• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

What's wrong with Digital Foundry?

It's really simple.this forum is full of Sony fanboys. Digital foundry are fine.

Again the thread with the poll about "who is the more consumer friendly company between Microsoft and Sony"
Said it all to me.

Sony won it. Despite not having full backward compatibility even on the ps5, not having a gamepass like service( which gives players a choice),not allowing cross generation play( whether you like it or not is a pro consumer move) and not announcing a smart delivery like service.

Nope Sony is better because THERE MY FAvOUrite.

That point was not open to debate but Sony still won because" PLAystation is my favourite"

You know it's actually OK to admit your favourite company could be better?it's actually important to give them
Feedback?

I feel even Nintendo fans are better at this. They have blind love but nobody will tell you their online is amazing and their treatment of legacy content is in anyway good.

Which means yes... I think Sony fanboys are the most annoying in the industry and frankly always have been.

So you're mad that a thread with a poll asking peoples opinions didn't perfectly align with your viewpoints on the matter? You sound so authoritarian on this like there's no way someone could argue the opposite side, if that were true why did the thread need to exist? Why have a poll? If we did a similar thread asking which platform has better exclusives and XBOX won I wouldn't be making dumb posts about how people should agree with me.
 

Shmunter

Member
It's really simple.this forum is full of Sony fanboys. Digital foundry are fine.

Again the thread with the poll about "who is the more consumer friendly company between Microsoft and Sony"
Said it all to me.

Sony won it. Despite not having full backward compatibility even on the ps5, not having a gamepass like service( which gives players a choice),not allowing cross generation play( whether you like it or not is a pro consumer move) and not announcing a smart delivery like service.

Nope Sony is better because THERE MY FAvOUrite.

That point was not open to debate but Sony still won because" PLAystation is my favourite"

You know it's actually OK to admit your favourite company could be better?it's actually important to give them
Feedback?

I feel even Nintendo fans are better at this. They have blind love but nobody will tell you their online is amazing and their treatment of legacy content is in anyway good.

Which means yes... I think Sony fanboys are the most annoying in the industry and frankly always have been.
To counter the pro consumer argument. Sony is the company moving towards a next gen experience that millions of customers are scrambling for.

People miss the basic fact that a company that is fulfilling a customers biggest wants is the company that will be favoured even if not perfect on every tick box.

Some of the comparison points you make are also incorrect, subjective or speculative.
 
Last edited:

Redlight

Member
Lol, half of that video he doesn't even address what DF said, rather he jumps to something else DF didn't talk about to use that against them. No wonder this guy only got 7K subscribers, most of them are probably hardcore PS diehards that enjoy trashy (pun intended) videos like that, lol. This guy is a hardcore PS fanboy so obviously he expects DF and everyone else to be extremely critical of anything Microsoft. He sure ain't gonna make a video about DF going soft on Sony and Nintendo games in their analysis lol, what a joke.

It's obvious isn't it? I find it disturbing that actual thinking people could try to use a video like this as evidence of anything. The maker is just another die-hard console warrior with a youtube channel. His 'analysis' is distilled fanboy drivel.

DF is meant to be more like that? These people are crazy. :)
 
Last edited:

mcjmetroid

Member
So you're mad that a thread with a poll asking peoples opinions didn't perfectly align with your viewpoints on the matter? You sound so authoritarian on this like there's no way someone could argue the opposite side, if that were true why did the thread need to exist? Why have a poll? If we did a similar thread asking which platform has better exclusives and XBOX won I wouldn't be making dumb posts about how people should agree with me.

Xbox at least in the last few years have been the far more consumer friendly company. Of course they're only doing it to get back on people's good books and
That of course may change in time but currently to suggest Sony is more consumer friendly is laughable.

there is no debate on that particular subject.
If there is try me.
 
Xbox at least in the last few years have been the far more consumer friendly company. Of course they're only doing it to get back on people's good books and
That of course may change in time but currently to suggest Sony is more consumer friendly is laughable.

there is no debate on that particular subject.
If there is try me.

I consider the company that gives me good exclusives on a regular basis more consumer friendly because I like good games. I consider the company with better deals more consumer friendly, the sales on PSN are huge and rival Steam, in fact I'd say they destroy Steam sales that we've seen in recent years. Also, the company willing to give me next-gen games to accompany a next-gen system and not let current gen hold it back is more consumer friendly to me.
 

mcjmetroid

Member
To counter the pro consumer argument. Sony is the company moving towards a next gen experience that millions of customers are scrambling for.

