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When we will see most of PS4 first-party games running at 4k 60fps in PS5? Maybe never

Feb 3, 2020
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The fact is, PS5 BC mode is very good, could run PS4 Pro games at their maximum dynamic resolution/fps limits all the time.


But, PS5 BC is hardware-based, and it's locked to PS4 Pro settings and modes. Xbox Series X|S has a different approach with their gen9aware, and higher layer abstraction with DirectX. In practice, Xbox Series X|S could run Xbox One source code with exclusive presets like 120fps in Rocket League, or quality mode with more NPCs like Cyberpunk. PS5 can't do it, lower level abstraction, closer to metal.

So, the point is, how could Ps4 Pro games have PS5 patches without harm PS4 Pro versions? For example, The Last of Us part 2 in PS4 Pro running at 1440p 30fps. They can make a patch to unlock fps, and use dynamic resolution (DRS). But further the gap the 2 resolutions are, the less precision you will get. So, it's not easy to have good precision in DRS between 1440p and 4k in a older hardware like PS4 Pro. Remember, PS5 must run in Ps4 Pro settings, and that's the problem.

Many people talk about Days Gone patch, and it's a good example, because this game run at maximum 4k DRS since their release in 2019: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-days-gone-ps4-and-ps4-pro-tech-analysis . PS5 just mantain the game near 4k all the time.

Alternatives? Maybe some games should be ported to PS5, like Spiderman Remastered. But, probably won't be free, and will be few selected games.
 

Hostile_18

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Theoretically what couldn't PS5 run a game with higher presets like crowd density/res etc? Surely it would just be a back end setting of if this hardware detected this setting used. It would just need to be coded in in the form of a patch?
 

Concern

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Edit: Misread the op.

This is on a game by game basis. Games require a patch to be upgraded. So I don't every single one will get it.

Bloodborne for example, never even got an update for the Ps4 Pro. So I don't see this going any different.
 
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As far as I know the game has to have PS5 support built in for it to use the PS5 boost mode, which Sony only called for during 2020 I think - that's why we have a PS5 only 60fps mode on GOT at launch but nothing much else on first party games from the years prior unless patched
 

leo-j

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Yea they just need to patch the games, but tbh I’d expect them to release remastered versions like spidey in 4K with upgraded assets.
 
Feb 3, 2020
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Theoretically what couldn't PS5 run a game with higher presets like crowd density/res etc? Surely it would just be a back end setting of if this hardware detected this setting used. It would just need to be coded in in the form of a patch?
There are some PS4 games with unlocked frame-rate in PS5 and capped on 30fps in PS4 Pro: Days Gone, Ghost of Tsushima and others. Probably these games are using the PS5 boost mode, i.e, running in PS5 GPU and CPU clocks.

But other settings like resolution, draw distance, ambient oclusion, textures are the same in PS5 and PS4 Pro. Maybe frame-rate is the easiest thing to switch between consoles, something like: maximumFps = (console=='PS5'?60:30); Maybe other changes could be done, but with more hard code. In Xbox the DirectX abstracts the Xone and XSeries low-level code.
 
Feb 3, 2020
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There are some PS4 games with unlocked frame-rate in PS5 and capped on 30fps in PS4 Pro: Days Gone, Ghost of Tsushima and others. Probably these games are using the PS5 boost mode, i.e, running in PS5 GPU and CPU clocks.

But other settings like resolution, draw distance, ambient oclusion, textures are the same in PS5 and PS4 Pro. Maybe frame-rate is the easiest thing to switch between consoles, something like: maximumFps = (console=='PS5'?60:30); Maybe other changes could be done, but with more hard code. In Xbox the DirectX abstracts the Xone and XSeries low-level code.
Any thoughts geordiemp geordiemp NXGamer NXGamer ?
 
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AeneaGames

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The fact is, PS5 BC mode is very good, could run PS4 Pro games at their maximum dynamic resolution/fps limits all the time.


