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[Romulus]

It's crappy, yes. How did kinect sell? It still died.

VR users might buy games, no one is denying that. You haven't addressed me point, which is that people just don't want VR for game consoles. PSVR was a cheap way to get into VR for 100+ million PS4 owners, and less than 5% wanted to.

Ok now I understand. You're using a baseline of kinect. That's why. Sales graphs equal reinvestment. Kinect graph looked like a cliff, it fell off steeply and fast. psvrs is steady or climbing. Extremely different.

Psvr wasnt cheap either. $500 the first year is inline with Rift S on PC, that's a higher end VR setup. Even at $400 later is way too much and far more than kinect. Psvr is a toy but at higher end price. It makes zero business sense and still would have sold 10% in a generation.

 

[Xenon]

There will not be one.

 

[sw0mp_d0nk3y]

There will not be one.

bold prediction sir! You could be right. I really want to see it though, even though psvr makes me sick more often than not. I want to like it.

 

[Xenon]

I just think they would be doing more with the platform if they were continuing it. If we haven't heard anything by next year it's dead.

 

[Romulus]

The problem with the "sony VR is done" is VR did not have a formula of what works before the Quest 2. They have a blueprint to follow now and even improve on.

 

[lukilladog]

 

[Wonko_C]

It's crappy, yes. How did kinect sell? It still died.

VR users might buy games, no one is denying that. You haven't addressed me point, which is that people just don't want VR for game consoles. PSVR was a cheap way to get into VR for 100+ million PS4 owners, and less than 5% wanted to.

It's not that people don't want it, it's that the large majority of people haven't even had the chance to try VR.

It's a hard sell when the only way to know what is like is actually trying it, and the price of admission is steep (almost the cost of the console itself)

 

[MrFunSocks]

It's not that people don't want it, it's that the large majority of people haven't even had the chance to try VR.

It's a hard sell when the only way to know what is like is actually trying it, and the price of admission is steep (almost the cost of the console itself)

And if they don't care enough to try it, it's not going to be successful. There are far cheaper ways to try VR - mainly mobile phones - and lots of people have tried that and either don't like it or just don't care enough.

Ok now I understand. You're using a baseline of kinect. That's why. Sales graphs equal reinvestment. Kinect graph looked like a cliff, it fell off steeply and fast. psvrs is steady or climbing. Extremely different.

Psvr wasnt cheap either. $500 the first year is inline with Rift S on PC, that's a higher end VR setup. Even at $400 later is way too much and far more than kinect. Psvr is a toy but at higher end price. It makes zero business sense and still would have sold 10% in a generation.

lol no I'm not using a baseline of kinect lol. I'm saying that the cost of it isn't a huge barrier if it's something that people want to try. People don't want to try VR on a game console.

 

[Romulus]

And if they don't care enough to try it, it's not going to be successful. There are far cheaper ways to try VR - mainly mobile phones - and lots of people have tried that and either don't like it or just don't care enough.


lol no I'm not using a baseline of kinect lol. I'm saying that the cost of it isn't a huge barrier if it's something that people want to try. People don't want to try VR on a game console.

You bringing up mobile phone VR makrs me wonder if you know the difference. Its massive and you have not tried real VR if it was on a phone.


And theres no evidence that console VR can't be a thing. Psvr led all VR sales for 2 years with shitty tech and high price. Even if they cone out with remotely modern tech, itll sell far better. Psvr uses 10 year old controllers that werent even designed for VR. Lol. The tracking uses light sensors. I mean sony doesn't even have to try that hard. Psvr1 was way off at launch. It's just not a good baseline to judge at all. Quest 2 proves VR sells and psvr showed it can led the market on a console.

 

[MrFunSocks]

You bringing up mobile phone VR makrs me wonder if you know the difference. Its massive and you have not tried real VR if it was on a phone.


And theres no evidence that console VR can't be a thing. Psvr led all VR sales for 2 years with shitty tech and high price. Even if they cone out with remotely modern tech, itll sell far better. Psvr uses 10 year old controllers that werent even designed for VR. Lol. The tracking uses light sensors. I mean sony doesn't even have to try that hard. Psvr1 was way off at launch. It's just not a good baseline to judge at all. Quest 2 proves VR sells and psvr showed it can led the market on a console.

