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[Dr. Suchong]

Probably because the majority of gamers are dumb as a bag of rocks.

 

[R6Rider]

Because people would rather buy lazy annual Pokemon, CoD, and sports titles.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

Cause they're not that good. haha. Joking aside, I don't think first person view has a ton of support outside of mindless shooters and VR games. I bet they'd be better off making 3rd person games.

 

[SirKicksalot]

The Lyon studio crawled up its own ass soon after the first Dishonored. They've been banging on the same game design drum for over a decade and are trapped in the same nighmarish art style. It worked for the first Dishonored but there was no reason to make Fantasy Greece and Sci-Fi Iceland look exactly the same. Well, not exactly - Deathloop's exteriors are boring as fuck.

The Austin studio was killed by marketing. The name debacle and the inability to sell what made Prey special. The moment Prey clicked for me was the moment I realised it's a gigantic diorama and you can pop out one door, circle it on the outside and go back in through another door. Bethesda simply couldn't market this. They insisted on dude who are you lmao and dude teacups lmao and that's not what made the game special.

Funny how Lyon tends to constrain the player (the chaos mechanic for most Dishonoreds, the unique solution for Deathloop) while Austin is the exact opposite.
Dark Messiah is still their best.

 

[thegame983]

I think there are just better versions of their games out there. Deus Ex & Bioshock off the top of my head.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Don't worry. Sales are not going to matter thanks to game pass.

Retention time will matter, if no one downloads the game or only plays it for 5min, MS isn't going to give the studio money if it isnt a benefit to their GP system. The same way Netflix axes series after a season if the view counts arent there.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Retention time will matter, if no one downloads the game or only plays it for 5min, MS isn't going to give the studio money if it isnt a benefit to their GP system. The same way Netflix axes series after a season if the view counts arent there.

So be it.

 

[Kvally]

The Lyon studio crawled up its own ass soon after the first Dishonored. They've been banging on the same game design drum for over a decade and are trapped in the same nighmarish art style. It worked for the first Dishonored but there was no reason to make Fantasy Greece and Sci-Fi Iceland look exactly the same. Well, not exactly - Deathloop's exteriors are boring as fuck.

The Austin studio was killed by marketing. The name debacle and the inability to sell what made Prey special. The moment Prey clicked for me was the moment I realised it's a gigantic diorama and you can pop out one door, circle it on the outside and go back in through another door. Bethesda simply couldn't market this. They insisted on dude who are you lmao and dude teacups lmao and that's not what made the game special.

Funny how Lyon tends to constrain the player (the chaos mechanic for most Dishonoreds, the unique solution for Deathloop) while Austin is the exact opposite.
Dark Messiah is still their best.

I have tried to read this a couple times now, and I am still confused.

 

[zcaa0g]

Because the character models hands are bigger than their heads? It's disturbing!

 

[Kvally]

Because the character models hands are bigger than their heads? It's disturbing!

 

[bentanchorbolt]

I never bought the narrative that games fail due to external factors. That always struck me as super fans running excuses because they don't want to think critically about their favorite games problems.

These games are fizzling due to fundamental design issues.

If you earnestly don't believe that external factors such as release date and marketing affect game sales then you should probably do some of that critical thinking you view as lacking in others. Titanfall 2 is a good game, scored in the high 80s on Metacritic across all platforms, panned critically for its single player campaign, controls like a dream in MP with great maps and modes, etc. Problem with Titanfall 2 is that is appeals to the same crowd as BF and CoD, and EA released the game right between the launch of those 2 games in 2016. Game isn't without its issues but I suspect had the game released in March instead of October, it would have been a different story sales wise.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

Their games aren't very good.

This is the reality of the situation as much as I hate to say it.

They find an audience with the hardcore because of the deep, open-ended nature; their design flatters the experienced gamer.

But they aren’t polished or slick enough to appeal to the mass market, they ask too much of the casual gamer that just wants to be taken along for a ride.

I think Deathloop attempted to address this with little success.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

If you ask me why people dont like Metal Gear Solid. I will give you a million reasons

Noted. I will never ask.

