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What's preventing other Jrpgs from selling as well as Final Fantasy? Low quality?

Pokemon aside, Final Fantasy has been the only real Jrpg to sell a large number of copies comparable to Wrpgs, Souls, and other major game genre big boys.

Yet for two decades we have had countless releases in the Jrpg category, that rarely can reach even 5M copies 99% of the time. FFXIV sold more than ten alone.

How is it that there hasn't been any improvement outside Squares flagship franchise? What are the other Jrpgs doing wrong that's limiting their audience?

Is it quality? Are Jrpgs for the most part lacking in key areas that only Final Fantasy is meeting? Are the users who like those lesser Jrpgs easily pleased but the general population aren't interested and not willing to overlook the lack in quality? Are Persona and Tales fans playing for the theme and not for good gameplay?

It just seems strange after all this time the closest Jrpg to get near Final Fantasy's pedigree was in the past, Kingdom Hearts, a series with a Disney license and Final Fantasy characters in it. But even that couldn't meet Final Fantasy's consistently high sales output per release.

What are other Jrpgs doing wrong? What's keeping them niche or preventing them from growing?
 
Truth is final fantasy doesn’t really get crazy sales just far better than other JRPG’s and a lot of that has to do with marketing and budget. Ex. Ghost of Tsushima already outsold the last two major final fantasy games in less than half the time.

Also, a lot of JRPG’s are still rooted in niche anime tropes that if you’re not a huge weeb probably aren’t gonna vibe with. Final Fantasy is the only series that tries to diversify its stories and gameplay systems enough to be wide reaching.

I actually expect FFXVI to sell the best even with less platforms just because of the marketing Sony will put into it and it taking more inspiration from stuff like GoT.
 
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The developers say FFXVI isn't even an RPG, at all.

That is not what they said at all

The thing that [Yoshida] wants to get across is that when we are creating games, at least with our team, we don’t go into them thinking that we’re going to be creating JRPGs, we just go into them thinking we’re going to create RPGs.”
 
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brian0057

Banned
Breath of Fire is like Final Fantasy but good.
But the latter has much better marketing.
Hell, Final Fantasy VII even had ads running in movie theaters.
 

feynoob

Banned
Long term series usually sell a lot of copies unlike 1-4 series game.
You gain more userbase on each upcoming sequel.
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
The vast majority of Western gamers store don't play non-West made games. This is doubly true for Americans who generally only consume American media.

When's the last time you watched a TV show or movie not made in Hollywood? Yeah, gaming is the same.
I don't think that's it. I don't think people really care where the game was developed. Plenty of Japanese-developed games are highly successful in the west.

I think it's more the style of gameplay and storytelling. I'm not a fan of JRPGs because I find the action stiff and the dialog overly verbose. I've played a few western-developed rpgs that follow the JRPG model and I dislike them for the same reason. I think Western gamers just want more action than turn-based combat and prose and JRPG don't usually lean that way.
 
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I think JRPGs reached its peak in 90s and then gradually began to decline. Especially with WRPGs being available on consoles.

Also for many years, a lot of JRPGs were exclusive to consoles mainly and thus they failed to grow a community on other platforms unlike WRPGs.
 
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NecrosaroIII

Ask me about my terrible takes on Star Trek characters
Japanese gaming is in decline in general as its native base has basically has forsaken console gaming in favor of mobile gaming. Most of the Japanese developers are thus in a position to either focus on mobile games. So there has been a steep decline in JRPGs being made in general. Those that are left either have become noticeably budget titles, since there aren't enough people buying them to justify higher budgets. Or they try to appeal to shitty western tastes, without really understanding what is popular here or why.
 

NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
The vast majority of Western gamers store don't play non-West made games. This is doubly true for Americans who generally only consume American media.

When's the last time you watched a TV show or movie not made in Hollywood? Yeah, gaming is the same.
This is true to an extent, imo. I've been saying this for a long time. When western devs got the tech and the budgets to make the games they had always wanted to make, Japan was relegated to a side seat so fast.

Final Fantasy was at least partially brought to fame in the west thanks to PlayStation getting it and Nintendo getting a fuck you from Squaresoft, which generated some buzz and got people interested. The game was state-of-the-art and exactly the kind of mature content the PS needed, plus the artstyle was cool and not the unashamedly weeb stuff that would flood the market with the PS2 and has been the staple of the genre since then. Even Japan was just waiting for the tech to bring anime to video games, and they got it with cel-shading and the high polygon count of the 6th gen. No wonder the JRPG fad of the PS1 era ended quite abruptly and the genre never really recovered and it's been tainted ever since. The shift in tone from the PS1 JRPGs to the garish designs of FFX and the unquestionably anime look of Tales of Symphonia and such is incredible.