But, PS5 BC is hardware-based, and it's locked to PS4 Pro settings and modes. Xbox Series X|S has a different approach with their gen9aware, and higher layer abstraction with DirectX. In practice, Xbox Series X|S could run Xbox One source code with exclusive presets like 120fps in Rocket League, or quality mode with more NPCs like Cyberpunk. PS5 can't do it, lower level abstraction, closer to metal.

So, the point is, how could Ps4 Pro games have PS5 patches without harm PS4 Pro versions? For example, The Last of Us part 2 in PS4 Pro running at 1440p 30fps. They can make a patch to unlock fps, and use dynamic resolution (DRS). But further the gap the 2 resolutions are, the less precision you will get. So, it's not easy to have good precision in DRS between 1440p and 4k in a older hardware like PS4 Pro. Remember, PS5 must run in Ps4 Pro settings, and that's the problem.

Many people talk about Days Gone patch, and it's a good example, because this game run at maximum 4k DRS since their release in 2019: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-days-gone-ps4-and-ps4-pro-tech-analysis . PS5 just mantain the game near 4k all the time.

Alternatives? Maybe some games should be ported to PS5, like Spiderman Remastered. But, probably won't be free, and will be few selected games.

The PS5 also has a gen9aware type function, but it limits more what a dev can do in BC mode. For instance the game is not allowed to use any features the PS4 (Pro) did not have. This means no 120fps but also means the game can't use more RAM either! So when a PS4 game detects it is running on a PS5 it can unlock frame rates, change the locked frame rate from 30 to 60 and add additional settings for it.

We already knew about the 120fps thing but recently I heard from an indie dev that it also restricts the amount of addressable memory. It makes sense really since a game might break when it sees more all of a sudden (which means it's either a badly written game or one that's optimised to the hilt when it breaks on this, but still).
The indie dev had released a PS5 patch which ran in BC mode and they could change several things but not change display resolution nor improve the draw distance since that would require more memory than the PS4 has.
The reason they didn't 'simply' push out a proper PS5 patch was because it means more work and going thru the tedious testing process again since its seen by Sony as something new instead of a small patch for a previously released game.
They will surely do this in the future but due to time constraints it won't be soon.

Long story short:
I do believe Sony can improve BC and lift these restrictions in BC mode. Tho I would not be surprised they rather want devs to do a proper PS5 version but since Sony's own devs haven't done that yet they might change this to make it easier for their own devs and others..
 
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TonyK

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Uncharted 4, The Last of Us 2 and God of War at least. Please.

And Bloodborne. Nah, joking, I think there are the same possibilities of seeing the game released in Xbox than to have a patch for 4k 60fps with frame pacing addressed.
 
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It's probably a bit complex but as I understand it:

OG PS4 games without PRO patches: run at base PS4 clock speeds and GPU CU count (which is enough to run games like Killzone:SF & Infamous Second son at 60fps when they have an unlocked mode)-- somehow that does not seem to help Bloodborne at all, which does not meet my expectations, as I don't understand why (I wish someone could tell me).

PS4 PRO enabled games: They run at PS4 Pro clock speeds + GPU CU count (which is enough to run God of War and many others that offer a "performance" mode at 60fps).

Some older games got a PS5 version / patch, so they get more details, better frame rates, and loading times... they are using the full machine (but probably not pushing it much, hence the "they are not true next gen games").


TL:DR: the PS5 has different performance/compatibility profiles depending on the version of the game it runs.
 

yurinka

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Like Series X, PS5 runs natively the BC games. This means devs can release PS5 versions of the games with only a few tweaks and additions. That would work and would take advantage of stuff like faster loading speed than in the BC mode without doing anything.

The difference is that unlike in Xbox, in PS5 BC mode is for BC and the PS5 specfic code is only for PS5 native games. And if they re-release a PS4 as PS5 native game, they also have to support some extra mandatory stuff like DualSense support and Activities support, etc. And then on top of that can implement the PS5 specific extras they may want like 4K 60fps support.

