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[Yoboman]

Final Fantasy is the best selling of the traditional JRPG, but other franchises aren't far behind and have been closing the gap

DQXI and Persona 5 (plus Royal) sold over 6 million which would put them on par with any Final Fantasy before XV. Kingdom Hearts 3 sold 6.7 million so it's in the same boat.

In particular the success of Persona shows that if you put out something good consistently the sales will follow. Persona being in the sales mix with FF, DQ and KH would have been a laughable thought two gens ago. Also Persona did those numbers as a PS exclusive, while FFXV was multiplat

And this is ignoring stuff like Pokemon or RPGs that go beyond the traditional JRPG style like Monster Hunter and Elden Ring

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Much lower budgets, lack of brand recognition, less hype and little marketing is probably a huge contributing factor I’m guessing?

 

[xpresstuning]

Why does Final Fantasy sell so well in comparison to other JRPGs?

Because Final Fantasy has little to no foreign cultural callbacks, it is not as strongly intertwined with japanese culture and it is by design mass appealing. Final Fantasy 7, for your information, was the very first true "AAA" game. That was a ridiculous, i mean, a ridiculous catapult for the Final Fantasy IP into consumer awareness. That has never dropped, thanks to the strong marketing for every game that gets released.

Why don't other JRPGs sell as well as the Final Fantasy frachise?

- they're usually infused in some significant degree with the part of japanese culture strongly tilting towards 'otaku'. They're not appealing to a world wide demographic.
- they usually have very small marketing footprint, almost none. I would suspect that they don't throw much budget on marketing, which is quintessential for these games to sell well because of how culturally restrictive they are.

And that's about it. Doesn't necessarily have a correlation to quality, it may or may not be a quality game. The only thing i would personally care for, if i had an interest in a IP in the "JRPG" sphere, is if said IP is profitable for the developers making them. Out of a few examples i can think of which fall in line with the narrative of your thread concerning what the fuck a JRPG even is these days, i think they're usually profitable.

 

[LazyParrot]

If you remove Call of Duty you still have blockbuster selling games. Selling over 8M copies or more. 5M being easy for many ip.

If you remove Final Fantasy from Jrpgs you don't have any sellers like that, and most can barely sell 3M and are a big deal if they pass 5M as only a few do.

So what? JRPGs a significantly smaller and more niche genre than shooters to begin with, so there naturally aren't going to be as many big sellers overall. The point is that both FF and CoD are essentially the poster children for JRPGs and shooters respectively, to the point where even people who don't even play these genres (or perhaps any games at all) are familiar with them. That's a massive advantage.

 

[rodrigolfp]

No, as FF is also low quality.

...

 

[Valonquar]

Because most remaining JRPG franchises are just cringe factor 5000 and using the same engine they used on PS3.

 

[CrimsonSquall]

Truth is final fantasy doesn’t really get crazy sales just far better than other JRPG’s and a lot of that has to do with marketing and budget. Ex. Ghost of Tsushima already outsold the last two major final fantasy games in less than half the time.

Also, a lot of JRPG’s are still rooted in niche anime tropes that if you’re not a huge weeb probably aren’t gonna vibe with. Final Fantasy is the only series that tries to diversify its stories and gameplay systems enough to be wide reaching.

I actually expect FFXVI to sell the best even with less platforms just because of the marketing Sony will put into it and it taking more inspiration from stuff like GoT.

Ehh they are about the same no? Both about 10M? Still impressive for both tbh, more for Ghosts but yea

 

[hemo memo]

Marketing.

 

[remember_spinal]

Ehh they are about the same no? Both about 10M? Still impressive for both tbh, more for Ghosts but yea

Ghost did it in like a year and half, FFXV struggled to cross 10 mil after 6 years. By the time GoT gets a pc release and a sequel announcement it will be well past 15

 

[belmarduk]

There have been over 85 million copies of Dragon Quest games sold, as of last year. The series is much better than Final Fantasy anyway.

 

[CrimsonSquall]

Ghost did it in like a year and half, FFXV struggled to cross 10 mil after 6 years. By the time GoT gets a pc release and a sequel announcement it will be well past 15

Yea I mean FFXV was also just a shit game. Ghosts was universally praised and late stage PS4 game so had everything backing it to be an absolute smash.

