Support NeoGAF

[Drizzlehell]

The only valid reason that I can think of is that it kinda became a modern gravy train. Publishers ran that shit into the ground by tring to jump on the bandwagon with progressively shittier games that prioritized monetizing the experience with little effort put into actual gameplay or content. In that regard, yeah, fuck those games.

But whenever I see people talk about them, it's like an universal hatred for every game in that "genre", even though there are some that are actually good and provide highly addictive gameplay with regular content updates and active communities. I actually don't mind those types of games if done right. I can grind for hours if it's fun to play and it doesn't try to vacuum cash out of my ass wallet, nahmean?

Warframe is probably the most frequently mentioned example of how to do a game like this correctly but there are plenty of others that I've sunk a ridiculous amount of hours into over the years so it's not all bad.

 

[kicker]

But whenever I see people talk about them

It's probably due to the group of people you're talking to/reading opinions on (and their preferences for games)

 

[64bitmodels]

They've taken over the industry and caniballized all other forms of multiplayer game. many of the tactics used to monetize them are predatory and ripped straight out of mobile games, and unlike many multiplayer games they have an expiration date since you can't host your own servers. to top it off many studios known for making great singleplayer games have shifted to live service thanks to the success of games like fortnite and apex.

 

[Spyxos]

In the beginning, they were entertaining and new. In the meantime, I can no longer stand them. And I have absolutely no desire for the grind.

 

[Woggleman]

Because most of them are designed not to be quality games but to make the player spend money.

 

[Banjo64]

Apex and Rocket League (despite RL not beginning its life as a live service game) are two top tier video games.

Fortnite, Warzone and Overwatch would have been my literal wet dream as a kid/teenager.

High quality games, literally for free?

When I was 14 I was paying out of my own pocket money £40 a year for Gold and £40 just to play Gears of War online. Doesn’t sound much, but £80 was a Herculean effort. Then Halo 3, MW 1&2, Gears 2&3 and then Reach. All full retail, with £40 a year Gold to pay for.

I used to go hungry all day at school and save my £2 dinner money every day.

Nowadays kids can get a Switch or Series S for their birthday or Christmas and immediately access top tier games, which don’t even need online subscriptions.

Anyone moaning about it is just old, grumpy and out of touch.

 

[Supple]

They’re usually awful and predatory.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

It's just endless grinding, over and over and over -- and once you get max gear there is more DLC or a new season and it makes the gear you spent 20 hours on irrelevant. I only had to play one season of Destiny 2 and The Division to realize this type of game was dog shit. No matter how much time you put into it, its never enough and that's the point.

 

[funkygunther]

The novelty of it being a new game and its gameplay wears off eventually and eventually all you're left with are incremental releases and seasons that add very little.

 

[GHG]

They are designed around the principle of "player retention" and in the worst cases they are designed around microtransactions/lootboxes, all at the expense of fun.

These games are human hamster wheels, the people that spend a ton of time with them don't necessarily do so because they actually enjoy them, human psychology is a complex beast.

 

[Danjin44]

because most of them heavily rely on MP or co-op which I personally dont give a fuck about and most of them have shitty ass loot system which I despise.

I just want proper complete game without ANY live service, GaaS, F2P or any other crap. I dont mind DLC if its similar to Torna from Xenoblade 2 or Old Hunters in Bloodborne, I will gladly welcome those type of DLCs.

 

[Puscifer]

Because everything is taking elements from them. The moment certain RPG elements were successfully implemented in genres they didn't it was all downhill from there. I remember years ago when it took 4 hours to unlock the move arsenal in Mirrors Edge Catalyst that were literally available to you the moment you touched a controller in the original.

 

[Bragr]

For me, it's because it's dominated by various forms of cosmetics.

If the game didn't have it in the first place, I wouldn't care about it, but the game is creating artificial value from stuff they can reproduce over and over. When I think back on what I bought from older games, it's almost always pointless.

And in turn, it creates a normalized practice, that it's common for people to buy skins and characters from game to game to game like an OCD completionist thing.

Also, some of these things are so easy to make you wouldn't believe it. Some of the stuff they charge for is practically 5 minutes of work.

 

[AlteredForms]

Because most of them are designed not to be quality games but to make the player spend money.

Pretty much, and they take up way too much time. I know the last point isn't really valid as we can simply walk away, but that's easier to do than said and you won't get any closure on the matter.