It is relatively easy, but requires work, time and money to implement, test and certificate all this. Normally they would charge for this job but today basically everybody who does this crossgen port they give it away for free, but some teams may consider it isn't profitable for them unless the work is for a game they are releasing now.

It's also very likely that they need to update the game engine of the game to a newer version to support PS5 and doing that causes some issues and requires some extra coding, increasing the coding and testing budget more. The older the game is, the bigger are the differences and issues raised updating the engine, and this is when the engine already has PS5 support. And well, devs also may also be too busy with upcoming games.

TLDR: it can be done but they won't do it for old games because they may consider it isn't profitable because most people are fine with the current PS4 BC and this game sales wouldn't increase because it has a 4K or 60fps patch, at least not enough to make that extra work profitable.
 
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The indie dev had released a PS5 patch which ran in BC mode and they could change several things but not change display resolution nor improve the draw distance since that would require more memory than the PS4 has.
The reason they didn't 'simply' push out a proper PS5 patch was because it means more work and going thru the tedious testing process again since its seen by Sony as something new instead of a small patch for a previously released game.
They will surely do this in the future but due to time constraints it won't be soon.
Hmmm interesting. PS4 Pro has much lower RAM than Xbox One X. So, maybe it's more difficult to address more dynamic resolution to some games in PS4 Pro.

Do you have this indie dev talk?
 
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Like Series X, PS5 runs natively the BC games. This means devs can release PS5 versions of the games with only a few tweaks and additions. That would work and would take advantage of stuff like faster loading speed than in the BC mode without doing anything.

The difference is that unlike in Xbox, in PS5 BC mode is for BC and the PS5 specfic code is only for PS5 native games. And if they re-release a PS4 as PS5 native game, they also have to support some extra mandatory stuff like DualSense support and Activities support, etc. And then on top of that can implement the PS5 specific extras they may want like 4K 60fps support.

It is relatively easy, but requires work, time and money to implement, test and certificate all this. Normally they would charge for this job but today basically everybody who does this crossgen port they give it away for free, but some teams may consider it isn't profitable for them unless the work is for a game they are releasing now.

It's also very likely that they need to update the game engine of the game to a newer version to support PS5 and doing that causes some issues and requires some extra coding, increasing the coding and testing budget more. The older the game is, the bigger are the differences and issues raised updating the engine, and this is when the engine already has PS5 support. And well, devs also may also be too busy with upcoming games.

TLDR: it can be done but they won't do it for old games because they may consider it isn't profitable because most people are fine with the current PS4 BC and this game sales wouldn't increase because it has a 4K or 60fps patch, at least not enough to make that extra work profitable.

I agree, but my point is not about port PS4 games to PS5, but PS5 running PS4 Pro games in BC mode.

For example, Ghost of Tsushima had a patch, running at 60fps 1800p in PS5 boost mode and 30fps 1800p in PS4 Pro. Why could not put this game in native 4k or better filtering on PS5 in BC boost mode? Probably its possible, but much more harder to do than Xbox gen9aware.

Cyberpunk is another great example. In gen9aware BC mode, Xbox Series X version could have some better settings and exclusive game mode. In PS5 boost BC mode, its only has more FPS than PS4 Pro.
 
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AeneaGames

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Hmmm interesting. PS4 Pro has much lower RAM than Xbox One X. So, maybe it's more difficult to address more dynamic resolution to some games in PS4 Pro.

Do you have this indie dev talk?

Well no, it was in a pm on their forum and I had asked if they were going to release a full blown ps5 version after releasing a version that supported 60fps on PS5 and he replied with this.

Does make sense tho that sony restricts it by default to not break games but they can probably still allow it when a dev explicitly turns it on.
 

yurinka

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I agree, but my point is not about port PS4 games to PS5, but PS5 running PS4 Pro games in BC mode.

For example, Ghost of Tsushima had a patch, running at 60fps 1800p in PS5 boost mode and 30fps 1800p in PS4 Pro. Why could not put this game in native 4k or better filtering on PS5 in BC boost mode? Probably its possible, but much more harder to do than Xbox gen9aware.

