• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

What if last gen hardware does not hold back games?

Haggard

Banned
Obviously it would be things that can be scaled down... Like framerate.
And obviously those things aren`t what make a game next gen. you are talking about the superficial "bells and whistles" layer which could basically be slapped on everything since the beginning of software without making the core game any more next gen than before.
 
Last edited:

BlackTron

Member
Lol, your analogys are completely wrong. Im sure developers could explain in detail what the situation is.
I thought there might be somone with some knowledge of development on GAF.

It's not that complicated, I already told you. This doesn't require a complex answer.

Again, the very instant they need to factor in the old chip, it has a massive effect on development.

Just imagine if when making a Gamecube game, they designed it in such a way that only the graphics changed, the game itself was identical to an N64 version. It's almost laughable to think about.

No matter what they do in the game, they have to say "remember, we have to make this work on an old CPU and video card". At that point, they are old games runner in higher FPS/res on the newer systems, NOT NEW GEN GAMES.
 
Last edited:

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
It's not that complicated, I already told you. This doesn't require a complex answer.

Again, the very instant they need to factor in the old chip, it has a massive effect on development.

Just imagine if when making a Gamecube game, they designed it in such a way that only the graphics changed, the game itself was identical. It's almost laughable to think about.

No matter what they do in the game, they have to say "remember, we have to make this work on an old CPU and video card". At that point, they are old games runner in higher FPS/res on the newer systems, NOT NEW GEN GAMES.

Im interested to learn about specific examples. You might not, but I do.
 

Haggard

Banned
I never said they did.
Read my Op again, the point was that devs may be able to achieve what they want to for the game without having to ditch last gen.
If a dev can do everything he wants on last gen then the game design itself is last gen, no matter how many layers of graphical splendor are tacked on top of it......like Last of Us Part 1 f.e.
 
Last edited:

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
If a dev can do everything he wants on last gen then the game design itself is last gen, no matter how many layers of graphical splendor are tacked on top of it......like Last of Us Part 1 f.e.
It could be the case this gen with some games.
I mean it could of happend last gen too, but maybe this gen devs and pubs think its worth it because the experience is not diminished on the new platforms.

I mean if Rockstar had a plan for GTA6 with there RAGE 9 engine and they trageted it for current gen, but they found out they could get it to work on last gen too without comprising the experience, why wouldn't they release on last gen?
 

Haggard

Banned
It could be the case this gen with some games.
I mean it could of happend last gen too, but maybe this gen devs and pubs think its worth it because the experience is not diminished on the new platforms.

I mean if Rockstar had a plan for GTA6 with there RAGE 9 engine and they trageted it for current gen, but they found out they could get it to work on last gen too without comprising the experience, why wouldn't they release on last gen?
My reply is identical, as is the issue:
"If a dev can do everything he wants on last gen then the game design itself is last gen, no matter how many layers of graphical splendor are tacked on top of it......like Last of Us Part 1 f.e."

If Rockstar gets GTA6 to run on PS4 then they haven`t used the power of the current gen in any meaningful way and we get another last gen GTA with prettier graphics.
 

BlackTron

Member
Im interested to learn about specific examples. You might not, but I do.

Imagine someone advising you that it's impossible to run PS3 games on PS2 due to the insane performance gulf, and asking for specific examples as to why it's not possible.

I see the same thing here, I'm sorry but it comes off as kind of silly and trying to hold on to this notion that it MIGHT not make a difference.

Let me first remind you that a major pillar of strength for consoles was having a standardized hardware spec to make games that focused on the unique hardware. What we have now is a situation where everything must be made in a very scalable way like a PC game designed to hit low end targets that also scales up with bells and whistles. In the context of PC, trying to hit those lower targets absolutely affects game design, now it can happen on consoles too. The situation is pretty crappy because these days games tend to be made for console first, and consoles are held back by these Jaguar CPUs, which is a worse bottleneck than they would account for in the PC space. Basically, they want to put out games on everything, that means they have to spec the game for the lowest common denominator (Jaguar chips) and then scale up depending on how much additional power you have.