 

[kicker]

to top it off many studios known for making great singleplayer games have shifted to live service thanks to the success of games like fortnite and apex.

This too, people wouldn't care if the games they liked were still being made the same way and with all the focus they used to have.

There would probably be less moaning about fortnite if it wasn't strongly pushing devs like arkane and rocksteady to make games in a style their core audiences don't really want.

People got too used to devs trying to take their money only at purchase to be okay with the immersion-breaking focus on monetization modern live service games have

 

[radewagon]

Anyone moaning about it is just old, grumpy and out of touch.

Truth. I was going to explain why I dislike them.... but you pretty much nailed my whole existence down. I, mean, yeah, I think they suck, but also I'm old, fairly grumpy and, thusly, most likely out of touch.

 

[GoldenRetreating]

Maybe the "looter" mindset can't commit with the live service model, you have Warframe and PSO2 which seem to do it fine, but in a large market It's not easy to make the next big thing like those two

 

[funking giblet]

They respect a players money more than their time.

 

[kyussman]

Remember those video games where you used to buy them play them and unlock various items throughout to enhance your experience......well now you have to buy all those individual items with real money........Oh.

 

[lh032]

Almost every live service games are predatory.

The purpose of live service games is keep making money in the long run.
Because of this, gameplay design around "profit" instead of "fun" for the consumers.

 

[Woggleman]

This approach to games has destroyed a studio like Rockstar who during the PS2 and PS3 era could do no wrong in my eyes. I am started to get scared that ND will be heading in the same direction.

People complain about long SP story driven games but at least most of those games are complete and total experiences upon release and give you bang for your buck.

Live service games require you to keep giving more bucks for more bang until you spent way more than you would for a one time purchase of a SP game.

 

[Braag]

Incredibly repetitive gameplay loop designed to make you grind for gear and incentivize you to spend money. Also online elements like grouping up which I don't care about. They can also feel like a second job with the amount of attention they require from you to do dailys and weeklys and whatnot to keep up with other players.
In the end they're just designed to be an endless loop of never ending content for you to grind forever in hopes that you might spend some money eventually on some sort of mtx.
I guess some people just see the strings too clearly to be able to enjoy that while to others the never ending grind is what they love.

 

[Danjin44]

Live Service or Loot system is not there to benefit actual game and player's experience, its there so devs can make extra money.

 

[rofif]

Waste of time
Grind or pay instead of real progress

 

[STARSBarry]

Warframe is probably the most frequently mentioned example of how to do a game like this correctly but there are plenty of others that I've sunk a ridiculous amount of hours into over the years so it's not all bad.

I think you have posted the best possible example, the issue is it takes a bit of context to know why.

See back in the day Digital Extremes had this fantastic idea for a game, it was a Sci-Fi third person action game with a blend of shooting and melle action. Here's a trailer that was leaked years later of what that would have looked like.



Seem familiar?

Well here's what was actually released if you didn't know.



A completely different game, want to know why? Because the publisher said all their very clever and very important people who run the numbers said that what players ACTUALLY want is Resident Evil 4, and they better make RE4 or else they are getting nothing.

Warframe isent a good live service game because of some weird ethereal space wizardry, it's a good game because it's the project Digial Extremes wanted to make, that they had vision for internally for decades and its a true passion project.

Games as Service sucks because 95% of the time the teams behind them don't want to make that game, they are being forced to because some money men holding the pay cheques tell them to make that type of game or else.

Halo infinite is a perfect example of how this negatively effects a product. Not everything needs to be Games as a Service, hell by the definition of them players can only really play a few at a time, we are far beyond critical mass at this point and more and more are shoved out the door every few months to die within the year. We also have the design documents now to prove most of these have systems at their core that are designed to be purposefully unfun, effectively saying that if you have fun in these games that's great, but you must have something wrong with you because the designers have purposely designed the games core mechanics to annoy you into spending money. That's why these games exist all.

 

[BbMajor7th]

Because their design has devolved into dopamine treadmills, with the same 15-minute gameplay loop stuck on repeat, forever.

 

[Schmendrick]

Unfortunately most of these games are not designed to be fun anymore with Mtx and consorts just as an extra to be able to add more fun stuff to the game over time.
Instead they are now specifically designed to incentivise to spend money on Mtx instead of being good games which leads to them being Fomo treadmills most of the time.
There are a few good or even great service games, but unfortunately they are not the norm.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Live service is only good if the devs/pubs have a game first money second mentality. Most live service games are money first game second. And when they don't make enough money the game is dropped.

