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[Sosokrates]

I'm not saying these things in the new console don't make a difference, they clearly do allow better frame rates and faster loading times.

However maybe they are not needed in some games to implement new features, improve systems and gameplay.

I've been thinking about GTA6.
I imagine that when designing that game the developers will have a list of things they want to improve and implement, things such as:

• Improved wanted system and police behaviour
• More interiors with higher detail
• More realistic NPC behaviours and routines
• Larger and more detailed world.
• Etc...

Now if all these things can be implemented scaled down on jaguar CPUs + HDD, keeping the game cross gen may not hold it back.


I'm not saying this will happen with all games but this gen and last gen may be more scalable then in the past.

So cross gen might not mean games are necessarily "held back"

What do you think constant reader?

 

[RoadHazard]

But something like actually detailed and varied interiors that you can seamlessly enter from an equally detailed and varied outside world can't really be done using an HDD. The last-gen open world games that do have seamless interiors mostly look the same in every house, with stuff just rearranged a bit. That might be partly down to the time it would take to make them all feel unique, but it's definitely also due to it not being possible to load new assets for them seamlessly from an HDD, so everything has to already be in RAM. The new consoles could solve that.

The same goes for general open world detail and variety.

 

[GymWolf]

We had this discussion countless times already.

Some things can be scaled back, but the core of the game being made on a ps4 instead of a ps5 is gonna change everything, from level design to how ambitious the game is.

Rdr2 was barely capable to run on a ps4 at 30 frame, you really don't want an even heavier and more ambitious game on the same system, trust me.

Most of the staff you list has to do with ram and ssd dude, and at least hard disk wise, the jump from ps4 is gigantic to say the least.

 

[Bonfires Down]

I think Rockstar has the budget and skill to create separate versions that take full advantage of both last and current gen consoles. If they want to do a lot of interiors, they can do it on last gen too. Just at a much lower fidelity. Scale back the number of pedestrians and cars. Simplify the geometry. Lower the texture quality. That said, I don't feel like putting all that effort into last gen versions is worth it, but Rockstar might have a different take.

 

[lh032]

i dont think its that easy

 

[Marvel14]

I'm not saying these things in the new console don't make a difference, they clearly do allow better frame rates and faster loading times.

However maybe they are not needed in some games to implement new features, improve systems and gameplay.

I've been thinking about GTA6.
I imagine that when designing that game the developers will have a list of things they want to improve and implement, things such as:

• Improved wanted system and police behaviour
• More interiors with higher detail
• More realistic NPC behaviours and routines
• Larger and more detailed world.
• Etc...

Now if all these things can be implemented scaled down on jaguar CPUs + HDD, keeping the game cross gen may not hold it back.


I'm not saying this will happen with all games but this gen and last gen may be more scalable then in the past.

So cross gen might not mean games are necessarily "held back"

What do you think constant reader?

I think your thread title will enflame all console warriors for miles around . Other than prettier visuals what's the point of next gen if every title can be crossgen? We buy into them for the gen exclusivity. Your title says "screw that ".

 

[Beer Baelly]

Vote with your wallet

 

[GHG]

We've had this discussion before and the likelihood is that we will end up with whole generation of cross-gen games.

Most companies are not interested in giving us anything more than incremental improvements when it comes to games and this gen they've been given the perfect cop-out.

 

[Sosokrates]

But something like actually detailed and varied interiors that you can seamlessly enter from an equally detailed and varied outside world can't really be done using an HDD. The last-gen open world games that do have seamless interiors mostly look the same in every house, with stuff just rearranged a bit. That might be partly down to the time it would take to make them all feel unique, but it's definitely also due to it not being possible to load new assets for them seamlessly from an HDD, so everything has to already be in RAM. The new consoles could solve that.

The same goes for general open world detail and variety.

I mean we are already seeing quite significant different levels of detail, games like horizon forbidden west and FH5.

We had this discussion countless times already.

Some things can be scaled back, but the core of the game being made on a ps4 instead of a ps5 is gonna change everything, from level design to how ambitious the game is.

Rdr2 was barely capable to run on a ps4 at 30 frame, you really don't want an even heavier and more ambitious game on the same system, trust me.

Most of the staff you list has to do with ram and ssd dude, and at least hard disk wise, the jump from ps4 is gigantic to say the least.

