whole Kieffer Sutherland instead of Hayter because Hollywood just to say a few lines, etc.

Kojima is Metal Gear Solid. If you loved Metal Gear and then hated Metal Gear it was all Kojima. The parts you loved and the parts you hated.
 

Ozrimandias

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From a narrative perspective? Agree. From a game play perspective, the opposite is true.

Yeah, from a narrative perspective. In terms of gameplay, the game suffers but....you know the first time I heard the word "meme" was in this game, almost 20 years ago, before the term was even a thing. The control of the public opinion via the internet, the whole patriot's theme and other things makes this gem a game ahead of its time (again, as you said from a narrative perspective). After that, it became a mess in my opinion.
 
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Ozrimandias

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Kojima is Metal Gear Solid. If you loved Metal Gear and then hated Metal Gear it was all Kojima. The parts you loved and the parts you hated.

I think'so. I played the hell out of Death Stranding, i loved the proposal, yet, some how hate the story and all the overcomplex stuff.
Like in MGSV, MGS4 and Peace Walker maybe.

I don't know but i think that after MGS2, Kojima tried to get rid of the military and conspirational story telling to begin with an "auteur" approach.
 

DJ Shalad

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100% agree.
Someone even started an animated series that looked to good to be true.

 

Raziel

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A major reason is the guy who did the translation (same guy who did SOTN, "what is a man" etc).


He gave the script more flair and made it more natural for English speakers. Not only would he never get the opportunity to translate another game in the series, subsequent translations were more 1:1 regardless if it sounded good or made sense. This is probably why MGS1 feels the most like the America/Hollywood blockbuster it aspires to be and the sequels feel more weird and Japanese and.. anime.

What this meant for the script was that I had to come up with jargon to “sell” the image. I did my best. Kojima didn’t use the term “HALO” when he described jumping from high in the air and opening the chute at a low altitude to enter the site. (This was also years before the Halo series debuted.) But I found the term for a high-altitude, low-opening jump in my reading, so it went into the game.

When I read that Snake’s earpiece was just called a 無線機 (“wireless”), I tried to come up with something better for American players. I researched the problem for a significant amount of time before coming across something called a “codec” that I thought sounded cool. I had never heard the term before, but it sounded pretty official.

When Campbell told Snake that he would have to do 現地調達 (“acquire locally”) for his weapons, I knew I needed something that sounded like military jargon. The only problem is that no one in real life would ever put themselves in that situation if they could help it, so I coined the term OSP, or “on-site procurement,” which is still used to this day.

In addition to jargon, I used this opportunity to flesh out characters every chance I had. Too often, in translation, the meaning is kept but all feeling is lost. It must be added back in by the translator.

One example would be when Campbell said, “I’m not a colonel anymore,” in Japanese. I changed it to “I’m not a colonel anymore, just a retired old warhorse.”

Here’s another example, this time from Snake. Let me ask you which option sounds better:
  • A) “I’m just a guy who can only find meaning on the battlefield.”
  • B) “I’m just a man who’s good at what he does. Killing.”
You can probably guess that B is mine, and A is how my translation was “improved” for Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes.

From what I heard at the time, Kojima began to hear that his work had been “tinkered” with. I’d argue there might have been a lack of appreciation for the needs of localization due to his not being bilingual, but he was not happy. As a result, all future Metal Gear games would be closely monitored for fidelity to the original Japanese script.

This approach resulted in lines like: “I won’t scatter your sorrow to the heartless sea. I will always be with you. Plant your roots in me. I won’t see you end as ashes. You’re all diamonds.”

Some players find this sort of dialogue endearing, but I’d argue that it could have been massaged a bit more for English-speaking players. That’s not up to me, although I’m very proud of the work I put into Metal Gear Solid. The reviews were very positive at the time, and many mentioned the quality of the translation and voice-over work in the game.
 
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Kept you waiting, huh?