If they would begin their fundamental game design with modern CPUs instead of considering Jaguar, everything would change from their very first diner napkin. The way the entire game works under the hood, the entire framework of how it chugs, would be massively different, even at an engine level. A true next gen game might even run an engine that doesn't work on PS4 at all...at least it could if they were willing to ditch it.
 

hemo memo

Gold Member
It could be the case this gen with some games.
I mean it could of happend last gen too, but maybe this gen devs and pubs think its worth it because the experience is not diminished on the new platforms.

I mean if Rockstar had a plan for GTA6 with there RAGE 9 engine and they trageted it for current gen, but they found out they could get it to work on last gen too without comprising the experience, why wouldn't they release on last gen?
It will be compromised. A refresher:

583780-Jak-II-Haven-City-map-Mark-Cerny.jpg
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
My reply is identical, as is the issue:
"If a dev can do everything he wants on last gen then the game design itself is last gen, no matter how many layers of graphical splendor are tacked on top of it......like Last of Us Part 1 f.e."

If Rockstar gets GTA6 to run on PS4 then they haven`t used the power of the current gen in any meaningful way and we get another last gen GTA with prettier graphics.

Or Maybe they dont need the power of the PS5/Xseries to do what they want to achieve with the game.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Imagine someone advising you that it's impossible to run PS3 games on PS2 due to the insane performance gulf, and asking for specific examples as to why it's not possible.

I see the same thing here, I'm sorry but it comes off as kind of silly and trying to hold on to this notion that it MIGHT not make a difference.

Let me first remind you that a major pillar of strength for consoles was having a standardized hardware spec to make games that focused on the unique hardware. What we have now is a situation where everything must be made in a very scalable way like a PC game designed to hit low end targets that also scales up with bells and whistles. In the context of PC, trying to hit those lower targets absolutely affects game design, now it can happen on consoles too. The situation is pretty crappy because these days games tend to be made for console first, and consoles are held back by these Jaguar CPUs, which is a worse bottleneck than they would account for in the PC space. Basically, they want to put out games on everything, that means they have to spec the game for the lowest common denominator (Jaguar chips) and then scale up depending on how much additional power you have.

If they would begin their fundamental game design with modern CPUs instead of considering Jaguar, everything would change from their very first diner napkin. The way the entire game works under the hood, the entire framework of how it chugs, would be massively different, even at an engine level. A true next gen game might even run an engine that doesn't work on PS4 at all...at least it could if they were willing to ditch it.
If you think its silly why post in the thread then?
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Avatar devs gave a lot of great examples of how the new CPUs, GPUs and SSDs are helping them create an experience not possible on last gen hardware. It affects everything from visuals to gameplay and level design.

Flying​

Much of Frontiers of Pandora's reveal trailer takes place with Na'vi heroes riding their Banshee companions. As it turns out, this isn't just for show – the game will let you take to the skies and travel across them at high speed, and only new hardware allowed the team to couple that mechanic with the detailed world it wanted to present.

"[New consoles allowed] us to have much better object detail up close to you," explains Stefanove, "but also when you're flying high up in the air – to have a lovely vista and far-distance rendering, where we can even use the ray tracing to do shadows super far away, you know, three or four kilometers away from you."

It's not just that the world needs to look good as you lazily soar over it – it's that it needs to stay looking good while you travel very, very quickly, as Jansén explains: "You're flying at enormous high speeds on a Banshee over this very, very detailed landscape. It doesn't matter how much we can render, unless we can stream it in as fast when we're moving very fast from one place to another. So just this shift to these newer hard drives, it can't be underestimated because, and it really has a lot of implications."

Map Design​

One of the less visible benefits of new hardware is in changing not just how the open world looks, but how it's pieced together. Because of more limited tech, older open world games needed to balance detail with density, which can lead to large areas of relative nothingness between major points of interest (I'm looking at you Assassin's Creed: Odyssey). It seems that new-gen tech will allow Frontiers of Pandora to be built a little more organically:

"It's not just the old 'I'm taking this slow walk as I enter into the place because we have to stream everything in'," explains Jansén of the benefits to his maps, "it's little subtle things that people don't think about, which is how close together are all the places in the world. If you look at, with the old hard drives, they had to be spaced out very far [apart], because you had to stream out the old and stream in the new, so it just created a formulaic world. So, there's a ton of stuff like that."