People miss the basic fact that a company that is fulfilling a customers biggest wants is the company that will be favoured even if not perfect on every tick box.

Some of the comparison points you make are also incorrect, subjective or speculative.
So Sony is more consumer friendly because they're selling a new box with games exclusive to that box while Microsoft are allowing gamers to play their new console games on their existing box?

Cmon now. I think Microsoft's decision to allow current gen consoles play next gen games is a little foolish but to say it's less consumer friendly than Sony is nonsense.
 
So Sony is more consumer friendly because they're selling a new box with games exclusive to that box while Microsoft are allowing gamers to play their new console games on their existing box?

Cmon now. I think Microsoft's decision to allow current gen consoles play next gen games is a little foolish but to say it's less consumer friendly than Sony is nonsense.

It's not consumer friendly to ask me to spend 500 dollars for something that doesn't have next-gen games on it.
 

mcjmetroid

Member
I consider the company that gives me good exclusives on a regular basis more consumer friendly because I like good games. I consider the company with better deals more consumer friendly, the sales on PSN are huge and rival Steam, in fact I'd say they destroy Steam sales that we've seen in recent years. Also, the company willing to give me next-gen games to accompany a next-gen system and not let current gen hold it back is more consumer friendly to me.
Yaaaa this is pretty weak stuff.
 

Redlight

Member
I don't think you have the full picture here, DF has had somewhat of a slant for MS ever since the Xbox 360/PS3 times.

You mean he routinely thought Xbox versions were better during a period where they were routinely better? Outrageous!
I'd like to see actual evidence of a pro-Xbox bias in a head to head during the PS4/Xbox one period.
 

Shmunter

Member
Xbox at least in the last few years have been the far more consumer friendly company. Of course they're only doing it to get back on people's good books and
That of course may change in time but currently to suggest Sony is more consumer friendly is laughable.

there is no debate on that particular subject.
If there is try me.

consumer-friendly

used to describe something that is good for people who are buying products and services for their own use.

What is good for one customer may not be as good for another. A full next gen push may be more value to me while investing in a next gen system, whereas using a 2013 controller may be more important for another user. The thing is, each company is offering something different - ultimately the customer chooses which is better for them.
 
Last edited:

mcjmetroid

Member
It's not consumer friendly to ask me to spend 500 dollars for something that doesn't have next-gen games on it.
But that's the thing you don't even need to spend that money.. if you have a good pc the games are release on that day and date, same as the Xbox and a lot of games are going to be playable on Xbox one.

Do I think it's a wise decision from MS? Nope.
Why even buy the latest Xbox if you have a good pc and an Xbox one? I don't know good question and I'll agree with you there.

Do I think it's more consumer friendly to have more choices? Yes of course.
 
But that's the thing you don't even need to spend that money.. if you have a good pc the games are release on that day and date, same as the Xbox and a lot of games are going to be playable on Xbox one.

Do I think it's a wise decision from MS? Nope.
Why even buy the latest Xbox if you have a good pc and an Xbox one? I don't know good question and I'll agree with you there.

Do I think it's more consumer friendly to have more choices? Yes of course.

Consumer friendly is a debatable issue because it's based on the idea of a company doing things a consumer wants, my wants do not need to align with yours.
 

Azurro

Banned
You mean he routinely thought Xbox versions were better during a period where they were routinely better? Outrageous!
I'd like to see actual evidence of a pro-Xbox bias in a head to head during the PS4/Xbox one period.

You are assuming what I mean by that statement. What I meant is that they tended to exaggerate a bit the differences between the versions, especially resolution and framerate, which wasn't present when the PS4 and Xbox One came around and the situation was reversed. I'm not saying their analysis isn't good or their content isn't relevant, just that it's good to keep Richard's biases in mind when something like this happens. Regardless, the overall point isn't that Sony fanboys are "losing their minds" because the Series X is "such an incredible beast", but rather that the slight bias was always there.

The only one I think doesn't do a good job is Alex, as he can't contain his biases like Richard can.
 

