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What the hell happened to the Japanese and their culture of pushing the limits and innovation? They are just a shadow of its former self

.Pennywise

Banned
There's not a single western game this year better than Elden Ring and Xenoblade Chronicles 3. So wth are you even talking about.
I think you're bringing too much subjectivity at this point.

This has already been discussed to hell and back. AAA gaming is creatively bankrupt because of the rise of development costs. Games cost too much to produce nowadays and you can't risk it making a novel concept that might fail and lose millions. This is why we get COD and RE year after year instead or lets say Killer 7.
Shall we look at AA and indie games then?

I think it remains the exact same, if not worse...
 
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Dr_Salt

Member
Shall we look at AA and indie games then?

I think it remains the exact same, if not worse...
I have no idea what you are talking about. Indie and AA games are the ones pushing novel concepts these days.
Something like Phasmophobia is a game you will never see a AAA developer produce.
 

Flutta

My tears. Exclusive to gamepass. Forever.
I mean the western gaming scene is also shifting to the worse. MTX, digital renting, streaming etc etc. You really think that this trend wont have an affect on how games are developed?

Gaming as a whole is fucked. We have Nintendo that is somewhat still traditional. Sony is getting worse by the day chasing trends. MS only mission is to destroy their compition by any means while pretending they care about ”gamers”.
 

.Pennywise

Banned
I have no idea what you are talking about. Indie and AA games are the ones pushing novel concepts these days.
Something like Phasmophobia is a game you will never see a AAA developer produce.
I'm talking about looking at indie and AA games from Japan/East and compare then to West. There, you named a Western game. Now go see if there are Japanese games that innovate as much as these indie and AA games.

AAA games I know are bankrupt creatively everywhere. But even there, Western games that are AAA at least push in the graphics side.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Also:
Dragon Lighting GIF by Xbox

Elden Ring is such good GIF material.
I really need to sort my CPU you out so I can start making GIFs again.
 

.Pennywise

Banned
The OP keeps mentioning to 'get with the times'. Western games are stuck in open world, battle royale mode. Its funny the OP mentions combat when outside of FPS games - western combat gameplay is almost guaranteed subpar and the weakest part of their games.
Well, the last big combat innovation and "go to" system was brought by the Arkham series, a Western game. And even then, I'm not saying Western games have all good combat, at all. And it's easy to see one of the best combat systems are from Japan itself, with the likes of DMC/Bayonetta style of combat, or the slow focused Souls-like stuff, regardless of taste.
HOWEVER, when I see the average Western game, I could easily see more diversity, while when I see at the average Japanese game, I end up with a weird Turn Based system shoved off 80% of games.

If that's the case please give me an example of a better western game so far, because I wanna play it.
No, because your tastes are not mine. And seeing how you like more Eastern games, you'll always find them better. Which is not wrong at all. My discussion goes other way.
 
It's the west that has the bigger problem. How many of them put out high quality games? The biggest publishers like activision, ea and ubisoft have been total wank for over a decade. Take two have milked GTA online to death but I'll give them a pass because they gave us red dead 2. The western gaming landscape is looking like a gaas infested cash grab. Even sony are jumping on that ship with 10 live service games in development.
 
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MHubert

Member
As far as I know, money existed in the 90s and 2000s.
back then games pushing the production boundries didn't cost a 3 digit million dollar figure. Most of the indie games you call trash cost more to make than the highest budget productions back in the 90's and 20's
 
.Pennywise .Pennywise I've noticed you tend to only reply to the posters who you feel are wrong and then state that your question isn't fully being answered, when there are around 25 posts on the first page that go in detail to explain all of the changes, trials, and problems the Japanese gaming industry is going through, including the overall shift to mobile gaming.

Either your forum block list is sky high or I suppose you aren't satisfied with the truth of the matter. I don't know what else can be added that hasn't already been said on the first page, aside from personal points of view of course.
 

Represent.