Why are you so persistent on trying to make out like I have no idea what I'm talking about? First it was oh you're basing it on kinect, now it's "oh you're basing it on mobile". No, I'm not. The main thing is that PSVR sold to ~3% of the install base of the second highest selling console of all time. Even the hardest of the hardcore didn't even care enough for it to buy it.

 

[Romulus]

Why are you so persistent on trying to make out like I have no idea what I'm talking about? First it was oh you're basing it on kinect, now it's "oh you're basing it on mobile". No, I'm not. The main thing is that PSVR sold to ~3% of the install base of the second highest selling console of all time. Even the hardest of the hardcore didn't even care enough for it to buy it.

Well you bring up things like kinect and mobile VR in ways that are suspect. "Kinect sold more and died." Those sort of comparisons are just easy to pick apart and it leads to other thoughts about your overall stance. Which is fine no one is expected to know VR stats. I mean you said console VR doesn't sell and psvr was the market leader the majority of its life, while being overpriced and outdated

And our numbers are outdated. Dec 2019 was the last report of 5 million, a year ago and psvr sold almost 2 million per year. Again, sony doesnt need to sell 50 million to profit. That's what you're not getting. Sony is looking at their little shitty VR set that sold 6-7 million that had games charting on the best sellers list. What does that tell you if they can crack a measly 12-15 million with psvr2?

Profit.

 

[jigglet]

Jim Ryan recently said some things that VR fans may find disappointing.

Anyone that finds this disappointing is a moron. VR needs to be years after the launch. Didn't we learn this lesson this gen? XB tried to target casual gamers from day 0 with Kinect and learned the hard way that you need to satisfy the hardcore first, then over time and as you ride the cost curve down, you can then target the broader demographic. Phil said it best (to paraphrase) "succeeding with the hardcore enthusiast buys you permission to then target the casual gamers".

If you see PSVR2 any earlier than 18 months post launch then Sony have screwed up. Satisfying the hardcore / early adopter takes FOCUS, you don't want that shit diluted across two different things.

 

[Wonko_C]

This is what Jim Ryan said last year:

“The current generation of VR has exceeded our expectations. When you step back and look at it — and this is the way I like to look at it — one in 20 of the people who found the money to go out and buy a PlayStation 4, and all the games and peripherals that they enjoyed with that, have also found the money to then go buy the PlayStation VR and all the games and peripherals that go on top of that. And I feel good about that.”

They expected less than what they actually sold and are happy about it. Sony's not gonna quit while there are still profits to be made.

 

[Iced Arcade]

Awfully weird business move to build up momentum, user base, encourage development then completely drop it to pick it up a couple years later and start from scratch.

 

[Deleted member 740922]

 

[Reptars Revenge]

Holiday 2021 with RE8

 

[Boss Mog]

2023 obviously. Ryan said not 2021 and not 2022. This is good it will allow for better tech, lower cost and time for devs to make games for it. They should bundle it with a must play AAA VR game such as Half-Life Alyx or Astro Bot 2.

 

[Resenge]

It's crappy, yes. How did kinect sell? It still died.

VR users might buy games, no one is denying that. You haven't addressed me point, which is that people just don't want VR for game consoles. PSVR was a cheap way to get into VR for 100+ million PS4 owners, and less than 5% wanted to.

Kinect had less than 300 games total for its lifetime 7 years? and 2 generations. PSVR alone has 500+ at last count, for 4 years and still growing. Yes the PS5 supports new PSVR games and I expect more will come, Hitman for EG is being released after the PS5 release. VR as a whole has thousands of games with devs still betting on its success and daily releases, multiple companies fighting to release newer and updated headsets.

This ain't no cheap kinect gimmick that was bundled in with consoles, VR is a platform all to itself was an expensive purchase that has a lot to prove for many people and it still was a success.

Disclaimer, I am not saying everyone will like VR but it's far from dead as some people pretend, I personally have bought much more games than I would care to admit just because I want to see new environments and experiences in VR. There is a much bigger market for VR than Kinect could have ever dreamed of.

Shame as I really enjoyed VR, but Sony have made a clear point they aren't interested in it going forward.

