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Why does BOTW get so much credit for basic open world elements?

Soodanim

Gold Member
I thought the climbing was great outside of sudden rain at the wrong time, once you learn to really find rest spots and the areas where you can regain stamina by running despite it's steepness every mountain becomes a fun little challenge and your speed increases by alot.

I definitely agree it sucks when you are mid-way through a super steep climb and rain hits you but for me that was extremely rare. A lot of the time you can still climb despite the rain and you can almost always create a fire and skip the rain so it raining beforehand isn't really a problem.
I guess I'm in the minority then, I didn't get that joy at all. It felt less like a challenge and more like a slow chore. Climbing gear wasn't enough to make that entertaining.

For me I think if you need to skip it, it's making the problem go away by avoiding it entirely and that seems flawed. If they threw in some gear to stop the slipping and allowed you to get some sort of rest it would have been a good way to allow the player to skip some of the tedium if they felt that way. I'll eventually play the game again in an emulator, and I'll go straight for Revali's Gale (the one you usually get last, to my dismay first time round) so that I can skip it. I find the entire process of climbing to be nothing but boredom. I will get on a horse and go round if at all possible, even if it means taking longer than climbing would have. At least I feel like I'm doing something that way. You might think I'm being facetious, but I think the MGS3 ladder was more fun than climbing in BOTW.
I really don't think they need any permanent weapons. As I said, you can always beat enemies with the weapons they're holding so you never need to sacrifice anything. And the items enemies drop are as valuable as weapons you would need to kill them, the money you can sell it for keeps being useful until you are pretty much done with the game.

So the only thing you ever really need to sacrifice is time. "Fighting normal mobs means you have to sacrifice what you have" is just objectively not true in my experience. I'm putting it to the test right now. Every fight ends in gain at zero cost so I can't see it as something that really needs "fixing".
The amount of times I've been at max weapons and couldn't find a weapon I was happy to have break mid battle has been enough to be my strongest take away from the system. I ended up specifically keeping a "Burner" weapon for situations where I was forced to waste something, as I saw it. Maybe it comes down to individual play style. Next playthrough I'm glitching myself the MS immediately to cut down on that.
Not sure if I'd say it's innovation either, but I'd definitely say it's different and mostly better than other open worlds, Usually the climbing is either very fixed to certain areas or extremely clunky and more of the player breaking the game to move up. I think BoTW is "innovative" in how the world is built around a proper climbing system you can use anywhere at any time.
Fair take.
Also, there is tons of recourse against the rain, You can almost always skip it totally with about 10 seconds to make a fire, you can run up most things that you think you need to climb and that isn't affected by rain, and you can always power through most of these situations with 2 or 3 stamina potions if you absolutely don't want to even think about it.

I'd say in most situations, climbing in the rain does even slow you down by 20%. In my eyes that far from "ruining it".
Once, while I was doing the "climb climb climb jump" method in the rain that everyone started doing early on, I realised it was nothing more than an inconvenience. It didn't add to anything to the experience, it was just a hindrance to get round. An annoyance that got in the way of what I wanted to do. If the solution is to make it go away through time skip or potion spam, then it's something that could do with some improvements. Again, even some gear would go a long way towards helping here.
Here's something we agree on though, the game DESPERATELY needs Qol improvement, Not being able to skip chest opening text is dreadful and not having an option to quick swap what you are holding with what's inside the chest is insane. The game is filled with tiny time wasters like this.

I play through the world of BoTW like I'm doing a giant DMC combo, moving from one activity to the next as fast as possible and trying to make things go perfectly cleanly, all the unskippable stuff that repeats all the time absolutely kills that feeling of flow. This is the kind of irritation that I've ranted for FAR too long about this game. I won't get started about the inconsistency of the dodge system, or the desperate need for them to limit the amount of food you can eat.
QoL improvements/annoyances will forever be something I notice. I think I saw someone break down how long it takes to enter and exit each shrine. It adds up to a lot, and it's a lot of brain dead button mashing.

I'm glad it's not just me with the dodge system. That's another thing that put me off the combat, although I'd forgotten about that. I will roll for days in Dark Souls, but I could never really get BOTW down. I don't know if it was the framerate on Wii U or more than that. I've seen some videos on how it works and it seems strange - and leads to some odd situations where you can end up doing parry teleports.
 