Member
Thanks for making this thread. They have been putting out ugly, uninspired drivel for over a decade now.

Every action game has the same look and feel.

Horrible tech and graphics from all of their studios, KojimaPro being the execption, Capcom RE studio as well.

When was the last time I said WOW at a Japenese game reveal. Its all been horrible. For a long ass time.

A studio like TEAM NINJA used to be at the very forefront of gameplay and graphics/tech fusion with Ninja Gaiden. Now all of their games look like PS3 games. They have all fallen off a fucking cliff.
 

Cyberpunkd

Gold Member
The bubble burst.
The bubble burst late 1980s, almost a decade before FF7 and the gold age of PS2 jRPGSs, it's not that.

The reason is simple and similar to anime: videogames and anime became niche in Japan, so companies know if they do not pander to current client base they will not sell anything. It's that client base that demands the same things over and over again.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
All you got to do is look at the Media Create sales lists to see what games sell in Japan.

Very limited set of games. Basically Nintendo first party, JRPG, anything resembling Pokemon or Monster Hunter and obscure Japanese games. Some reason that's kind of it. The games skew to a small set of franchises or genres and always skew to anime/cartoony styles. Although oddly, Resident Evil and Gran Turismo still sell.

On the other hand, you see USA or Europe top sellers and it's a wide breadth of genres and franchises, and can also include games like FF or Kingdom Hearts or Pokemon.
 

.Pennywise

Banned
.Pennywise .Pennywise I've noticed you tend to only reply to the posters who you feel are wrong and then state that your question isn't fully being answered, when there are around 25 posts on the first page that go in detail to explain all of the changes, trials, and problems the Japanese gaming industry is going through, including the overall shift to mobile gaming.

Either your forum block list is sky high or I suppose you aren't satisfied with the truth of the matter. I don't know what else can be added that hasn't already been said on the first page, aside from personal points of view of course.
No lol. In fact, the mobile argument might be the best answer, since that would answer why they stopped making graphical innovations. Still, doesn't answer why they remain so adamant in making, remaking, and rehashing the same old gameplay and using the same old styles, with little to no innovation as to what they used to.
Moreso, their adoption of online play should have been way better than they are, since mobile is a non-multiplayer friendly scenario other than through online play.

EDIT: other of the answers I find the most plausible is the one that says Japanese are way too adamant to their own culture and closed themselves up to only do what they like. While Western companies try to appeal to the majority and more diverse people as they could, Japanese seem to only catter to their own tastes and that's why you'd see JRPG after JRPG after JRPG, after farmville-like after farmville-like, after anime-style after anime-style, etc.
 
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Dr_Salt

Member
I'm talking about looking at indie and AA games from Japan/East and compare then to West. There, you named a Western game. Now go see if there are Japanese games that innovate as much as these indie and AA games.

AAA games I know are bankrupt creatively everywhere. But even there, Western games that are AAA at least push in the graphics side.
I can't comment on those as I don't play japanese indie games but i'm sure there must be a couple of good ones.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
No lol. In fact, the mobile argument might be the best answer, since that would answer why they stopped making graphical innovations. Still, doesn't answer why they remain so adamant in making, remaking, and rehashing the same old gameplay and using the same old styles, with little to no innovation as to what they used to.
Moreso, their adoption of online play should have been way better than they are, since mobile is a non-multiplayer friendly scenario other than through online play.

EDIT: other of the answers I find the most plausible is the one that says Japanese are way too adamant to their own culture and closed themselves up to only do what they like. While Western companies try to appeal to the majority and more diverse people as they could, Japanese seem to only catter to their own tastes and that's why you'd see JRPG after JRPG after JRPG, after farmville-like after farmville-like, after anime-style after anime-style, etc.
Do JRPGs still have the blue text boxes with white fonts? A staple of JRPGs from the 80s.
 

.Pennywise

Banned
I can't comment on those as I don't play japanese indie games but i'm sure there must be a couple of good ones.
Ding ding! Then why do you think not a single indie Japanese game crossed before your eyes and/or interest...?