So if a dev comes along and says that nothing is lost from keeping there game on last gen because things are so scalable for there game then I guess you would be wrong. The conversation has been had before but we have had no concrete answer, and we still dont really know the truth on the matter.
Its interesting that you say we dont want a more ambitious game then RDR2 on last gen, but thats the thing, last gen is still caperble of making a better game then RDR2, in regards to GTA6 there are several things they can improve which would not require greater hardware necessarily, which is kinda the point I was trying to make.

 

[Sosokrates]

We've had this discussion before

Yes, but still none the wiser.

Most companies are not interested in giving us anything more than incremental improvements

Maybe budget and manpower is holding back improvements more then hardware power. Unbelievably there was not a more detailed modern day open world game then GTA5 last gen

 

[GymWolf]

I mean we are already seeing quite significant different levels of detail, games like horizon forbidden west and FH5.



So if a dev comes along and says that nothing is lost from keeping there game on last gen because things are so scalable for there game then I guess you would be wrong. The conversation has been had before but we have had no concrete answer, and we still dont really know the truth on the matter.
Its interesting that you say we dont want a more ambitious game then RDR2 on last gen, but thats the thing, last gen is still caperble of making a better game then RDR2, in regards to GTA6 there are several thing they can improve which would require greater hardware, which is kinda the point O was trying to make.

Devs say a lot of bullshit to cover whatever narrative their overlord decide.

Do you really think that any dev that care about keeping his job would officially say that jimbo doing crossgen games is a bad thing? Don't be naive dude.

Devs saying that is the equivalent of tlou remake being made from the ground up on ps5 and many other countless bullshit we hear everyday.

I'm sure that every time an halo infinite dev told us that the project was going perfectly well, an angel in heaven died...but hey, if devs said that, it must be true...

 

[RoadHazard]

I mean we are already seeing quite significant different levels of detail, games like horizon forbidden west and FH5.



So if a dev comes along and says that nothing is lost from keeping there game on last gen because things are so scalable for there game then I guess you would be wrong. The conversation has been had before but we have had no concrete answer, and we still dont really know the truth on the matter.
Its interesting that you say we dont want a more ambitious game then RDR2 on last gen, but thats the thing, last gen is still caperble of making a better game then RDR2, in regards to GTA6 there are several things they can improve which would not require greater hardware necessarily, which is kinda the point I was trying to make.

I haven't actually played HFW, but is it actually that much more detailed than the original? I mean in terms of asset variety etc, not the same assets just pasted more densely through the environments.

 

[Y0ssarian]

Cope

 

[Sosokrates]

Cope

Cope with what, im neither for or against either approach why would anyone care if theres a last gen version if it didn't effect the current gen version. I mean if a Rockstar Dev said to me that they cant do this because there streaming tech requires an SSD and there lighting model requires so much render time which is just not feasible on last gen consoles, then that would be great, it would make sense.

 

[The_Mike]

I think it's great.

I believe it will potentially lengthen this generation, since when they ditch previous gen in a few year they focus on this one, expanding its cycle.

 

[yamaci17]

Halo CE has better AI than most new FPS shooters, which practically ran on original Xbox hardware.
Jaguar is an excuse most devs use to leave physics / logics improvements out of the gate.

 

[saintjules]

Yes, but still none the wiser.

Maybe budget and manpower is holding back improvements more then hardware power. Unbelievably there was not a more detailed modern day open world game then GTA5 last gen

I think budget is definitely one of the things that hold back a developer when truly being able to do something amazing.

Imagine some of the indie games that could have been AAA experiences but held back by budget.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Switch is current gen

 

[Esppiral]

What if the sky were green? Mmmm no, it's BB blue.

 

[odhiex]

Most of those next gen consoles' exclusives were, are and will be on PC anyway

 

[MikeM]

Meh i’m pretty happy overall. 60 and 120fps options have been amazing on console especially now with VRR.

I just hope when cross gen is over we don’t lose those options.

 

[yurinka]

I think that games using game engines that will really take advantage of the next gen hardware and that would allow substantial upgrades in terms of even game or level design will take this generation longer than expected due to several reasons:

• First because this generation will allow a bigger leap than usual in terms of the types of innovations and changes in game engines and workflow, and this require extra time.
• Second because every gen the big AAA take longer time to be developed and most the ones published now were started to be developed in 2017-2018 or even before, when they didn't have the next gen specs so couldn't design the games around them and couldn't take full advantage of them.
• And third because there's like over 80-90M PS4 active every month plus also dozens of million low-mid PCs while the new gen still has a way lower installbase and even if it's growing faster than usual had the components issue that slowed down the production and may continue doing it in the future.
• Hardware family similarity between generations this time made way easier to make BC and crossgen for games and game engines.