"I think we're more than a few minutes from the future of VR," he said. "PlayStation believes in VR. Sony believes in VR, and we definitely believe at some point in the future, VR will represent a meaningful component of interactive entertainment. Will it be this year? No. Will it be next year? No. But will it come at some stage? We believe that. And we're very pleased with all the experience that we've gained with PlayStation VR, and we look forward to seeing where that takes us in the future."

How can anyone think that this anything but being realistic? He has backed VR as a valid platform not "made a clear point they aren't interested in it going forward" I do not think it is going to explode in popularity, but I do see constant and growth. the Quest 2 has sold 5 times than the Quest in less than 2 years since the release of the first one even with all the Facebook account bullshit.

As much as the naysayers laugh and joke about people defending VR, the actual truth is VR is growing with more people buying VR headsets, consoles and investing in games more than ever before. Is that not growth? I think it is.

 

[Three]

I'm just upset there can't be PS5 versions of PSVR1 games. Why would that be?

Market size. Same reason xbox doesn't have VR at all. The amount of people who own a PS5 and a PSVR is going to be miniscule.

 

[Zero7]

Probably never VR is just another passing fad, like motion controls and 3D

Shame as I really enjoyed VR, but Sony have made a clear point they aren't interested in it going forward.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I think mid gen. When they can compete in quality with that of the current Index.

More importantly, they need PS5 to become widespread first. It is simply impossible to expect PSVR2 to be financially vioable if you expect people to buy PS5 at the same time. They need enough PS5 owners in the wild who no longer remember buying the console, for them to open their pockets to buy an expensive peripheral.

Sony is not into "pushing VR", they are a company trying to make money. PSVR2 would be released when it makes sense to do so, not when the PCVR crowd want them to.

 

[ZywyPL]

My guess is about 3 years from now, where there's enough PS5 userbase to invest into something only a few percent are interested in

 

[Tschumi]

Not for a few years. I'm not sure the hardware needs much changing anyway? More about games?

 

[kuncol02]

And if they don't care enough to try it, it's not going to be successful. There are far cheaper ways to try VR - mainly mobile phones - and lots of people have tried that and either don't like it or just don't care enough.

NO! Mobile phones are not a way to try VR. It's also thing that hurt real VR most, because many people think that all that shitty phone "VR" sets are how virtual reality works. That's straight up not comparable at all.

 

[Perrott]

Probably never VR is just another passing fad, like motion controls and 3D

Shame as I really enjoyed VR, but Sony have made a clear point they aren't interested in it going forward.

No, they didn't.

In fact, over the last two years they've stated that there are plans for a PSVR successor on PS5, its just that now is not the time to discuss those details regarding a device that, as Jim Ryan said, won't be available until 2022 at the earliest.

London Studio is working on Horizon VR, Rockstar is working on an open world VR title, Resident Evil Village will also have VR support iirc and Sony even wanted Kojima to work on VR horror game (although they couldn't agree on a deal for this).

It is clear that PSVR2 will be a thing... eventually.

 

[ReBurn]

No, they didn't.

In fact, over the last two years they've stated that there are plans for a PSVR successor on PS5, its just that now is not the time to discuss those details regarding a device that, as Jim Ryan said, won't be available until 2022 at the earliest.

London Studio is working on Horizon VR, Rockstar is working on an open world VR title, Resident Evil Village will also have VR support iirc and Sony even wanted Kojima to work on VR horror game (although they couldn't agree on a deal for this).

It is clear that PSVR2 will be a thing... eventually.

The challenge that VR is up against is that people just don't buy expensive peripherals. The adoption rate for console add ons that cost hundreds is extremely low. The problem it causes is that it makes creating content too risky for developers since the games might not sell enough to recoup the investment. That's why so many PSVR experiences from this generation were more like tech demos than full game experiences. "VR support" tacked on to a standard game is the best we get because of the low adoption rate.

Jim Ryan is letting fans down easy with any 2022 talk. Unless Sony can find a way to drive higher adoption and increase software support the next version of PSVR would be just as niche and limited as the current version.

 

[Resenge]

The problem it causes is that it makes creating content too risky for developers since the games might not sell enough to recoup the investment.

