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Why did Sony Close some of their older Studios and is now buying up others when they could have maintained the ones they already had?

HTK

Banned
I was at Zipper when it closed, I grew up on SOCOM and wanted to always work on that franchise.

Zippers failures were more internal than Sony telling them what to do after the acquisition, studio in my opinion had lack of leadership/direction. SOCOM 4 didn't fail because of the PSN hack, it did hurt it no doubt about it but the game was terrible when compared to previous SOCOM iterations. I remember Shuhei Yoshida was making rounds visiting some Sony studios, Zipper and Sucker Punch in Seattle. I think he was making rounds to make a final decision who's going on the chopping block.

EDIT: What's really sad is how many talented/passionate/good people are impacted by bad leadership/management.
 
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MastaKiiLA

Member
Not remarking on any specific studio mentioned in the OP, but I love how people say studio as if it's a static object. A studio is the people who work there. People come and go, people change.
It also assumes that a studio closure means nothing is kept from the talent group. I'm certain the standout team members get offers to join other Sony teams. I doubt it happens with anyone in management, though. If you were a good project manager, you'd have been promoted to head the team, in order to get it back on track, and avoid closure. So management of those closed studios were sure to be sent packing. Anyone who liked the working environment in PS WWS, and demonstrated competency in a development role, would've joined another team.
 
I'd be OK with them rearranging studios if it meant we still get the games (Wipeout, Motorstorm, Gravity Rush, SOCOM, etc.). They took that away and gave us nothing to replace it.

Oh well. Long live the memories. It's all blockbusters, all of the time now. Makes more financial sense to have mega teams create evergreen games that sell millions upon millions. I'm not complaining too much because indies are still doing great work, but they're not as good lol.
 
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Unknown?

Member
I brought this up yesterday but it seems PD needed the PS5 horsepower to add better weather, 3D trees and realtime time of day changes. Evo had all that on the PS4. yes, they targeted 1080p 30 fps but no one forced PD to target 1080p 60 fps either. Couldve easily dropped down to 900p 60 fps saved A LOT of GPU power that couldve been used towards these features.

Sony killing evolution studios in the midst of being on top for two years at the time was just a cherry on top of a good 5 or so years where they shut down several studios and bought new. It would take them 4 more years to acquire another. Sucker Punch was the last studio they bought before buying Insomniac in 2019. That's 1 new studio in a good 9 years while shutting down around 6 studios.

If MS hadnt gone out and bought these new studios, Sony wouldnt be buying any of these new studios.
They used baked in ray tracing for lighting, it's why GT Sport looked so much better than Drive club in realistic lighting. Since PS4 clearly didn't have hw raytracing, it couldn't be real time.

You're also looking at number of studios rather than size of studios. The studios have grown massively since 2014 and studios like bigbig and cambridge were tiny.
 

yurinka

Member
Sony closed the studios that failed hard during many games: too expensive to maintain and were releasing unprofitable games that didn't have either great reviews.

Housemarque grew for Returnal but it has been a pretty small studio that maybe didn't relase super hits but kept releasing a steady amount profitable exclusive games for Sony that got good reviews, provided good games or the launch window of their devices or were one of the best showcases of new tech as it was with 3DTVs in PS3 or PSVR in PS4. In addition to this, they excel on a arcadey type of game that is pretty rare nowadays, so they make Sony's exclusive portfolio more diverse.

People keep idolizing the studio yet they haven’t made a hit game since maybe Last Guardian?
Last Guardian had good reviews but wasn't a sales hit, pretty likely was a big financial mess because they took a ton of years to develop it, it was a mess to the point they almost cancel it but Yoshida decided to save it because there was a lot of hype. It was a mess to the point that the key guys behind the game had to leave the company and other people had to finish it with these former coworkers as external consultors.

These guys never had a game with great sales after several decades and many of these games were so bad that become memes (Knack!), but at least made some great games. So it was a good idea to downsize them, make some changes and rebrand the studio.
 
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JohnnyFootball

GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Can someone explain to me how talent gets released in the gaming industry?

But others are bought up like Housemarque? I mean besides Super Stardust HD, Resogun (2 Indies) and Returnal (AA) I don't remember anything exceptional from the studio (not trying to put their talent or potential down).