Lethal01

Member
For me I think if you need to skip it, it's making the problem go away by avoiding it entirely and that seems flawed.
My opinion is that the system is good, but ontop of that if for any reason you hate it there is always a way to totally skip it. I think there are some very rare scenario that create issues and skipping is an "incase of emergency break glass" situation but the fact that it's there means that even if you hate it you can just skip it.

allowed you to get some sort of rest it would have been a good way to allow the player to skip some of the tedium if they felt that way.
Most places you have to climb have small rest spots that a lot of people miss. Using them you can recover. Often using these spots makes it so that you are less climbing and more running and jumping up the mountain. You can totally avoid slipping down by letting go and switching to walking right as you are about to slip. As you said, you are probably in the minority who hate climbing, so I don't think they need to "fix" the system to make you like it when there are already things in the game that let you totally subvert it.

Actually, I found a video about it.


He mentions using a glitch and takes it to an extreme, but you don't need that at all to do this, you can recover stamina by walking up instead of running. Besides you can probably go even faster with skill and climbing properly at times without using that glitch so don't think you need to break the game to do this kind of thing. I think I remember the devs doing it before the game was even out to go through the great plateau during E3.

The amount of times I've been at max weapons and couldn't find a weapon I was happy to have break mid battle has been enough to be my strongest take away from the system. I ended up specifically keeping a "Burner" weapon for situations where I was forced to waste something, as I saw it. Maybe it comes down to individual play style. Next playthrough I'm glitching myself the MS immediately to cut down on that.

Weapons don't despawn or randomly float away. so you can literally just put a weapon on the ground fight enemies and grab it later and doing so would not add more than 5 seconds to a fight. I'd say this is again something wanted as a quick QOL. Let the player quickswap what they are using with weapons lying around via a single button press. I think anything to give the player what is effectively a "temp slot" with which they can quickly grab enemy weapons and use them instead of their own would be the best solution. Preserves everything I like about the system but makes it clear that you never need to sacrifice a weapon

But while I do think that should be done I don't think it's a giant issue that makes fighting enemies not worth it. Just giving a simple solution to absolutely not wanting to use any weapons of your own.

in my experience playing through the game you are constantly finding weapons that do 40+ damage by the time you have those kinds of weapons hoarded. And will run into weapons near max damage every handful on encounters. Basically, I'd run into the "best weapons" so often that outside of keep around a handful of elemental stuff I can just mindlesslessly wack enemies with the best weapons and still run into something just as good before it breaks.

Perhaps the difference in our experiences is due to you starting to avoid fights early causing enemies to drop weaker gear down the line, I dunno. I could be wrong maybe it's my experience that's strange.

Fair take.

Once, while I was doing the "climb climb climb jump" method in the rain that everyone started doing early on, I realised it was nothing more than an inconvenience. It didn't add to anything to the experience, it was just a hindrance to get round. An annoyance that got in the way of what I wanted to do. If the solution is to make it go away through time skip or potion spam, then it's something that could do with some improvements. Again, even some gear would go a long way towards helping here.
Yeah like I said, you can bypass this via skill 90% of the time, and I think doing so is a fun challenge. But for those who don't want to, there is usually another route or a way to flat out skip it. I just see it as there being many options for different people.

I'm glad it's not just me with the dodge system. That's another thing that put me off the combat, although I'd forgotten about that. I will roll for days in Dark Souls, but I could never really get BOTW down. I don't know if it was the framerate on Wii U or more than that. I've seen some videos on how it works and it seems strange - and leads to some odd situations where you can end up doing parry teleports.

The rush attack is definitely very strange, Usually it's exremely lenient and you get it for simply dodging near an enemy when they attack, Like a bayonetta situation. But if you miss it you are then doing an "actual dodge" with zero invincibility frames and ontop of that even when you do land it there is a lag when it's over leaving you open making it hard to dodge follow up attacks, sometimes even impossible.

Anyway, I could literally double the length of this post just by continuing to talk about the issues with that one mechanic, So don't take me going against some of your complaints as me thinking the game is perfect. I just value the things I think it did right enough that I'd still rate it higher than games with less to complain about but also less to love.
 
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daveonezero

Member
Easy take away when raining in game.

don’t climb.

I regetting stuck coming out of the canyon one time.

I was lucky enough to make it to a ledge and I waited. It was fine.