Enemy and Creature AI​

It's not just graphical power helping Massive's designers – processing power will help them try new things, too, particularly when it comes to NPCs.

"Technology is everything," says Jansén, "it's what allows us to realize our dreams as designers. It's what allows us to tell our stories, and to create the immersion and the escapism that we want. It's not just about escapism, it's about danger as well, because Pandora is a beautiful place, but it's also a dangerous place. So, the wildlife, the AI, the way that they track you, the way that they attack you, the advances in technology and the way that we are taking advantage of the power with our in-house Snowdrop engine is allowing us [to] do amazing things that would not be possible [otherwise]."

Stefanov steps in to show us exactly what that can mean: "I can give you a specific example of something that you see in the trailer that has to do with the AI systems. For the big creatures, whenever they are calm, they would obviously walk around trees and things like that. But when they are fleeing, or attacking you, or whatever, they will just go straight through the bamboo and other vegetation and just completely destroy it. I think it's really cool to be able to see all of these effects that the NPCs have on the environment, as well as you having an effect on the environment too."

Immersion​

While this does fall somewhat under the "it looks nice" bracket of technical improvements, Massive is adamant that improving some of the more complex visuals will help players get into the idea that they're on the Pandora of James Cameron's original movie, not just another game world.

"It's a first-person game," says Jansén. "It's, to me, the most immersive way of playing. So we're really going all-in on that vision of, 'Remember the movie, remember you wanted to go to Pandora.' Now you can go to Pandora and, to do that, we needed to have the best simulation of weather, rain, animals, and the best rendering, because the more technically excellent it is, the more capable it is of taking you from where you are and into the world of Pandora."

Stefanov gives some examples of what that can mean to the game: "In terms of a new generation of consoles, the improved [hardware] just gives us so much opportunity to make sure that the game's as immersive as possible. So a couple of examples, we have a completely new lighting system that is based on ray tracing, and I think it is a dramatic step up in quality that makes you feel like it's a real place. One tiny example is that it can actually handle the translucency of the leaves [...] so it can figure out how much of the light is reflected through the leaves, how tinted it is with the colors and everything else. You get lovely reflections and sights for the water, even down to the volumetric clouds up in the sky – they actually receive the correct lighting as well."
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Then their game design is last gen...I don`t think that`s hard to understand. That´s not an "or"...it is how it is.
What would be the difference between there last gen and next gen game design and gameplay if the core experience is the same?

Its like back porting.

Is a slightly more extreme version of putting last gen games on the switch.
 

GymWolf

Member
Avatar devs gave a lot of great examples of how the new CPUs, GPUs and SSDs are helping them create an experience not possible on last gen hardware. It affects everything from visuals to gameplay and level design.

Flying​

Much of Frontiers of Pandora's reveal trailer takes place with Na'vi heroes riding their Banshee companions. As it turns out, this isn't just for show – the game will let you take to the skies and travel across them at high speed, and only new hardware allowed the team to couple that mechanic with the detailed world it wanted to present.

"[New consoles allowed] us to have much better object detail up close to you," explains Stefanove, "but also when you're flying high up in the air – to have a lovely vista and far-distance rendering, where we can even use the ray tracing to do shadows super far away, you know, three or four kilometers away from you."

It's not just that the world needs to look good as you lazily soar over it – it's that it needs to stay looking good while you travel very, very quickly, as Jansén explains: "You're flying at enormous high speeds on a Banshee over this very, very detailed landscape. It doesn't matter how much we can render, unless we can stream it in as fast when we're moving very fast from one place to another. So just this shift to these newer hard drives, it can't be underestimated because, and it really has a lot of implications."

