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Who knew that giving a female character feminine features would be so offensive.

I think what bothers me most is the whole concept of game characters being involved in someone's empowerment, in any way.

If anything, the characters on screen are like puppet toys that you control. Fantasy puppets whose strings you pull. You think all the men who choose female (or alien, or bizarre) characters in games are identifying with them or internalizing them? They just want to control a puppet that looks cool, creepy, or attractive or whatever.

They don't bear the burden of "representing" you any more than the beloved Skeletor toy of my youth made me want to have empty eye sockets.
 
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Imo people complaining about Rivet looking too feminine are every bit as goofy as people complaining about Abby looking too manly. Or even in this case when curvy is perceived as offensive when a chubbier curvy would offend someone else. Of course you're not going to please everyone, but as already mentioned it's good to have an open discussion into current designs and overall goals.

I'm 100% for sexualizing characters - love it! Give me more, but obviously there's an issue at times when it comes to idealization of certain characters like the tall, strong, muscular man or others, largely woman, being sexualized ie Whisper, platekini, tits the size of two moons, etc.

Yes, women like sexy characters too, but they also like having a voice heard and respected when it comes to what they enjoy in games even if it varies as much as it does when it comes to men. But hey, who doesn't enjoy that?
 

TheDreadBaron

Gold Member
I was just sharing some absolutely beautiful clips of Guilty Gear Strive with my uncle and commenting how embarassing it is that western developers on average are afraid to celebrate the human form. And it’s not like Arcsys is afraid to bend gender roles, just look at Bridget from some of the older titles. Designers are free to design whatever they want, and sometimes it’s goofy as hell like the sorcerer from Dragon’s Crown, but save your offenses for real people please. Ignoring the actual designer who is in the room to be offended on some theoretical person’s behalf about a fictional character’s hip to waist ratio is just so fucking cringe.
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
Because videogames are inherently idealistic in the same way movies are.
But in many movies, the lead character and sometimes the support actors\actress is not a good looking person. Like the character that's being created determines if they should be hot or not. It shouldn't just default to "HOT" all the time.
 

bit_blaster

Neo Member
But in many movies, the lead character and sometimes the support actors\actress is not a good looking person. Like the character that's being created determines if they should be hot or not. It shouldn't just default to "HOT" all the time.
That really depends on the type of movie. In a comedy movie, the lead is usually a pretty schlubby or average looking dude who gets by on being funny. In an action movie its usually a very tough and athletic looking man with an attractive female sidekick or love interest.

Videogames parallel action movies more since the stories are usually action or adventure based, and since the characters are created and not dependent on casting actors, the designers are free to make the characters as idealistic as they please, and judging by the success rates of certain games or other mediums, people generally prefer tough men and hot women.
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
That really depends on the type of movie. In a comedy movie, the lead is usually a pretty schlubby or average looking dude who gets by on being funny. In an action movie its usually a very tough and athletic looking man with an attractive female sidekick or love interest.

Videogames parallel action movies more since the stories are usually action or adventure based, and since the characters are created and not dependent on casting actors, the designers are free to make the characters as idealistic as they please, and judging by the success rates of certain games or other mediums, people generally prefer tough men and hot women.

I guess that's the difference between me and some others here. Every game I play doesn't have to "feel" like an action movie.
 
It's dangerous to me, because I'm not sure "WHY" us men gamers "NEED" to be attracted to female characters that we play in games.
You're still failing to point out the DANGEROUS part of having an informed opinion on what is and isn't attractive.
There's no "WE" here, it's very much a YOU problem, and you're being very weird about this for some reason.
People like to look at and associate themselves with pretty things. More news at 11.
I don't need farmer Billy Jim Bob and his one-eyed wife in my entertainment product any more than I need a cow hoof in my cheeseburger.
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
You're still failing to point out the DANGEROUS part of having an informed opinion on what is and isn't attractive.
There's no "WE" here, it's very much a YOU problem, and you're being very weird about this for some reason.
People like to look at and associate themselves with pretty things. More news at 11.
I don't need farmer Billy Jim Bob and his one-eyed wife in my entertainment product any more than I need a cow hoof in my cheeseburger.