Id rather have actual weather affect gameplay than just visual effects.
That is one thing BOTW does that seems basic but is not in many of any other games
 
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Aldric

Member
Yeah, I just don't understand the fervent defense of the game. I can't name another game with such a force that defends EVERY valid criticism. I have absolutely no problem with people complaining about some of my favorite games. Its like, these people NEED it to be the "ZOMG BEST GAME EVER" objectively, which it isn't. Its an excellent game worthy of discussion in the pantheon of great games, but its far from perfect.
There we go again. The problem has never been about "valid criticism" of the game not being accepted or whatever victim complex you have here, this thread isn't about BotW's flaws, it's about denying what the game brought to the open world formula and expressing disbelief at its positive reception, with blatant console war tier posts like "it's because Nintendo fans play no games outside of Nintendo systems" or "if it was called Gelda no one would care" etc.

Of course the game has flaws. All games have flaws it's a completely trite thing to say. Off the top of my head the enemy variety is subpar for a map of this size. Similarly the movesets of the different weapon classes aren't distinct enough with only the boomerang bringing new possibilities when used in conjunction with the chemistry engine. Some parts of the map (not the entire one) lack engaging content, Gerudo Heights immediately coming to mind with only one interesting environmental puzzle (the Eighth Heroine) to find which doesn't justify the enormous size of the area or the prevalence of giant layered cliffs and how hard it is to navigate. The rewards for exploration could have been much better (Matthewmatosis has good ideas about that aspect, I recommend his fantastic critique of the game), the Divine Beasts are obvious downgrades both thematically and mechanically compared to classical dungeons and some of the core mechanics are borderline broken (Flurry Rush's activation window is ridiculous). That's off the top of my head of course there's more.

No one not even the game's biggest fans deny the game has flaws. What you have though is a bunch of people who for some reason got butthurt beyond repair at the game's reception and have spent the last few years arguing in bad faith about the game and acting as if all of its well documented strengths didn't exist or didn't matter. That's what's frustrating. No one cares if you don't like the game, too bad for you, there's a ton of very popular, influential games I don't like but I don't spend hours in threads dedicated to them trying to convince the peanut gallery they don't deserve their reception and everyone who likes them is a mindless fanboy. That's just mental illness.
 
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Raven117

Member
There we go again. The problem has never been about "valid criticism" of the game not being accepted or whatever victim complex you have here, this thread isn't about BotW's flaws, it's about denying what the game brought to the open world formula and expressing disbelief at its positive reception, with blatant console war tier posts like "it's because Nintendo fans play no games outside of Nintendo systems" or "if it was called Gelda no one would care" etc.

Of course the game has flaws. All games have flaws it's a completely trite thing to say. Off the top of my head the enemy variety is subpar for a map of this size. Similarly the movesets of the different weapon classes aren't distinct enough. Some parts of the map (not the entire one) lack engaging content, Gerudo Heights immediately coming to mind with only one interesting environmental puzzle (the Eighth Heroine) to find which doesn't justify the enormous size of the area or the prevalence of giant layered cliffs and how hard it is to navigate. The rewards for exploration could have been much better (Matthewmatosis has good ideas about that aspect, I recommend his fantastic critique of the game), the Divine Beasts are obvious downgrades both thematically and mechanically compared to classical dungeons and some of the core mechanics are borderline broken (Flurry Rush's activation window is ridiculous). That's off the top of my head of course there's more.

No one not even the game's biggest fans deny the game has flaws. What you have though is a bunch of people who for some reason got butthurt beyond repair at the game's reception and have spent the last few years arguing in bad faith about the game and acting as if all of its well documented strengths didn't exist or didn't matter. That's what's frustrating. No one cares if you don't like the game, too bad for you, there's a ton of very popular, influential games I don't like but I don't spend hours in threads dedicated to them trying to convince the peanut gallery they don't deserve their reception and everyone who likes them is a mindless fanboy. That's just mental illness.
just look at this thread. No other game I can remember has this. Plenty of games have lots of discussion and critique. We do it all the time on this site. What makes this one different? Oh, it’s the posters like you who post this masturbatory drivel.

Jesus Christ. Look at your post, just read it, you have the self awareness of a tic-tac. You proved my point.
 
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Lethal01

Member
just look at this thread. No other game I can remember has this. Plenty of games have lots of discussion and critique. We do it all the time on this site. What makes this one different? Oh, it’s the posters like you who post this masturbatory drivel.

Jesus Christ. Look at your post, just read it, you have the self awareness of a tic-tac. You proved my point.

You keep trying to claim that this is nothing but people acting like there is nothing wrong wrong with the game and defending it at all costs. It's not, some people just disagree with the criticisms being made by you and others. Where is the issue here? is it wrong to disagree and explain why?

There's is as much discussion and defense for any other popular game and there are just as many people being rude whether they love the game or hate it.
People defend Horizon, FF7 Remake and Demon souls just as much when they are criticized.