Map Design​

One of the less visible benefits of new hardware is in changing not just how the open world looks, but how it's pieced together. Because of more limited tech, older open world games needed to balance detail with density, which can lead to large areas of relative nothingness between major points of interest (I'm looking at you Assassin's Creed: Odyssey). It seems that new-gen tech will allow Frontiers of Pandora to be built a little more organically:

"It's not just the old 'I'm taking this slow walk as I enter into the place because we have to stream everything in'," explains Jansén of the benefits to his maps, "it's little subtle things that people don't think about, which is how close together are all the places in the world. If you look at, with the old hard drives, they had to be spaced out very far [apart], because you had to stream out the old and stream in the new, so it just created a formulaic world. So, there's a ton of stuff like that."

Enemy and Creature AI​

It's not just graphical power helping Massive's designers – processing power will help them try new things, too, particularly when it comes to NPCs.

"Technology is everything," says Jansén, "it's what allows us to realize our dreams as designers. It's what allows us to tell our stories, and to create the immersion and the escapism that we want. It's not just about escapism, it's about danger as well, because Pandora is a beautiful place, but it's also a dangerous place. So, the wildlife, the AI, the way that they track you, the way that they attack you, the advances in technology and the way that we are taking advantage of the power with our in-house Snowdrop engine is allowing us [to] do amazing things that would not be possible [otherwise]."

Stefanov steps in to show us exactly what that can mean: "I can give you a specific example of something that you see in the trailer that has to do with the AI systems. For the big creatures, whenever they are calm, they would obviously walk around trees and things like that. But when they are fleeing, or attacking you, or whatever, they will just go straight through the bamboo and other vegetation and just completely destroy it. I think it's really cool to be able to see all of these effects that the NPCs have on the environment, as well as you having an effect on the environment too."

Immersion​

While this does fall somewhat under the "it looks nice" bracket of technical improvements, Massive is adamant that improving some of the more complex visuals will help players get into the idea that they're on the Pandora of James Cameron's original movie, not just another game world.

"It's a first-person game," says Jansén. "It's, to me, the most immersive way of playing. So we're really going all-in on that vision of, 'Remember the movie, remember you wanted to go to Pandora.' Now you can go to Pandora and, to do that, we needed to have the best simulation of weather, rain, animals, and the best rendering, because the more technically excellent it is, the more capable it is of taking you from where you are and into the world of Pandora."

Stefanov gives some examples of what that can mean to the game: "In terms of a new generation of consoles, the improved [hardware] just gives us so much opportunity to make sure that the game's as immersive as possible. So a couple of examples, we have a completely new lighting system that is based on ray tracing, and I think it is a dramatic step up in quality that makes you feel like it's a real place. One tiny example is that it can actually handle the translucency of the leaves [...] so it can figure out how much of the light is reflected through the leaves, how tinted it is with the colors and everything else. You get lovely reflections and sights for the water, even down to the volumetric clouds up in the sky – they actually receive the correct lighting as well."
I'm gonna laugh my ass off if the title is just gonna be the usual copypasta ubisoft with none of these features.
 
Last edited:

Haggard

Banned
What would be the difference between there last gen and next gen game design and gameplay if the core experience is the same?

Its like back porting.

Is a slightly more extreme version of putting last gen games on the switch.

If you make use of the next gen power in your core game design then there is no "downporting" without completely rebuilding/redesigning.
If I want a 1000 units on the field with individual behaviours nearly grilling that zen 2 in some RTS game, then that will never run on a Jaguar unless I vastly reduce the unit number and/or behavioural complexity making it a different game.
I don`t know why it seems to be so hard for you to understand that there are more than just superficial elements like graphics involved in game design.....
 
Last edited:

Fbh

Member
They do....but not in the type of games most AAA studios do.

Most AAA games are little more than Ps3 era games with better graphics and more polished gameplay

People talk about physics and AI. As if the average AAA studio will waste time on that when they can just work on muh graphics.
 
Last edited:

BlackTron

Member
What would be the difference between there last gen and next gen game design and gameplay if the core experience is the same?

Its like back porting.

Is a slightly more extreme version of putting last gen games on the switch.

The only reason the core experience is the same is because they are making it for last gen.