It's dangerous to state that a woman that looks like Abby can't be attractive. Or that she doesn't look like a woman. I thought I explained that earlier in the thread. And no one is stating we should have one-eyed woman as leads in a game.

People like me are saying this lead character looks fine for a mainstream video game. But many on GAF lost their minds for some odd reason. To me, they are the weirdos.

 

Dane

Member
These people are oblivious to reality, many of the female "sexualized" characters in japanese games that gives you option to play as them are mostly chosen by female players in proportion, not to mention when these characters are likely to be designed by women too.
 

Vaelka

Member
Imo people complaining about Rivet looking too feminine are every bit as goofy as people complaining about Abby looking too manly. Or even in this case when curvy is perceived as offensive when a chubbier curvy would offend someone else. Of course you're not going to please everyone, but as already mentioned it's good to have an open discussion into current designs and overall goals.

I'm 100% for sexualizing characters - love it! Give me more, but obviously there's an issue at times when it comes to idealization of certain characters like the tall, strong, muscular man or others, largely woman, being sexualized ie Whisper, platekini, tits the size of two moons, etc.

Yes, women like sexy characters too, but they also like having a voice heard and respected when it comes to what they enjoy in games even if it varies as much as it does when it comes to men. But hey, who doesn't enjoy that?

I can't even think of a game especially in recent memory that has '' platekini '' and well-endowed women may as well be extinct at this point in Western games.
The only games I can think of with that are games like Tera where the entire artstyle revolves around it, in which case I don't see the issue games like those have a right to exist too and there's plenty of women who like them.

My issue with this is that the women whos voices are being heard and listened to are only women on one side of the argument.
The women who like this content are not being listened to and are being ignored, it'd be pretty absurd to argue like you don't have choices and games that don't '' sexualize women ''.
At this point it really comes across more like entitled babies who feel like literally every single game needs to cater to what they want when they already have almost everything.

I also think it kinda reeks of narcissism to act like some self-appointed police who gets to decide on behalf of everyone when it '' becomes a problem ''.
Like how big does a characters breasts need to be before it '' becomes a problem ''?
Who gets to decide that, you?
Who's the boob police and where do you sign up?
Who gave you that authority?
 
It's dangerous to state that a woman that looks like Abby can't be attractive.
Oh how the goalposts have moved from this:
Because it shouldn't be the norm to say that a woman with a muscled build is considered "unattractive" or looks like a man.


Unattractive.
Looks like she's mentally preparing to be misgendered.
Sue me.
Who is this character design supposed to appeal to, exactly?
Nobody cares about the game as well, past the initial review hype.
Now imagine the media buzz if it had Lady Dimitrescu or 2B in it instead.
Sure hope the butch lesbian hill was worth dying on.
 
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TheDreadBaron

Gold Member
Oh how the goalposts have moved from this:




Unattractive.
Looks like she's mentally preparing to be misgendered.
Sue me.
Who is this character design supposed to appeal to, exactly?
Nobody cares about the game as well, past the initial review hype.
Now imagine the media buzz if it had Lady Dimitrescu or 2B in it instead.
Sure hope the butch lesbian hill was worth dying on.
Really taking a hardline stance here buddy. I think choosing to make your lead character look more plain is a stylistic choice that can enhance the experience depending on what you’re going for (like a serious dark setting). I also like attractive people in games but it can break the illusion in some contexts. Surely there’s room for both?
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
Oh how the goalposts have moved from this:




Unattractive.
Looks like she's mentally preparing to be misgendered.
Sue me.
Who is this character design supposed to appeal to, exactly?
Nobody cares about the game as well, past the initial review hype.
Now imagine the media buzz if it had Lady Dimitrescu or 2B in it instead.
Sure hope the butch lesbian hill was worth dying on.