 

[proandrad]

Most fps fans are looking for multiplayer games. If they changed to 3rd person I bet their game sales would double.

 

[Lunarorbit]

Because they're the thinking-man's first person shooters, not the Michael Bay esque eye-catching explosion fests that market well in adverts.

I often hear they are walking simulators which is nuts. I like slower pace shooters and mp games rather than the faster twitch of COD.

It seems like arkane and remedy have similar stories as far as sales and appreciation. Everyone seems to like the ideas of these game studios but not nearly as many buy or play.

Control/Alan wake vs. Dishounored/prey/death loop.

 

[adamsapple]

I often hear they are walking simulators which is nuts. I like slower pace shooters and mp games rather than the faster twitch of COD.

It seems like arkane and remedy have similar stories as far as sales and appreciation. Everyone seems to like the ideas of these game studios but not nearly as many buy or play.

Control/Alan wake vs. Dishounored/prey/death loop.

Looks like Redfall is the most contemporary game Arkane has done owing to it looking the most like a modern shooter out of their catalogue.

Let's see if it gets real big.

 

[Beechos]

Easy the cartoony art style in all their games is not appealing to the masses. Gameplay video that gets shown also dont do their games justice, since lvl design and gameplay are their specialties.

It would benefit them to go with a more realistic art style, but then again if they did that their games would prob run like poop. I feel like this is the same problem most ms games have too with their cartoony avatar looking graphics.

 

[remember_spinal]

Most fps fans are looking for multiplayer games. If they changed to 3rd person I bet their game sales would double.

Although i really like dishonored I’d be lying if i said i wouldn’t enjoy them more in 3rd person

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Looks like Redfall is the most contemporary game Arkane has done owing to it looking the most like a modern shooter out of their catalogue.

Let's see if it gets real big.

Well, it'll be their biggest shot at mass appeal.

But it's a big open shooter, you fight zombies or vampires or whatever and it has online play so you got the social aspect of gaming in it. Cant really get any more mainstream than that. It's even got bright colours so anyone can join in if military brown and grey are too meh. It's even on Game Pass. So there should be a big natural boost to player count right off the bat from subbers.

The only things holding it back are two things: the cringey trailers and it seems it has no competitive online modes. Only coop. I dont play coop games, but I dont think the general online gaming community cares about coop as much as competitive MP.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

If you earnestly don't believe that external factors such as release date and marketing affect game sales then you should probably do some of that critical thinking you view as lacking in others. Titanfall 2 is a good game, scored in the high 80s on Metacritic across all platforms, panned critically for its single player campaign, controls like a dream in MP with great maps and modes, etc. Problem with Titanfall 2 is that is appeals to the same crowd as BF and CoD, and EA released the game right between the launch of those 2 games in 2016. Game isn't without its issues but I suspect had the game released in March instead of October, it would have been a different story sales wise.

I agree external factors have SOME effect. Super fans like to act as if external factors are the major reason it floundered.

EA has extremely capable and intelligent people who are paid handsomely to determine the effect of release schedules on games sales. They determined that CoD and BF would have minimal effect on T2.

They were right. The reason why T3 wasn't greenlit is because the results of the T2 autopsy concluded the IP isn't viable.

 

[justiceiro]

To be honest, i never played any of their games, and while I saw tons of people praising it, i never saw any trailer or marketing material convincing that the game is special.

It seems that they are games that you need to play to see how special they are, but by that point, you already bought them, so no need to get convinced.

 

[SkylineRKR]

They aren't the most mainstream games in terms of gameplay and challenge. Prey can be rather confusing and tough. And it was janky as fuck on last-gen systems.

Deathloop is a good game, but I couldn't get through it. Once you have to repeat the same levels over and over again for a small plot advancement I quit. I should complete it one day.

But their games are great. Dishonored 2 has excellent level design, and so does Prey. Both games are among my faves of last generation.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

I agree external factors have SOME effect. Super fans like to act as if external factors are the major reason it floundered.

EA has extremely capable and intelligent people who are paid handsomely to determine the effect of release schedules on games sales. They determined that CoD and BF would have minimal effect on T2.