But you are right, no other game has this issue of people claiming it does nothing specific that may be copied by others not even dark souls.
 

Raven117

Member
You keep trying to claim that this is nothing but people acting like there is nothing wrong wrong with the game and defending it at all costs. It's not, some people just disagree with the criticisms being made by you and others. Where is the issue here? is it wrong to disagree and explain why?

There's is as much discussion and defense for any other popular game and there are just as many people being rude whether they love the game or hate it.
People defend Horizon, FF7 Remake and Demon souls just as much when they are criticized.

But you are right, no other game has this issue of people claiming it does nothing specific that may be copied by others not even dark souls.
No there isn’t. There is a zealotry to BotW that is unique.

The critiques are as valid as someone saying the game is “the best.” Or whatever. It’s the BotW defense force that turns any critique into “obviously you didn’t get the game or discredits the opinion as somehow not having taste.”

Im truly glad some folks love it so much. I liked it. Didn’t love it. I have good reasons for not liking it. As some people have good reasons for liking it.

All are valid. Don’t know what else to say.
 

Lethal01

Member
No there isn’t. There is a zealotry to BotW that is unique.

The critiques are as valid as someone saying the game is “the best.” Or whatever. It’s the BotW defense force that turns any critique into “obviously you didn’t get the game or discredits the opinion as somehow not having taste.”

Im truly glad some folks love it so much. I liked it. Didn’t love it. I have good reasons for not liking it. As some people have good reasons for liking it.

All are valid. Don’t know what else to say.

Nah, there are just as many if not more people jumping in to tell people they are wrong for liking the game and their reasons for praiit aren't good, infact you get constant thread made to do just that. I see the opposite of the problem you mention, people are desperate to prove BoTW is overated.

All critique and praise is certainly not valid. If I praised BoTW for it's excellent team based combat I'd be wrong. Sometimes people say things that are objectively untrue, We aren't just talking about subjective criticism about whether someone liked a mechanic or not.
 

Raven117

Member
Nah, there are just as many if not more people jumping in to tell people they are wrong for liking the game and their reasons for praiit aren't good, infact you get constant thread made to do just that. I see the opposite of the problem you mention, people are desperate to prove BoTW is overated.

All critique and praise is certainly not valid. If I praised BoTW for it's excellent team based combat I'd be wrong. Sometimes people say things that are objectively untrue, We aren't just talking about subjective criticism about whether someone liked a mechanic or not.
You just aren’t seeing it.

i don’t know what “overrated” even means. I don’t give a flying fuck what a game is rated. It matters whether I like it (or you, or anyone else). It’s when people say it’s objectively the best game ever made is beyond silly and stupid. Worthy of discussion? Of course. It’s the arrogance of botw that somehow any legit criticism is somehow wrong (like weapon breaking…. I get the system… I get why. Sucks to play for me…. And many others.)

I don’t care whether people love a game or not. Glad they do.

ive exhausted what I want to say about this.
 

Shubh_C63

Member
Having open world elements and having open world elements with a nice ribbon bow on it are two different things.

Ubi does open world features well but never really feels like they all are talking to each other, or like a well thought out package.

Zelda did felt like all its mechanics are there for a reason, it creates better immersion than other open world's. Atleast for me.
 

Marvel14

Member
There we go again. The problem has never been about "valid criticism" of the game not being accepted or whatever victim complex you have here, this thread isn't about BotW's flaws, it's about denying what the game brought to the open world formula and expressing disbelief at its positive reception, with blatant console war tier posts like "it's because Nintendo fans play no games outside of Nintendo systems" or "if it was called Gelda no one would care" etc.

Of course the game has flaws. All games have flaws it's a completely trite thing to say. Off the top of my head the enemy variety is subpar for a map of this size. Similarly the movesets of the different weapon classes aren't distinct enough with only the boomerang bringing new possibilities when used in conjunction with the chemistry engine. Some parts of the map (not the entire one) lack engaging content, Gerudo Heights immediately coming to mind with only one interesting environmental puzzle (the Eighth Heroine) to find which doesn't justify the enormous size of the area or the prevalence of giant layered cliffs and how hard it is to navigate. The rewards for exploration could have been much better (Matthewmatosis has good ideas about that aspect, I recommend his fantastic critique of the game), the Divine Beasts are obvious downgrades both thematically and mechanically compared to classical dungeons and some of the core mechanics are borderline broken (Flurry Rush's activation window is ridiculous). That's off the top of my head of course there's more.