Plus as stated with Warframe you need to have passion for your game. Making a grind pointless with endless powercreep and the best way to do it is just spend money is no different then any gacha game on mobile.

What's appealing to me about Warframe is that they keep adding stuff to the game which increases it's value.

The looter style game isn't the issue. It's the predatory Live Service models that are.

 

[Dr. Claus]

I wonder why people hate games that are blatantly unfinished to slowly release the content it should have had at launch while giving you grindy, pointless gameplay to create sunkcost fallacy?

Man, that is just *so* hard to figure out!

 

[Drizzlehell]

Because everything is taking elements from them. The moment certain RPG elements were successfully implemented in genres they didn't it was all downhill from there. I remember years ago when it took 4 hours to unlock the move arsenal in Mirrors Edge Catalyst that were literally available to you the moment you touched a controller in the original.

This video would make more sense if he didn't start bitching about basic gameplay mechanics that simpy got ingrained in the zeitgeist because they worked well within the context of many games. It's like complaining that fist person shooters started doing reloading and that it's annoying because Doom didn't have it and it was a good game so why change things?

 

[Griffon]

Warframe is just as predatory as the others. Not an exception.

That weird narrative that it's not... it boggles my mind, have you guys even played it?

 

[DGrayson]

Because the game design is geared toward making you pay more than what you already paid for the game. And not in good ways. Normally it's worse

 

[Drizzlehell]

Warframe is just as predatory as the others. Not an exception.

That weird narrative that it's not... it boggles my mind, have you guys even played it?

 

[Griffon]

Nice meme, not true tho.

Like its counterparts it has ilvl gates, fake currencies and stamina timers out the ass.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Warframe is just as predatory as the others. Not an exception.

That weird narrative that it's not... it boggles my mind, have you guys even played it?

Not necessarily. You can grind for a lot of the stuff and trade stuff between players. Plus over time the ingame economy constantly has more of it's currency inserted meaning more opportunities to trade platinum between the community.

At a distance it looks terrible but when you look into it it's rather fair when compared to any other model out there.

My least favorite part of Warframe is the crafting time for anything that wants you to use currency to force completion.

 

[Nydius]

even though there are some that are actually good and provide highly addictive gameplay with regular content updates and active communities.

"Actually good."
Name one.

Destiny? It's an abusive FOMO grind that is essentially a subscription MMO because if you don't pay for the full year of quarterly content drops, you don't get the bulk of the content they release and you're left behind. Bungie has repeatedly done the bare minimum for years, recycling content, including weapons and maps. They've literally taken away content people paid for and their hardcore fans defend them for it.

Every other live service looter shooter aspires to be Destiny. They all copy the exact same model. Whether it was The Division, or The Avengers, or Anthem, or Suicide Squad... they're all chasing Destiny. And Destiny is abusive af.

Some of them may have started out with good ideas but every single live service looter shooter devolves into milking their fanbase for as much as possible. We saw this exact same thing play out in the MMO genre when everyone was trying to be the next World of Warcraft. They'd fail, then go F2P, and try to milk as much money out of their limited players until the faded into irrelevance or shut down entirely.

"highly addictive"

And there you have the problem. They're games but they're designed to be addiction devices. F2P: First Hit's Free. Once they get their hooks into your dopamine receptors, they begin asking more and more of you. More money. More time. More expansions. Less quality content, but it's okay because now you've become conditioned. Those "active communities" are communities of equal minded addicts. Same shit as slot machines and video poker machines. just with more buttons to press.

 

[KXVXII9X]

Warframe is just as predatory as the others. Not an exception.

That weird narrative that it's not... it boggles my mind, have you guys even played it?

It felt like a second job. Especially having to wait literal days to craft stuff. It is fun in spurts and like the mobility and combat but I don't find it fun doing the same levels over and over and over and over and over and over just to get a rare drop needed for one crafting component.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

there's live service games without loot and loot games without live service; heck nioh 2 shits out loot at the player constantly, but it's not a live service game.

I don't really mind any game, until it starts feeling like work; whether it's live service or not doesn't matter to me as long as I'm having fun.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Honestly, it's single player gamers who resent the rise and dominance of multiplayer. For some reason, the majority of people who like talking about + following the industry are SP gamers.