Sony closed these studios for business "reasons".

Evolution - I literally get upset about this every other month.
Incognito
BigBig
Zipper
Liverpool
Cambridge

I feel like Guerilla was next if they pitched another Killzone. But why not let these "studios" present their vision and new projects? Aren't there board members and business execs from the company who also decide on what needs to sell? Who decides this? If the latter, didn't they technically kill the studios by having them make the exact same thing they wanted?

I mean why do most large Pubs buy studios just to shut them down? Liverpool (formerly Psygnosis) particularly had a legacy history on PlayStation. Let's keep the focus on Sony because *cough* EA *cough*.
It's not hard to figure out. Studios that got closed didn't make quality games. The studios that Sony bought did. Some times it makes more sense to buy a quality used car instead of trying to fix a broken old one.
 
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NickFire

Member
The enthusiast crowd tends to put way more stock in studio names than is deserved. If the talent dries up / moves to new endeavors then the name is irrelevant when it gets shut down.
 

Alphagear

Member
It was a different time. Now everything is consolidating. If Sony had those studuos now I don't think they would sell any unless they haven't performed well for a long number of years and multiple games under selling.
This is correct 100%.

Times have changed.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I was at Zipper when it closed, I grew up on SOCOM and wanted to always work on that franchise.

Zippers failures were more internal than Sony telling them what to do after the acquisition, studio in my opinion had lack of leadership/direction. SOCOM 4 didn't fail because of the PSN hack, it did hurt it no doubt about it but the game was terrible when compared to previous SOCOM iterations. I remember Shuhei Yoshida was making rounds visiting some Sony studios, Zipper and Sucker Punch in Seattle. I think he was making rounds to make a final decision who's going on the chopping block.

EDIT: What's really sad is how many talented/passionate/good people are impacted by bad leadership/management.
Didnt they launch Socom 4 a day after the PSN hack or the week before? I think they pretty much sent it to die.

Were you at Zipper when they made MAG? It was absolutely amazing but Sony completely butchered the beta which was almost impossible to get into and then even harder to play when downloaded. I think MAG's beta shouldve been held months instead of a week before launch. Build up the excitement with a competent beta and make some changes like NOT giving SVER a map advantage.
 

HTK

Banned
Didnt they launch Socom 4 a day after the PSN hack or the week before? I think they pretty much sent it to die.

Were you at Zipper when they made MAG? It was absolutely amazing but Sony completely butchered the beta which was almost impossible to get into and then even harder to play when downloaded. I think MAG's beta shouldve been held months instead of a week before launch. Build up the excitement with a competent beta and make some changes like NOT giving SVER a map advantage.

I was there after MAG had shipped. I believe the studio deep down always wanted to do MAG 2, but SOCOM was overdue for an iteration. Unfortunately it wasn't SOCOM more like a bad third person version of Call of Duty. MAG had so much potential. :(
 

LordCBH

Member
Because their titles either didn’t reach the quality they wanted or didn’t sell very well. I LOVE DriveClub, Burt that game was pants when it came out.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I was there after MAG had shipped. I believe the studio deep down always wanted to do MAG 2, but SOCOM was overdue for an iteration. Unfortunately it wasn't SOCOM more like a bad third person version of Call of Duty. MAG had so much potential. :(
Man that sucks. my SOCOM 4 copy is still shrink wrapped. I think that wasnt the only franchise to get CoD'ified by Sony that gen. After a stellar and unique KZ2, KZ3 was also made a bit more arcadey. Resistance 2 was a lot of things, but its 8 player coop mode and 60 player PvP was unlike anything on consoles at the time. For them to go back to 8v8 to chase the cod crowd pretty much killed the game.

The worst thing about it is that Sony got the FPS crowd after PS4 launched. All the xbox MP players moved on to the PS4 and if Sony had those franchises still in development, they wouldve found a way bigger crowd. Even KZSF doubled KZ2 sales with over 2 million sold in just under 7 weeks. And it was by far the worst KZ game. I think MAG 2 wouldve found a huge audience on the PS4 especially after seeing how big Battle royale became this gen. Insomniac couldve really taken resistance 2's coop in a different direction similar to Destiny and Division and had a lot of success there.

