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Why Jedi Survivor's seamless gameplay puts God of War and Ragnarok to shame

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Drizzlehell

Banned
Pay attention, because what I'm about to say isn't about one game being better than the other. That's not what I'm arguing at all. Whichever game you prefer is entirely up to your personal taste.

What I'm saying is that games like God of War and Ragnarok fall short of being video games first and they usually create this sharp contrast between gameplay and story that became such a cliche that it puts me off of most modern PlayStation style games these days. Jedi Survivor, however, shows how it can be done to create a seamless gaming experience where the story is an integral part, but never overwhelms the gameplay. It manages to successfully balance its elements to create a well-paced adventure and I genuinely think that developers of games such as God of War and Ragnarok should pay attention and take notes on how to do it better. Here's why.

1. Story-focused segments never forcibly replace the core gameplay loop for lengthy periods of time.​

I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that most players really hated Atreus' segments in GoW:R, with a particular vitriol aimed towards those lengthy sequences where you're forced to ride a yak while talking to diverse female sidekick and collecting plums off the trees. I know that I certainly couldn't wait to get back into Kratos' shoes whenever the game forced you into those segments where you have to play as his dipshit kid. And how about the sections where you row a boat while listening to Mimir's endless stories? Or slowly walking around with a tree or a piggy on your shoulder? Riveting stuff.

These are the kind of standout moments that usually discourage me from ever replaying any of those games because it's just a bunch of pretentious bullshit that not only takes itself way too seriously, but it also commits the cardinal sin of bringing the momentum of the game to a grinding halt, completely killing my appetite for the rest of the game. In Jedi Survivor, on the other hand, the longest segment where you're forced to slowly walk somewhere and listen to the exposition happens at the very start of the game, and not only does it make sense for it to be there as a semi-interactive introduction to the story, but it's also over within a couple of minutes, after which the game rarely ever wrestles the controls from the player. Not unless it's for a non-interactive cutscene that's usually very purposeful and delivers an important plot point. Nowhere in the game will you be forced to do a completely pointless and self-indulgent action that serves absolutely no purpose or stops everything dead in its tracks just to show off an animation or slowly labor its plot point into a fucking wall with a sledgehammer. With almost everything that you do in the game, it's there to either move the plot forward or to entertain you. Even during those moments of downtime where your journey takes you back to the home base area (like the bar on Koboh) you can have some conversations with the NPCs that hang around there, but you never have to do it. Those moments being optional is the key to making them more compelling because it I just personally feel more incentivized to listen to a bit of extra dialogue if I know that I'm free to turn on my heel at any moment and just fuck off to do some more exploring.

2. Combat isn't the only thing that makes for a fun challenge in the game.​

In many modern third-person action adventure games, platforming is the one element that has been dumbed down to the point of absurdity. And in games like God of War in particular, it requires precisely zero skill because all you gotta do is to push the analog stick in the right direction to continue the pre-baked animation. There's zero effort or dexterity involved with this. It's such a giant waste of time that it honestly boggles my mind as to why would the developer even put that shit in there, unless someone at SMS is really into staring at Kratos' ass for extended periods of time. The same design philosophy extends to puzzle design as well, at least in my opinion. Most of those puzzles can be solved by anyone with a double-digit IQ and it usually only requires you to throw your axe at something. It's mind-numbingly dull and it only makes me wish for the game to go back to fighting.

In Jedi Survivor, on the other hand, not only the platforming involves wide variety of moves, but it's also possible to fuck it up. The game even features those special challenge rooms where you have to run and jump through a gauntlet of platforms and hazards, and shockingly enough some of them are actually challenging. Combine that with a puzzle system that also involves a wide variety of gadgets and ideas, and you've got yourself a game that absolutely blows God of War out of the water in terms of creativity, variety, and challenge in gameplay areas that don't involve fighting.

3. Third person melee combat with a camera that stays close to the action and it's actually manageable.​

Now, I already harped on this point once when I made a thread in which I said that Ryse: Son of Rome had a better designed camera for this type of melee action game, so it feels especially gratifying when another game like this comes out and it only proves the point I was trying to make back then. Because unlike Ryse, Jedi Survivor features a combat system that's actually fun and has a lot of variety to it, and doesn't rely on shitty quick-time events. But what it also does is that it doesn't stubbornly force you to control your character as if you were playing a third person shooter, even though your primary means of attack involves melee weapons. You're actually allowed to orbit the camera around the action and perform the attacks in the direction of your analog stick movements. What a crazy idea, huh.

Of course, it's not like the combat in Jedi Survivor is perfect. I do feel that it has its own set of problems, but at least it feels more organic and natural compared to God of War as a third person melee action game.

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I could go on but if I'm gonna write another paragraph then it's gonna turn into a novel, lol.
 
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tommycronin

Member
You're absolutely right and there's games that do it better than Jedi Survivor too. Most of the combat in Ragnarok is actually pointless outside of bosses and only servers as map markers on where to go next as all they do is drop 17 hacksilver for every trash mob fight.
 