Because:

+ Great Story
+ Amazing Weapons and Gadgets
+ Grey Fox
+ Original and charismatic Bosses
+ Epic OST
+Dual endings


But for me still and forever will be Metal Gear Solid 2 Sons of liberty and i like the idea to play Raiden as character, and their twist plot.... Best Cutscene sequence, The internet and tech as main point of the story. For me Best metal gear ever!!! and better than Snake eater.
 
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It isn't and never was. I played it at the time and even as a teenager I thought it was unimpressive. I have never cared for stealth in games that are that linear. The boss battles are more annoying than inventive. The plot is like some kind of weird mish-mash between something more serious and American and Japanese anime eccentricities. The first time I played a metal gear solid with truly good gameplay was V because it dropped the overly scripted nature of the franchise. Kojima clearly wants to make movies but the young gamer audience was exactly the right target if you wanted people who wouldn't scrutinise the level of exposition in a game that still doesn't make sense. People who would celebrate an 18-hour game being 9 hours of cutscene. People who didn't know what a proper tone for a game was to have a problem with awkward tonal shifts.

Part of me envies people who were the right age or right mindset to enjoy this kind of thing, that might sound condescending but I really do think you have to be in a certain mindset to enjoy these games and the best evidence of that I seen is that the fans of this franchise think part 5 is the worst one which to me is so weird. I'm sitting here like finally a reason to use all these silly options finally a game that actually gives me a sandbox to play in where these things are actually useful. I'm playing metal gear solid 3 words giving me all these dumb camouflage options to get through 2 minutes of gameplay. all these silly tutorials that gave me none of them really mattered because the game played like a Michael Bay movie with small gameplay arenas sprinkled throughout that anyone could brute force their way through with enough patience or tenacity.

I feel like I'm on the outside looking in like the people who hate Half-Life 2, the difference between me and them being that one episode two went more open for the finale I thought it was amazing and was totally welcoming a more open world half life or even if it meant spacing out the cinematic nature of the game more. But the reception 5 receipt proved to me that the average metal gear solid fan was more interested in the absurd incomprehensible stories than the interesting game play systems and how they interact with the world. which again I don't totally get to me stealth just doesn't work if there's not enough different paths stealth is trial and error and there's only one way to do it it annoys me and bores me.
 

Lionel Richie

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Kojima is Metal Gear Solid. If you loved Metal Gear and then hated Metal Gear it was all Kojima. The parts you loved and the parts you hated.

Not entirely true, over the years you had guys like Tomokazu Fukushima, Kazunobu Uehara, Kenichiro Imaizumi and Etsu Tamari that played a huge part in shaping up the series. Heck, as soon as Fukushima bolted after 3 the series tanked noticeably in the writing and Tamari wrote the best story since that initial trilogy. Kojima is a legend, but he had some help.
 

INC

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Mgs1
Mgs3
Mgs2
Mgs4
Mgsv:gz
Mgs v

In an ideal world remake mgs1 in mgsv:gz
 
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TheInfamousKira

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I think the point WAS in the tiny areas and heavily scripted A.I. routines and the vast amount of options. Yes, you COULD brute force your way through it, but obviously that isn't a very fun or fulfilling way to approach it. These small areas WERE your sandbox, kind of like the board in a tabletop game. Yes, you could find yourself not in the mood to play the game, and halfass through it and rush it, or you could really adapt to the expansive rule book and find exciting ways to interact, exploit and even cheese the the board. Playing this game under the notion of modern game design philosophy probably hurts the experience, so I'd make the argument that you DO have to adjust your mindset, and therefore these games may not have "aged gracefully," but it is definitely a series that is rewarding if you engage in it on it's own terms. That's kind of a KojiPro staple at this point.
 
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HE1NZ

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It isn't and never was. I played it at the time and even as a teenager I thought it was unimpressive. I have never cared for stealth in games that are that linear. The boss battles are more annoying than inventive. The plot is like some kind of weird mish-mash between something more serious and American and Japanese anime eccentricities. The first time I played a metal gear solid with truly good gameplay was V because it dropped the overly scripted nature of the franchise. Kojima clearly wants to make movies but the young gamer audience was exactly the right target if you wanted people who wouldn't scrutinise the level of exposition in a game that still doesn't make sense. People who would celebrate an 18-hour game being 9 hours of cutscene. People who didn't know what a proper tone for a game was to have a problem with awkward tonal shifts.