Lynkk

Neo Member
Years ago they made a video about 3D racing game in the 90's focusing mostly (jerking off) on Daytona USA... But no word on Ridge Racer.
 

mcjmetroid

Member
Oh okay, I am apparently objectively wrong and should simply agree with you...?? I'm wondering how much self-awareness you have.
Well the next gen consoles haven't arrived yet so let's leave that out of the equation for now because we don't know about price or even the full list of games etc etc.

On current gen systems you're arguing that the better games means it's more consumer friendly which.. I guess I can can dig. That is a little subjective but I have to say the PS4 does have better games than the Xbox one overall. That's another one of my " there's no arguing with it" points.:)

However I do think Microsoft has provided better value for the customer. Of course out of necessity and trying to win over the customer etc. But still.

Gamepass as a value for customer is amazing and better than anything ps have to offer.
I know the first party isn't as good but the range of third party and backward compatibility put it over the edge.
Not to mention the ability to play gamepass on pc and the ability to buy any Xbox game on PC.

Sony's first party offerings may be good but there not THAT good.

I guess my overall point is.
You gotta give credit where credit is due. Microsoft have done an amazing job trying to win back over customers. The value on their console is just better.

Sony have better first party games. That is about it.
 
Well the next gen consoles haven't arrived yet so let's leave that out of the equation for now because we don't know about price or even the full list of games etc etc.

On current gen systems you're arguing that the better games means it's more consumer friendly which.. I guess I can can dig. That is a little subjective but I have to say the PS4 does have better games than the Xbox one overall. That's another one of my " there's no arguing with it" points.:)

However I do think Microsoft has provided better value for the customer. Of course out of necessity and trying to win over the customer etc. But still.

Gamepass as a value for customer is amazing and better than anything ps have to offer.
I know the first party isn't as good but the range of third party and backward compatibility put it over the edge.
Not to mention the ability to play gamepass on pc and the ability to buy any Xbox game on PC.

Sony's first party offerings may be good but there not THAT good.

I guess my overall point is.
You gotta give credit where credit is due. Microsoft have done an amazing job trying to win back over customers. The value on their console is just better.

Sony have better first party games. That is about it.

PS Now has a larger library of games to play than Gamepass, it can also be used on PC. I do think Gamepass Ultimate is the better value just going by dollars but I also think they usually have worse Games with Gold than the games given out on PS+, that their library of games isn't as high quality and that I prefer owning a game meaning I prefer the awesome big sales PSN routinely has. I think Sony's first party offerings ARE that good. Giving credit where it's due does not mean people have to agree with your viewpoint. I'd also say that how good a job they're doing of winning back customers is more determined by if they actually do win back customers than how much existing customers enjoy it, and the sales charts aren't speaking volumes to that in my view. The value of what on their console? Why would I buy their console to play shit I can play on PC?
 

mcjmetroid

Member
PS Now has a larger library of games to play than Gamepass, it can also be used on PC. I do think Gamepass Ultimate is the better value just going by dollars but I also think they usually have worse Games with Gold than the games given out on PS+, that their library of games isn't as high quality and that I prefer owning a game meaning I prefer the awesome big sales PSN routinely has. I think Sony's first party offerings ARE that good. Giving credit where it's due does not mean people have to agree with your viewpoint. I'd also say that how good a job they're doing of winning back customers is more determined by if they actually do win back customers than how much existing customers enjoy it, and the sales charts aren't speaking volumes to that in my view. The value of what on their console? Why would I buy their console to play shit I can play on PC?
I haven't kept up with the Xbox gold free games. I'm a relatively new Xbox one gamer but what I was seen is pretty weak I will say. It does look like gold could be disappearing so it may have been better before but it reaks of MS couldn't give a shit at the moment.

It's all about the gamepass for them.

The ps now does have a bigger library but I don't think youll find many people saying it's better.

I think backward compatibility and the fact they do release NEW games day and date do make it more valuable.

If Sony released their first party games day and date on the PS Now then it would be a different discussion On what's better between gamepass and ps now.

They're obviously holding back there though. If Microsoft get into a stronger position they will try it and will probably dominate again.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. You've made some good points and the ps plus argument is a very good one now that I think about it. The PS4 does give way better games from what I've seen.
 