Basically, the industry has settled on the way games work "under the hood" that they really like because it offers flexibility and scalability, and frankly, gamers don't seem to care that much anymore by and large. They can push a cross-gen game as well as they can a pure next-gen title (or better in this case due to install base...that's why they are doing it).

Don't be fooled into thinking that scalability and flexibility doesn't come at a cost. Another way of putting this would be, a PC game that runs on a potato that can be scaled up, vs a PC game that has very high minimum requirements -they don't often do this because it would kill their potential market (ahem, Crysis way back) but it could result in a technically more impressive game.

But consoles used to sidestep that issue. Now, they hold back everything with it!
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
If you make use of the next gen power in your core game design then there is no "downporting" without completely rebuilding/redesigning.
If I want a 1000 units on the field with individual behaviours nearly grilling my zen 2 in some RTS game, then that will never run on a Jaguar unless I vastly reduce the unit number and/or behavioural complexity making it a different game.
I don`t know why it seems to be so hard for you to understand that there are more than just superficial elements like graphics involved in game design.....

Its kinda like driving a tesla S plad and jeep wrangler to the grocery store 5mins away. The plad maybe be a bit faster and comfortable but both vehicles can achieve that task.
Current gen hardware may not improve things if what the developer wants to do is possible on last gen.
 

Haggard

Banned
Its kinda like driving a tesla S plad and jeep wrangler to the grocery store 5mins away. The plad maybe be a bit faster and comfortable but both vehicles can achieve that task.
Current gen hardware may not improve things if what the developer wants to do is possible on last gen.
no....in my example the Jeep would fall off a cliff and never reach the store......

again and as simple as I can possibly make it:
Core design needs next-gen power => next gen game NOT downportable.
Core design works on old hardware => last gen game at heart, usually downportable if the graphics engine is at all compatible.
 
Last edited:

BlackTron

Member
Its kinda like driving a tesla S plad and jeep wrangler to the grocery store 5mins away. The plad maybe be a bit faster and comfortable but both vehicles can achieve that task.
Current gen hardware may not improve things if what the developer wants to do is possible on last gen.

To be fair, graphics hit a point where even taking advantage of the power is a big task. However, that task is a lot smaller and easier if they are not also trying to make sure it runs on a potato.

I would expect a lot of third parties to be okay using existing game engines and banking on scalability at this point. However, it's kind of lame seeing big tentpole first party stuff go cross gen like Horizon and GoW.

It's not just graphics though. The way games run, look, act, behave and just plain appear in motion to the eye is very held back by old tech. Jaguar keeps a level of jankiness in games right now that we can't get around and we just keep slapping on more layers of paint over it depending on how good your gfx card is. In my opinion, it's making really good looking games a bit awkward, because the level of interactivity with the world isn't keeping up with the level of realism. It's like walking around in front of a photo-realistic painting instead of a real place.
 

th4tguy

Member
With every version of the game, complexity and cost is added to the development cycle. Even a Xbox exclusive game like forza required 6 different build (1 for each iteration of Xbox and 1 for pc). This absolutely added time and cost. Each of those versions has its own test cycles that have to be performed, their own bugs that have to be fixed, and for every update that goes out, the cycle continues.

The reason it happens at all is because right now, the benefits (total sales) outweigh the additional time and cost of supporting the large number of platforms.

As soon as that cost to profit ratio trends in the opposite direction, the previous gen versions will stop being green lit.

This is absolutely the reason why halo split screen was canceled. They already can’t keep up with adding content. Releasing local split screen not only is its own headache to develop across 6 platforms but it also compounds. Every new update after has to go through testing of with local split screen across those same 6 platforms. It’s a logistical nightmare and drives up cost for a feature that isn’t selling that many copies of the game.
 

Trunim

Member
It could be the case this gen with some games.
I mean it could of happend last gen too, but maybe this gen devs and pubs think its worth it because the experience is not diminished on the new platforms.

I mean if Rockstar had a plan for GTA6 with there RAGE 9 engine and they trageted it for current gen, but they found out they could get it to work on last gen too without comprising the experience, why wouldn't they release on last gen?
Developers don't just "find out" that their new game can be run on last gen hardware and carry on like no bother... If they want the game to be on the last gen, they will plan it from the very start, and make realistic goals from that.