Yet more games are being developed for VR than ever before? EA just released a Star Wars VR game for multiple VR platforms, The big companies are constantly testing the waters.

That's why so many PSVR experiences from this generation were more like tech demos than full game experiences. "VR support" tacked on to a standard game is the best we get because of the low adoption rate.

Anyone who has played a lot of VR games knows this is not true at all. What you are describing is Devs experimenting with VR and many Devs are experimenting. I think Devs know the possability of VR and are doing what they do best with new tech, experiment. Just like they did with more powerfull hardware back in the 90s and the emergance of 3D games over sprites. It also took years before the standard third person platformer controls were perfected or first person games settled into a standard, Devs need time to experiment to get there. I think this is what we are seeing now with VR.

VR is interesting because it encompasses many different options even though first person is VR's bread and butter, VR has a role to play in allsorts of different types of games and experiences especially outside of gaming. Gaming is pushing VR right now but I expect to see it used in social, business and other real life uses too.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Just like current psvr: 2 years from release of the console

at this point I don't care, they lost a customer. I'll be playing Dirt Rally 2 and Project Cars games in VR on my Quest 2 while PS5 brings exactly ZERO benefits to current psvr...

by 2022, probably Quest 3 is here as is streamable VR games from Facebook game cloud services so I just have no more use for the extra power PS5 would afford psvr right now and besides psvr2 will likely benefit better from PS5 Pro down the road.

Streamable VR???

 

[namekuseijin]

Streamable VR???

AI-assisted rendering and prediction will prevent frame drops in the near future

 

[Ar¢tos]

AI-assisted rendering and prediction will prevent frame drops in the near future

What percentage of the world gamers will have access to that and fast Internet with low latency in that "near future"?

 

[Wonko_C]

Kinect died when Microsoft decided to bundle it with a launch console and charge $100 extra over the competition. Sony is not making that mistake.

 

[namekuseijin]

The challenge that VR is up against is that people just don't buy expensive peripherals

that is true

psvr is a platform in itself, but it depends on PS4

Oculus Quest doesn't, it's a standalone wireless mobile device, a VR console in itself capable of running very good games, including most famous VR titles so far - and still able to easily access more by hooking up to pc wirelessly

it's the direction psvr2 should really go, to be a PSP VR standalone device able to also stream games from a nearby PS5. I think it's inevitable.

 

[namekuseijin]

What percentage of the world gamers will have access to that and fast Internet with low latency in that "near future"?

I come from the atari days and I've seen plenty of major technological breakthroughs in my life - from no networks to 56kbps modems to 5G. It's doable - just as is a near future where AR/VR glasses displace current smartphones or the need for physical screens in a heartbeat. Like Ryan said, still a few minutes away from that, but it's coming, in less time than it took to go from Atari to iPhone.

 

[Matt_Fox]

"Will it be this year? No. Will it be next year? No. But will it come at some stage? We believe that."

Sony has kicked VR into the long grass. Anyone who reads Jim Ryan's words and doesn't get that is fooling themselves. If you read those words and your bet is '2022' release date, then for your own good please stay away from casinos and bookies.

Sorry, I know a lot of us want to see more VR but it's not coming to PS5 anytime soon, if ever.

 

[ReBurn]

Yet more games are being developed for VR than ever before? EA just released a Star Wars VR game for multiple VR platforms, The big companies are constantly testing the waters.




Anyone who has played a lot of VR games knows this is not true at all. What you are describing is Devs experimenting with VR and many Devs are experimenting. I think Devs know the possability of VR and are doing what they do best with new tech, experiment. Just like they did with more powerfull hardware back in the 90s and the emergance of 3D games over sprites. It also took years before the standerd third person platformer controls were perfected or first person games settled into a standerd, Devs need time to experiment to get there. I think this is what we are seeing now with VR.

VR is interesting because it encompasses many different options even though first person is VR's bread and butter, VR has a role to play in allsorts of different types of games and experiences especially outside of gaming. Gaming is pushing VR right now but I expect to see it used in social, business and other real life uses too.

You summed it up perfect. Developers are experimenting with VR. That's why it hasn't been highly adopted for consoles.
at the height of PSVR hype people were averaging 19.7 minutes of playtime per VR session.

Average session time of VR users in the U.S. 2019 | Statista

As per recent data, the average session time of virtual reality (VR) users in the United States between the second and third quarter of 2019 was 19.7 minutes.

www.statista.com

It was an "experience" and not how people were spending their time playing games.

VR is a better suited to the PC market. No doubt at all. But it's not what most people bought PS4 for. It's not going to be what most people buy consoles for in the next few years. They want 4K/60 on their TVs.

 

[namekuseijin]

Kinect died when Microsoft decided to bundle it with a launch console and charge $100 extra over the competition. Sony is not making that mistake.

We don't need that mistake, nor the mistake not to let PS5 power superior VR games or enhancements for current psvr.

 

[Resenge]

You summed it up perfect. Developers are experimenting with VR. That's why it hasn't been highly adopted for consoles.
at the height of PSVR hype people were averaging 19.7 minutes of playtime per VR session.

Average session time of VR users in the U.S. 2019 | Statista

As per recent data, the average session time of virtual reality (VR) users in the United States between the second and third quarter of 2019 was 19.7 minutes.

www.statista.com

It was an "experience" and not how people were spending their time playing games.

VR is a better suited to the PC market. No doubt at all. But it's not what most people bought PS4 for. It's not going to be what most people buy consoles for in the next few years. They want 4K/60 on their TVs.

I agree with most of what you are saying but I beleive that the actual hardware was more of a problem than the experiences. Setting up the PSVR was a pain in the ass with terrible controllers and I would easily pick the Quest over a PSVR any time beacuse of that. PSVR was fine when it released as it was new tech but things have moved on in those 4 years and the PSVR is just not good enough, if it ever was. I am hoping the Sony will bring out a Wireless option like Quest 2 which will help fix that problem but if not? then no big problem as Quest 2 and other PCVR headsets pushing the tech forward and in time I hope consoles will end up adopting the advances they make.

As for people wanting 4K on their TVs, someone should tell Nintendo since I beleive its the biggest selling console of the year?

 

[ReBurn]

I agree with most of what you are saying but I beleive that the actual hardware was more of a problem than the experiences. Setting up the PSVR was a pain in the ass with terrible controllers and I would easily pick the Quest over a PSVR any time beacuse of that. PSVR was fine when it released as it was new tech but things have moved on in those 4 years and the PSVR is just not good enough, if it ever was. I am hoping the Sony will bring out a Wireless option like Quest 2 which will help fix that problem but if not? then no big problem as Quest 2 and other PCVR headsets pushing the tech forward and in time I hope consoles will end up adopting the advances they make.

I think the best possible course for Sony would be to offer support for PC VR hardware instead of releasing their own proprietary solution just for PS5. I don't see how VR can be successful on consoles otherwise. Most people just don't invest in pricey peripherals for consoles.

 

[Ar¢tos]

"Will it be this year? No. Will it be next year? No. But will it come at some stage? We believe that."

Sony has kicked VR into the long grass. Anyone who reads Jim Ryan's words and doesn't get that is fooling themselves. If you read those words and your bet is '2022' release date, then for your own good please stay away from casinos and bookies.

Sorry, I know a lot of us want to see more VR but it's not coming to PS5 anytime soon, if ever.

Yet, Sony keeps registering patents for VR rendering tech, VR gaming controllers, VR displays, etc.
Not exactly what a company no longer interested in VR would do.
Also Ps5 having wifi6 and usb-c are also hints of continued interest in VR.

 

[Resenge]

I think the best possible course for Sony would be to offer support for PC VR hardware instead of releasing their own proprietary solution just for PS5. I don't see how VR can be successful on consoles otherwise. Most people just don't invest in pricey peripherals for consoles.

That is the perfect answer, I doubt it would happen though. I would like to think the Quest 2 could fill that spot or something in that ballpark, both the Quest 2 and PS5 are Wifi 6 compatible.

I would expect Microsoft would make use of a PCVR headset before Sony would allow another company to take a share of its console.

 

[blastprocessor]

Fully wireless PSVR2 will come in 2022.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

They should just allow Oculus Quest on the PS5.

No need to release their own peripheral.

 

[Romulus]

You summed it up perfect. Developers are experimenting with VR. That's why it hasn't been highly adopted for consoles.
at the height of PSVR hype people were averaging 19.7 minutes of playtime per VR session.

Average session time of VR users in the U.S. 2019 | Statista

As per recent data, the average session time of virtual reality (VR) users in the United States between the second and third quarter of 2019 was 19.7 minutes.

www.statista.com

It was an "experience" and not how people were spending their time playing games.

VR is a better suited to the PC market. No doubt at all. But it's not what most people bought PS4 for. It's not going to be what most people buy consoles for in the next few years. They want 4K/60 on their TVs.

Lots of questions about that study though. No source provided without a log in and where does it specify psvr? Could be mobile VR for all we know which has very little games comparatively, or an average with mobile which makes sense.

I mean just a quick search shows conflicting info that specifically says psvr is 49 minutes average and it shows average usage per headset. Mobile drags the average way down, but it isnt real VR.

VR/AR devices average session time U.S. 2018 | Statista

The statistic depicts the average session time of virtual reality/augmented reality devices in the United States as of 2018.

www.statista.com

.

Having said that, its impressive considering some people put on a headset and immediately pull it off because of motion sickness. So you're talking mere seconds thrown in on the averages in that study you posted with first timers.

 

[Romulus]

Most people just don't invest in pricey peripherals for consoles.

To be fair, they've all sucked. I can't think of a single one that was good. "Man why didnt that 32x take off?? It was so good!" Its just not a thing.

Psvr had some great games though, but the tech and price was awful.

 

[ReBurn]

Lots of questions about that study though. No source provided without a log in and where does it specify psvr? Could be mobile VR for all we know which has very little games comparatively, or an average with mobile which makes sense.

I mean just a quick search shows conflicting info that specifically says psvr is 49 minutes average and it shows average usage per headset. Mobile drags the average way down, but it isnt real VR.

VR/AR devices average session time U.S. 2018 | Statista

The statistic depicts the average session time of virtual reality/augmented reality devices in the United States as of 2018.

www.statista.com

.

Having said that, its impressive considering some people put on a headset and immediately pull it off because of motion sickness. So you're talking mere seconds thrown in on the averages in that study you posted with first timers.

What the two show is that VR started off hot in 2018 and by the end of 2019 people weren't playing as much any more. A lot of VR equipment was gathering dust because the tangle of cords and low resolution display put a lot of people off of the technolog.

Also, you can't pick the one statistic from the list that you agree with to argue your point about VR. Mobile VR wasn't the same as PC, but it was still an approach to VR. If the definition of real is up for debate then that's a whole other discussion.

 

[Romulus]

What the two show is that VR started off hot in 2018 and by the end of 2019 people weren't playing as much any more. A lot of VR equipment was gathering dust because the tangle of cords and low resolution display put a lot of people off of the technolog.

Also, you can't pick the one statistic from the list that you agree with to argue your point about VR. Mobile VR wasn't the same as PC, but it was still an approach to VR. If the definition of real is up for debate then that's a whole other discussion.

The first study doesnt even mention psvr.
And theres no evidence that usage dropped suddenly, that's what I'm saying, those are unknown sources. Tangle of cords? Why was mobile VR usage basically the same when its wireless? Lots of questions like that. I know from personal experience on mobile that people put it down, not legitimatizing those studies. Not to mention, the studies are different.

 

[RJMacready73]

sounds like they're cutting their losses and at the same time it also sounds like they want to concentrate their message and strategy fully on PS5 and not another piece of hardware, we'll not know fully what their goal for VR is for at least 2yrs

 

[drezz]

This with haptic feedback would be great.
And with camera on the headset(since the light bar now is facing the player this time around) for better tracking would make it less shaky and immersive.

 

[BlueHawk357]

Pretty sure one of the PS heads said they thought VR was still not ready.

 

[wipeout364]

I think they will wait till Christmas 2023. They will be trying to meet demand for the next 12 to 16 months. They also need to get their studios making exclusives for PS5.

I think by fall 2023 momentum will be starting to drop a bit and it would be a good time to release PSVR to boost things back up. Plus the longer they wait the better the components they can use.