Shmunter

Member
I haven't kept up with the Xbox gold free games. I'm a relatively new Xbox one gamer but what I was seen is pretty weak I will say. It does look like gold could be disappearing so it may have been better before but it reaks of MS couldn't give a shit at the moment.

It's all about the gamepass for them.

The ps now does have a bigger library but I don't think youll find many people saying it's better.

I think backward compatibility and the fact they do release NEW games day and date do make it more valuable.

If Sony released their first party games day and date on the PS Now then it would be a different discussion On what's better between gamepass and ps now.

They're obviously holding back there though. If Microsoft get into a stronger position they will try it and will probably dominate again.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. You've made some good points and the ps plus argument is a very good one now that I think about it. The PS4 does give way better games from what I've seen.
Sony style hugely expensive single player experiences are incompatible with an all you can eat service. Such services work by soliciting ongoing subscriptions.

It would do Sony no good to release a game only to have subscribers join cheap for one month, finish the game and check out till the next big title.

Sony would need to follow the MS AA/B model of lower quality more often service games. Currently that’s not what Sony is about and that’s what fans of these games want to see maintained.

I’m one of these, I do not appreciate a gamepass future due to the above. For what it is today, it will only spiral further down, it’s inevitable. Perfectly fine for casuals, not good for enthusiasts that value quality over quantity.
 
I love when I hear people saying how this forum is a SONY paradise. Look at your local facebook market groups, craigslist etc. There are like 8:1 games being sold are PS4. Its the console for this generation, its marketed well, its endorsed by celebrities and athletes. Its not fanboyism, its THE most popular console currently. Back when Xbox360 was active, everyone had one because it came out first, a year later PS3 didnt offer better graphics, actually they were worse and you could see an xbox360 in everyones home, including MTV cribs etc. Nobody was talking about the PS3 for a while. Back then people said NEoGaf was MS paradise. If majority of people by one console, that doesnt make them fanboys, its just more people have the PS4 here because MS dropped the ball big time this generation.
 

skneogaf

Member
So the general consensus is that only Sony PlayStation fanatics dislike digital foundry unless they're praising the playstation and even then it probably isn't enough to not have the fanatics say negative things about the channel, article's and the staff.

Interesting stuff and really does hit home who are the worst fanatics.
 

Journey

Banned
Hated for telling 360 games had better resolution and frame rate over PS3.

Loved for telling PS4 1080p games looked better than Xbox One.

Hated for telling gamers SeX is more powerful than PS5.


Pretty much this. Loved them when PS4 was constantly stomping on Xbox One games, their comparisons were very informative and fair, all that fairness stopped on November of 2017, but I'm not sure why, what could've changed that year? :goog_unsure:


Xbox One X LMAO
 
Last edited:

Kenpachii

Member
DF fell into the youtube tech expert trap where money aka views rules over knowledge and facts.

They lacked knowledge from the left and the right the moment it left the framerate and resolution checking on games. They moved over to every console hot take u could possible imagine for clicks and started to echo the same stuff those tech experts on youtube do all day long, repeat eachother rather then actually knowing what's going on.

This made them look incredible stupid and amaturistic even while they present themselves as know it all.

To get even more cash rolling they started to make deals with microsoft which where obvious to anybody and started to always tune down there critisisme for it because they want there contracts in tact for future reveals etc. Which is where probably most of the console gamers started to give them flank.

What DF should have done is get a new game check framerate resolutions and graphical settings being pushed and call it a day. pure facts. Sadly they take a lot of "we think", "we assume" and that's what probably drives people against a wall.

DF needs to report facts and leave out opinions. Something they can't do because of money.
 
Last edited:
The only people who hate Digital Foundry are console warriors who are pro-Sony.

Digital Foundry did a very realistic video on Halo Infinite that was critical of the game's presentation but they didn't do it in a way that the Sony-ponies wanted them to (Alex explained the lighting for the most part was due to the time of day, but still called out older lighting techniques that don't help)

Somehow it makes Digital Foundry MS shills when people on these forums just can't understand simple things that DF explains
 
The only people who hate Digital Foundry are console warriors who are pro-Sony.

Digital Foundry did a very realistic video on Halo Infinite that was critical of the game's presentation but they didn't do it in a way that the Sony-ponies wanted them to (Alex explained the lighting for the most part was due to the time of day, but still called out older lighting techniques that don't help)

Somehow it makes Digital Foundry MS shills when people on these forums just can't understand simple things that DF explains

If it was time of day... why do the demo at that time of day? I think that's a legit question.