How did I move the goalposts? I'm saying literally the same thing LOL! Seems like you have a lot of hate in your heart toward a certain group of people.....

Stephen A Smith Eye Roll GIF by ESPN
 

RaySoft

Member
True story.

One of my colleagues used to go there but I remember him showing me a post that got him banned and I just laughed. It was in a topic during an E3 conference and Sarah Bond came on the stage. He ha snever seen her before so he made this exact comment "Wow Sarah Bond is a gorgeous woman" That comment there got him a banned and the reason they gave him was that he was ignoring her accomplishments.
Luckily I'm considered a dinosaur at the age of 45, but I must say that the kids growing up nowadays have my sympathy. Everything seems to be in a constant flux at the moment, so it must be hard for the young ones to latch onto something solid. We are all product of our time I guess, I'll just hope reason wins out in the end.

Have you heard about the non-disabled guy that liked to wear womens dresses and chose to sport a wheelchair to boot and demanded eveyone to see "him" as a disabled crossdresser? I kid you not, this is the insane behaviour, we as a society, are now promoting.

We can only hope this person's motivations where to seriously awake some people up from their slumber and show the extremity of todays society. If not help me god.
 
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Intoxicate

Member
I do understand that women are seeing another women as rivals. Thus I get that they feel challenged/insecure when her boyfriend/husband is looking at “hot” women in reality or depicted in video games.
I don’t feel bad when my wife is looking at attractive men, since I fully can relate to the appeal.

Even babies prefer looking at “beautiful” faces, it’s natural since it’s signaling health.
We’re still just animals, and trying to get unaffected by these natural signals feels as weird as overdoing them (Anime, Silicon… name it).
 

rofif

Gold Member
Oh how the goalposts have moved from this:




Unattractive.
Looks like she's mentally preparing to be misgendered.
Sue me.
Who is this character design supposed to appeal to, exactly?
Nobody cares about the game as well, past the initial review hype.
Now imagine the media buzz if it had Lady Dimitrescu or 2B in it instead.
Sure hope the butch lesbian hill was worth dying on.
Sometimes character don't have to appeal to nobody. Then I can feel right at home playing....
 

JayK47

Member
The downside to great graphics. Now we are intentionally making things look ugly or bland. Shit, back in my day, you had to use your imagination when looking at the 8 bit graphics you were stuck with. I used to think Rydia and Rosa were smoking hot. Look at what I had to work with!

 

Whitecrow

Gold Member
It's dangerous to state that a woman that looks like Abby can't be attractive. Or that she doesn't look like a woman. I thought I explained that earlier in the thread. And no one is stating we should have one-eyed woman as leads in a game.

People like me are saying this lead character looks fine for a mainstream video game. But many on GAF lost their minds for some odd reason. To me, they are the weirdos.

For me the weirdos are the biology negationists.
A young attractive female will always attract more players and make them invest more time in the game even if it doesnt have anything to do with the gameplay.
Is just how we work and some of us embrace that, which IMO is what's best.
 
I also like attractive people in games but it can break the illusion in some contexts.
Oh please, Illusion of what? That you're not playing a goofy bullet hell rogue-like?
I can only imagine a couple instances where this even holds true in the entire medium.
And one of them would rather fall under overdesigning rather than characters being too attractive.
Actually serious and dark games rarely go for realistic look. It's not a winning combo one might think it is.
 

TheDreadBaron

Gold Member
Oh please, Illusion of what? That you're not playing a goofy bullet hell rogue-like?
I can only imagine a couple instances where this even holds true in the entire medium.
And one of them would rather fall under overdesigning rather than characters being too attractive.
Actually serious and dark games rarely go for realistic look. It's not a winning combo one might think it is.
The illusion that there is some stakes and your character is a human and not a perfectly sculpted doll. Again there’s room for both, you’re taking the position that people couldn’t possibly prefer the less attractive model which is subjective anyway. Do you think returnal’s main character takes away from nier’s appeal? Why does a main character that is less than a 10/10 upset you? You can still have 2B.
 