 

[64bitmodels]

most good live services are good in spite of their live service elements not because of them. Destiny 2 would be better off as a monthly subscription MMO. Apex would be better off as a new Titanfall. Halo infinite would have been longer lasting had it shipped with more content and been a fully priced 60 dollar game. etc etc etc. we tolerate the live service because the game is so fun, but we'd really be better off without them

 

[kicker]

Looks like someone had the same idea you did, except they wrote a whole script for it and released a few hours before this thread
I ran the transcript through a chatgpt summarizer and got this:

The video discusses why live service games are not well-liked, despite being popular and profitable. Here are the main points:

• Live service games are designed to keep players engaged for months or years through regular updates and content drops, but they exist primarily to keep players paying for that content.
• While there are some beloved live service games (like Destiny and Warframe), there are also many that fail to meet players' expectations (like Anthem and Marvel's Avengers).
• One of the biggest criticisms of live service games is that they're rarely a complete experience, and they require a significant time commitment to keep up with.
• The point of a regular game is to take players on a journey from point A to point B, ideally culminating in a satisfying conclusion, but live service games never end.
• Live service games are monetized through expansions and microtransactions, which means they require ongoing revenue streams to justify their development.
• The time commitment required by live service games can feel like a full-time job, and players may start to feel like they're paying to be "on the clock" instead of playing for fun.
• While some players may enjoy the ongoing nature of live service games, many others prefer games that offer a complete experience with a clear endpoint.

Looks like we all have the same answers

 

[diffusionx]

They're manipulative, exploitative, and bad. Keeping players on a psychological treadmill that never ends is more important than designing a fun, satisfying experience. I can't tell you how many times I've read "I've played Destiny for 2000 hours and I have no idea why" type of things. It's just bullshit.

 

[64bitmodels]

Live service is only good if the devs/pubs have a game first money second mentality.

Which is exactly why they're not good. being live service is inherently a money first endeavor and when a developer abides by your definition of a good live service, the result is a good game bogged down by live service elements
just can it and stick with a more profitable model. ya won't need to nickel and dime your consumers with MTX and season passes out the ass in that case

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The reason why Live Service are exploding in popularity is because most gamers prefer it.

 

[64bitmodels]

The reason why Live Service are exploding in popularity is because most gamers prefer it.

nope it's because they're free and multiplayer, that's pretty much it

Honestly, it's single player gamers who resent the rise and dominance of multiplayer. For some reason, the majority of people who like talking about + following the industry are SP gamers.

....because the industry is built up off the back of singleplayer games. many people came into the hobby because of singleplayer primarily
also, people don't hate multiplayer, they just don't like live service

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I avoid GAAS and any kind of mtx so the busiess practice doesn't bother me in terms of gameplay. I have just as much fun playing COD, Diablo or NHL as ever, even though some people like buying mtx for it.

Only thing that bothers me is they jam it into your face.

Boot up COD and every week there will be pop up boxes saying go to the e-store and buy the new skin or mtx. There's no avoiding it. Back in the old days of map packs (when mtx and dlc were in its infancy), the only time youd ever see it is if you purposely went to the game's Xbox store looking for the map pack for 1200 points.

 

[XesqueVara]

Isn´t the most played games in PC/XBOX/PS Gaas? Even Sony will try to take a piece of it.

 

[MayauMiao]

I have been playing Fallout 76, bought it during Steam sales, didn't spent a dime on microstransactions. Have close to 200 hrs playing time and I feel this is the kind of looter shooter that isn't bad.

The bright side is they keep releasing content and I can see why it continues to have strong community

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

nope it's because they're free and multiplayer, that's pretty much it

....because the industry is built up off the back of singleplayer games. many people came into the hobby because of singleplayer primarily
also, people don't hate multiplayer, they just don't like live service

If people didn't like Live Service, it wouldn't be the most popular game type in the industry.

I do agree with you about SP being the foundation of game design. Nothing but respect for those legends...but multiplayer will take it from here.

 

[Wildebeest]

Just imagine how much better gaming would be with 1000 more developers working on the next Asssasin's Creed or Call of Duty game. That future has been robbed from all of us by developers being able to earn a living making live service games and not having no alternative but to work on the one annual game that still makes money from a major publisher.