To my tastes JS goes too heavy on platforming, I feel like i just jumped and climbed for most of my game time and I really can't say that part was particularly interesting. Well, tbh iirc also JFO's combat was more challenging that JS
 

winjer

Gold Member
I cant talk about Gow:R, as I haven't played yet. But I did finish Jedi Survivor.
But the story in Jedi Survivor is it's weakest point. And it affects negatively some combat sequences, as they thought it would be nice to interupt combat to make a QTE or to have some cutscene.
Also, in some fights, the enemy doesn't shut up. The worst is the last fight with Dagan, because the guy will not shut the f*** up.

Puzzles and platforming in Jedi Survivor are great. But there were a few times where the platforming was overstaying it's welcome.

And the camera in Jedi Survivor sometimes got me killed because it lost track of the enemy. Or was stuck near a wall.
 

Gaiff

Gold Member
God of War Ragnarok tried to shove two games worth of plot into one game and the end-result is a sloppily paced and unsatisfying story. The Ragnarok event was a joke. All this build-up for a fight involving like 10 people. All this lore about Tyr for what? To see him do Tai Chi in all the realms when you discover the truth. Ironwood is a 2-hours-long borefest that seems to belong in a David Cage game.

It's too bad Cory Barlog insisted on this saga concluding in two games. It needed 3 or at least 2+ a DLC to properly flesh out the plot and characters instead of dumping 30 of them all at once and dropping hours upon hours of exposition every few minutes.
 

Lupin25

Member
It’s kind of funny, because Jedi Survivor seems takes notes with its traversal from Uncharted lol, a Sony made game.
 
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Thirty7ven

Banned
Hyperbolic arguments make discussion really hard to take seriously.

There were people that liked Fallen Order more than GOW 18 and this seems to be no different. But when you need to make statements that belittle another great game, it just makes it seem like you have a bone to pick. It’s also starting to look like you are emotional about Sony games, and God of War, per your previous and current thread. Rise for example was bad top to bottom, and I have a hard time believing anybody wasting their time defending that one if not for very emotional reasons.
 
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kiphalfton

Member
Yeah, I hate when they show you doing crazy moves in cutscenes like jumping but then in the game itself you can't jump.
 
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Markio128

Member
Great, another hot take.

trump lol GIF by Learn Something Every Day
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I really hope SSM takes a long hard look at the dozens of walking segments and atreus sections, and learns that this is BAD game design. Even ND didnt go this hard and they started this nonsense.

You have to design video games so they can be played over and over again. Allow me to skip cutscenes, walking segments and even nonsense press up platforming sequences. Jedi does a great job of making platforming challenging. Though some of them do go on forever.

I dont care about gow's third person camera complaints. Its a unique combat system. it's a unique perspective. It works fine. The combat is deep and the best thing about the game. The exploration is rewarding unlike Jedi which just throws literally hundreds of bullshit collectibles at you. I have yet to play anything as seemless and dynamic as GoW's Crater level in Jedi though im only half way through.

SSM simply fucked up the pacing by introducing Atreues as a playable character and adding all those forced walking sections which coupled with 2 minute long loading scenes in the realm between realms and unskippable cutscenes made the game a chore to play. Unacceptable.
 

Shakka43

Member
You don't need to put another game down to try to prop up your favorite new thing, if it's good enough it'll stand on its own merits.
 

Ansphn

Member
The combat is good but its not as good or challenging as GOW (Not even close honestly) I Plat GOW and about to plat this game. What this game has over GOW is the movement/traversal. GOW also blows this away in cinematic and narrative quality. Survivor has this weird black bar and oddly timed cuts from black bar transition to gameplay.
 
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MiguelItUp

Member
I will say that Survivor and even Fallen Order felt like they had much more game on their bones than GoW and Ragnarok. More so Ragnarok as I felt like majority of that game I was watching or listening as opposed to actually playing.

But, I wouldn't really compare them otherwise. Aside from them being action games with upgradeable skill trees, there's no other real comparison.
 
Performance aside it feels like such a breath of fresh air after Ragnarok. For me Ragnarok honestly felt like a chore by the end of the game.

I felt the same with TLOU2 and will never finish that game despite appreciating the fact the game has best in class motion capture, voice acting, AI etc.

I think story heavy stuff just isn't for me or at least when it constantly wrestles control from you or forces loads of slow walking as if you find the story boring it just feels like a slog. Maybe I have undiagnosed ADHD or something but I'll happily play Civ or Total War for 100s of hours so I dunno.

Different people like different stuff though and if the story is gripping you I can see why you would think Ragnarok is amazing as the combat and presentation is very good too but I much prefer how the story is more minimally presented in Jedi Survivor.
 

Mr.Phoenix

Member
I enjoyed the first one. And I am sure I will enjoy this one too.

You see? I don't have to say shit about some other really good game to make what I've just said here mean more.

But then again, I am sure you knew if you just came handmade a thread saying, I prefer SWJS to GOWR all anyone would say is good for you or me too.

I personally avoid threads that talk about games like this, and that's because I feel that when it comes to what games we like and why, it's all subjective. The very thing one person says they love about a game, there would be someone that hates the game for that same thing.
 

RagnarokIV

Member
Agreed.

But does Jedi not have painted ledges so you know where to jump? And is the lightsaber no longer like a glowing baseball bat for combat? If so I will buy it.
 
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