So publishers will want to continue supporting the current gen and even if they would want to stop supporting the older gen they couldn't provide substantial upgrades because games published now were started to be developed and designed as previous gen games and use previous gen engines so can't take full advantage of the newest hardware and barely can only offer better textures, resolution, framerate, loading times, maybe lighting and depending the case ray tracing.

So games aren't held back for being crossgen, they wouldn't be much different if they would have dropped last gen. They aren't substantially different because they still don't have the related tech and workflow ready. And expect crossgen games being a norm during 2023 and somewhat frequent even in 2024.

 

[killatopak]

We’ve already seen what being held back does to a game like Cyberpunk.

You already have features in Cyberpunk locked for next-gen only. More to come on the next update.

There’s no IF. It will always hold back next gen.

 

[RoboFu]

Just having to budget for last gen ports holds back a game way more than any hardware could.

 

[Lasha]

We’ve already seen what being held back does to a game like Cyberpunk.

You already have features in Cyberpunk locked for next-gen only. More to come on the next update.

There’s no IF. It will always hold back next gen.

What was locked out for the console versions? I only ever played it on PC.

 

[killatopak]

What was locked out for the console versions? I only ever played it on PC.

For now, based only on what I’ve played comparing my PS4 and PS5 playthrough, a couple of easter eggs and pets. Nothing is locked out of next gen aside from mods. Only last gen suffers. It sucks because I bought the game day 1 and expect it to be supported through it’s life like the other versions.

For the next update, everything else including the expansion dlc is next gen exclusive. It’s on their roadmap.

 

[BlackTron]

"What if last gen doesn't hold back games by coming up with some way to limit current gen games so that they run on last gen hardware"

Uhhh...

 

[SeraphJan]

CPU limitation means you can't implement more complex AI and other environmental calculations

DirectStorage is a bigger one, this is what separates 9th gen from the previous gen, IMO the leap from 7th gen to 8th gen is incremental, while the leap from 8th to 9th is not

Framerate and Resolution is not everything, when Mark Cerny designed PS5, there is reason he focus on improving the CPU and Directstorage instead of Graphic. Graphic are easily scalable (especially with all the reconstruction tech), CPU and Directstorage is not.

The only reason cross gen game are still being made is not because they don't hold back games (which they definitely do), but mainly due to 9th gen hardware is still not widely adopted by the consumer (shortage)

 

[BlackTron]

What if last gen hardware does not hold back games?​

Now if all these things can be implemented scaled down on jaguar CPUs

I think we've figured it out, the key to keeping games from being held back is to scale things down for Jaguar.

You heard it here first people...

I'm sorry but I just can't even right now lol

 

[Trunim]

You can't just scale everything down like you think. You'd double your workload, essentially making two games. And you'd think crunch time wasn't an issue now, wait till they apply your "just scale it down"-tactic.

 

[Haggard]

Now if all these things can be implemented scaled down on jaguar CPUs + HDD, keeping the game cross gen may not hold it back.

anything that`s a core game mechanic can`t be scaled down.....
If you want another GTA that is just bigger with more interiors and stuff, basically just more of the same content as before, then yes that is no issue.
However, if you want something "next gen" with vastly more sophisticated traffic, NPC and overall world simulation influencing the gameplay, maybe even dynamic destructibility on a larger scale etc, then you can forget about that with cross-gen in general.
Those are issue that can`t even be solved with separate versions unless the game design itself differs between the versions.
Next gen gen only enables much different game designs, and anything cross gen is always just a last gen game with visual extras for that very reason.

 

[Sosokrates]

I think we've figured it out, the key to keeping games from being held back is to scale things down for Jaguar.

You heard it here first people...

I'm sorry but I just can't even right now lol

Yes, scaled down to jaguar, there gpu, ram and HDD's...
Whats the issue?