MagnesG

Banned
"It's dangerous to state that a woman that looks like Abby can't be attractive. Or that she doesn't look like a woman."

Because it's true? Because it's the reality of the society and biological norm?

Keep feeding these illusion and now we got a mass crowds of unhappy old women being single and childless, only waiting to die alone miserably in the elder care center.
 
-Young fragile week minds

-Indoctrination in schools and media.

-Flags raised by people who don't know this is just a political move.

-The agenda becomes real.

-Rejection of nature itself

-Uncertainties about its nature.

-Fear to not fit.

-Bubble created, needs to fit, if not, you are insulting your own nature.

-Cancel culture, bubble preassure, you have to accept.

-Its not more your decision how to act in the society, patrols on your feet.

-From bubble to global.

-Big companies now have to follow tendencies.

WELCOME TO THE DESERT OF THE BULLSHIT.
 

rofif

Gold Member
BTW, Jessie is so underrated in FF7R, I would date her a million times over Tifa and Aerith. Her looks and personality is :messenger_heart: :messenger_heart: :messenger_heart: .
Seriously. I hope there is still hope she will be in next game... since everything is possible now
 
The illusion that there is some stakes and your character is a human and not a perfectly sculpted doll.
Then Returnal is garbage at it, with main character jumping around like Mario without breaking her legs or getting tired. Her design looks utterly out of place.
You're conflating character design with something that has bugger-all to do with it.
Limbo does a better job conveying the stakes and the fact that main character is human, while looking like this:



And since we're talking sci-fi, isn't it crazy how this female protagonist isn't ugly, but is much more human in-gameplay than Returnal's?

Do you think returnal’s main character takes away from nier’s appeal?
No, It's self-evident that Returnal's main character takes away from Returnal's appeal. I'd like to see a coherent case for the opposite. One that doesn't include faulty logic a-la "This arcadey bullet hell game is actually super grounded and realistic".
It's funny even having to explain this while, as we speak, Guilty Gear is having a surge of popularity because one of its female characters going viral. While Lady D turning a lot of heads towards RE 8 is still fresh in our memory. While also mentioning 2B, who pretty much single-handedly sold her weird-ass existential Japanese AA sci-fi game to the wider masses at full price.
Why does a main character that is less than a 10/10 upset you?
We in loaded questions-ville now?
If so, when will you stop beating your kids?
 
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BlackTron

Member
I think what bothers me most is the whole concept of game characters being involved in someone's empowerment, in any way.

If anything, the characters on screen are like puppet toys that you control. Fantasy puppets whose strings you pull. You think all the men who choose female (or alien, or bizarre) characters in games are identifying with them or internalizing them? They just want to control a puppet that looks cool, creepy, or attractive or whatever.

They don't bear the burden of "representing" you any more than the beloved Skeletor toy of my youth made me want to have empty eye sockets.

I liked when they intentionally gave Mario, and especially Link in OOT, a big nose. Yes, it was actually stated in some old interview that they made his nose bigger to make him goofier/more humble.

Oh, woe for all of those attractive people in the world, who were unable to enjoy Mario and Zelda for not being able to embody the character properly...how oppressed, they all were.
 
Then Returnal is garbage at it, with main character jumping around like Mario without breaking her legs or getting tired. Her design looks utterly out of place.
Yes, thank you.

Looking at the character design threads and all the defense of making the character a purposefully unattractive woman, I was skeptical but open to the idea. But when I saw the actual gameplay, I knew everyone was just high on their own supply.

The way the Returnal character moves is pure video games mechanics with no concern about conforming to reality. This is totally fine, but means that an arguments about the character design referring to "reality", those people are arguing about something else.

Also "biological negationist" is a good phrase.
 