They were right. The reason why T3 wasn't greenlit is because the results of the T2 autopsy concluded the IP isn't viable.

The head of Respawn admitted the release date was a mistake due to it being a "crowded" release window. source

“The game was successful, it sold well, but it didn’t quite sell as well as it should have,” he said. “Maybe because it was super-crowded, the pricing was aggressive–it was a rough window to launch our game.”

It's fine if you think the things you are saying are true, but they aren't and I suspect you know it but will double down because being wrong on the Internet is poison to some people.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Retention time will matter, if no one downloads the game or only plays it for 5min, MS isn't going to give the studio money if it isnt a benefit to their GP system. The same way Netflix axes series after a season if the view counts arent there.

True. Good point.

A few days ago, I found this comparison of user engagement in Deathloop on PlayStation vs. Xbox.

If user engagement turns out to be this low for Xbox-exclusive games, it could affect funding for their future games. After all, there will be some metric to measure performance of new games internally.

 

[EverydayBeast]

I hope there’s deathloop 2, something that has Colt moving through time.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

True. Good point.

A few days ago, I found this comparison of user engagement in Deathloop on PlayStation vs. Xbox.

If user engagement turns out to be this low for Xbox-exclusive games, it could affect funding for their future games. After all, there will be some metric to measure performance of new games internally.

This is a poor metric. Deathloop is part of Game Pass at no additional cost, which means people who aren't all that interested in the game will give it a try to see if they like it. The numbers for Game Pass games will always be skewed because of that, which I suspect you already know. Me personally, I download games all the time I don't feel interested in just to see if I like them. Sometimes I don't and uninstall, other times I enjoy the hell out of the games and play them to completion.

 

[Heisenberg007]

This is a poor metric. Deathloop is part of Game Pass at no additional cost, which means people who aren't all that interested in the game will give it a try to see if they like it. The numbers for Game Pass games will always be skewed because of that, which I suspect you already know. Me personally, I download games all the time I don't feel interested in just to see if I like them. Sometimes I don't and uninstall, other times I enjoy the hell out of the games and play them to completion.

But that leads to an interesting question, i.e., if single player games launch on a subscription service, what would be their metric of success?

- Retail sales?
- Avg. time spent in the game?
- Active # of players?

There could be counter-arguments for each metric, which could prevent measuring a game's actual performance.

- Retail sales? No, it's on a subscription service, so why would anyone buy it.
- Avg. time? No, because people would be jumping to different games in the catalog.
- Active # of players? No, because single-player games don't necessarily thrive from MAU.
- Total player count? No, because people could try it via Cloud for 5 minutes and get registered as one of the players, artificially inflating the total player count.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

But that leads to an interesting question, i.e., if single player games launch on a subscription service, what would be their metric of success?

- Retail sales?
- Avg. time spent in the game?
- Active # of players?

There could be counter-arguments for each metric, which could prevent measuring a game's actual performance.

- Retail sales? No, it's on a subscription service, so why would anyone buy it.
- Avg. time? No, because people would be jumping to different games in the catalog.
- Active # of players? No, because single-player games don't necessarily thrive from MAU.
- Total player count? No, because people could try it via Cloud for 5 minutes and get registered as one of the players, artificially inflating the total player count.

I’m sure MS can track all the metrics to see what games thrive and which games don’t, but I think ultimately what matters is growth. Is the new content driving subs upward?

 

[Heisenberg007]

I’m sure MS can track all the metrics to see what games thrive and which games don’t, but I think ultimately what matters is growth. Is the new content driving subs upward?

But it's impossible to track how much a single game drove new subs, (in this case, an Arkane single-player game, like Deathloop). Because of this, it's impossible to track if a particular single-player game was even successful or not.

I think it would come down to user engagement metrics like the ones I shared: average time spent in game, completion percentage, etc.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

But it's impossible to track how much a single game drove new subs, (in this case, an Arkane single-player game, like Deathloop). Because of this, it's impossible to track if a particular single-player game was even successful or not.

I think it would come down to user engagement metrics like the ones I shared: average time spent in game, completion percentage, etc.