 

[Sosokrates]

anything that`s a core game mechanic can`t be scaled down.....
If you want another GTA that is just bigger with more interiors and stuff, basically just more of the same content as before, then yes that is no issue.
However, if you want something "next gen" with vastly more sophisticated traffic, NPC and overall world simulation influencing the gameplay, maybe even dynamic destructibility on a larger scale etc, then you can forget about that with cross-gen in general.
Those are issue that can`t even be solved with separate versions unless the game design itself differs between the versions.
Next gen gen only enables much different game designs, and anything cross gen is always just a last gen game with visual extras for that very reason.

Obviously it would be things that can be scaled down... Like framerate.

 

[lostinblue]

Some games are not held back running on a PS4, but the moment you stream a lot of assets and design it with a SSD in mind they will probably be a bit limited in the amount of stuff they get from disk every second.

Still isn't an issue if they treat PS5 and Xbox Series S/X as lead platforms and then backport it to PS4/Xbox One. Similar to how they did Doom Eternal and worked alongside with a separate team to get it on switch.

With some games you don't even need that, you'll simply have loadings where you either had fast loadings or no loadings at all before.

 

[Sosokrates]

You can't just scale everything down like you think. You'd double your workload, essentially making two games. And you'd think crunch time wasn't an issue now, wait till they apply your "just scale it down"-tactic.

Please give specific examples....

What cant be scaled down?

 

[lostinblue]

What cant be scaled down?

Depends. Right now we're scaling things up so we can scale them down still.

Easiest example is probably, if you write a lot of AI for enemies/NPC's and then want to scale down to Jaguar cores, you're kinda screwed, you either fall back on an older/simpler system, make it scripted or cut the number of people on-screen.

AI up to this point isn't really that complex, but that's bound to change once we have CPU's powerful enough as common denominators.

This said, I don't see a huge push towards AI this generation despite the hardware finally allowing it. But anything you write from the ground up for an 8 core processor will be hard to scale down to Jaguar.

 

[BlackTron]

Yes, scaled down to jaguar, there gpu, ram and HDD's...
Whats the issue?

This conversation has been had countless times. If you aren't seeing the issue yet, I'm not sure what to tell you.

To give you the really quick version though, the very second you need to start worrying about supporting the old CPU, it's massively affecting your game and whole project at a level that is so fundamental that it's just crazy to suggest this.

As far as I'm concerned, if there's any debate, it's as to whether cross-play is a good or a bad thing. There's not really any question whatsoever in my mind that cross-play holds back the games. Thinking that it doesn't, is either just cope or having no idea what you're talking about.

 

[TGO]

The fact you don't know what exactly will hold current gen back shows you that it's being held back.
When the Devs either straight up don't bother or cancel last gen versions because they literally just can't get them to work on the system.
That's when current gen finally isn't being held back.
At the moment we're in this 360 pre PS3 phase where we're getting a bunch of PS2 ports with Bell's and whistles

 

[Sosokrates]

Some games are not held back running on a PS4, but the moment you design with a SSD in mind they will probably be a bit limited.

Still isn't an issue if they treat PS5 and Xbox Series S/X as lead platforms and then backport to it. Similar to how they did Doom Eternal and worked alongside with a separate team to get it on switch.

Yes. The point is it may be the case for the ambitions and goals of some games ditching last gen is not needed.
Some people seem to think that the current gen consoles will just automatically allow for something not possible gameplay wise on last gen.

I obviously want games not to be held back, but we just presume that this gen is like prior gens and new gen games simply cant be done.

This thread was not to argue which way things will go, its about understanding what things can be scaled down and what things cant.

 

[lostinblue]

As far as I'm concerned, if there's any debate, it's as to whether cross-play is a good or a bad thing.

It's probably necessary considering how much games cost to make these days, and we're certainly experiencing diminish returns with graphics so I don't think that's there the leap actually lies this generation (if Nanite takes off that'll be a different story). But I expect cross gen to end in Q4 2023.

This generation huge improvement lies with a good CPU and SSD to me. Which is what last gen and the generation before this was horrible at. That said, I'm unsure most cross gen games are actually being held back if the teams are doing everything they wanted to do in the first place, I get the feeling they're deciding late in the development cycle that they want to support older consoles after all, biggest factor is money but at that point if they really wanted to they could have made the game impossible to run on them.

I feel graphics are always the focus for AAA teams, and that right now that's the "easy part to scale".