Part of me envies people who were the right age or right mindset to enjoy this kind of thing, that might sound condescending but I really do think you have to be in a certain mindset to enjoy these games and the best evidence of that I seen is that the fans of this franchise think part 5 is the worst one which to me is so weird. I'm sitting here like finally a reason to use all these silly options finally a game that actually gives me a sandbox to play in where these things are actually useful. I'm playing metal gear solid 3 words giving me all these dumb camouflage options to get through 2 minutes of gameplay. all these silly tutorials that gave me none of them really mattered because the game played like a Michael Bay movie with small gameplay arenas sprinkled throughout that anyone could brute force their way through with enough patience or tenacity.

I feel like I'm on the outside looking in like the people who hate Half-Life 2, the difference between me and them being that one episode two went more open for the finale I thought it was amazing and was totally welcoming a more open world half life or even if it meant spacing out the cinematic nature of the game more. But the reception 5 receipt proved to me that the average metal gear solid fan was more interested in the absurd incomprehensible stories than the interesting game play systems and how they interact with the world. which again I don't totally get to me stealth just doesn't work if there's not enough different paths stealth is trial and error and there's only one way to do it it annoys me and bores me.
Felt exactly the same. Played the series around the time V was coming out, to catch up. All 30 minutes of stealth in MGS1 had as much depth as Zelda combat on NES and annoying boss battles is where most of the gameplay is. Couldn't figure out if story is a poor attempt at comedy or just written by a 9 year old. Later entries are more obviously comedy, though you need to be a 9 year old to think there's jungles in Siberia.

MGS4 is the first one that feels like a decent action game and I actually enjoyed how the story ends. MGSV has really good gameplay, maybe Kojima should have incorporated it into a whole new franchise.
 
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I think the point WAS in the tiny areas and heavily scripted A.I. routines and the vast amount of options. Yes, you COULD brute force your way through it, but obviously that isn't a very fun or fulfilling way to approach it. These small areas WERE your sandbox, kind of like the board in a tabletop game. Yes, you could find yourself not in the mood to play the game, and halfass through it and rush it, or you could really adapt to the expansive rule book and find exciting ways to interact, exploit and even cheese the the board. Playing this game under the notion of modern game design philosophy probably hurts the experience, so I'd make the argument that you DO have to adjust your mindset, and therefore these games may not have "aged gracefully," but it is definitely a series that is rewarding if you engage in it on it's own terms. That's kind of a KojiPro staple at this point.
My only problem with this is I didn't like it at the time either, but to be fair I was much less a fan of the stealth genre back then. You know until maybe the mid-2000s I would have just told people stealth isn't my genre then all of a sudden all these games begin incorporating optional stealth and I found that when the stealth is optional I can actually really enjoy it.
 

TheInfamousKira

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My only problem with this is I didn't like it at the time either, but to be fair I was much less a fan of the stealth genre back then. You know until maybe the mid-2000s I would have just told people stealth isn't my genre then all of a sudden all these games begin incorporating optional stealth and I found that when the stealth is optional I can actually really enjoy it.

Oh, to be sure, I generally *really* enjoy the option to have several different ways of approaching a problem in a game. Provided they're all equally fleshed out and viable solutions, I think trying to do non lethal stealth in TLOU2 is an example of "this game was really built with murdering everyone in mind," and other options are lesser because of it, the same as early Metal Gear games take the exact opposite approach. But again, I've kind of just become accustomed to engaging with things based on their own specific rules about what can be done, and what can be done most effectively factors into that equation. I've certainly been guilty of just AKing/tranqing an entire screen of enemies in MGS titles before, but then you see those crazy Japanese LP's of people luring 12 soldiers to their deaths using porno mags, Crocodile caps and claymores or whatever, and it's just kind of remarkable the depth of choice available if you take the time to invest in it.