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Boss Mog

Member
I'm not a fan of League of Legends, I don't really get MOBA games but I can understand in part why it has a huge following worldwide. The female characters in that game seem to almost all be somewhat attractive and even sexy: https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/champions/

And they even use that fact to promote the game:

The illusion that there is some stakes and your character is a human and not a perfectly sculpted doll. Again there’s room for both, you’re taking the position that people couldn’t possibly prefer the less attractive model which is subjective anyway. Do you think returnal’s main character takes away from nier’s appeal? Why does a main character that is less than a 10/10 upset you? You can still have 2B.
I own Nier Automata and not Returnal, go figure 🤷‍♂️. It's a stupid argument to make that people shouldn't prefer to look at attractive people. It's the case in Hollywood, fashion, etc.. so i don't see why videogames should be any different. The only reason there's a push for ugly women in games (you still don't see ugly men really) is because the game industry has become infested with woke "progressives" at all levels (devs, press, etc..) who want to use the medium to push their agenda. I really enjoyed Resogun, I played the shit out of it during the PS4's first year so I was looking forward to Housemarque's next game and the premise of Returnal looked interesting but the protag's design (a woman who looks like Bill Maher) was extremely unappealing to me and pricing was the other factor I didn't like. So I know for a fact it's a factor that can hurt sales and if I was making a game with a female lead, I would make her attractive. If devs want to make games with ugly female leads though, they have every right, but they shouldn't act surprised if sales are disappointing and nobody should try to shame gamers who don't want to spend money on such games.
 

TheDreadBaron

Gold Member
Then Returnal is garbage at it, with main character jumping around like Mario without breaking her legs or getting tired. Her design looks utterly out of place.
You're conflating character design with something that has bugger-all to do with it.
Limbo does a better job conveying the stakes and the fact that main character is human, while looking like this:



And since we're talking sci-fi, isn't it crazy how this female protagonist isn't ugly, but is much more human in-gameplay than Returnal's?


No, It's self-evident that Returnal's main character takes away from Returnal's appeal. I'd like to see a coherent case for the opposite. One that doesn't include faulty logic a-la "This arcadey bullet hell game is actually super grounded and realistic".
It's funny even having to explain this while, as we speak, Guilty Gear is having a surge of popularity because one of its female characters going viral. While Lady D turning a lot of heads towards RE 8 is still fresh in our memory. While also mentioning 2B, who pretty much single-handedly sold her weird-ass existential Japanese AA sci-fi game to the wider masses at full price.

We in loaded questions-ville now?
If so, when will you stop beating your kids?
You’re a cunt, thanks for playing
 

TheDreadBaron

Gold Member
I'm not a fan of League of Legends, I don't really get MOBA games but I can understand in part why it has a huge following worldwide. The female characters in that game seem to almost all be somewhat attractive and even sexy: https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/champions/

And they even use that fact to promote the game:


I own Nier Automata and not Returnal, go figure 🤷‍♂️. It's a stupid argument to make that people shouldn't prefer to look at attractive people. It's the case in Hollywood, fashion, etc.. so i don't see why videogames should be any different. The only reason there's a push for ugly women in games (you still don't see ugly men really) is because the game industry has become infested with woke "progressives" at all levels (devs, press, etc..) who want to use the medium to push their agenda. I really enjoyed Resogun, I played the shit out of it during the PS4's first year so I was looking forward to Housemarque's next game and the premise of Returnal looked interesting but the protag's design (a woman who looks like Bill Maher) was extremely unappealing to me and pricing was the other factor I didn't like. So I know for a fact it's a factor that can hurt sales and if I was making a game with a female lead, I would make her attractive. If devs want to make games with ugly female leads though, they have every right, but they shouldn't act surprised if sales are disappointing and nobody should try to shame gamers who don't want to spend money on such games.
Nobody said people should prefer one or the other, i just said there’s room for both. It’s baffling to me the knee jerk reaction some of you have over “ugly” characters simply existing.
 

Boss Mog

Member
Nobody said people should prefer one or the other, i just said there’s room for both. It’s baffling to me the knee jerk reaction some of you have over “ugly” characters simply existing.
I have no problem with them existing, the problem is devs complaining about people who don't like their ugly female leads when their sales aren't good, trying to call those people out and label them.
 

