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[momolicious]

I know that basically all LCD tvs still have some kind of ghosting so i wouldnt be interested in any of those. How are Plasma and CRT? is Plasma just as good as CRTs with no ghosting. How can you tell if a television is good without ghosting

 

[Az987]

Im pretty sure my LCD (Samsung LNR328W) doesnt have any ghosting or if it does I have never noticed and im a really anal person who notices the smallest things wrong with everything.

 

[Shompola]

An LCD tv has problems switching pixels from black to gray and vice versa, and also from white to a lesser white looking color. It is more apparant to the eye if it switches from black to gray and vice versa. If you want to check out ghosting on an lcd tv, check scenes where black is the dominating color.

 

[Kewk]

You should be asking which TV's are known to have ghosting, as it really is not very common. It does happen on some TV's but it is a small precentage.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Ghosting is a bi-product of slow pixel response time. You can cop LCD's for a decent price w/ an 8ms response time.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

CRT is the only tech where this wont happen. It is also the cheapest and produces the sharpest picture. It is unfortunately the largest size sets out there, highest weight, and highest maintenence. But if you are willing to put up with that and save lots of money, CRT is the way to go.

 

[WindyMan]

CRT is the only tech where this wont happen. It is also the cheapest and produces the sharpest picture. It is unfortunately the largest size sets out there, highest weight, and highest maintenence. But if you are willing to put up with that and save lots of money, CRT is the way to go.

Yeah, when I was looking at HDTVs, I knew right away I wanted a CRT. The picture on LCDs look good, but they cannot look as good as a nice HD CRT because of the difference in technology.

A have a 32" set, but it sucks because it weighs a ton. I am not looking forward to moving it when I move.

 

[dark10x]

You should be asking which TV's are known to have ghosting, as it really is not very common. It does happen on some TV's but it is a small precentage.

Uhh, wrong?

I've yet to experience an LCD that doesn't feature some sort of ghosting. Obviously, we've come a LOOOOOONG way and the ghosting is often minimal enough that average users won't notice it...but it does bother me (as Shomp said, it is at its worst when there are high contrasts...particularly black combined with any lighter colors). What's much worse, however, are the shit black levels. LCDs are physically "lit" displays, so they are always glowing. I enjoy playing in dark rooms, and LCDs perform very poorly in those situations.

I still prefer CRTs for gaming, as they produce the most vivid colors with NO ghosting and virtually perfect blacks. However, they have their own set of flaws (which I can live with).

I was REALLY impressed with the plasma displays used in the XBOX Lounge here in Tokyo, though. Pioneers, I believe. I've seen recent ads for them all around the train stations pushing "rich blacks" and everything, but I've yet to view one in a dark area. Still, the image was super sharp and free of ghosting (OK, there was some *VERY* slight ghosting, but it was lower than your average LCD). These Pioneers were much larger than the Samsung LCD panels being used on the smaller kiosks...but were a hell of a lot sharper looking. A massive difference (both in quality...and price).

It's going to be tough figuring out which HDTV to go for when I decide to upgrade in size. I love CRTs so much, but they are limited to 34" max (for 16:9) and are really f*cking huge. That Pioneer was amazing looking at 720p, but I'm uncertain how 480p (or lower) material would look nor am I truly familiar with its other potential downfalls. I've heard that burn-in is no longer a huge problem with Plasmas, but I'm not positive.

The picture on LCDs look good, but they cannot look as good as a nice HD CRT because of the difference in technology.

It's a shame they screw over CRTs in the store. They always hook up low quality feeds via coax cable while the flat panels all receive full HD signals. A properly tuned CRT can look absolutely amazing. The richness of the picture beats everything, even if the resolution isn't as high.

 

[Chrono]

Somewhat OT - anybody knows what's the latest on those carbon nanotubes TVs?

 

[Mashing]

An LCD tv has problems switching pixels from black to gray and vice versa, and also from white to a lesser white looking color. It is more apparant to the eye if it switches from black to gray and vice versa. If you want to check out ghosting on an lcd tv, check scenes where black is the dominating color.

Another words put in the Batman DVD and let that make up your mind for you.

 

[Sinatar]

LCD's with a response time of 16 ms or less will have little to no ghosting.

 

[Project Midway]

And you have to take note that it varies how response time is measured, some manufacturers report it from gray-to-gray...

Response time is defined as the time required for an LCD pixel to change from fully active (black) to fully inactive (white), then back to fully active again. Many manufacturers, on the other hand, report their LCDs' gray-to-gray response times. Pixels are rarely completely on or off--instead they cycle between gray states, that is colors--and, in general, switching between gray states is much slower than switching between black and white. However, some also argue that measuring gray-to-gray response time is pointless, since the manufacturers rarely tell where in the cycle they start and end their measurements. To alleviate this confusion, the Video Electronics Standards Association (VESA) plans to introduce a spec standardizing response time measurement sometime in 2006.

http://netscape.com.com/4520-3118_7-6358806.html

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

LCD's with a response time of 16 ms or less will have little to no ghosting.