13.7k players on Xbox beat the game versus 15.9k on PS, and there are more PS5 owners out there and the game has been out an entire year longer on that platform.

Sounds like Game Pass drives engagement to me.

But also, you’re using numbers from a 3rd party site. I’m saying that MS is likely tracking numerous metrics internally they aren’t sharing. They know what people are playing, they know how long people are playing.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Their games aren't very good.

They've had so many at bats and a games media that gushes over them but they simply don't hit with the public.

There's something fundamentally wrong with their design. What that is, I'm not sure. I couldn't be bothered to play more than a couple of hours of both Dishonored games.

Yes this. They aren't great, I've given most of them a try and all of them have been disappointing.

 

[plip.plop]

I personally think their games should move to the third-person format. Their storytelling is too good for an FPS game.
It has been pretty well established that for adventure games people want to see their character especially if you can upgrade their armor.
How many people have bummed out that cyberpunk was first person? I can honestly say I was especially when they showed the upgrade possibilities with your character that you would never see.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

I personally think their games should move to the third-person format. Their storytelling is too good for an FPS game.
It has been pretty well established that for adventure games people want to see their character especially if you can upgrade their armor.
How many people have bummed out that cyberpunk was first person? I can honestly say I was especially when they showed the upgrade possibilities with your character that you would never see.

I’m the opposite. Making games 3rd person brings too many tropes. Next thing you know Cyberpunk has climbing sections and you’re squeezing through cracks, swinging from rope to rope, etc.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I’m the opposite. Making games 3rd person brings too many tropes. Next thing you know Cyberpunk has climbing sections and you’re squeezing through cracks, swinging from rope to rope, etc.

Nah

 

[adamsapple]

I think there are just better versions of their games out there. Deus Ex & Bioshock off the top of my head.

I would argue Prey is the better version, or at least the modern version we never got, of games like Bioshock.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I would argue Prey is the better version, or at least the modern version we never got, of games like Bioshock.

I wouldn't consider Bioshock an immersive sim.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The head of Respawn admitted the release date was a mistake due to it being a "crowded" release window. source



It's fine if you think the things you are saying are true, but they aren't and I suspect you know it but will double down because being wrong on the Internet is poison to some people.

The question isn't whether it was a mistake or not. Obviously competition spreads the dollars around which weakens a games market potential.

The question is how much of an effect there was. They very clearly don't believe in the IP otherwise they would have made T3 and released it in a better window.

People are desperate to grab on to anything other than a games quality to excuse its weak performance.

 

[geary]

I’m the opposite. Making games 3rd person brings too many tropes. Next thing you know Cyberpunk has climbing sections and you’re squeezing through cracks, swinging from rope to rope, etc.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

It's due to the lack of attention span of most gamers. I don't usually play just one game to completion but instead switch between multiple games depending on my mood. That's a problem for Arcane titles since a big part of the enjoyment is exploiting the small details you discover, most of which are completely optional.

They're among my favorite games of all time and when I look back, I had the time and dedication to play them contiguously. It just seems harder to do that these days with so much competing for your attention. Same with plot-intensive/subtitled movies.

100% I think you're right. I've played through the Disonoreds three times now, and I've appreciated them more each subsequent time after kind of bouncing off them initially. Kept going back because people whose opinions I respect talked them up.

Maybe ARKANE games lack a strong initial gameplay "hook", as it takes hours to appreciate what's special about them.

That "High on Life" game that blew up? You know exactly what you're getting within the first few minutes (not necessarily a bad thing)

 

[Belthazar]

That problem is solved now because of GP.

Is it tho? The game was "free" on both PS+ and Gamepass and it was like it didn't even happen.

 

[Jim Ryan other Clone]

you heard it here first, Justin Bieber makes some of the best music according to Men_in_Boxes

also he thinks that the Transformers franchise is among the best cinema out there.
and that the Resident Evil movies are the best game adaptations ever

Transformers is among the best ENTERTAINING cinema out there, that's why they made billions because people enjoyed the mindless action. Not everything must be artful and elegant. Or your opinion is better that hundred of thousands people that bought tickets and enjoyed the movies?