Cyberpunk is another great example. In gen9aware BC mode, Xbox Series X version could have some better settings and exclusive game mode. In PS5 boost BC mode, its only has more FPS than PS4 Pro.
They put the limit on 1800p in Tsushima very likely was because going beyond that in PS5 wouldn't achive 60fps and in Pro wouldn't achieve 30fps. Not all games can achieve at 4K 60fps in BC mode.

Better filtering isn't something from the game, is something the Xbox 'emulator' does. Sony could have implemented it for their BC, as they applied some filter antialiasing to the PS2 BC in PS3.

I can't believe that every Sony's first games aren't updated to run at least 4k60.
I can't believe someone expects that a company would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in something that very likely won't be profitable and pretty likely isn't technically possible for several games.

Btw, why Sony and not Microsoft or all the 3rd parties?
 
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Better filtering isn't something from the game, is something the Xbox 'emulator' does. Sony could have implemented it for their BC, as they applied some filter antialiasing to the PS2 BC in PS3.
Nice answer, thanks.


But about filtering, i wasn't too clear. Let me clarifty. I'm talking about better settings in general. For example, in Cyberpunk, the Xbox Series X|S has more NPCs than all other versions. Better ambient oclusion too. And Xbox Series is running in BC gen9aware mode. It's clear for me that Xbox Series can has some exclusive settings, even in BC mode. In PS5 the history seems different, it's more linked to PS4 Pro.
 

Salmon Snake

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I can't believe someone expects that a company would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in something that very likely won't be profitable and pretty likely isn't technically possible for several games.

Btw, why Sony and not Microsoft or all the 3rd parties?
Because I don't play on Xbox. So that's why wasn't talking about them.

Considering how good Xbox does this and they have the Gamepass I would like Sony to counter it with updating it's first party games to play better on PS5. PS Now is not good enough.
 

yurinka

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Because I don't play on Xbox. So that's why wasn't talking about them.

Considering how good Xbox does this and they have the Gamepass I would like Sony to counter it with updating it's first party games to play better on PS5. PS Now is not good enough.
Sony doesn't need to counter anything because they already has a way more successful, profitable business selling consoles, services (as PS Plus and PS Now) and games and most people are ok with the current PS5 BC.

Btw, there are a ton of Xbox BC (including MS games) that don't run 4K 60fps on XSX or XSS and PS5 doesn't add the extra filtering to BC but its improvements over PS4 Pro (cutting % of loading times, etc) are bigger proportionally than what XSX and XSS do compared to XB1X. The end results of BC in XSX vs PS5 several cases are better in Xbox because the difference in the XB1X vs PS4 Pro was way bigger because XB1X was way more powerful than PS4 Pro (as base PS4 was more powerful than in base XBO/XB1S, so there are many cases where these games without Pro/XB1X patch are better on PS5).

PS Now needs improvements and they said are working (we should get a next gen update with better compression, resolution, input lag, PS5 games and very likely an additional -Stadia like- business model to allow streaming of launch games) and in the recent months we started to see results: they already improved PSN speeds, introduced PS5 dedicated hardware to increase speed and reduce latency/input lag like Bluetooth 5.1 for the pad, wifi 6 and the new decompression chip, did open it in more countries, reduced price and started to introduce newer -but not launch- games), but it already has a way bigger catalog -even if you only count downloadable games- than Game Pass and xCloud.

Everything has pros and cons.

Nice answer, thanks.


But about filtering, i wasn't too clear. Let me clarifty. I'm talking about better settings in general. For example, in Cyberpunk, the Xbox Series X|S has more NPCs than all other versions. Better ambient oclusion too. And Xbox Series is running in BC gen9aware mode. It's clear for me that Xbox Series can has some exclusive settings, even in BC mode. In PS5 the history seems different, it's more linked to PS4 Pro.
To have next gen only specific code, settings, effects, etc. isn't BC, it's native next gen stuff. The thing is that unlike in Xbox, PS5 has new next gen only mandatory stuff like DualSense features support, Activities support, etc. so when they release a PS5 version of the game they also must include all these extra things and maybe they didn't have time to make them now.