I feel a lot of these games were made with replayability in mind via the numerous systems, weapons, gear and unlockables in mind, whereas games nowadays that are similarly linear and story driven have a real lack of customization and evolving gameplay over the duration of the campaign, and I feel like the surface level similarities may fool some people into thinking they're exactly the same sort of experience. (Not saying I DISLIKE linear, story driven titles, granted)
 
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#Phonepunk#

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it was the voice acting in the first MGS

everything since has been chasing some (spectacular) dragons
 

LarknThe4th

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Compared to MSGV? Nah. It's my favorite and the most interesting though.
I know control wise it's not the best, MGS 5 is just stunning in that regard, but obviously gameplay is more than that.

The moment to moment intricacies and gameplay scenario design is so refined and bespoke that it is leagues ahead of the rest of them, and the other MGSs are excellent games!!!

Man 2005 gave us this and Resi 4.....

And people say the industry is better than ever
 
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bender

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I know control wise it's not the best, MGS 5 is just stunning in that regard, but obviously gameplay is more than that.

The moment to moment intricacies and gameplay scenario design is so refined and bespoke that it is leagues ahead of the rest of them, and the other MGSs are excellent games!!!

Man 2005 gave us this and Resi 4.....

And people say the industry is better than ever

I love the environments, survival mechanics, camouflage system and bosses in MSG3, but the control and sandbox elements in MGS5 are divine plus it has the addicting Fulton system from Peace Walker.
 

Blitzmangoman

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If only they would make good remakes of MG 1&2 and MGS1.
*Cries in Pachinko, wohooooooow into the distance*
 

LarknThe4th

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I love the environments, survival mechanics, camouflage system and bosses in MSG3, but the control and sandbox elements in MGS5 are divine plus it has the addicting Fulton system from Peace Walker.
To be honest I felt the sandbox elements to get very repetitive very fast and the Fulton and on a wider scale mother base stuff to be the antithesis of what makes Metal Gear special

Ground Zeroes was the perfect blend if MGS 5 was that throughout, then I would have been on board

But the constant back and forth to base and managing soldiers and stuff bleh, like MGS to me is being dropped into a unique hostile environment and making your way through it, and on the way meeting a cast of bizarre characters all whilst the layers of the story get peeled back

I think Kojima lost his way big style after 3, ah well still have the first 3 to always enjoy
 

bender

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To be honest I felt the sandbox elements to get very repetitive very fast and the Fulton and on a wider scale mother base stuff to be the antithesis of what makes Metal Gear special

Ground Zeroes was the perfect blend if MGS 5 was that throughout, then I would have been on board

But the constant back and forth to base and managing soldiers and stuff bleh, like MGS to me is being dropped into a unique hostile environment and making your way through it, and on the way meeting a cast of bizarre characters all whilst the layers of the story get peeled back

I think Kojima lost his way big style after 3, ah well still have the first 3 to always enjoy

I think MGSV is a great game, just not a great Metal Gear game. Like you said, Kiefer was a mistake and outside of the opening mission, it really doesn't feel much like a Metal Gear game. I do love the Fulton System but I seem to be one of the few people that loves Peace Walker (it's a much better representation of evolving mechanics but weaving that into Metal Gear's usual structure). If I had to rank the games overall, I'd go:

MSG1 = MGS3 > MGS2 Demo > Peace Walker > MGSV > MGS4 > MGS2

While I think MGS2 is brilliant in a lot of ways, it's the only game in the series I hate. Raiden sucks (props to MGS4 for redeeming him), Big Shell sucks and all of the bosses suck.
 