I think XVI will have some massive legs this time around because I just cant see this not being a user and critics choice for this year

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Because Jrpgs never took of and the surprise from people on the sub-genres sales comes from the myth that they were popular after Final Fantasy 7 way beyond the extent than they actually were (and FF7 wasn't even that big outside of japan though a good seller)

After Final Fantasy 7 there was this claim that Jrpgs were hitting the mainstream in home gaming, but that never actually happened. It wasn't even a fad, because a fad is something that caught on and other participated in the interest in the fad. It was only the rise of Final Fantasy and nothing else.

After Final Fantasy 7 on the psx there was the next best-selling Jrpg...

Final Fantasy 8, where the next best-selling jrpg was...

Final Fantasy 9, where the next best-selling jrpg was...

Final Fantasy X on ps1, where the next best-selling jrpg was...

Kingdom Heats, where the best next best-selling Jrpgs was

Final Fantasy X-2, where the next be...

I think you get the point.

Look at the sales data in the US for example,

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/foun...ames-through-2007-usa.1639410/#post-266407965

Of all the games on all the home consoles included, there are only 7 jrpgs and 5 were Final Fantasy, on handhelds only Pokemon is listed.

Tales of Vesperia is a game Jrpg anime fans love to death and no one brough it. Same with Star Ocean, Grandia, Xenosaga, Wild Arms, Disgaea, Eternal Sonata, White Knight Chronicles, none of these are on the same level.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Wizardry 1-8 was made by Sir Tech....America. WRPG
But Ultima is a WRPG too

Actually with how the terms are now and how things split up between computer rpgs and console rpgs, which is where the W and J terms came from historically, these days Wizardry would be classified as a Jrpg, and Ultima a Wrpg.

This is what happens when theres a trend of fans who re gaming journalists retroactively applying modern terms back years before those terms existed.

Franchise sales from wikipedia.

Tier Fus Ro Dah - The Elder Scrolls
Tier 1 - Pokémon
Tier 2 - Final Fantasy
Tier 3 - Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, Diablo, The Witcher
Tier 4 - Fallout, Kingdom Hearts, Megami Tensei, Dark Souls, Tales, Mystery Dungeon, Mass Effect

I don't see this supposed western dominance. Like, not at all.

This is a pad point because Dragon Quest owns almost all it's sales to one country which mostly buys only it's own games, were outside buys everyones games, which makes this list look much different than the reality where it would be western dominated by sales outside of Japan.

 

[Rykan]

There have been over 85 million copies of Dragon Quest games sold, as of last year. The series is much better than Final Fantasy anyway.

This is a joke, right? Dragon Quest is not much better than Final Fantasy. Not even close. It's a game with absolutely no innovation whatsoever and relies entirely on nostalgia to sell.

 

[Kumomeme]

others jrpg tend to fall to a niche space and this space not growing up at same pace as before compared to, 15 - 20 years ago for example while new generation of audience is exposed and grow up with different gaming trend and preconception today.

while i dont see any big move or effort made tried to reach and appeal spaces outside of the niche bubble, Final Fantasy however is bigger than that. it already break out of that shell and has huge presence in industry. could be said same with title like Pokemon or Legend of Zelda too.

in term of production value, the franchise also always keep trying to stand toe to toe with AAA big hit rpg particularly western rpg out there. they always make a presence in industry.

 

[K' Dash]

Last time Square released a decent FF game was more than 20 years ago, they were still calles Squaresoft.

The IP runs on pure nostalgia and mediocrity, they games are so meh that the aberration they called FFVIIIR looks good in comparison… how can anyone think that game is anything but average is beyond me.

But yeah, they sell still. I’m hoping SE luck will run out so Sony buys them and hopefully can restore Final Fantasy to their former glory, I think they would respect their IPs more than SE does.

 

[Nocturno999]

Fans grew up but most of these series didn't. And some like Star Ocean worsened.

 

[ByWatterson]

The vast majority of Western gamers store don't play non-West made games. This is doubly true for Americans who generally only consume American media.

When's the last time you watched a TV show or movie not made in Hollywood? Yeah, gaming is the same.

Foreign shows become successful here all the time?

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Self-Loathing!

 

[Gobjuduck]

The last 3 personas, The last 3 xenoblades, and the last 3 dragon quest games are better games than the last 3 final fantasy games.

Its just brand power, like how pokemon sell insane amounts regardless of quality. The next persona will sell a ton, with that new found audience.

 

[Shifty1897]

The last 3 personas, The last 3 xenoblades, and the last 3 dragon quest games are better games than the last 3 final fantasy games.