With FF7, FF became the zeitgeist for a few years and got a few people into the genre. But the series itself quickly lost what had made it big in the west, and the others were never that big even at their zenith. I doubt even Dragon Quest would ever have generated so much hoopla if 8 wasn't so pretty and the earlier games were never remade for the DS. Seeing Toriyama's designs shine with modern tech was a big boost for the series.

The bottom line is, JRPGs were never really that big outside of FF in its PS1 and early PS2 days, and when they stepped heavily into anime territory they quickly lost what had briefly made them interesting for the western audience. Square themselves giving Nomura unbridled freedom over the designs and the plots of their top IPs didn't do any favors to them, as well.
 

Crayon

Member
Final Fantasy was there from the beginning and acheived a real "must-play" status by the mid nineties. A lot of jrpg fans will pick and choose different games, but when it comes to final fantasy, you can't skip it. Even if they have a dud, you have to get it.

Sort of like in fgc how pretty much everyone can play street fighter at least at a basic level. Even if you don't like the current game, it's a defacto standard-bearer. Nobody at a tekken tournament is going to not know how to do a flash kick motion (a move not present in tekken). And nobody into jrps is going to ask who Tifa is.
 
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Pejo

Member
Let's be clear here, Final Fantasy has been selling on name and pedigree since probably 10 (even though I loved 11 and 12).

Other JRPGs try too hard to appeal to too many demographics instead of just trying to make the best game that they can make. This is obviously an over-generalization, but smaller games that are more focused like Octopath Traveler 2 are enjoying a pretty decent success considering the budget. Also mainline Persona games always do well.
 
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BreakOut

Member
Man I miss Final Fantasy. I wish they would bring that series back. It sucks they decided to stop making the mainline games.
FF16 is not Final Fantasy, it’s dragon age 2
 
People grew up with this series.

People grew up with many series.

I'd assume it's the same thing that's preventing other shooters from selling as well as Call of Duty.

If you remove Call of Duty you still have blockbuster selling games. Selling over 8M copies or more. 5M being easy for many ip.

If you remove Final Fantasy from Jrpgs you don't have any sellers like that, and most can barely sell 3M and are a big deal if they pass 5M as only a few do.
 

Fbh

Member
Brand recognition + high production values + big marketing push.
FF is a well known name that has been around for a long time, multiple generations have grown up playing these games.
Then you've got high production values with graphics that are ahead most if not all other JRPG's.
Then you have a strong marketing push like in the case of FFXV where there weren't only ads but the game also showed up on multiple Sony/MS conferences, they had free prequel shorts on youtube, 2 demos, a high budget CGI movie with people like Aaon Paul and Sean Bean, etc

To a lesser extent I think it has also benefited from not going all in on anime. The aesthetic is very japanese but it has kept a focus on a "stylized" realism instead of going all in on the cell shaded anime look like most other games in the genre

How has Persona 5 sold compared to, say, FF15?

Persona 5 has sold around 8.3 million units which includes both the OG release as well as the Royal re-release
For comparison FFXV has sold "over 10 million" copies as of May of 2022
 
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Its why i always laugh at people that groan about square enix changing and trying to innovate with FF. Final Fantasy is one of the few AAA Japanese games that manage to keep up with whats going on in the west. Even when they falter they are still event games, you can’t say that about many franchises still, running for that long.
 

Astral Dog

Member
"JRPG" overall is still a niche genre, and i can guess there are a few reasons why other brands haven't been as popular.

One is that Final Fantasy was THE JRPG, the King and innovator for so many years, it build a fanbase at a time when other games weren't even released outside of Japan.

Other reason is the artsyle,Final Fantasy is known for its groundbreaking visuals and realistic art direction, other games go for a more cartoonish look, thus Final Fantasy appeals to people who aren't so much into Anime.

And today,games like Kingdom Hearts stand alongside Final Fantasy in terms of impact so its not the only one ,and you have brands like Persona becoming more and more popular as well,in terms if variety we are in a good place
 

Mozzarella

Member
I'm starting to adapt to calling all of them RPGs lately, i know its a broad term that houses a lot of different games but i honestly feel its better, its just easier than all these nuances.