That said, the problem with DF is that lighting focus... the people with issues with it aren't just talking about lighting and they make some asides for the other problems the truth is the massive pop-in, LOD problems and shit like textures looking 720p is far more egregious than the lighting making it look flat, but the flat look goes beyond lighting... there's no style or personality to it.
 

Redlight

Member
You are assuming what I mean by that statement. What I meant is that they tended to exaggerate a bit the differences between the versions, especially resolution and framerate, which wasn't present when the PS4 and Xbox One came around and the situation was reversed. I'm not saying their analysis isn't good or their content isn't relevant, just that it's good to keep Richard's biases in mind when something like this happens. Regardless, the overall point isn't that Sony fanboys are "losing their minds" because the Series X is "such an incredible beast", but rather that the slight bias was always there.

The only one I think doesn't do a good job is Alex, as he can't contain his biases like Richard can.
I don't accept your premise that there's an underlying bias that has to be accounted for.

I've yet to see a single example of objective bias by DF in this entire thread. Instead we get vague claims such as differences being 'exaggerated' or they 'didn't say enough', or they 'said too much'. There's even been cases in this very thread where a supposed example of bias is presented as fact, then easily disproven with a simple look at the source material.

So far the only real evidence of bias in this thread is, ironically, from the posters claiming that DF is biased.
 

Dee_Dee

Member
Isn’t it rumored that Sony is letting DF do a tear down of the PS5 or something like that? The thread on that will be very fun to read.
 
I don't accept your premise that there's an underlying bias that has to be accounted for.

I've yet to see a single example of objective bias by DF in this entire thread. Instead we get vague claims such as differences being 'exaggerated' or they 'didn't say enough', or they 'said too much'. There's even been cases in this very thread where a supposed example of bias is presented as fact, then easily disproven with a simple look at the source material.

So far the only real evidence of bias in this thread is, ironically, from the posters claiming that DF is biased.

I'm so glad you find confirmation bias so easily, I think the argument has nuance to it and some perspectives have been very enlightening. You seem here to prove a point, not enlighten yourself or others.
 

Jon Neu

Banned
Zoom in 800% on a game from the PS show to show flaws writes off Halo Infinite looking like shit because of the time of day in the game.

This is the narrative of the Sony fans and they literally believe it to be true. Look at the number of positive reactions this comment alone has. Amazing.

It reminds me of the Real Madrid fans that are so accostumed of every media being heavily on their side, that when a media that doesn’t align with the narrative pops out, it’s inmediately dismissed as “anti Madrid”.

I’m sure a similar example can be made with democrats and media in America, I’m just not that versed.
 

Jon Neu

Banned
The irony is that most of Gaf relies on DF not just for a comprehensive analysis of things they otherwise wouldn't look for, but also for confirmation bias. When said bias is not toward one's platform of choice we call them shills.

Yep.

When DF says something that is good for them, then they post it as gospel and add commentaries like “even DF says X is better in Sony!”.

When DF doesn’t follow the Sony fan narrative, then they are MS shills and their opinion/analysis doesn’t count.
 

deriks

4-Time GIF/Meme God
telling gamers SeX is more powerful than PS5.
Sony fanboys doesn't get sex confirmed

But yeah, they're invited to see Series X and all the specs. Sony is not that powerful. You can't argue with numbers, but Sony fanboys still think they already won

I wish Kyle Bosman made another "battle of the bands" for this
 

Foxbat

Banned
DF fell into the youtube tech expert trap where money aka views rules over knowledge and facts.

They lacked knowledge from the left and the right the moment it left the framerate and resolution checking on games. They moved over to every console hot take u could possible imagine for clicks and started to echo the same stuff those tech experts on youtube do all day long, repeat eachother rather then actually knowing what's going on.

This made them look incredible stupid and amaturistic even while they present themselves as know it all.

To get even more cash rolling they started to make deals with microsoft which where obvious to anybody and started to always tune down there critisisme for it because they want there contracts in tact for future reveals etc. Which is where probably most of the console gamers started to give them flank.