This is just not true.

I mean, yes, 16 < 24, but 16 is still a lot.

I have an 8ms LCD, and it's still too much. I output a perfect 60fps UT2k4 onto an 8ms LCD and CRT at once, and the LCD looks like it has a lower frame rate.

To be fully upfront, the test I use is to have the viewpoint spin in a circle in a largish area, and I use keys for turning so the rotation is perfectly smooth and even. This may be considered too harsh a test, since this is not what you would be actually doing while playing, but the difference is unmistakable to even to laymen and casuals to whom I've demonstrated this to.

When I first got the LCD monitor, I booted up Doom3 and UT2k4 right away and just tooled around with them. I noticed the ghosting immedietly, but I was looking for it.

 

[mrklaw]

An LCD tv has problems switching pixels from black to gray and vice versa, and also from white to a lesser white looking color. It is more apparant to the eye if it switches from black to gray and vice versa. If you want to check out ghosting on an lcd tv, check scenes where black is the dominating color.

yes, but better response rates and good driver electronics can minimise this to a point where you don't notice it (or it doesn't bother you)


CRTs may not have *this* problem, but as analog scanning devices, they will have limitations on switching adjacent pixels that are very different in brightness. Plus they can have geometry problems, convergence issues, issues with large white areas

No display technology is without its issues.

Yes, I have an LCD. Yes I prefer them. Yes I realise that CRTs have their benefits. No I don't like people picking fault in a vacuum

 

[Sho Nuff]

The curse of being a videophile

 

[Deg]

Plasma > *

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

The curse of being a videophile

Better than being an audiophile by a fuck-ton.

You'd start trolling iPod threads or sumpin'.

 

[ourumov]

I laugh a lot when reading this...Since the beginning of the HDTV era, if you are a videophile and live in Europe then you are screwed. Stupid ONLY-LCD policy...

 

[Shogmaster]

I laugh a lot when reading this...Since the beginning of the HDTV era, if you are a videophile and live in Europe then you are screwed. Stupid ONLY-LCD policy...

I thought Blim Blim bought a DLP.

 

[Ryudo]

I am yet to see an LCD that doesnt ghost, even the new sony bravias do it. Not only that but i am yet to see a plasma or LCD scale a picture as well as a crt can. I guess thats the nature of a fixed pixel technology.

CRT's may be big and bulky but they are the best picture you can currently get, that is until SEDTV comes around the middle of next year.

 

[Xellotah]

I laugh a lot when reading this...Since the beginning of the HDTV era, if you are a videophile and live in Europe then you are screwed. Stupid ONLY-LCD policy...

?

There are plasma screens in Europe .. bit expensive tho.

 

[Ranger X]

The thing to look for when you buy the LCD is to know about it's refresh rate.
At 12 ms most people won't be bothered by the ghosting that will be minimal.
At 8 ms you really are TEH picky if you see ghosting, it's next to none, i wonder if i see ghosting at all. 8 ms rules for ghosting. The only thing LCDs needs to master now is color display. Constrast and colors aren't as good as CRT even with the best LCD out there.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Novice HDTV question, its probably been asked in every thread but Im lazy bones...why are 720p CRTs so rare?

 

[antipode]

Don't trust what the manufacturer says in the response time for an LCD. An independent site like Tom's Hardware will measure it directly over the entire brightness scale and you can see where it dips above or below the claimed latency. No two monitors that are claimed to be 8 ms respond the same.

Some examples:
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20051104/19_inch_lcd_monitor_roundup-18.html
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20050928/lcd_tv-06.html
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20050928/lcd_tv-12.html

You can now find a few monitors and TVs where the response time is always below 16ms - the point where objectively ghosting does not exist with a 60Hz signal. I think if you follow those manufacturers into the next year you'll do good.

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

what is ghosting?

 

[robertsan21]

what is ghosting?

when an objekt moves fast and you can see traces following him on the screen, thats called Ghosting

 

[mrklaw]

I am yet to see an LCD that doesnt ghost, even the new sony bravias do it. Not only that but i am yet to see a plasma or LCD scale a picture as well as a crt can. I guess thats the nature of a fixed pixel technology.

CRT's may be big and bulky but they are the best picture you can currently get, that is until SEDTV comes around the middle of next year.

horses for courses.

I am yet to see a CRT that doesn't flicker. I am yet to see a CRT with perfect geometry. I am yet to see a CRT that can do 720p natively.

I can see why they have advocates, but so do LCDs and plasmas.