Its just brand power, like how pokemon sell insane amounts regardless of quality. The next persona will sell a ton, with that new found audience.

Exactly, it takes time to build a mega franchise that prints money, and one you've built it, you can put out middling games (FF13, FF15) and keep things running for a while. I think giving FF16 to Yoshi P was probably the smartest "safe move" Square Enix could do, and I hope that ends up working out for them.

This is a separate argument, but mainline Final Fantasy games barely qualify as a JRPG anymore, and certainly shouldn't be viewed as the genre king. 16 looks like a cutscene heavy action game with a few RPG elements thrown in.

 

[The Cockatrice]

That's not a JRPG-style game.

From Software was one of the first Japanese developers to embrace the western RPG formula. They even stated that Wizardry was an influence on their games. They created the King's Field series which definitely pays homage to Wizardry and is more in the western RPG style and not really at all in the JRPG style. They continued on and followed that formula and style up with Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Bloodborne and then Elden Ring.....which have more in common with Skyrim than anything considered a JRPG these days.

What defines a JRPG?

Noun. JRPG (plural JRPGs) (video games) Initialism of Japanese role-playing game, a traditional genre of role-playing video game generally understood as involving a turn-based combat system, linear gameplay, a pre-determined story and player characters, and an emphasis on narrative and storytelling.

JRPG - Wiktionary​

Generally does not mean obligatory. Words are important my guy. We already had a topic debating this but if you're still stuck in the past sure, but most rational people recognize the simple fact that From Games are jrpgs.

That being said Persona 5 R > all final fantasy trash.

 

[PeteBull]

We got tons of very loyal jrpg fans, we all loved them, some of us even remember snes times, but bulk of western players got to know jrpg genre by late 90s and ff7 ps1 launch, from then on we got so many top quality rpgs in ps1/2 era, in ps3 era it all stumbled, i blame ff13 bomba/bad reviews, pubs saw it and thought genre went to shit, when in reality it was simply bad game/square-enix fuck up.

Its proven by many today's high quality jrpgs, including recent Tales, Star Ocean, Persona, Disgaea and even Yakuza sales.
For game to do good it has to be decent quality, has to have good gameplay mechanics, visuals dont have to be top notch but at least its ok if they arent ugly.

One huge dissapointment is from Sony to not have major first party jrpg, and it has great IP's including Legend of Dragoon and Legend of Legaia, as long as game is 80+ meta i guarantee us jrpg fans would buy many copies of it, hell even if game would get below 80 meta and it had something unique, something we love, we would still buy and praise it, for example i enjoyed SO5 who got really low meta https://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-4/star-ocean-integrity-and-faithlessness but for myself, longterm fan(atic) of the series and the genre, it still fellt like 9,5/10 game and i put into it 120h of amazing fun time.

 

[yurinka]

Back when JRPG were defined by their NES-like turn based combats I think it made sense to differentiate them calling them JRPG, specially when the genre is expanding into many different areas both in the Asian and Western ones.

Franchise sales from wikipedia.

Tier Fus Ro Dah - The Elder Scrolls
Tier 1 - Pokémon
Tier 2 - Final Fantasy
Tier 3 - Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, Diablo, The Witcher
Tier 4 - Fallout, Kingdom Hearts, Megami Tensei, Dark Souls, Tales, Mystery Dungeon, Mass Effect

I don't see this supposed western dominance. Like, not at all.

Well, if we don't count the over a decade old games I'd say it's more like this:
Tier 1 (over 20M copies per game) - Pokemon series, Cyberpunk 2077, Lost Ark (Korean), Elden Ring, Final Fantasy XIV, Horizon series, AC Valhalla
Tier 2 (between around 15-20M) - Monster Hunter series, Lineage II (Korean), Elder Scrolls Online
Tier 3 (between around 10-15M) Final Fantasy XV or VII remake, Dark Souls 3
Tier 4 (between around 5-10M) Kingdom Hearts III, Dragon Quest XI, Yakuza series, Persona 5
Tier 5 (under 5M) Persona series that aren't P5, Bloodborne, Megami Tensei series, Tales series, Fallout 76, Judgement series, Divinity series, Mass Effect: Andromeda, Dragon Age: Inquisition, Fire Emblem series, Ys series, Xenoblade series, Bravely series, Star Ocean series

I don't have the precise numbers but should be something like that.