Sony really dropped the ball here.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Sounds the same as any other company firing people and rehiring for the same job.

The people who got axed werent doing a great job and/or cost too much.

They'll rehire new blood that has better skills and even better if they are cheaper too.

That's why lots of companies start to gut people when they hit 60. They are overpaid, probably getting too cozy and stodgy at their job so it's time to being in fresh blood with new ideas.

In most companies, firing/rehiring isn't a big hassle. A couple people get axed. A couple people fill in. But game studios is big as it involves lots of people and making a new studio seems like a pain to get it up and running, a new studio name and PR etc.... But if top management is still willing to go through the process to start over it means the fired studio must had been really not worth it.
 
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Bryank75

Banned
Liverpool should still be there, great studio.

Zipper had a bad run of luck but should have been invested in or replaced by another shooter focused studio.

Simple facts are there has been a ton of studios shut down and downsized. On top of that MLB is multiplatform now. Mm is not making commercial games, some studios are on VR duty and there are other issues too.
Pixelopus has not shown that they can make AAA stuff yet either.

So the claim that Sony has an effective number of 14 creative studios is dubious if not completely false.

They need some serious expansion with some heavy hitting IP gets..... this isn't about maintaining the status quo, this is about targeting growth in multiple vectors and I just do not feel any drive coming from PS management in this regard.
More focus being put into mobile gaming and film.
 

Perrott

Gold Member
Sony (as a whole) was in the shit a decade ago. On top of that, some of the studios you mention were underperforming heavily at the time in terms of sales, critical reception and sometimes even both.
 

Perrott

Gold Member
Evolution was a travesty.

Whats worse is their technology seems to have gone with them.
At the very least Sony could have kept the engine and tech to be used on other titles.

Sony dont exactly need an Arcade racer but who doesnt like an Arcade racer?

P.S
Sometimes one studio doesnt make as much sense as another, so you close one then immediately buy a another one.
The DriveClub engine remained at Sony. Former Evolution developers pointed that out during interviews after they were all hired by Codemasters.

The real travesty here is that Sony didn't seem to have done anything at all with such an impressive toolset, similarly to Konami with the FOX Engine after Kojima's departure.
 
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Papacheeks

Banned
Sony (as a whole) was in the shit a decade ago. On top of that, some of the studios you mention were underperforming heavily at the time in terms of sales, critical reception and sometimes even both.

Yea, and making the same thing that you had made the previous gen in a time where the platform isn't doing well does not bode well when a company needs to stop the bleeding. Naughty Dog literally created Uncharted and Last of us in the same gen. Santa monica though had some mishaps, made a great god of war 3, and phat princess along with Journey.

Zipper literally went from Socom 3 to MAG, Mag bombed, then tried to make another socom, that was not great, and then made another clone of socom in the form of that vita game.

You can say that studios like Insomniac are making the same games, but they iterate on them in many ways. On top of trying experimental games like SUnset overdrive in the past. Plus their efficiency in output is crazy.
None of those studios were canned before their games came out. ANd like Evolution studios were given ample post release time to get their shit in order. Can't make giant investments over the course of 2 decades and not have some collateral damage when studios have little internal direction.

Right now Blizzard is going through the same thing as mass exodus happens, alot of it was not the studios fault and more the larger company changing blizzard over the course of their ownership.
 
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Why the fuck does it matter? Lmao It’s like asking “Why does Target close stores in one location and open stores in another?”.
 

SaucyJack

Member
People try to play arm chair CEO but the really inner workings are more complicated. Probably numerous reasons the public will never know about. Vision, leadership, management, technology, costs, office leases, talent drain, personnel issues, personality conflicts, poor products, uninspired roadmap, wrong time/wrong place. What’s probably most important is that the talented individual developers and artists on those teams got picked up by other studios.

Exactly.

Take Incognito, once Campbell and Jaffe had left the studio (to form Eat Sleep Pray) was done.
 

TheAssist

Member
People try to play arm chair CEO but the really inner workings are more complicated. Probably numerous reasons the public will never know about. Vision, leadership, management, technology, costs, office leases, talent drain, personnel issues, personality conflicts, poor products, uninspired roadmap, wrong time/wrong place. What’s probably most important is that the talented individual developers and artists on those teams got picked up by other studios.
Can we pin this answer at the first post every time this discussion comes up again?
 

Perrott

Gold Member
Yea, and making the same thing that you had made the previous gen in a time where the platform isn't doing well does not bode well when a company needs to stop the bleeding. Naughty Dog literally created Uncharted and Last of us in the same gen. Santa monica though had some mishaps, made a great god of war 3, and phat princess along with Journey.

Zipper literally went from Socom 3 to MAG, Mag bombed, then tried to make another socom, that was not great, and then made another clone of socom in the form of that vita game.

You can say that studios like Insomniac are making the same games, but they iterate on them in many ways. On top of trying experimental games like SUnset overdrive in the past. Plus their efficiency in output is crazy.
None of those studios were canned before their games came out. ANd like Evolution studios were given ample post release time to get their shit in order. Can't make giant investments over the course of 2 decades and not have some collateral damage when studios have little internal direction.

Right now Blizzard is going through the same thing as mass exodus happens, alot of it was not the studios fault and more the larger company changing blizzard over the course of their ownership.
I couldn't have said it better.

Santa Monica Studio was on the same boat as many of the developers mentioned in the OP and I guarantee you that they would have been axed as well had 2018's God of War fail to become such a massive hit for Sony, because the studio was coming off an underperforming mainline GOW game with Ascension and a massive new IP cancelled after four years of development.

Japan Studio on the other hand were given the chance during the PS4 generation to produce a "GOW" of their own under the supervision of Allan Becker, but they failed miserably at it. That's why Japan Studio is no more, while only Team Asobi managed to survive the studio's closure thanks to the success of Astro Bot.
 

Fredrik

Member
They don’t tolerate failure. Evolution fucked up Driveclub launch….gone.
They had among the best post-launch content that whole generation, was constantly in the discussion for the best graphics, still have the best rain effects in racing, and Motorstorm was among the best offroad arcade racing IPs the generation before, still have the best mud track physics outside of the Mudrunner/Snowrunner IPs, could easily have been Sony’s Forza Horizon. It’s one of the strangest closures ever imo. It’s like there was something personal going on. After the GT Sports launch they should’ve closed Polyphony instead but they got the chance to redeem themselves.
 
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Keihart

Member
I only disagree with the downsizing of Japan Studio, but most of the studios had it coming, WWS under Shuhei ( and doesn't seem to have changed all that much going by interviews) were pretty free to pitch whatever they wanted and more often than not get the greenlight, their success with games , critically more than financially used to be what kept them around.

I'm still upset about Japan Studio mostly because everything points at them getting cucked once Yoshida was out and not getting green light on new projects from their big teams just to get downsized later.
(Evolution got fucked by the launch reviews, with how much it underperformed sales wise, the launch reviews nailed the coffin )
 
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Zeroing

Banned
Ok, people have to put into context that the PS3 era was very difficult time. Even uncharted did not sold amazingly. I was harder and more time needed to make games using PS3 cell architecture.
Everyone is focusing on Sony but compare it with the same time frame, other studios were being closed as well. PS4 era was the time were no studios were acquired, it was a time for consolidation.
 

Jaxcellent

Member
It's all about they money,... How it works:
Remember, this is not how i want it to work, it's business:

Studio's that Have XXX employees need to make a game that equals XXX money, if this target is off, changes will be made to try to steer it on target, if that doesn't work 2 or 3 times (game development is pretty long). they cut their losses and cancel the studio.

They keep the best performing or essential people, fire the rest and buy a new studio that is performing well and add the good performing and essential people from the studio that got cancelled to the new studio or other studio's that need support.
 

Fahdis

Member
"Why would I want a hamburger when I already have a hot dog, they are both grilled foods so doesn't that make them exactly the same thing and completely fungible?" - the OP

Nice one in consideration of projecting your flawed logic onto me in a malign way. I asked for the business logic. Not your emotional thinking of my perspective. Alot of great answers in this thread already.
 

Raonak

Banned
They failed to deliver results. Simple as that.

Sony Japan did basically nothing for the entirely of the PS4 and PS4 generation. Ueda was long gone already. The best parts of it (astrobot and partnerships) still exist as team asobi and xdev.

Liverpool couldn't make anything that wasn't a wipeout port.

Evolution fucked up on driveclub.

Zipper fucked up on mag and socom4.

These days, Sony does not want studios that miss, because it undermines the effort that the other studios put it. Sony don't want to carry a studio that can't produce.
 
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bender

What time is it?
You might want to see the portfolio of these closed studios (especially their legacy titles). They literally had 1 or 2 games in their low 70's as per reviews before getting shut down.

Sales, not metacritic. If the companies games were highly profitable, Sony wouldn't have jettisoned them.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Evolution only made arcade racers and those games simply do not sell anymore. Even EA has issues selling Need for Speed for a good few years now. Its been in hiatus and passed around a lot. Burnout is dead. Evo's games just underperformed despite Driveclub being really good. OnRush completely bombed, which came out after they were let go.

Liverpool made Wipeout games; see above.

Zipper made SOCOM, a franchise that sold far less than Killzone and even that is buried. The co-op/MP space is crowded. They don't have the tech Guerrilla has, they could sustain because of their games pushing the hardware and Horizon turned out to be a behemoth.

Incognito, see above.

Really, these studios were all one trick ponies. And their franchises don't sell anymore. Even though I am a fan of Driveclub and Motorstorm I can see why they would let a studio dedicated to these games go. They're better off signing a third party if they want an arcade racer for some reason.
 

YCoCg

Member
psygnosis-logo.jpg


tenor.gif
 

Yoboman

Member
Alot of those studios really struggled to keep up with the times and most of those studio closures happened while Sony was not only struggling with PS3 but also the company as a whole

They are much healthier now and their PS Studios cross team support structure is world class so they may not have made the same decisions now as they did then
 

kingfey

Banned
Business has no feelings. You underperform, you are out. You dont make enough money for the company, you are out. companies dont hire enough people, because they dont want to pay for benefits. They will happily hire contracts to save money.
 

Amiga

Member
the UK studios were shut down because of tax issues. IIRC there was supposed to be a tax incentive to keep game development industry viable in the UK. but politics stopped that and the studios had to close.

Zipper and Incognito were victims of bad timing in the PS3 era. at the time Sony was years in the red. Incognito lost staff after Warhawk and dissolved. a number formed a new studio and made Starhawk but the game failed and the new studio with it. Zipper got the funding to make 2 games, SOCOM & MAG, but both failed and the studio were shut down after that.
 

YCoCg

Member
the UK studios were shut down because of tax issues. IIRC there was supposed to be a tax incentive to keep game development industry viable in the UK. but politics stopped that and the studios had to close.
Ahh yeah I remember that, one of the first things the Conservatives done when they got back into power, "FUCK THIS GAMING BS!", poor Bizarre Creations was a casualty due to this.
 

KAL2006

Banned
They failed to deliver results. Simple as that.

Sony Japan did basically nothing for the entirely of the PS4 and PS4 generation. Ueda was long gone already. The best parts of it (astrobot and partnerships) still exist as team asobi and xdev.

Liverpool couldn't make anything that wasn't a wipeout port.

Evolution fucked up on driveclub.

Zipper fucked up on mag and socom4.

These days, Sony does not want studios that miss, because it undermines the effort that the other studios put it. Sony don't want to carry a studio that can't produce.

I think out of all those not keeping Evolution was a mistake as well as Liverpool. There are also other teams they shouldn't have let go like Guerilla Cambridge that made a decent Killzone for Vita. I think a 2 strike system would have worked better. Evolution only messed up one game which was driveclub. It's not like they were doing terrible long term like Japan or had 2 flops in a row critically and commercially with MAG and Socom. If a studio has made 2 commercial and critical bobms in a row then I agree they need to get rid.
 

KAL2006

Banned
the UK studios were shut down because of tax issues. IIRC there was supposed to be a tax incentive to keep game development industry viable in the UK. but politics stopped that and the studios had to close.