They could have implemented these Cyberpunk features on PS5 as a native PS5 version of the game, but I assume they already are busy finishing the game fixing bugs (specially in the old gen versions of the game), optimizating and implementing pending stuff. And since they didn't have to do everything for launch, they decided to focus on the console where they had signed the marketing stuff.

I assume they will be fixing stuff until march or so focusing on old gen stuff, and then will shift their focus to the next gen native versions of the game where I assume they will also implement additional stuff like raytracing. And well, all these things that now for consoles only have been included in the XSX version will be on the PS5 native too.
 
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Edgelord79

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I can't believe that every Sony's first games aren't updated to run at least 4k60.
It's either make a new game or go back and redo older ones. From what I understand, PS5 backward compatibility is not as simple as the Xbox solution and often requires quite a bit of work and isn't just a matter of changing a bit of text in a file.

I don't think Sony has money to burn on BC either like Microsoft. It has to make sense for them.
 
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I don't think Sony has money to burn on BC either like Microsoft. It has to make sense for them.
The way compatibility with PS4/PRO is handled seems to be the result of a different approach more than anything else.

that being said, I would have appreciated it more if at least their 1st party games of this gen all were patched to at least offer an "unlocked mode" or just get to automatically be unlocked when they are run on a PS5 (pretty sure most if not all current gen games would be pretty close to locked 60, which would be great). No need to patch in higher resolutions, but it would be nice to have that too.
 

Edgelord79

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The way compatibility with PS4/PRO is handled seems to be the result of a different approach more than anything else.

that being said, I would have appreciated it more if at least their 1st party games of this gen all were patched to at least offer an "unlocked mode" or just get to automatically be unlocked when they are run on a PS5 (pretty sure most if not all current gen games would be pretty close to locked 60, which would be great). No need to patch in higher resolutions, but it would be nice to have that too.
As stated above, it has to make sense for Sony financially. If there will be minimal extra sales, then it probably isn't worth the headaches for some of these games, especially if code needs to be rewritten. What we appreciate isn't something they care about.

I suspect Bloodborne will get a 60 fps patch for the PS5 once the PC version releases as that one seems to be especially problematic as the frame rate is tied to so many other components.

I also think it's likely that The Last of Us 2 gets a 60 fps mode eventually as well. Again, it's more development cost.

I don't see others doing it though.
 
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I also think it's likely that The Last of Us 2 gets a 60 fps mode eventually as well. Again, it's more development cost.
ND would have shipped it already, the game was released not that long before the cut off date for PS5 support (around the time ghost of Tsushima shipped).

It's just annoying to me, this and all the ges that were patched out of their unlocked mode.
 

Tmack

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The way compatibility with PS4/PRO is handled seems to be the result of a different approach more than anything else.

that being said, I would have appreciated it more if at least their 1st party games of this gen all were patched to at least offer an "unlocked mode" or just get to automatically be unlocked when they are run on a PS5 (pretty sure most if not all current gen games would be pretty close to locked 60, which would be great). No need to patch in higher resolutions, but it would be nice to have that too.

Mass unlock 60 fps, mos likely, can be easely done.

Maybe Sony is reluctant in doing that because they don`t want to jump so early in the 60 fps band wagon and mid/late gen see people used to it and rejecting games at 30 fps that might be needed.
 

vkbest

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Mass unlock 60 fps, mos likely, can be easely done.

Maybe Sony is reluctant in doing that because they don`t want to jump so early in the 60 fps band wagon and mid/late gen see people used to it and rejecting games at 30 fps that might be needed.

Much people already are rejecting 30fps games after playing at 60fps every title on last months.
 
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RPSleon

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I started rdr2 up on my ps5 and there was horrible screen tearing. I always though tearing was a hardware limitation thing. Thought the extra power would stop that atleast. Some remember it happening on my base ps4.
 