If I live in a room, and you live in a room, and my room is bigger and has more windows and higher ceiling, I would have to decorate it differently, with bigger sofa, bigger TV, taller curtains, more effective radiators, larger carpet...etc etc. Think of a game with thousands of rooms. It is just not feasible, because you'd have to make every room two times over.

Think about the new A plague Tale: Requiem-game. The developers say: "When we write, [the increased quality] allows us to consider sequences that were previously impossible, such as chases with hundreds of thousands of rats, or locations that evolve dynamically according to the story and events."

Do you follow? the improvements are not just replacing a texture or making shadows lower res. It's about the whole game and how basic elements in the game, dependent on each other, create the game itself.
 
Last edited:

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Developers don't just "find out" that their new game can be run on last gen hardware and carry on like no bother... If they want the game to be on the last gen, they will plan it from the very start, and make realistic goals from that.

If I live in a room, and you live in a room, and my room is bigger and has more windows and higher ceiling, I would have to decorate it differently, with bigger sofa, bigger TV, taller curtains, more effective radiators, larger carpet...etc etc. Think of a game with thousands of rooms. It is just not feasible, because you'd have to make every room two times over.

Think about the new A plague Tale: Requiem-game. The developers say: "When we write, [the increased quality] allows us to consider sequences that were previously impossible, such as chases with hundreds of thousands of rats, or locations that evolve dynamically according to the story and events."

Do you follow? the improvements are not just replacing a texture or making shadows lower res. It's about the whole game and how basic elements in the game, dependent on each other, create the game itself.
Im not saying this is not the case, but its not necessarily always the case.
I mean what would you say if GTA6 did launch on last gen consoles as well but the current gen version was the most sophisticated and best looking open world game ever released?
Of course more platforms require more work I never said this wasn't the case.

Im just putting it out there that cross gen may not be as bad as some people think , I could be wrong and im and I dont want cross gen, but looking at technology and the way things have gone down with cross gen I can see it not being as bad as some may think with certain games.

I kinda hope this wont be the case though and current gen shows things which are just impossible to do on last gen.
 

Daytonabot

Banned
The situation can be better than before but also still hold back games.

When we transitioned from the PS3 and 360 to the PS4 and Xbox One, the architecture changed completely from IBM PowerPC to X64, joining the PC. The X64 architecture was maintained for the PS5 and Series, making backward compatibility and scaling much easier.

However, that doesn't mean that there is not a toll on software development. PC gaming has been held back by console hardware for ~15-years, and now current gen console owners are feeling the same pain.
 

Bigfroth

Member
Do You think Bungie will ever do something with those empty load tunnels that connect zones in Destiny? You really don't need them on current consoles or PCs anymore lol. That's a lot of real estate if you add them all up.
 
even if old hardware didnt hold a game back conceptually, the dev still has to spend time optimizing/producing the game for the old hardware.

id rather they spend all their time/resources on polishing the one version.
wasnt that the whole point of consoles in the first place?
it's one set of hardware, and you optimize the hell out of it.
 

sachos

Member
Even if the game isnt hold back by last gen tech (i think it would) it would still be hold back by having to allocate so many resources to supporting 10 year old hardware, its a lot of resources that could be used to make the next gen only version better.
The four points you mention OP all have to do with the CPU or Storage, to me it seems like if the game is trully next gen it should not be possible to scale it back down to such old hardware unless they are okay with downgrading and removing huge parts of the game wich again brings me back to my last point, at that point you are supporting two different versions of the game and you still end up holding yourself back by supporting so many versions of the game.
 

Three

Member
I'm not saying these things in the new console don't make a difference, they clearly do allow better frame rates and faster loading times.

However maybe they are not needed in some games to implement new features, improve systems and gameplay.

I've been thinking about GTA6.
I imagine that when designing that game the developers will have a list of things they want to improve and implement, things such as:

  • Improved wanted system and police behaviour
  • More interiors with higher detail
  • More realistic NPC behaviours and routines
  • Larger and more detailed world.
  • Etc...