 

[Black_Stride]

Atelier is at what?
I believe we are at Atelier 24 of the mainline games.

Even Final Fantasy is playing catch up to the queen that is Atelier.

Do they have mass appeal....absolutely not, do they sell to their audience....yes.
And thats all that matters.

Final Fantasy as a series outsells pretty much every RPG in general.

 

[Wildebeest]

Well, if we don't count the over a decade old games I'd say it's more like this:

Fine. If we don't exclude things over a decade old, and things I really consider not an RPG as much as an action-adventure game or a GaaS, my list would also be radically different again.

 

[Drizzlehell]

I played a couple of non-FF jRPGs and they usually were of high quality, sometimes even way better than FF, especially when you compare them to the shittier entries in that series such as FFXIII.

For the most part I do enjoy their gameplay and stories, but I often have to force myself through the stuff that annoys me. Mainly the way the characters are designed and portrayed, along with some other quirks that I guess can be attributed to different cultural sensibilities. I just can't get over the manga aesthetic and utter flamboyance of character designs and their edgy behavior. I often want to slap some sense into those dorks and I find it difficult to empathize with their feeble teenage angst. And I ESPECIALLY despise the chibi style and I honestly get creepy vibes from that kind of shit. There's something really unnerving about this obsession with child-like form and its exaggerated "cuteness".

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Its because most of them are turn-based, and FF just made a name for itself to be among the best in the genre of games. And yes, the genre is not JRPG, its turn-based RPGs.

This is like asking why only GT tends to be able to sell at or more than 10M copies with regards to racing games.

This point will be driven home for when FF16 goes on to sell more than any FF game in the franchise's recent history.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

I’d just like to point out that Persona 5 and its spin-offs sold 7.2M, and 77% of those sales were in the West. So let’s put this notion that “it’s all the ignorant gaijins fault” to rest.

Persona 5's Huge Success Is Down to Western Sales, SEGA Report Reiterates

How the tables turn

www.pushsquare.com

Interestingly, it's regions outside of Japan that account for most of these sales. SEGA's report expands on previous findings, showing that 77 per cent of the aforementioned units were sold overseas. In other words, Persona 5 and its successors have absolutely smashed it in the West.

As for why FF dominates? I think JRPGs have perfected the science of appealing to weebs/otaku. They’re perfectly happy catering to that same audience who reliably buys whatever they put out.

There was a time when the genre was really fresh and innovative, and there was this anticipation that JRPGs were going to take video game storytelling to a new level. That time is long gone.

Final Fantasy is the only one really taking big risks (including big financial risks) and doing something truly exciting. Just think about it. If, say, a new Fire Emblem or Ys or Tales of game is getting announced, how many people are really going to give a shit? Before even looking at it, you already expect it’s going to look like a low budget PS3 game, and play nearly identically to the countless other titles in the series.

 

[Evil Calvin]

Wizardry 1-8 was made by Sir Tech....America. WRPG

Generally does not mean obligatory. Words are important my guy. We already had a topic debating this but if you're still stuck in the past sure, but most rational people recognize the simple fact that From Games are jrpgs.

That being said Persona 5 R > all final fantasy trash.

From games are only JRPG's in the sense they are made by a Japanese company. I grew up playing WPRG's and JRPG's in the 80's until now. From games are 100% in the style of WRPG's. Sorry but it's true.

 

[lh032]

FF16 is going to sell because its not a turn based RPG.

 

[The Cockatrice]

From games are only JRPG's in the sense they are made by a Japanese company. I grew up playing WPRG's and JRPG's in the 80's until now. From games are 100% in the style of WRPG's. Sorry but it's true.

Thats because back then most if not all japanese rpgs were turn based and genres back then were pretty standard. Genres have evolved. Its no longer fair to just call turn based japanese rpg's jrpgs. If you wanna be stuck in the past, then thats your call, but jrpg was never defined or set in stone as turn-based.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Thats because back then most if not all japanese rpgs were turn based and genres back then were pretty standard. Genres have evolved. It’s no longer fair to just call turn based japanese rpg's jrpgs. If you wanna be stuck in the past, then thats your call, but jrpg was never defined or set in stone as turn-based.

Nah there have always been action-based JRPGs since the beginning. Ys, Seiken Densetsu, Tales of, Star Ocean, Kingdom Hearts, etc etc.