Tmack

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Much people already are rejecting 30fps games after playing at 60fps every title on last months.

Exactly.

Maybe that`s why Sony is trying to control how things turn out because they might not be sure if the ps5 will be able to hold 60 fps mid-late gen.
 

Orpheum

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Mass unlock 60 fps, mos likely, can be easely done.

Maybe Sony is reluctant in doing that because they don`t want to jump so early in the 60 fps band wagon and mid/late gen see people used to it and rejecting games at 30 fps that might be needed.

I don't think so. The average consumer doesn't really give a shit if it's 30fps or 60fps. My friend for example thought that TloU2 ran at 60fps xD

I think it's tied to money...simple as that. Why waste money on the time and resources it takes to patch a game up when there's nothing to gain from it in the companies eyes? If anything paid remasters for their blockbusters wil be a thing i suppose. The Last of Us would have been patched by now if you ask me but in this specific case a lot of people will probably take out their wallets once again.

The same counts for games like Bloodborne. If anything the game will get a paid remaster and even that i highly doubt... why waste resources to patch a game that's almost 6 years old. As much as i'd like to see it, it ain't gonna happen.
 

scydrex

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I think we will never see most of the first party at 4k 60fps. Look at God of War... still there is not a patch or haven´t said there will be one. One of the best game on PS4 and no 60fps. Of course you have de disc version it will run at 60fps but the digital no. That applies to other first party games and no patch or anything. Where is the Death Stranding 4k 60fps and Dualsense support?
 

StateofMajora

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Be nice if they patched killzone shadow fall to native 4K. Until dawn and Uc4 would be good as well. Maybe unlock ratchet and clank to and uncharted to 60fps?

Drive club would be the dream patch but would never happen. Can you imagine that game at 4k60 :messenger_savoring:

obviously blood borne at 60fps with a chromatic aberration toggle so I can actually play the game.

Then theres the unpatched disc stuff like last guardian, be nice if you could have the patches and 60fps at once.
 
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Jibran#one

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The last of us keeps getting awards but not a 60 fps patch , got and days gone having a 6p fps patch and the last of us doesn't is just pure laziness at this point , unless they will do some stupid ultimate edition buy the game again for 60 fps stuff
 

Rudius

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4K is overrated, but nice to have. 60fps tough is game changing. I just finished Ghost of Tsushima on PS5 (1800p checkerboarded, 60fps) and I'm glad I waited.
 
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Exactly.

Maybe that`s why Sony is trying to control how things turn out because they might not be sure if the ps5 will be able to hold 60 fps mid-late gen.

lol twisted fanboy logic.
Mass unlock 60 fps, mos likely, can be easely done.

Maybe Sony is reluctant in doing that because they don`t want to jump so early in the 60 fps band wagon and mid/late gen see people used to it and rejecting games at 30 fps that might be needed.
Flip a switch to get 60 FPS on all last gen games? I thought posters here at least had a basic grasp on how games development works.

Also Sony can easily release a PS5 Pro model later in the console lifetime if needed, just as easily as MS can offer a watered down Series S sku.
 
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Moogle11

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Probably only for smaller titles. The first party AAA cinematic, story-driven games will probably focus more on resolution, ray tracing and graphical bells and whistles. Maybe toss in some user options like Miles Morales, but I imagine that will be less common for next gen exclusives that push the graphics more than cross gen games.

Personally, I'm fine with it. Even with the few 120fps games I've played on XSX (Gears 5 horde, Ori 2) I'm not that fussed about higher frame rates. Put them side by side and I'd take 60 over 30 and 120 I've not messed around with enough to say how much I notice. But I'd adjust pretty quickly and more appreciate higher resolution and ray tracing etc. in games like Miles Morales (played in fidelity mode) or Cyberpunk (played in quality mode on XSX). And I definitely want the extra resolution and effects in cinematic, narrative driven games as I'm not there for the gameplay most of the time anyway. That said, giving users options is the way to go where possible. Choice is always a good thing.