Flutta

My tears. Exclusive to gamepass. Forever.
I mean i have no problem with Female Characters who are not attactive in games. My issue is that they make them look like ”men”. In other words a hybrid freak that does not represent reality but instead pushing an agenda on how todays females should look and behave like.

Being attactive or not is not the issue here. But i understand why male gamers gravitate towards good looking female characters. Its only natural, people saying otherwise are living in a bubble thus they should be ignored, just for your braincells safety.
 
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TheDreadBaron

Gold Member
I mean i have no problem with Female Characters who are not attactive in games. My issue is that they make them look like ”men”. In other words a hybrid freak that does not represent reality but instead pushing an agenda on how todays females should look and behave like.

Being attactive or not is not the issue here. But i understand why male gamers gravitate towards good looking female characters. Its only natural, people saying otherwise are living in a bubble thus they should be ignored, just for your braincells safety.
I think it's like living in a bubble to think people that look like returnal's main character don't exist and don't represent reality. I never thought I'd be on this side of the argument, you can see earlier in the thread I'm praising Guilty Gear for its depiction of the human form. I don't like SJW agenda bullshit either. BUT I also like returnal's main character design, another benefit of a more plain looking person (irl or in game) is you aren't distracted by their beauty and it's easier to take them seriously. I'm with the fucking SJW's on this, some people need to be exposed to more different types of people because they get mad at the tv when the character doesn't appeal to them personally as a sex object.
 
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Flutta

My tears. Exclusive to gamepass. Forever.
I think it's like living in a bubble to think people that look like returnal's main character don't exist and don't represent reality. I never thought I'd be on this side of the argument, you can see earlier in the thread I'm praising Guilty Gear for its depiction of the human form. I don't like SJW agenda bullshit either. BUT I also like returnal's main character design, another benefit of a more plain looking person (irl or in game) is you aren't distracted by their beauty and it's easier to take them seriously. I'm with the fucking SJW's on this, some people need to be exposed to more different types of people because they get mad at the tv when the character doesn't appeal to them personally as a sex object.
First off i wasn't talking about female beauty that's subjective. What im talking about is when devs make female characters look like men on purpose. That's not what you call a "plain looking person" that's what you call "I'm confused if this is a male or female".




Be honest now, does this character look like a female to you? :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

TheDreadBaron

Gold Member
???.......so people can’t take the character “seriously” because they good looking? I’m not getting the logic behind that.
I'm speaking for myself. If a character looks totally flawless like a doll it's harder for me to take them seriously. That's just how my brain works, there's also beautiful characters that are well written. The only reason I mention it is because some people have been trying to argue no one could possible prefer a less attractive character. Well some people do sometimes for some reasons, there's one right there.
 

TheDreadBaron

Gold Member
First off i wasn't talking about female beauty that's subjective. What im talking about is when devs make female characters look like men on purpose. That's not what you call a "plain looking person" that's what you call "I'm confused if this is a male or female".




Be honest now, does this character look like a female to you? :messenger_tears_of_joy:
I mean it does read as a female to me. There's definitely some more masculine features. People that look like that exist, not everyone is a supermodel. I think they deserve to exist in games too. To me she looks like a hardened astronaut, I haven't played the game but that's the message I'm getting from the design. I'm not seeing a problem, unless the game has a popup that says if you misgender this character you're a misogynist.
 

Flutta

My tears. Exclusive to gamepass. Forever.
I mean it does read as a female to me. There's definitely some more masculine features. People that look like that exist, not everyone is a supermodel. I think they deserve to exist in games too. To me she looks like a hardened astronaut, I haven't played the game but that's the message I'm getting from the design. I'm not seeing a problem, unless the game has a popup that says if you misgender this character you're a misogynist.

To me it seems like you're making all kinds of excuses to normalize this type of physical appearance to females. Not sure what your aim is but in the real world outside for most women that's not the norm. It never has been and it never will, even if there are some women irl who choose to look like men.
 
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