No one not even the game's biggest fans deny the game has flaws. What you have though is a bunch of people who for some reason got butthurt beyond repair at the game's reception and have spent the last few years arguing in bad faith about the game and acting as if all of its well documented strengths didn't exist or didn't matter. That's what's frustrating. No one cares if you don't like the game, too bad for you, there's a ton of very popular, influential games I don't like but I don't spend hours in threads dedicated to them trying to convince the peanut gallery they don't deserve their reception and everyone who likes them is a mindless fanboy. That's just mental illness.
Preach GIF
 

Marvel14

Member
Haha, I'm glad you got it. I wished the game was flat at times. The climbing really was shit.

That's the thing. The game does plenty of things well enough, but when a game invites this much discussion some of it is inevitably going to be about the things that they didn't get right and how it could have been better. It doesn't automatically mean hatred towards the game.

Then they're wrong. It's not up for debate.

I found in my time playing that there comes a time where you've got some good weapons saved up for the right occasions, because you know, building in power to fight bosses/Ganon and all that. But then you've got normal mobs, and unless you need the item in the chest they might have, you're going to get absolutely nothing from it. Unless you have the Master Sword, combat opportunities that aren't high level enemies in your face mean giving up what you have or skipping it entirely. It's one of the main areas I think they need to improve on in the sequel.

A simple way they could have done that would have been with the reward weapons. They could have been a break from the brittle bone disease all the other weapons have, but instead they were run of the mill weapons that cost too much to repair. I'll take a lower power Kokiri Sword if it means infinite durability, at least it's a back up.

That was mostly because newness and innovation are secondary to quality, and the highest quality thing in the game is the physics engine. And I explained what I saw to be wrong with your post, it wasn't out of the blue. I don't take offence to internet disagreements, so it's all good.

In honour of your god-awful pun, let's start again. I'm using your list as a starting point. It wasn't intended as an innovation list so I need to pick and choose.

Shrines - VR missions for the physics engine spread out so thinly that most people never get anywhere close to doing them all. Some good design to be found, but the innovation mostly belongs to the physics engine. Would have been better if they made 10x fewer but longer. If they fleshed these out with a bit of story/purpose/variety/theming you might even go so far as to call them dungeons.
Using towers to uncover the map - Took the Ubi towers and made them better by letting you do it yourself. Increases interaction and individual adventure. Innovative use of a largely passive existing idea.
Monster battles - Combat was an evolution on previous games, but I think they took durability way too far. They tried to be innovative by forcing a certain play style, but I see it as a regression that holds it back. There's a lot of fun to be had with Ancient Guardians, though. That's the pinnacle of the combat in this game.
Cooking - It's not a bad implementation, but I wouldn't go so far as to say there's innovation here.
Climbing - I don't know if I can say there's innovation here, they just tailored something existing to an open world, whacked a stamina drain on it and ruined it with rain and offered too little recourse

It's been a while since I played, so I may need my memory jogged for more, feel free to throw ideas for me to comment on. I wish they'd innovated themselves a way to auto-skip the fucking text after every shrine or the cooking animations. It's like they hadn't learned from Skyward Sword.

So here's where we are talking at cross purposes. I focused on the range of activities in the context of a highly developed exploration mechanic that is brand new. I simply name checked Towers and didn't say they were excellent all by themselves. Rather it's the exploration and physics mechanics that elevate these activities. Not the activities by themselves.
 
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I won't believe people actually think Nintendo Switch owners don't play anything else but Nintendo games lmao, are you people really conviced that Nintendo fans don't play anything else from other platforms? Or that they don't PRIMARILY play third parties on other platforms? Isn't it possible for you all that maybe... MAYBE... Lots of Nintendo fans play lots of games on different platforms but it just happens that they think Nintendo games are better or that they like them more than the rest? Isn't that a remote possibility? just curious
It’s not hard to hold that belief when you hear people saying outright ignorant or false things about other platforms and their libraries. Sure, it’s logical to think that some may prefer Nintendo games over others, but it isn’t too much to ask people be educated about games🤷🏿‍♂️
 

Why does BOTW get so much credit for basic open world elements?​


The questing isn't why does it get credit for basic open world elements, but why is it so many other games that claim to be open world don't have any basic open world elements.
 

brian0057

Gold Member

Why does BOTW get so much credit for basic open world elements?​


The questing isn't why does it get credit for basic open world elements, but why is it so many other games that claim to be open world don't have any basic open world elements.
Right on the money.
The praise Breath of the Wild gets speaks less about the game itself (which is amazing, in my opinion) and more about how stale and unoriginal the open world genre has become.
 
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