It's exactly what I'm stating. You'd still find a lot of weird innovative stuff in the indie and AA space, but from the West, alas if you go to the indie Japanese side of games, you'd be looking at a ffffffff-ton of JRPGs-lites that you'd have a really hard time distinguishing between each other because of their same-y artstlyle (kind of what happened with a lot of some indie pixel art games here).
 
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Holammer

Member
Others explained it, but the Japanese economy fk'n died in 1991. It's been a low wage country since, but as budgets increased they were increasingly unable to keep up with the competition. Remember how Kojima said he was depressed over GTA5's quality?

Some companies in the game industry have recently improved wages considerably to protect themselves from foreign headhunters setting up new studios. Others have opened up to the idea of getting foreign investors to fund development. You can probably figure out what companies and games I'm coquettishly referencing.
 

Dr_Salt

Member
Ding ding! Then why do you think not a single indie Japanese game crossed before your eyes and/or interest...?

It's exactly what I'm stating. You'd still find a lot of weird innovative stuff in the indie and AA space, but from the West, alas if you go to the indie Japanese side of games, you'd be looking at a ffffffff-ton of JRPGs-lites that you'd have a really hard time distinguishing between each other because of their same-y artstlyle (kind of what happened with a lot of some indie pixel art games here).
Well my friend I don't play much indie games at all. This one is one I have my eyes set to and its from Japan:
 

rodrigolfp

Member
For hardware it's ease. Intel, AMD, Nvidia >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Japan.

For games, I don't know. Only Nintendo tries some "new" controllers (gyro).
 

Woopah

Member
It's fair to say that Japanese publishers have not been able to keep up with the ballooning costs of game development.

But to say 80% of them are turned based or the same is not true. We have seen a wide variety of Japanese games released and announced this year.

Likewise the answer isn't mobile, as western publishers are also embracing mobile.
 
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Kataploom

Member
No lol. In fact, the mobile argument might be the best answer, since that would answer why they stopped making graphical innovations. Still, doesn't answer why they remain so adamant in making, remaking, and rehashing the same old gameplay and using the same old styles, with little to no innovation as to what they used to.
Moreso, their adoption of online play should have been way better than they are, since mobile is a non-multiplayer friendly scenario other than through online play.

EDIT: other of the answers I find the most plausible is the one that says Japanese are way too adamant to their own culture and closed themselves up to only do what they like. While Western companies try to appeal to the majority and more diverse people as they could, Japanese seem to only catter to their own tastes and that's why you'd see JRPG after JRPG after JRPG, after farmville-like after farmville-like, after anime-style after anime-style, etc.
Sure these games play just like their previous entries with no innovations at all... or even like their entire genre that are doing the same exact thing... right?


Edit: Well, that's why you see survival simulator after survival simulator, shooter after shooter, after shooter, after shooter... after another bunch of shooters (western normies like shooting things for some reason...), and most of them trying to go realism, same old boring realism (unless budget gets short).

Yes, it's a cultural thing, you don't like it? It's a personal problem you have with their view, not a problem THEY have lol
 
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BotW, Death Stranding, Elden Ring and FF7:R probably disagree with your take OP.

But as the most ppl surmised already, it's all about getting MO.

MO MOney, MO MObile.

Pay Me Damon Wayans GIF by For(bes) The Culture
 

lachesis

Member
Stagnation & deflation in economy is the reason... and their culture, revolved around that stagnation for past 30 years.
In short, they don't have money like they used to in the bubble days - and consoles and other stuff became secondary.

Some people still think of Japan as one of top bleeding edge, technologically advanced country - but no. I think they are actually stuck in 90s.
Infrastructure and all.

Quite fascinating place it is, and love visiting there for nostalgia kick - but sometimes I feel sad because they are so old and dying out.
"Mono no aware" in literal sense, I guess.
 