 

[Fuz]

but most rational people recognize the simple fact that From Games are jrpgs

Spoiler

 

[The Cockatrice]

action-based JRPGs

Spoiler

 

[rhodesianshepard]

In previous Interviews, Yoshida continuously mentions that he hopes FFXVI sells really well to the masses. I think Yoshida sees Elden Ring or other Fromsoft games that dont have the "JRPG" label and wonders why FF16 is being marketed as a JRPG by gamers?

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

From games are only JRPG's in the sense they are made by a Japanese company. I grew up playing WPRG's and JRPG's in the 80's until now. From games are 100% in the style of WRPG's. Sorry but it's true.

So Zelda franchise is a WRPG?

 

[Sub_Level]

Its just not a popular genre. Doesn’t mean other jrpgs are low quality. If anything, FF on a per-installment basis is probably below average quality.

 

[yurinka]

Fine. If we don't exclude things over a decade old, and things I really consider not an RPG as much as an action-adventure game or a GaaS, my list would also be radically different again.

Many RPGs types, mostly the action RPGs, are a subset of the action-adventures, yes. And MMORPGs, another big part of RPGs, are GaaS yes. And if you remove both from the list would get mostly empty, I assume you'd have to include there tactical rpgs or strategy rpgs instead.

 

[yurinka]

Its just not a popular genre. Doesn’t mean other jrpgs are low quality. If anything, FF on a per-installment basis is probably below average quality.

I listed here several RPGs that sold over 10M copies in the last decade or so, for the current and previous gen, and they are a good amount of them. There's also a good chunk of games that sell around 5-10M. And pretty likely I missed some of them.

Maybe not as popular as the top genres shooter, sports games and open world action adventures, but I'd say that after them probably the most popular genre is RPG.

So Zelda franchise is a WRPG?

Back in the day it was sometimes mentioned a action RPG (ARPG) because considered it a non turn based rpg to differentiate this and other Japanese games from the turn based ones. But I'd say most people refered to it as an action adventure, or adventure game specially nowadays since nowadays many people considers rpgs the games with a playable character and many stats to level up.

 

[Wildebeest]

Many RPGs types, mostly the action RPGs, are a subset of the action-adventures, yes. And MMORPGs, another big part of RPGs, are GaaS yes. And if you remove both from the list would get mostly empty, I assume you'd have to include there tactical rpgs or strategy rpgs instead.

Yes, it might even open up the field so wide that some actual recognizable RPGs might slip through in the lower tiers. Unacceptably racist and discriminatory against women, so I will not do it.

 

[TintoConCasera]

JRPG doesn't mean "an RPG made in JAPAN", they are their own thing, and they are so far of what an actual RPG is that I wouldn't even consider JRPGs to be RPGs, but that's another matter.

Thing is, Dragon's Dogma or From games aren't JRPGs.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Final Fantasy was outselling most RPGs well before FF7. Dragon Quest outsold it in Japan and what FF7 did was make it more of a global brand.

FF7 also destroyed Square Enix in the sense that it twisted their idea of what an rpg should be after that. Before that we got such a wide variety of RPGs that were all high quality more or less. They've been chasing the dragon ever since.

Most other JRPGs have limited budget because it is still a fairly niche genre, so it's very boom or bust, with mostly bust.

Persona 5 is probably the most successful non-FF non-pokemon JRPG in the last decade and it did so by limiting the size and scope of its budget. It's basically a PS3 game that's now been ported onto PS4 and PS5.

Sony tried to put together a FF like budget with Legend of Dragoon and the game barely sold a million copies worldwide, whereas FF7 had sold like 8 million copies...

The more expensive games got to develop the less people are willing to put towards a JRPG.

They try to milk their fanbases with the lowest bdugets possible and some of that is okay. Look at Disgaea for example and some of it isn't look at the Mana remakes or Digimon as shown above or the recent Chrono Cross remaster.

 

[yurinka]

Unacceptably racist and discriminatory against women, so I will not do it.

I don't get it, please develop.

 

[Henry Panic]

DQXI and Persona 5 (plus Royal) sold over 6 million which would put them on par with any Final Fantasy before XV. Kingdom Hearts 3 sold 6.7 million so it's in the same boat.

You're talking about games with multiple releases and side releases with clearance sales to reach what a FF game sold with one release. Also several FF games before XV sold 6M or more.

Bringing up Kingdom Hearts doesn't make sense for the reason in the op, that is being the series is connected to Final Fantasy.