What DF should have done is get a new game check framerate resolutions and graphical settings being pushed and call it a day. pure facts. Sadly they take a lot of "we think", "we assume" and that's what probably drives people against a wall.

DF needs to report facts and leave out opinions. Something they can't do because of money.

While I was pretty confident in my guess... I decided to verify it before posting anything just to be sure. As expected, my guess was correct.

The junk in my garbage disposal smells better than that post.

I guess due to it being so common an occurrence recently, that stuff gets glossed over. But those are some pretty hefty accusations being thrown around without even a shred of supporting evidence. Once upon a time, that was frowned upon.


At no point are my opinions meant to be taken serious. I agree to all terms and conditions, and accept Sony as our lord and savior. May all bless Sony and it's superior PS4, and shame MS and the horrid Xbox.
 
Last edited:

NXGamer

Member
He's good but nowhere near DF level of quality and production.
The only one that comes close is Coreteks but he's more for PC things.
I disagree, their quality is better on production, no doubt. But they are:-

  1. Funded by Eurogamer and other sources;
  2. Have a team to work on content;
  3. Are all full time;
  4. Have a MUCH higher revenue from Patron and YT
  5. Have MUCH more contacts and connections in the industry (due to Eurogamer and RL)
I on the other hand
  1. Am a single/solo entity;
  2. This is all part-time/side project as I work full time in the Technology and Development sector;
  3. Most of my videos are made (start to finish) between a Saturday and Sunday;
  4. I have no support other than my loyal Patrons and the small YT revenue (which I make almost no profit from);
  5. I have a very limited access to the industry but do have contact with a few good Developers in the industry;

All the above said, I present data, info and I believe a deeper technical insight into the engines, tech and games than they do. This is supported by many others who have commented as such INCLUDING developers themselves.

Am I better? Is DF better? Who cares!

The thing is choice and I stand by the fact my content is as engaging and informed as theirs but people can choose which they prefer...but

giphy.gif
 

Shmunter

Member
I disagree, their quality is better on production, no doubt. But they are:-

  1. Funded by Eurogamer and other sources;
  2. Have a team to work on content;
  3. Are all full time;
  4. Have a MUCH higher revenue from Patron and YT
  5. Have MUCH more contacts and connections in the industry (due to Eurogamer and RL)
I on the other hand
  1. Am a single/solo entity;
  2. This is all part-time/side project as I work full time in the Technology and Development sector;
  3. Most of my videos are made (start to finish) between a Saturday and Sunday;
  4. I have no support other than my loyal Patrons and the small YT revenue (which I make almost no profit from);
  5. I have a very limited access to the industry but do have contact with a few good Developers in the industry;

All the above said, I present data, info and I believe a deeper technical insight into the engines, tech and games than they do. This is supported by many others who have commented as such INCLUDING developers themselves.

Am I better? Is DF better? Who cares!

The thing is choice and I stand by the fact my content is as engaging and informed as theirs but people can choose which they prefer...but

giphy.gif
I watch majority of your content. Not aware of any other outfit matching your caliber, DF simply equal.

Should probably put up some cash where my mouth is.
 

Hudo

Member
The problem is corporate tribalism practiced by consumers (and supported by the respective marketing departments of said companies). There are people who identify themselves by the brands they are buying even though no company rewards "loyalty" (because being a "loyal consumer" is fucking stupid). So if DF say something positive about one company, there will be people who feel deeply attacked and raise a stink about it.

Doesn't mean that DF can't be wrong but I don't think they have any particular bias.
 
Did your mom didn't teach you how to ask for things? :)

But sure, watch his Halo Infinite video. Tons and tons of issues with that game's graphics, and he heavily downplays the flaws.
I've watched it several times. I can't find any downplay at all. The video was not meant to talk in depth about every graphical element of the game. The one it does cover it covers well and shows many examples in the game proving the point. Maybe my problem is I don't really give a shit about Sony or MS and since I don't have a bias I don't see the imaginary one.
Also saying watch a video isn't giving an example. Give an example of objective bias and not one that I have to do gymnastics to come to that conclusion.
 
I was a bit surprised how optimistic DF was towards that Halo Infinite shipwreck....but aside from that I have never seen any bias from them. Imho they are very objective.
I get the feeling that this is the usual internet situation where anyone not agreeing with one's own opinion is the enemy by default....
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom