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Whoever says 343i isn't talented aren't really looking at the entire picture...

-Arcadia-

Banned
Came here to hate on OP, lol, but was introduced to some really cool aspects of the MCC. I can appreciate some of the excellent things they've accomplished as well, like Halo 4's visuals and story, the modern MCC itself, or the remaster/original toggle in their redos.

I still don't think that outweighs the insane amount of damage done, including the latest round with Infinite's visuals. Under their watch Halo has gone from the biggest thing in gaming, to kind of a B-franchise with constant, hilarious screw ups.

Frankly, 343 idiots is still one of the funniest jokes I've seen on Gaf, and jokes don't resonate that much unless there's some truth to them.
 

Garnox

Member
Untalented? No, not at all, they worked some real magic visually with Halo 4...

Guilty of mismanaging the Halo IP? Yeah.

Pretty much this.

I feel it takes a degree of talent to work collaboratively on projects such as Halo. There's no arguing that.

Utilizing that talent in a more cohesive and productive manner...whaaaaaaale.
 

Kev Kev

Member
Frankly, 343 idiots is still one of the funniest jokes I've seen on Gaf
tenor.gif
 
Im buying Halo Infinite. I have MCC on PC. I love Halo.

But 343 has far more negatives than positives at this point.

Still willing to give them a chance tho. I’m just not being foolish. And I think Noble Six can still be alive in the story...
 

Lillie

Member
343i is the worst dev team I've ever known. (Halo is my favourite fps series).

-Failed to understand halo in Halo 4's multiplayer with awful loadouts (cod) in addition to ordinance drops in-game.
-Halo MCC's xbox launch was killed on release 2014-2018. (Killed classic fan's experience for Years).
-Halo 5's Campaign was terrible, and MP was questionable with modern "mobility mechanics" that deviated from halo gameplay. It also did not have many multiplayer game modes at launch and added content that should have been there at launch and tried to make it seem like they were doing the community a big favour by adding it in as "free DLC". Also the game had MICROTRANSACTIONS - how can you defend this in a full priced game. They also thought adding split screen (a staple to the series) was a "big deal". Additionally, never forget "Hunt the Truth".

343 has easily fooled me over 3 times.

The recent Halo Infinite demo has proven how they are in an awful situation 4 months before launch. Free to play is only being released as a copout for it being poor in quality and most likely void of gamemodes and features at launch. This is their crutch.
 
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pixelation

Member
I think that they need to ship out a damned good and finished game, the fact that they're already saying that we'll need a patch to get a feature (ray tracing) that should be included at launch speaks loudly.
 

Iorv3th

Member
343i is the worst dev team I've ever known. (Halo is my favourite fps series).

-Failed to understand halo in Halo 4's multiplayer with awful loadouts (cod)
-Halo MCC's xbox launch was killed on release 2014-2018. (Killed classic fan's experience for Years).
-Halo 5's Campaign was terrible, and MP was questionable with modern "mobility mechanics" that deviated from halo gameplay. It also did not have many multiplayer game modes at launch and added content that should have been there at launch and tried to make it seem like they were doing the community a big favour by adding it in as "free DLC". Also the game had MICROTRANSACTIONS - how can you defend this in a full priced game. They also thought adding split screen (a staple to the series) was a "big deal". Additionally, never forget "Hunt the Truth".

343 has easily fooled me over 3 times.

The recent Halo Infinite demo has proven how they are in an awful situation 4 months before launch. Free to play is only being released as a copout for it being poor in quality and most likely void of gamemodes and features at launch. This is their crutch.

Dont forget their first outing with the Halo CE remaster on 360. Was a buggy piece of shit especially if playing online. Framerate would at times be in single digit or freeze completely in the library level.
 

Wimbledon

Member
I'm sorry i just can't with this.

343i has always dropped the ball. My main gripe with them they never listen to the fans never did. They divided the fanbase, pretty much told old fans to fuck off, and tried an experiment with halo when the fanbase knew IT WOULD NOT WORK!

Look at Halo infinite now, even though it still has the mobility mechanics, they've focused primarily on the sandbox the items and tools you can use just like HALO 3. I remember people saying improve on the sandbox years ago but they finally listened.

But with 343i they will do 1 positive thing, then take 2 or 3 steps back.

If they had listened to the fanbase they wouldn't be in the position they are in with fans. I see a lot of blind optimism, optimism, and hope that 343i has not proven they deserve.

I'm not wishing failure on Halo infinite, but with there track record I just don't see a win in there future here.