This said, GTA6 really seems like the game they could push the envelope. More CPU seems like something they would want/need, but judging from the leaked footage I don't think they decided yet to make it next-gen only.

 

[Sosokrates]

This conversation has been had countless times. If you aren't seeing the issue yet, I'm not sure what to tell you.

To give you the really quick version though, the very second you need to start worrying about supporting the old CPU, it's massively affecting your game and whole project at a level that is so fundamental that it's just crazy to suggest this.

As far as I'm concerned, if there's any debate, it's as to whether cross-play is a good or a bad thing. There's not really any question whatsoever in my mind that cross-play holds back the games. Thinking that it doesn't, is either just cope or having no idea what you're talking about.

Hey man if you're not interesting in discussing it dont post in this thread lol.

Like people keep on saying its been discussed countless times, fine lol, no one is forcing you to discuss it again

 

[BlackTron]

Hey man if you're not interesting in discussing it dont post in this thread lol.

Like people keep on saying its been discussed countless times, fine lol, no one is forcing you to discuss it again

It feels like talking in circles when the guy asking says "just scale the games back, what's the problem?"

Like, are you serious? lol

 

[nush]

That said, I don't feel like putting all that effort into last gen versions is worth it, but Rockstar might have a different take.

All they care about is getting as many players into GTA Online as possible. The core game is just bait for that.

 

[Sosokrates]

It feels like talking in circles when the guy asking says "just scale the games back, what's the problem?"

Like, are you serious? lol

Lol, dont be so disingenuous, thats not all ive said at all, try reading my posts, or if u dont want to discuss the topic, dont....

 

[ReBurn]

It's more than hardware. Even if cross gen wasn't a thing the reality is that the time and cost to do the things in the OP are just as limiting as hardware. Unless the point of the game is to emulate a realistic world where all buildings have full fully modeled and interactive interiors and all people are unique and react independently with accurate AI there's no reason to spend the budget on it. GTA isn't an exploration simulator or a human interaction simulator. Unless it is necessary to drive the narrative forward there things won't be a priority for developers.

 

[MatrixReloaded101]

The next gen consoles happened too soon and publishers don’t really care about them especially because of the lower install based compared to the older consoles (ps4/Xbox one)

And the console shortages really gave publishers a good excuse to do cross gen games. Of course the cross gen games are holding back next gen consoles because we are basically getting slightly enhanced versions of games that were built for old hardware.

Then companies have an excuse to charge $10 extra dollars for “next gen” editions when the differences are minimal in most cases because the core game wasn’t built for next gen hardware.

With all this being said, cross gen games won’t stop the creativity of new games. For example, Horizon FB is a better games in all aspects including tech wise compared to the first game. Also I was blown away by how amazing and detailed Stray looks as a cross gen game.

Devs should have mastered the Xbox one, PS4 and switch hardware by now so we should see better/improved tech for the types of games that we have been getting last gen but I think the ambition and scale will continue to be restricted for these cross gen games.

 

[brian0057]

Current day devs have more than enough power to do whatever they want. What they lack is limitations and the creativity to deal with them.
Silent Hill became the masterpiece that it is because the OG PlayStation couldn't render the city. Thus the iconic fog was born.
Whining about hardware limitations is just a massive cop-out

Unironically, old game good, new game bad.

 

[BlackTron]

Lol, dont be so disingenuous, thats not all ive said at all, try reading my posts, or if u dont want to discuss the topic, dont....

Another guy put it really well when he said "what if the sky was green"

What if there were 36 hours in a day? You can discuss such a hypothetical situation all you want. Trying to explain why there aren't 36 hours in a day, dragging in fundamental truths about the earth's rotation and relationship with the sun, even if had been beaten to death already. Why?

 

[Sosokrates]

Another guy put it really well when he said "what if the sky was green"

What if there were 36 hours in a day? You can discuss such a hypothetical situation all you want. Trying to explain why there aren't 36 hours in a day, dragging in fundamental truths about the earth's rotation and relationship with the sun, even if had been beaten to death already. Why?

Lol, your analogys are completely wrong. Im sure developers could explain in detail what the situation is.
I thought there might be somone with some knowledge of development on GAF.

 

[hemo memo]

If that long Cerny presentation wasn't an enough explanation then I don't know what to tell you OP. Sadly Sony didn't follow their own advise on this one.

Here watch it again, your answer is here