Griffon

Member
What are you smoking OP? Nintendo, Capcom, Namco and Square Enix are still huge and putting out amazing games every year.

Where were you when Namco and Fromsoftware published Elden Ring and everybody and their dogs where playing/talking about it nonstop?
 

Astral Dog

Member
Some guys here are trying really hard to blame Japanese developers/companies for "lack of ambition", lazyness, cash grabs or whatever, but i don't believe they are at fault. Its just not that simple.

Game development is not the same as 10,15 or 20 years ago, there's way more complexity,time, risk and money involved. They are just trying to adapt the best way they can to the changing market, they can try to follow and release high production AAA games with western trends but that's taking a big risk(see Resident Evil 6)even if they make money, its an endless path of wasting budget and dividing their audience.

Japanese core games are simply less supported overall than western ones by the market, even if they make them right, zero chance even titles with big fanbases like Resident Evil, Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy brand will sell as much as any God of War, The Witcher and Uncharted, so their option is change the presentation drastically, taking a big risk, not making the games they want or adjusting their budgets accordingly. Some of the biggest Japanese brands like Monster Hunter or now Elden Ring have strictly different presentation than typical Anime(excluding MH spinoffs) Final Fantasy XIV hit the jackpot with MMO though.

Even high quality games like Bayonetta were rejected by most gamers and failed to meet expectations, it simply was too 'Japanese'

On one hand Sony started sucking up to the west and ignoring Japanese developers that aren't as big as Square Enix or Capcom in favor of big western brands, Nintendo is there selling a portable system were the message is you don't need as much risky AAA budget as long as the games are quality, so their audience is fragmented, that's not gonna change anytime soon.

Its not anyone's fault or the end of the world, it simply how the market has evolved, nothing less.
 
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Reallink

Member
BY FAR the biggest fall and greatest mystery of Japanese culture is how Team Ninja went from making DOA2 and Ninja Gaiden in the early 2000s that legit looked like PS360 games...to making FF Origins in 2022 that legit looks like a PS360 game.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Some guys here are trying really hard to blame Japanese developers/companies for "lack of ambition", lazyness, cash grabs or whatever, but i don't believe they are at fault. Its just not that simple.

Game development is not the same as 10,15 or 20 years ago, there's way more complexity,time, risk and money involved. They are just trying to adapt the best way they can to the changing market, they can try to follow and release high production AAA games with western trends but that's taking a big risk(see Resident Evil 6)even if they make money, its an endless path of wasting budget and dividing their audience.

Japanese core games are simply less supported overall than western ones by the market, even if they make them right, zero chance even titles with big fanbases like Resident Evil, Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy brand will sell as much as any God of War, The Witcher and Uncharted, so their option is change the presentation drastically, taking a big risk, not making the games they want or adjusting their budgets accordingly. Some of the biggest Japanese brands like Monster Hunter or now Elden Ring have strictly different presentation than typical Anime(excluding MH spinoffs) Final Fantasy XIV hit the jackpot with MMO though.

Even high quality games like Bayonetta were rejected by most gamers and failed to meet expectations, it simply was too 'Japanese'

On one hand Sony started sucking up to the west and ignoring Japanese developers that aren't as big as Square Enix or Capcom in favor of big western brands, Nintendo is there selling a portable system were the message is you don't need as much risky AAA budget as long as the games are quality, so their audience is fragmented, that's not gonna change anytime soon.

Its not anyone's fault or the end of the world, it simply how the market has evolved, nothing less. Support the content that you like, im anticipating a bunch of high quality games coming soon!
I think what happened is they didnt evolve over time. Thats why they never got the big money like some of the giant western game companies are now. The latter grew a lot, while Capcom, Konami, Namco barely budged.

Back during the 80s, 90s and even PS2 era, Japanese games were toe to tow with whatever US/European devs made on console. But the latter strived for bigger games, more detail, and all the hardcore and detailed PC devs came over when they felt consoles could handle their more complex games. Japanese devs never evolved the same as US/Euro companies.