I think what's going to happen is that heads are going to roll and I hope Bonnie Ross is the first one gone, along with Kiki wolf kill and possibly frankie i don't know.

But i never like 343i message in the first place, there more worried about merchandising, the media around halo, false advertising (hunt the truth), pretending they care what we have to say and they don't, shoving social justice narrative as if halo didn't have great diverse characters in the first place. When the only message that matters is making a great game, nailing that 30 seconds of fun gameplay loop.

I never wanted Halo to be Destiny, no one asked for this. But they want to take on something new AGAIN, and say that there going to work on this for the next 10 years. :pie_thinking:

This is their last chance, and they're already messing up.
 

Fbh

Member
More than 10 years in charge of the Halo franchise and the best product they have released is a bunch of late PC remasters of the games made by the previous studio, which are based on the broken ports they released on Xb1 and had to spend years fixing.

And that's supposed to prove how talented they are and how wrong people are about them?
 
Are we just going to ignore the state Halo MCC shipped in? And was in for like 4 years?

There's suspension of disbelief, and then there's lying to yourself.

Cue the response: "Atleast they stuck with it and eventually fixed it.......... after years."

Years+ to fix it. That's what we should give them a pat on the back for....

Edit: And it mostly wasn't even them that fixed it but outside companies.
 
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Dane

Member
I get what OP's is saying, these stuff were not on the original games and that's a good thing.

However, the truth is that 343i involvement in MCC as whole is not the majority as people believe, in fact, most of the work was actually done by Saber, Splash Damage and Certain Affinity, I can pardon partially in regard of MP issues because of the Eldritch Code that the whole thing may be because of stuff like switching engines even on MP, increasing the framerate (PC version of CE actually had animations at 30 FPS) and other stuff.

And 343i has a very mixed to negative record, Halo 4 was a pass because it was their first and the graphics were impressive and campaign was considered good but shit MP, then on Halo 5 the artstyle change was more pronounced and campaign was considered shit, MP great, tech wise it was considered good, but not impressive as Halo 4, easily considered the worst game of the franchise. Now on Halo Infinite they managed to fuck up with the graphics, are they everything? Of course not, but the studio hasn't proven for what it came with an once acclaimed franchise and graphics on the first look are considered the preview of the whole effort, which means that if they did bad with that, what about the rest (I did like the gameplay and art style though)?
 
Idk if they are talented or not.

They made my favorite Halo campaign, Halo 4. They also made my least favorite Halo campaign, Halo 5.

I just can’t imagine the game being anything less than great after all the time and help they have had.
 
2007

Bungie split from Microsoft in 2007, and 343 was formed to fill the void. It's been 13 years and 343 is still claiming growing pains as a new studio. Thirteen years. Still trying to learn from fans what makes Halo...Halo. Thirteen years. If they're still "listening" and don't know...something is wrong. A lot is wrong.

They still don't know. But they now have an undisclosed 10-year plan to get it back on track. Which will bring them to 23 years.

Halo was a crown jewel, not just of Microsoft, but of the gaming industry. The game all shooters were compared to. Everyone wanted to build a "Halo-killer." It was the benchmark of console shooters and online play. Anyone heard the term "Halo killer" in the past decade? Only as a joke and even that has faded.

What has been the constant over the thirteen years? The original leadership of 343. Bonnie Ross. Kiki Wolfkill. Frankie O'Connor. People hired with the thinnest of resumes to run a multi-billion dollar IP. There has been a victim mentality around the studio since founding. How they had to create a AAA studio from scratch (never mind the most generous budget in gaming). How they had to bring the old game forward to new technology. It's been 13 years.

I've watched the vidocs over the years. Those vidocs were great with Bungie. The Bungie guys talked about all of the things they wanted to build. They always seemed genuinely worried that all of their ideas wouldn't be possible. The 343 folks talk about their "passion." Passionate people don't talk about "passion." It's a buzzword people use in a dead relationship. I've seen Frank O'Connor referred to by 343 leadership as "The Godfather of Halo" and "The Face of Halo." He went from community manager at Bungie to a leadership position of multi-billion dollar IP overnight. Bungie could have kept him if they thought highly of him. Bonnie Ross...never ran a studio of any size...and was given the keys and budget to a AAA studio. Kiki Wolfkill was the head of the art department for Project Gotham...enough said. I'm sure there are indeed skilled people at 343 but even skilled people need a framework for success.

Other problems are obvious from the outside. Too many chiefs not enough Indians--way too many producers, leads, and assorted other grandiose positions and titles. Legions of "writers" for a video game--if the game itself doesn't move the story forward, a legion of writers can't fix it with overwrought dialog.

Granted, forming a AAA studio is difficult. Mistakes are made. But for a huge IP, mistakes should be corrected quickly. The Coalition was essentially a new studio in 2010. They foundered on a few projects as a small studio. Then Microsoft bought the Gears IP and tasked Black Tusk/The Coalition with building out a AAA studio. What did they do to right the ship? They brought in veterans like Rod Fergusson who had delivered at Epic and Irrational. We've had two good Gears games in the past 5 years and may have an enhanced Gears 5 at the launch of the new box. Fergusson is now at Blizzard working on Diablo. Any guesses as to how many companies are trying to hire away Bonnie, Frankie, and Kiki? Yeah...none.

People still care about Halo. The fans are tired of 343's excuses and deflections. Our patience is not "infinite."

I don't even blame 343 at this point. They've been permitted to wander aimlessly for too long. Changes in leadership must be made.
 

Dane

Member
2007

Bungie split from Microsoft in 2007, and 343 was formed to fill the void. It's been 13 years and 343 is still claiming growing pains as a new studio. Thirteen years. Still trying to learn from fans what makes Halo...Halo. Thirteen years. If they're still "listening" and don't know...something is wrong. A lot is wrong.

They still don't know. But they now have an undisclosed 10-year plan to get it back on track. Which will bring them to 23 years.

Halo was a crown jewel, not just of Microsoft, but of the gaming industry. The game all shooters were compared to. Everyone wanted to build a "Halo-killer." It was the benchmark of console shooters and online play. Anyone heard the term "Halo killer" in the past decade? Only as a joke and even that has faded.

What has been the constant over the thirteen years? The original leadership of 343. Bonnie Ross. Kiki Wolfkill. Frankie O'Connor. People hired with the thinnest of resumes to run a multi-billion dollar IP. There has been a victim mentality around the studio since founding. How they had to create a AAA studio from scratch (never mind the most generous budget in gaming). How they had to bring the old game forward to new technology. It's been 13 years.

I've watched the vidocs over the years. Those vidocs were great with Bungie. The Bungie guys talked about all of the things they wanted to build. They always seemed genuinely worried that all of their ideas wouldn't be possible. The 343 folks talk about their "passion." Passionate people don't talk about "passion." It's a buzzword people use in a dead relationship. I've seen Frank O'Connor referred to by 343 leadership as "The Godfather of Halo" and "The Face of Halo." He went from community manager at Bungie to a leadership position of multi-billion dollar IP overnight. Bungie could have kept him if they thought highly of him. Bonnie Ross...never ran a studio of any size...and was given the keys and budget to a AAA studio. Kiki Wolfkill was the head of the art department for Project Gotham...enough said. I'm sure there are indeed skilled people at 343 but even skilled people need a framework for success.

Other problems are obvious from the outside. Too many chiefs not enough Indians--way too many producers, leads, and assorted other grandiose positions and titles. Legions of "writers" for a video game--if the game itself doesn't move the story forward, a legion of writers can't fix it with overwrought dialog.

Granted, forming a AAA studio is difficult. Mistakes are made. But for a huge IP, mistakes should be corrected quickly. The Coalition was essentially a new studio in 2010. They foundered on a few projects as a small studio. Then Microsoft bought the Gears IP and tasked Black Tusk/The Coalition with building out a AAA studio. What did they do to right the ship? They brought in veterans like Rod Fergusson who had delivered at Epic and Irrational. We've had two good Gears games in the past 5 years and may have an enhanced Gears 5 at the launch of the new box. Fergusson is now at Blizzard working on Diablo. Any guesses as to how many companies are trying to hire away Bonnie, Frankie, and Kiki? Yeah...none.

People still care about Halo. The fans are tired of 343's excuses and deflections. Our patience is not "infinite."

I don't even blame 343 at this point. They've been permitted to wander aimlessly for too long. Changes in leadership must be made.

Exactly, Ross was a manager at MGS which the staff provided Quality Assurance and Localization for both first and third party exclusives, these two things are important, but in a game development, they represent a small share of the work done. Kiki was art lead for MGS projects and Project Gotham, which is nice, but transmedia is a tough thing that is mostly pushed at just marketing level rather than memorable stuff, althrough it may fit the description. and Frank Was as you said, content manager...