Zipper and Incognito were victims of bad timing in the PS3 era. at the time Sony was years in the red. Incognito lost staff after Warhawk and dissolved. a number formed a new studio and made Starhawk but the game failed and the new studio with it. Zipper got the funding to make 2 games, SOCOM & MAG, but both failed and the studio were shut down after that.

Hmm I do remember hearing about this actually but it's strange that there are still game studuos in the UK in fact my cousin works for Rebellion who are known for Zombie Army Trilogy.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
I couldn't have said it better.

Santa Monica Studio was on the same boat as many of the developers mentioned in the OP and I guarantee you that they would have been axed as well had 2018's God of War fail to become such a massive hit for Sony, because the studio was coming off an underperforming mainline GOW game with Ascension and a massive new IP cancelled after four years of development.

Japan Studio on the other hand were given the chance during the PS4 generation to produce a "GOW" of their own under the supervision of Allan Becker, but they failed miserably at it. That's why Japan Studio is no more, while only Team Asobi managed to survive the studio's closure thanks to the success of Astro Bot.

Santa Monica was also a support studio though, and honestly have a history of making different IP's and making money. It would have taken them flopping god of war 3, ascension, God of war 2018 to be downsized. I doubt sony would have closed them.

If they had not made any hits during PS2 era I would have agreed. But santa monica has made hits in PS1, PS2, PS3 and not all of them were super expensive only a the big AAA titles were costly.
But the sentiment in your post is true when looking at the bigger scheme in how Publishers work. Look at what Activision has done to Vicarious Visions, and Toy4BOB? And a lot of it is Activisions fault in how they changed Blizzard's internal workings. If they had let Blizzard do whatever they wanted, things would be vastly different.

Not to go on a rant, but people sometimes including me like to paint Playstation and Nintendo as these tone deaf companies. And to some extent recently in how they have handled some things I would have to agree. Specifically pricing. But those things are easily changed/remedied quickly. What can't be fixed is studio culture. Once it's broken or changed a lot of the people leave who started the studio. So getting back to that early style of culture is almost impossible.

Hence why 343 as a replacement for Bungie will always have issues with direction. Even with Joe Staten behind the wheel, he was not the only person who made halo what was back in early 2000's.
I have to give Playstation and NIntendo credit. They stayed true to what they are, and to an extent let studios be who they are in what they make and how they make it. Because of that faith though you get studios who internally I think get to cushy and make the same game because of that mentality. Sometimes they think if they make the same game but with incredible quality its going to be enough.

Well in this current climate, it's not.

I dont have hope for Blizzard, im calling it now i given them till 2023-2024 before people stop caring about their output.
If it were up to me as an original owner of blizzard, if the time comes to buy back, I totally would. LET THE oldguard get it back and bring back all the original people who made blizzard what it use to be. But those days, and that scenario are a pipe dream.
 
Sony has a high standard they expect out of their studios. B-tier won't cut it. If a studio is making 70 metacritic games that sell just well enough to break even, they'll get replaced with studios Sony has close working relationships that are proving themselves.

It's that simple. Quality > quantity.

People think that is cocky, but that's exactly how it should be. Just look at the games Sony first-party studios put out last generation. Look at the games from the studios that were closed and look at the games from the studios they were replaced with.

Sony isn't trying to make games for a rental service. They need games that will sell for full MSRP. Different philosophy from Microsoft.
 
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dezzy8

Member
SOCOM was great back in the day, but its really just a generic tactical military shooter. It won't have a real identity today to distinguish itself from juggernauts like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Rainbow 6, etc.

I would much rather them reboot Killzone and do the lore of that universe some justice.
It’d be the only third person tactical shooter out there. The shooters you all named are first person.
 

Amiga

Member
Hmm I do remember hearing about this actually but it's strange that there are still game studuos in the UK in fact my cousin works for Rebellion who are known for Zombie Army Trilogy.

it is difficult to maintain studios in the UK, not impossible. Sony still have Media Molecule. but the other studios couldn't make enough in returns. Rebellion are keeping themselves busy and keep getting enough revenue stay open.
 

AmuroChan

Member
You're asking for reasons and explanations that only top level execs at SIE would even know. How are we supposed to know why Sony closed Zipper in 2012 but bought Housemarque in 2021?
 
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