As for why FF dominates? I think JRPGs have perfected the science of appealing to weebs/otaku. They’re perfectly happy catering to that same audience who reliably buys whatever they put out.

There was a time when the genre was really fresh and innovative, and there was this anticipation that JRPGs were going to take video game storytelling to a new level. That time is long gone.

This time never happened outside of that same group of weebs and otskus you mention.

 

[Wildebeest]

I don't get it, please develop.

I'm told being discriminatory about what qualifies as an RPG is the worst sort of bigotry possible and a real red flag.

 

[Henry Panic]

Its because most of them are turn-based, and FF just made a name for itself to be among the best in the genre of games. And yes, the genre is not JRPG, its turn-based RPGs.

PC used to have prominent turn-based toge and the styles were still separated, so no. It's not just turn-based rpg.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I listed here several RPGs that sold over 10M copies in the last decade or so, for the current and previous gen, and they are a good amount of them. There's also a good chunk of games that sell around 5-10M. And pretty likely I missed some of them.

Maybe not as popular as the top genres shooter, sports games and open world action adventures, but I'd say that after them probably the most popular genre is RPG.


Back in the day it was sometimes mentioned a action RPG (ARPG) because considered it a non turn based rpg. But I'd say most people refered to it as an action adventure, or adventure game specially nowadays since nowadays many people considers rpgs the games with a playable character and many stats to level up.

First off, FF15 as of May 2022 has managed ~10M in sales, using your tier system that puts it in Tier 4.

But that's not even what is important.

What is important here is that the monicker of JRPG or WRPG is inherently flawed. Because it speaks more to where a game comes from as opposed to the genre. Whereas,we can have a Japanese developer making a an action RPG just like most western developers do.

It should be TBRPG (turn based/strategy), MMORPG, ARPG (action/adventure)....etc.

As it stands,the best-selling RPGs these days, are the ARPGs (be that first-person or third-person subset). This is why I said the problem here is that the kinda RPGs most Japanese developers prefer to make are Turn-based. Even your tier ist proves this, the `majority` of the games in the 4th and 5th tiers, are turn-based. And Majority in the Tier 1 are MMORPGs or ARPGS.

 

[SmokedMeat]

We can probably make the same argument with some CRPGs.

I don’t think it’s necessarily an East/West thing, but just that people go for their big mainstream brands.

On a side note I just got into the Ys games. I never realized they were action RPGs.

 

[Holammer]

Normal people are slow to accept anime style or excessively Japanese games and JRPG in particular because they are weird. Asian stock characters, storytelling & values don't translate well, which is why they require brutal localization to become palatable. You might be immune and desensitized, but a regular person watching a girl character acting like cute idol will be weirded out.

WTF is a "Sugoy"?!​

So most Japanese developers don't bother, focus on their own market and are content with being a niche product in foreign markets. Except for companies like SEGA and FromSoftware which go all in on international mass market appeal (and reap the rewards).
Square Enix tries too, the upcoming Final Fantasy game borrows heavily from GoT.

 

[Henry Panic]

We can probably make the same argument with some CRPGs.

I don’t think it’s necessarily an East/West thing, but just that people go for their big mainstream brands.

On a side note I just got into the Ys games. I never realized they were action RPGs.

RPGs outside Jrpgs have a much higher average sale through rate.

First off, FF15 as of May 2022 has managed ~10M in sales, using your tier system that puts it in Tier 4.

But that's not even what is important.

What is important here is that the monicker of JRPG or WRPG is inherently flawed. Because it speaks more to where a game comes from as opposed to the genre. Whereas,we can have a Japanese developer making a an action RPG just like most western developers do.

It should be TBRPG (turn based/strategy), MMORPG, ARPG (action/adventure)....etc.

As it stands,the best-selling RPGs these days, are the ARPGs (be that first-person or third-person subset). This is why I said the problem here is that the kinda RPGs most Japanese developers prefer to make are Turn-based. Even your tier ist proves this, the `majority` of the games in the 4th and 5th tiers, are turn-based. And Majority in the Tier 1 are MMORPGs or ARPGS.

There's nothing flawed about either, they came from different styles and game design approaches historically when both were mostly found on separate platforms, and formed when that ended.

It has nothing to do with being turn-based that nonsense came later. Plenty of turn-based Wrpgs were contrasted to turn-based Jrpgs. When a Wrpg in the mast used the Jrpg formula it was obvious and noted in reviews or preview coverage.