And that's the problem, when you start to pick up people to stuff they have zero to little experience into what they were assigned: Ross managed the sidework part of projects, not a game of medium or large size. Kiki is actually a ex-racedriver that mostly worked games based on her profession/passion. Frank job was being the studio caretaker and helping with marketing and PR content.
 
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DonF

Member
So what you are saying is give them more time, 3 more years and you will see! 10 years total development time...
 
2007

Bungie split from Microsoft in 2007, and 343 was formed to fill the void. It's been 13 years and 343 is still claiming growing pains as a new studio. Thirteen years. Still trying to learn from fans what makes Halo...Halo. Thirteen years. If they're still "listening" and don't know...something is wrong. A lot is wrong.

They still don't know. But they now have an undisclosed 10-year plan to get it back on track. Which will bring them to 23 years.

Halo was a crown jewel, not just of Microsoft, but of the gaming industry. The game all shooters were compared to. Everyone wanted to build a "Halo-killer." It was the benchmark of console shooters and online play. Anyone heard the term "Halo killer" in the past decade? Only as a joke and even that has faded.

What has been the constant over the thirteen years? The original leadership of 343. Bonnie Ross. Kiki Wolfkill. Frankie O'Connor. People hired with the thinnest of resumes to run a multi-billion dollar IP. There has been a victim mentality around the studio since founding. How they had to create a AAA studio from scratch (never mind the most generous budget in gaming). How they had to bring the old game forward to new technology. It's been 13 years.

I've watched the vidocs over the years. Those vidocs were great with Bungie. The Bungie guys talked about all of the things they wanted to build. They always seemed genuinely worried that all of their ideas wouldn't be possible. The 343 folks talk about their "passion." Passionate people don't talk about "passion." It's a buzzword people use in a dead relationship. I've seen Frank O'Connor referred to by 343 leadership as "The Godfather of Halo" and "The Face of Halo." He went from community manager at Bungie to a leadership position of multi-billion dollar IP overnight. Bungie could have kept him if they thought highly of him. Bonnie Ross...never ran a studio of any size...and was given the keys and budget to a AAA studio. Kiki Wolfkill was the head of the art department for Project Gotham...enough said. I'm sure there are indeed skilled people at 343 but even skilled people need a framework for success.

Other problems are obvious from the outside. Too many chiefs not enough Indians--way too many producers, leads, and assorted other grandiose positions and titles. Legions of "writers" for a video game--if the game itself doesn't move the story forward, a legion of writers can't fix it with overwrought dialog.

Granted, forming a AAA studio is difficult. Mistakes are made. But for a huge IP, mistakes should be corrected quickly. The Coalition was essentially a new studio in 2010. They foundered on a few projects as a small studio. Then Microsoft bought the Gears IP and tasked Black Tusk/The Coalition with building out a AAA studio. What did they do to right the ship? They brought in veterans like Rod Fergusson who had delivered at Epic and Irrational. We've had two good Gears games in the past 5 years and may have an enhanced Gears 5 at the launch of the new box. Fergusson is now at Blizzard working on Diablo. Any guesses as to how many companies are trying to hire away Bonnie, Frankie, and Kiki? Yeah...none.

People still care about Halo. The fans are tired of 343's excuses and deflections. Our patience is not "infinite."

I don't even blame 343 at this point. They've been permitted to wander aimlessly for too long. Changes in leadership must be made.

Thank you for this.

This was a very well informed and thought out post and I'd just like to thank you for that pretty darn good read.
 

Azurro

Banned
It's incredibly, incredibly hard to deliver a product. Working in games development is very demanding, and there are lots of really, really talented and smart people in even midtier studios. However, usually what brings it down isn't the talent available, but the management of the project.

What is the plan to deliver it? What are the available resources? How much tech debt does the project have? What are the risk elements? I wouldn't want to speculate with very little information, but if I was forced to bet, I'd say that this is what is bringing all of their projects down, probably really bad project management, lack of a clear vision, bad company culture. It might not even be the studio heads themselves, MS is always chasing the latest trends (and is usually late to the party to them), so it could even be that. Without any information it's hard to tell.
 
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down 2 orth

Member
Microsoft is kind of like EA in that they inevitably turn their successes into failures. I'm guessing they have similar corporate cultures.
 

REE Machine

Banned
They have yet to make a good Halo game after 2 tries. Thats like saying the first 2 god of wats were garbage and we are banking on them finally nailing the third one....
 
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