As for your question, i believe its a mixture of things.
1- IP legacy: Sometime the name of a product alone does boost sales, imagine how lower sales Ubisoft will have if they changed the name of Assassin's Creed recent trilogy to something new, because lets face it, those are not AC games at all. But they kept the same name because it will boost sales. Same goes for Final Fantasy, its an old respected IP, compared to lets say Octopath Traveler, who does even recognize that outside of gaming enthusiast forums?
2- Quality of Production: Obviously the higher the budget the better presentation and visuals get, and thats a big deal nowadays, the only exception being special type of indies, but when you invest in a big budget game, you do get a boost in sales, other RPG games that come from Japan may follow the same formula but they lack the budget to back that up with top presentation and visuals.
3- Niche type of game: The majority of the RPGs that you are comparing it to are games that rely on niche fandom, its probably more heavy on dialogue and more basic on gameplay and that means it can lose wide appeal, because a lot of gamers today are not going to sit there and stomach a 50+hour RPG that keeps showering you with voiceless dialogue while throwing at you basic gameplay components that are from the 90's, so a big portion of those games are just not going to find bigger audiences today with people preferring more cinematic storytelling, more voiceovers, more changes in gameplay, more serious presentation.
4- And finally im not totally sure of this but its probably the quantity, there's a lot of games today and its harder to devote yourself to all of them so people are more selective, i personally skip a lot of the RPGs you are talking about because they are long and i already played the superior SNES/PS1 version (IMO okay?)

Persona 5 managed to sell really well because it was stylish enough to stand out, and its also an old IP so i dont think its a good example but honestly? lets not kid ourselves this happens with all RPGs regardless of place of origins, show me how well Wasteland 3 sold, and thats an established IP so imagine new ones, without big marketing and without new innovative mechanics any RPG in the world is not going to sell well, especially if its old style, like isometric, RTWP or Turn based.
 
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JPSLotus97T

Member
It's a niche genre in the West and has been going back to the 90s. Final Fantasy is the series that really broke out of the mold when 7 came out originally.

I'd also say its difficult to know when JRPG's are coming out, or are out because there's so little publicity surrounding the releases. There are titles on the PS4 that I only ever found out about by scrolling through pages of products listings on Amazon or other sites. I get these games don't have marketing budgets that a mainline FF game will get, but there's got to be a better way to raise awareness that they exist.
 

Kacho

Gold Member
Final Fantasy has brand recognition with normies. Even in decline Final Fantasy is monster compared to the others.

Persona is for weebs and people posting in the waifu thread.
 

IDKFA

I am Become Bilbo Baggins
That could be because Final Fantasy is the God tier of JRPG games and no other JRPG comes close to it. Most other JRPG games just pale in comparison to Final Fantasy.

Look at FFXV. It's one of the greatest RPG games ever made and easily my number one JRPG by a large margin. It's a difficult task to ask any developer in the world to try and get close to that level.
 

Evil Calvin

Afraid of Boobs
It's because of the same old tropes

Lots of politics, internal strife, family issues, end of the world scenarios......all with a party of unlikeable characters, many scantily-clad (and underage looking and sounding) characters, with grating voice acting (whether English or in Japanese).

Turned based battles isn't really the issue here, as many western RPG's did (and do that) like Wizardry and other hybrids like the isometric Pillars of Eternity and Divinity Original Sin. Western RPG's also moved more toward either first-person RPG/action like Skyrim and Fallout.

Some Japanese produced RPG's tried a hybrid like FF15 and Xenoblade Chronicles but for the most part they are still stuck in the 90's early 2000's cringey formula.
 

ChorizoPicozo

Gold Member
That could be because Final Fantasy is the God tier of JRPG games and no other JRPG comes close to it. Most other JRPG games just pale in comparison to Final Fantasy.

Look at FFXV. It's one of the greatest RPG games ever made and easily my number one JRPG by a large margin. It's a difficult task to ask any developer in the world to try and get close to that level.
joke post?
 
For the most part, a lot of new JRPGs look straight out of PS2 era graphics. Considering at some point they were the pinnacle of modern graphics its hard to justify those flat textures in today's gaming world. Example:

Digimon World PS1 (1999)
tC5meMC.jpg


Digimon World Next Order PS4 (2017)
JXuS9NU.jpg


So in almost 20 years worth of tech advancements it almost feels like we went backwards on some JRPGs (not mocking new Digimon, I still like them). So this is definitely a budget issue which is expected once you are not the main genre anymore.
 

Evil Calvin

Afraid of Boobs
Elden Ring sold 20 million. It was a huge success.
That's not a JRPG-style game.

From Software was one of the first Japanese developers to embrace the western RPG formula. They even stated that Wizardry was an influence on their games. They created the King's Field series which definitely pays homage to Wizardry and is more in the western RPG style and not really at all in the JRPG style. They continued on and followed that formula and style up with Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Bloodborne and then Elden Ring.....which have more in common with Skyrim than anything considered a JRPG these days.