It's not even about how big budget the games are. Just the types of games (genre), Japanese gamers skew to certain ones forever when the rest of the world can play just about any genre, indie game, big name game, or if the franchise was historically console based or PC based. Even for modes of play (SP vs MP) in a typical game, I bet Japanese gamer skew to SP while the rest of the world is more competitive focusing on head to head online play.
 
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Astral Dog

Member
I think what happened is they didnt evolve over time. Thats why they never got the big money like some of the giant western game companies are now. The latter grew a lot, while Capcom, Konami, Namco barely budged.

Back during the 80s, 90s and even PS2 era, Japanese games were toe to tow with whatever US/European devs made on console. But the latter strived for bigger games, more detail, and all the hardcore and detailed PC devs came over when they felt consoles could handle their more complex games. Japanese devs never evolved the same as US/Euro companies.

It's not even about how big budget the games are. Just the types of games (genre), Japanese gamers skew to certain ones forever when the rest of the world can play just about any genre, indie game, big name game, or if the franchise was historically console based or PC based. Even for modes of play (SP vs MP) in a typical game, I bet Japanese gamer skew to SP while the rest of the world is more competitive focusing on head to head online play.
Yep that's a good point, there is a big defference in genres, but i hope no one here is talking about Japanese developers going too far in that direction! 😲 imo they are good as they are

Splatoon 3 and FFXIV are good examples of hit games pushing multiplayer online, and no doubt more will come in the future
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Yep that's a good point, there is a big defference in genres, but i hope no one here is talking about Japanese developers going too far in that direction! imo they are good as they are

Splatoon 3 and FFXIV are good examples of hit games pushing multiplayer online, and no doubt more will come in the future
There's also surely going to be influence on whats been available to skew gamers to western games which makes them more money.

Western gamers grew up with a mix of console and computer gaming. Although consoles always skewed to platformer and arcadey games which were heavily based on Japanese games, PC is totally different kinds of games. So for many of us, we grew up playing all kinds of games.

However, I think Japanese gamers have historically been focused on Japanese made arcade and console games. Not much of anything else. I dont think PC gaming has ever been big there. So for that market, they never got exposed to such a wide breadth of genres and games across hardware from when gaming ramped up in the 80s. Foe example, how many gamers in Japan played Ultima or other archaic WRPGs on Apple or PC or Commodore? Probably not many.
 

The_Mike

Member
There was a time in the '90s and very early '00s where looking at Japan was like looking through a window right into the future. You would see all this new technology only them would have and you couldn't believe how advanced they were compared to the rest of the world. It was dreamlike to just think of this country.
Sounds like you had tinted glasses on like a child.

I can imagine it was mind blowing from previous gens to PS1, but wasn't any special if you had a decent pc back then.
 
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Vaelka

Member
Are we going to pretend like the West is super innovative atm?...

I think Capcom have released some really good-looking and fresh games especially with DMC5 and the RE remakes.
It's also worth noting that PC isn't as common in Japan and they play more on the go I think, more into hand-held devices to play games on.

What I love the most about Japanese games is the variety.
The variety also means tho that they won't get the same funding I think.
Because they're riskier.
I think anyone who says Japanese games aren't more varied and diverse than Western games is fucking insane, both in tone and gameplay they have so much more variety.

Innovation also means bigger risks. Games nowadays don't cost 10 dollars to make.
Also...Elden Ring doesn't deserve to be in this conversation. It's a good game but in no way it innovates or pushes any limits, lmao.

It's a souls game in an unnoptimized open world game.

But it's interesting, TGS was a much more exciting time than the entire June month to me. September has been delivering big time and 99% of it all comes from Japan and asian coutries in general.

As much as I did enjoy Elden Ring, I do agree with you.
The God of War reboot did the same thing too when it became '' more serious face '', the reboot is a checklist of popular video game tropes.
Elden Ring did the same but with the Souls franchise.
 
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