 

[Myoclonic Jerk]

when an objekt moves fast and you can see traces following him on the screen, thats called Ghosting

eewww.. that happens with LCD/Plasma only?

 

[dark10x]

How are the black levels on Plasmas, by the way? That really is my main complaint with LCDs, at this point. It renders them virtually useless in a dark environment.

 

[acidviper]

what is ghosting?

Do enough drugs and they all ghost

 

[mrklaw]

How are the black levels on Plasmas, by the way? That really is my main complaint with LCDs, at this point. It renders them virtually useless in a dark environment.

much better than LCD. The only issues with plasmas are burn-in (probably not an issue if you look after your screen, but I couldn't get over it), and HD versions can be more expensive, although prices are coming down.

Although have a bias light on with LCD (i.e never watch in a completely dark room, which is bad for your eyes anyway), and black levels are much less of an issue.

 

[Shompola]

Is it true that you cant lay down a plasma or it will get damaged? I read about that they most allways stand.

 

[Ryudo]

horses for courses.

I am yet to see a CRT that doesn't flicker. I am yet to see a CRT with perfect geometry. I am yet to see a CRT that can do 720p natively.

I can see why they have advocates, but so do LCDs and plasmas.

Look harder then

Also CRT's dont do any one resolution natively, they arent fixed pixel displays and as such do any resolution they are capable of "natively".

 

[Error Macro]

Plasmas still do not have the black levels of CRT, plus they suffer from other problems such as solarization (false contouring).

 

[dark10x]

Plasmas still do not have the black levels of CRT, plus they suffer from other problems such as solarization (false contouring).

Eh? Explain...

I never truly gave them much thought, but now I'm kind of curious after seeing that amazing Pioneer...

 

[ziran]

thanks for the info, buying a new tv is a minefield...

so what's the best thing to get?

crt and put up with bad geometry or an lcd and have ghosting? or buy a plasma?

what are the issues with plasma?

does anyone know what happens when a tv reaches it's hour limit, like 60,000 display hours?

 

[mrklaw]

thanks for the info, buying a new tv is a minefield...

so what's the best thing to get?

crt and put up with bad geometry or an lcd and have ghosting? or buy a plasma?

what are the issues with plasma?

does anyone know what happens when a tv reaches it's hour limit, like 60,000 display hours?

Go and use your own eyes in a store with relatively well setup sets.

Truth is, if you pick a *good* LCD/DLP/Plasma/CRT, you'll be happy. Most of the arguments here (and over at AV forums) is nitpicking over slight percentages of performance one way or another.

*WAY* more important is what looks good to you. Do you notice CRT geometry errors? do you get the dreaded DLP rainbow effect? Do LCD blacks / ghosting look shit or not?

 

[ziran]

Go and use your own eyes in a store with relatively well setup sets.

Truth is, if you pick a *good* LCD/DLP/Plasma/CRT, you'll be happy. Most of the arguments here (and over at AV forums) is nitpicking over slight percentages of performance one way or another.

*WAY* more important is what looks good to you. Do you notice CRT geometry errors? do you get the dreaded DLP rainbow effect? Do LCD blacks / ghosting look shit or not?

thanks.

i'll check out some tvs in store and decide.

 

[AndreasNystrom]

CRT is the only tech where this wont happen. It is also the cheapest and produces the sharpest picture. It is unfortunately the largest size sets out there, highest weight, and highest maintenence. But if you are willing to put up with that and save lots of money, CRT is the way to go.

Yes nowdays. But before when some computers had very flickery interlace-output (like the hires on the Amiga), you could buy CRT with slow fosfor, that was making the flickery output very stable.
The only drawback was when something moved on the screen, there was serious ghosting (like 0.5+ sec)

 

[Deg]

Plasmas still do not have the black levels of CRT, plus they suffer from other problems such as solarization (false contouring).

Plasma black levels are nearly on par with CRT now. Much better than any other tv in this area. Plasma dont have response rate issue slike LCD. Biggest con is they cost alot more but they are larger sized.

As always just get what you like. Its pretty sunjective at the end of the day.

 

[dark10x]

Plasma black levels are nearly on par with CRT now. Much better than any other tv in this area. Plasma dont have response rate issue slike LCD. Biggest con is they cost alot more but they are larger sized.

As always just get what you like. Its pretty sunjective at the end of the day.

How's the scaling?

As I said above, that Pioneer plasma display in the 360 lounge really impressed me and delivered an image I could totally go for. I've seen those ads around the trains pimping the richness of the blacks as well, so I figured they were getting somewhere there.

However, I'm concerned about image scaling. How well do these things handle lower resolution sources?

 

[Oni Jazar]

I'm so glad that ghosting is such a non-issue to me. I love GTA:LCS even though running Tony around in black pants makes him look like a loony-tunes character it's no big deal at all.