Now if all these things can be implemented scaled down on jaguar CPUs + HDD, keeping the game cross gen may not hold it back.


I'm not saying this will happen with all games but this gen and last gen may be more scalable then in the past.

So cross gen might not mean games are necessarily "held back"

What do you think constant reader?
Depends what you are doing I guess. You mention GTA but I think several things can be improved in GTA with better hardware. Imagine a GTA where interiors are seemless. No loading time when walking into a building. A bit like Franklin's house but everywhere, including GTA Online. I think you really need the fast loading for something like that or you need to cut back so much that it can fit into memory.
 
Last edited:

Crayon

Member
Nah, it sucks. I do believe developers would be able to work faster if they could target the systems with such faster performance. PS4 is hanging tough. Hopefully we leave it behind sooner than later and step up to a glorius 4tf baseline lol.
 
To be fair, graphics hit a point where even taking advantage of the power is a big task. However, that task is a lot smaller and easier if they are not also trying to make sure it runs on a potato.
Potato is switch in my book. I don't think PS4 is a potato, yet.

Most of the time things simply work with caveats. Just like PC games on entry level GPU's these days. Below spec, still runs.

For as long as there's a sizeable userbase there and stuff still more or less run, It's bound to happen. Perhaps they're making those decisions because it's still doable, rather than making the game for the PS4 as a lead platform. I don't think that's happening, notice how they're announcing PS4 versions towards the end of development. I think it's because they're developing the games for next gen and then look at what they have closer to launch and see whether it's possible or not to scale.

Otherwise, why wait? They could always cancel the PS4 SKU too.
I would expect a lot of third parties to be okay using existing game engines and banking on scalability at this point. However, it's kind of lame seeing big tentpole first party stuff go cross gen like Horizon and GoW.
Apart from UE5 Nanite, which doesn't have a single commercial game out on, it's normal for them to scale things up from what they currently have. The paradigm didn't change after all, the architectures and what the hardware can do is still similar enough.

I think of this generation GPU as a mix table with a lot more channels, but last generation was already a respectable mix table. These days we have infinite channels when producing music but the biggest jump was when we hit 24 tracks.

Having more is nice, but there isn't a sound that you can't do because you have 48 tracks and not 24 tracks.
It's not just graphics though. The way games run, look, act, behave and just plain appear in motion to the eye is very held back by old tech. Jaguar keeps a level of jankiness in games right now that we can't get around and we just keep slapping on more layers of paint over it depending on how good your gfx card is. In my opinion, it's making really good looking games a bit awkward, because the level of interactivity with the world isn't keeping up with the level of realism. It's like walking around in front of a photo-realistic painting instead of a real place.
While it's easy to blame that on the Jaguar cores. I'm not sure that's due to the lack of power alone.

Jaguar cores were more powerful in general purpose than what came before, all the processing areas we're expecting to see a jump now could have had a jump last gen as well but that didn't happen. Because developers didn't focus on that for a second. It was frustrating for me, personally.

It's not just about having the processing power, I feel we've seen developers trying advanced semi-complex AI, destructible environments, number of NPC's and so on... a lot more on the PS3/X360 generation, when it was borderline insane to attempt so much, than they did on the PS4/Xbox One.

And I think that's because it was a novel possibility back then and truth is that despite having the power to do it, they also realized these things are resource intensive and can't be automated... So they need resources. You need to increase the amount of guys you have doing AI, so they can look at the task and start fresh instead of recycling whatever they were using for the previous game; if they don't have time and resources they won't. Destructible environments all the same, we're seeing less and less of it because the broken assets have to be created.

If anything though, it's sony and microsoft that should be pushing that envelope, no doubt. But they need to put resources into that specifically otherwise we'll only get better graphics and no loadings for the most part.
 
Last edited:

SSfox

Member
Crossgen definitely hold back. Doesn't mean mean a crossgen game will be back because "it's crossgen", but when you design a game for next only or for crossgen, that's very different. Just look at a game like Wukong, it's cleary a game that have to sacrifice stuffs to run on PS4/Xbox One
 
Top Bottom