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LarknThe4th

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I think MGSV is a great game, just not a great Metal Gear game. Like you said, Kiefer was a mistake and outside of the opening mission, it really doesn't feel much like a Metal Gear game. I do love the Fulton System but I seem to be one of the few people that loves Peace Walker (it's a much better representation of evolving mechanics but weaving that into Metal Gear's usual structure). If I had to rank the games overall, I'd go:

MSG1 = MGS3 > MGS2 Demo > Peace Walker > MGSV > MGS4 > MGS2

While I think MGS2 is brilliant in a lot of ways, it's the only game in the series I hate. Raiden sucks (props to MGS4 for redeeming him), Big Shell sucks and all of the bosses suck.
Interesting listing there, I would put it like

MGS3, MGS, MGS 2, Ground Zeroes, MGS 4, MGS 5

And I think you are right MGS 5 should maybe have been a new IP from Kojima

Also seeing as ya know your stuff I would highly reccomend a youtube video titled "MGS 4 was a mistake" by Steak Bentley

It's a fantastic video and really takes the viewer on a journey, a must watch for Metal Gear heads!
 
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bender

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Interesting listing there, I would put it like

MGS3, MGS, MGS 2, Ground Zeroes, MGS 4, MGS 5

And I think you are right MGS 5 should maybe have been a new IP from Kojima

Also seeing as ya know your stuff I would highly reccomend a youtube video titled "MGS 4 was a mistake" by Steak Bentley

It's a fantastic video and really takes the viewer on a journey, a must watch for Metal Gear heads!

3:26 minutes! I'll watch it.

To be fair, I've only completed MGS4 once and that's a rarity for Metal Gear games in me (I guess I've only played MGSV once too but I still boot it up from time to time to replay missions and improve my save file). I've gone back a few times and only gotten a few hours in. I think mechanically it's a weird half step between classic MGS and MGSV. I might actually hate it too if I ever had the will to finish it again. Does't help that it's trapped on the PS3.
 
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LarknThe4th

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3:26 minutes! I'll watch it.

To be fair, I've only completed MGS4 once and that's a rarity for Metal Gear games in me (I guess I've only played MGSV once too but I still boot it up from time to time to replay missions and improve my save file). I've gone back a few times and only gotten a few hours in. I think mechanically it's a weird half step between classic MGS and MGSV. I might actually hate it too if I ever had the will to finish it again. Does't help that it's trapped on the PS3.
Ya wont regret it, it's my favourite youtube vid

Get a few beers in and a pizza and your golden!
 

bender

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Ya wont regret it, it's my favourite youtube vid

Get a few beers in and a pizza and your golden!

Watching now while I'm waiting on Nioh 2 summons. Why am I an idiot running around the final levels at level 20 with 23 million Amrita? I do this in the Souls games too. Fuck my brain.

More randomness: I loved playing MGSV so much that I finished Survive. And speaking of hate and Kojima, hello Death Stranding.
 
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bender

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Whiny main character that spends his time in a huge monotonous level that ends up fighting a lady you can't shoot with bullets, a fat man on roller blades (90s! Fuck Yeah) , a Harrier fight (Hind D was better) a vampire that can't die, approximately 8000 metal gear rays (How do we top that Ray fight? With quantity of course), and a clunky Solidus Sword fight that makes the series other 1v1 melee boss encounters seem like you are playing a Virtua Fighter. Juxtaposed to the brilliance of the Tanker level from the demo., it just feels like a b-tier effort. The Raiden switch was brilliant and will never be replicated (fuck you Halo 2 Arbiter) and the narrative is prophetic, but as a game...nah.

Even Steak Bentley is dunking on Peace Walker. I'm dying on this hill. I'll have to figure out why it's hated so much.
 
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TexMex

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Still is. I replayed it recently, bracing myself for it not being as fun as it is in my memory - and it completely held up. A masterpiece.

And fuck it. I love Twin Snakes too. Not as much, but the hate it gets isn’t deserved imo.
 

PresetError

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Not entirely true, over the years you had guys like Tomokazu Fukushima, Kazunobu Uehara, Kenichiro Imaizumi and Etsu Tamari that played a huge part in shaping up the series. Heck, as soon as Fukushima bolted after 3 the series tanked noticeably in the writing and Tamari wrote the best story since that initial trilogy. Kojima is a legend, but he had some help.

Then tell me the amazing projects Tomokazu Fukushima has worked on since 2005.