What defines a JRPG?

Noun. JRPG (plural JRPGs) (video games) Initialism of Japanese role-playing game, a traditional genre of role-playing video game generally understood as involving a turn-based combat system, linear gameplay, a pre-determined story and player characters, and an emphasis on narrative and storytelling.


JRPG - Wiktionary

 
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Mozzarella

Member
That's not a JRPG-style game.

From Software was one of the first Japanese developers to embrace the western RPG formula. They even stated that Wizardry was an influence on their games. They created the King's Field series which definitely pays homage to Wizardry and is more in the western RPG style and not really at all in the JRPG style. They continued on and followed that formula and style up with Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Bloodborne and then Elden Ring.....which have more in common with Skyrim than anything considered a JRPG these days.
You mean Ultima right?
Ultima -> WRPG
Wizardy -> JRPG
 

Sakura

Member
That's not a JRPG-style game.

From Software was one of the first Japanese developers to embrace the western RPG formula. They even stated that Wizardry was an influence on their games. They created the King's Field series which definitely pays homage to Wizardry and is more in the western RPG style and not really at all in the JRPG style. They continued on and followed that formula and style up with Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Bloodborne and then Elden Ring.....which have more in common with Skyrim than anything considered a JRPG these days.

What defines a JRPG?

Noun. JRPG (plural JRPGs) (video games) Initialism of Japanese role-playing game, a traditional genre of role-playing video game generally understood as involving a turn-based combat system, linear gameplay, a pre-determined story and player characters, and an emphasis on narrative and storytelling.

JRPG - Wiktionary

Well if it says it on Wiktionary it must be true.
 

Azelover

Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
Don't ask me. I'm of the opinion that the last Final Fantasy that wasnt shit was X.

I even bought XII and XIII out of faith.

Never again.
 
Pokemon aside, Final Fantasy has been the only real Jrpg to sell a large number of copies comparable to Wrpgs, Souls, and other major game genre big boys.

Yet for two decades we have had countless releases in the Jrpg category, that rarely can reach even 5M copies 99% of the time. FFXIV sold more than ten alone.

How is it that there hasn't been any improvement outside Squares flagship franchise? What are the other Jrpgs doing wrong that's limiting their audience?

Is it quality? Are Jrpgs for the most part lacking in key areas that only Final Fantasy is meeting? Are the users who like those lesser Jrpgs easily pleased but the general population aren't interested and not willing to overlook the lack in quality? Are Persona and Tales fans playing for the theme and not for good gameplay?

It just seems strange after all this time the closest Jrpg to get near Final Fantasy's pedigree was in the past, Kingdom Hearts, a series with a Disney license and Final Fantasy characters in it. But even that couldn't meet Final Fantasy's consistently high sales output per release.

What are other Jrpgs doing wrong? What's keeping them niche or preventing them from growing?
They have fucking weird worlds and storys, sense of humor and artstyles to be perfectly honest.
There is enough stuff i can accept but even FF made me cringe hard and drop FF13 (transformer summons) and FF15 (exaggerated anime like fight against leviathan).

Thats mostly my issue with those games.
Also I'm not a kid anymore and don't like lolistuff, harem shit or furrymania in their games.
Which pretty much reduces the JRPG stuff i can deal with nowadays.
 

Wildebeest

Member
Franchise sales from wikipedia.

Tier Fus Ro Dah - The Elder Scrolls
Tier 1 - Pokémon
Tier 2 - Final Fantasy
Tier 3 - Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, Diablo, The Witcher
Tier 4 - Fallout, Kingdom Hearts, Megami Tensei, Dark Souls, Tales, Mystery Dungeon, Mass Effect

I don't see this supposed western dominance. Like, not at all.
 
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Franchise sales from wikipedia.

Tier 1 - Pokémon
Tier 2 - Final Fantasy
Tier 3 - Monster Hunter, Dragon Quest, The Elder Scrolls, Diablo, The Witcher
Tier 4 - Fallout, Kingdom Hearts, Megami Tensei, Dark Souls, Tales, Mystery Dungeon, Mass Effect

I don't see this supposed western dominance. Like, not at all.

Don’t you know? Skyrim >>>>>>>>>>>*
 
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Because Final Fantasy 7 changed everything, and its legacy cemented the brand in the minds of gamers regardless of the quality of subsequent titles.
I basically came here to post this exact sentiment. Final Fantasy outsells other JRPGs because of name recognition based on the the success of FF7. Also, FF has moved away from manga/anime inspired art, whereas most of their competitors are very anime and lots of people are not into anime.
 
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