 

[remember_spinal]

I’m the opposite. Making games 3rd person brings too many tropes. Next thing you know Cyberpunk has climbing sections and you’re squeezing through cracks, swinging from rope to rope, etc.

Like Ghost of Tsushima and Horizon

 

[Warablo]

It probably didn't help that Deathloop looks like a unfinished Dishonored game.

Prey was their best work.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

The question isn't whether it was a mistake or not. Obviously competition spreads the dollars around which weakens a games market potential.

The question is how much of an effect there was. They very clearly don't believe in the IP otherwise they would have made T3 and released it in a better window.

People are desperate to grab on to anything other than a games quality to excuse its weak performance.

They moved on to Apex Legends and Jedi Fallen Order, are working on Jedi Survivor. Apex Legends was born of Titanfall, btw. Has been a major success any way you slice it.

Anyway, have a good one.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

Like Ghost of Tsushima and Horizon

Haven't played them yet, can't say. In the process of playing Jedi Fallen Order for the first time.

 

[Wildebeest]

Arkane went out of their way to make Deathloop look like a game with a multiplayer focus and gameplay which isn't too confusing or slow for regular people. It didn't seem like found a happy medium. Their loyal fans are not happy with that direction and for the mass market you really have to go all out with a dev budget comparable to the big games or the mass market are going to think it is a lazy effort. This is the AA trap that Remedy somehow manage to dodge with games like Control. Arkane also have a game engine problem. The in-house void engine the French guys use has technical problems, especially on PC, and Prey used the ageing crytech engine. Redfall is using Unreal Engine 5, but it still has that AA problem where it has one hopeful foot in AAA market, with a big traditional marketing push, when more reliably with a game like that they hope to get good word of mouth from enthusiasts building momentum.

 

[adamsapple]

True. Good point.

A few days ago, I found this comparison of user engagement in Deathloop on PlayStation vs. Xbox.

If user engagement turns out to be this low for Xbox-exclusive games, it could affect funding for their future games. After all, there will be some metric to measure performance of new games internally.

Using your metrics:

~ 16k players finished the game on PS5 in ~12-15 months
~ 14k players finished the game on Xbox in ~2- 3 months.

This is fantastic engagement on the Xbox userbase part.

Game Pass really does drive engagement.

Ghostwire Tokyo already felt like it came and went with a whimper. It will benefit greatly from more engagement next year with its re-release.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Deathloop just wasn’t that good. It was way overrated among media outlets.

Arkane’s games do well otherwise.

 

[nial]

you heard it here first, Justin Bieber makes some of the best music according to Men_in_Boxes Men_in_Boxes

The fact that so many books still name the Beatles as "the greatest or most significant or most influential" rock band ever only tells you how far rock music still is from becoming a serious art. Jazz critics have long recognized that the greatest jazz musicians of all time are Duke Ellington and John Coltrane, who were not the most famous or richest or best sellers of their times, let alone of all time. Classical critics rank the highly controversial Beethoven over classical musicians who were highly popular in courts around Europe. Rock critics, instead, are still blinded by commercial success. The Beatles sold more than anyone else (not true, by the way), therefore they must have been the greatest.

Hard truth.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

But that leads to an interesting question, i.e., if single player games launch on a subscription service, what would be their metric of success?

- Retail sales?
- Avg. time spent in the game?
- Active # of players?

There could be counter-arguments for each metric, which could prevent measuring a game's actual performance.

- Retail sales? No, it's on a subscription service, so why would anyone buy it.
- Avg. time? No, because people would be jumping to different games in the catalog.
- Active # of players? No, because single-player games don't necessarily thrive from MAU.
- Total player count? No, because people could try it via Cloud for 5 minutes and get registered as one of the players, artificially inflating the total player count.

I dont thnk the typical person cares what the success metrics are except people purposely looking for some kid of win.

Were you one of the people a year ago who got excited that YT view count and Twitter shares mean best sales since the average PS game gets more social media attention than Xbox? There were threads about that. And then when someone brought up Nintendo videos get much fewer views, but sell 30-40 million copies that entire thread came to a halt.