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News "We're able to show the difference from what's possible today with what's possible tomorrow": Inside Epic's Unreal Engine 5

Panajev2001a

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I don't think you do understand, because RTX I/O is leveraging the GPU for the decompression. In other words it IS dedicated hardware.

From Nvidia's tech page on RTX I/O:
Sure, it is using compute shaders to do the decompression work. It is not dedicated HW :p.
 

Lister

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Sure, it is using compute shaders to do the decompression work. It is not dedicated HW :p.

You're right, I thought, incorrectly, that it was using the tensore cores.

Still though, this would be a blip in terms of shader usage even with very heavy decompression workloads. And an RTX 3000 series card is already more powerful than a PS5, even just in terms of shading power. So in the real world, it's likely not to make any or much difference vs dedicated hardware.
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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The PCMR argument is always hanging roba quite disingenuous “here is a PC you can build or buy that does something better than your console” as if it meant something of incredible value/killing blow to this argument: by this time next year there will be about 35-40 Million console users (XSX|S + PS5) with HW and SW stacks built around the heavy throughout and low latency data streaming concept this engine was built upon. How many PC’s will be there on the market with the same capabilities? Thought so...

A PC with a 16-20 GB VRAM GPU that is going to use a few GB as RAMDISK or brute force this in other ways? Would not be shocked.
You do realize those same games are releasing for PC. I don't care what the "majority of pc owners" have. I care about my PC and that's all that matters. When the games continue to release, history will continue to repeat, and the best way to experience a game will remain on a universal platform.
 
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Panajev2001a

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You do realize those same games are releasing for PC. I don't care what the "majority of pc owners" have. I care about my PC and that's all that matters. When the games continue to release, history will continue to repeat, and the best way to experience a game will remain on a universal platform.
Some are going to release for PC and some are not (PS5 and Switch still have true exclusives) .

Still, yes it does not change it that PC can brute force pretty much any approach not long after the consoles are out ever since the power consumption envelope grew much much farther out of what $399 console boxes can provide, but we shall see how other unique aspects like control options will be adopted and change where the best way to experience a game will be (yes, referring to haptics here).

We can agree to disagree as we both seem to be set in our thought here and I am sure that there are infinite reasons you would always prefer a PC version anyways.
 

rofif

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I've not clicked that link. I bet they don't actually show the difference right ?
 

assurdum

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We've already went over this. Was UE5 machine ps5 i/o? You got a quote or sources?
Why are you so salty? Tim Sweeney has deliberately specified more than a time how the I/O is fundamental inside the ps5 for nanite tech but nope your irrational pc master race can't even accept this tech is still working in progress on pc. Not to saying it will take years to have it on pc but for now ps5 has an advantage to handle it.
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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Why are you so salty? Tim Sweeney has deliberately specified more than a time how the I/O is fundamental inside the ps5 for nanite tech but nope your irrational pc master race can't even accept this tech is still working in progress on pc. Not to saying it will take years to have it on pc but for now ps5 has an advantage to handle it.
Why are you so salty? Some misinformed posters are thinking PC needs to catch up, when it's the other way around. I just stated the obvious, to the person I quoted. Not sure why you are so upset?
 
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LordOfChaos

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Don't hold your breath

We've definitely easily surpassed their PS4 demo with real UE4 games though. If you ignore the cinematic camera shake and direction, the textures, amount of real lights, we're easily past this on the 8th gen already.

 
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Guilty_AI

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I really dislike how all this new tech seems solely focused on making games even more cinematic.
A game with "quality movie assets" will still be mostly worthless to me if it still plays like something from 10 years ago. And no, eliminating corridors and elevator rides ain't gonna solve the core issues with their game design. And don't get me started on their usually poor writing and storytelling.
 
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Sony was really really smart about partnering with Epic and listening what they wanted/needed for the next gen.
I'd love to hear which kind of compromises they have to take to make UE5 work on PC and Xbox
Compromises to run UE on pc?

I want some of the stuff you're smoking, dude.
 
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onesvenus

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Compromises to run UE on pc?

I want some of the stuff you're smoking, dude.
On the I/O front? Yes. Can you point me to any PC architecture that achieves an I/O bandwidth similar to what the PS5 does? You can fake the speed with RAM but then you are limited by it's size
 
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assurdum

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Why are you so salty? Some misinformed posters are thinking PC needs to catch up, when it's the other way around. I just stated the obvious, to the person I quoted. Not sure why you are so upset?
Lol upset. And you think troll them everytime about the pc supremacy power is a better attitude? Wow. Surely it's not me who takes as personal such discussion. Anyway you claimed there isn't any evidence about the I/O usage on ps5 for the UE5 when Tim Sweeney has monopolized such matter for months; you are quite unfair even in your claim.
 
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On the I/O front? Yes. Can you point me to any PC architecture that achieves an I/O bandwidth similar to what the PS5 does? You can fake the speed with RAM but then you are limited by it's size
Something like nvidia RTX IO?


And we already have ssd's that can match or exceed those numbers without any optimization whatsoever. Anything else will be faster anyway (with bigger memory pools on both the gpu and system side).
 
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assurdum

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I really dislike how all this new tech seems solely focused on making games even more cinematic.
A game with "quality movie assets" will still be mostly worthless to me if it still plays like something from 10 years ago. And no, eliminating corridors and elevator rides ain't gonna solve the core issues with their game design. And don't get me started on their usually poor writing and storytelling.
I don't get what it has to do with the UE5 engine such argument with all respect.
 
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Panajev2001a

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Something like nvidia RTX IO?


And we already have ssd's that can match or exceed those numbers without any optimization whatsoever. Anything else will be faster anyway (with bigger memory pools on both the gpu and system side).
So, product out on the market for $399 now (well it came out almost two months ago) vs tech not out yet? We might as well discuss XSX2 or PS6 specs?
 
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So, product out on the market for $399 now (well it came out almost two months ago) vs tech not out yet? We might as well discuss XSX2 or PS6 specs?
Well, we were talking about future use of UE5, since no game out there yet uses it. And since there's no game on pc that's already optmized to use the ssd the way the new consoles (will, in the future) do.

And who cares about the price. The point was: "will UE5 be gimped on pc?". Of course not.

And what I linked is not "tech" as in new gpu or pci-e interfaces, it's just an API (that's in the hand of developers since september at least).
 
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John Wick

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The demo was confirmed to be running just fine on a mid range pc according to epic themselves. I would assume that was without direct storage which is coming to pc this year and without RTX IO which is also coming to PC later this year.

PC as always will be running these games much better than fixed console hardware.
Was it? You mean that fake news from China where a video file was being played on a laptop? A midrange PC eh? Some people will believe any shit on the internet
 

assurdum

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Something like nvidia RTX IO?


And we already have ssd's that can match or exceed those numbers without any optimization whatsoever. Anything else will be faster anyway (with bigger memory pools on both the gpu and system side).
It's not that point and right, Nvidia and MS cooperate to offer an alternative to the ps5 solution on pc. But we don't know how much time will need. Not much I guess
 

Guilty_AI

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I don't get what it has to do with the UE5 engine such argument with all respect.
It has everything to do with the tech the UE5 has shown. They say it themselves don't they? That their achievement with this tech and the data streaming stuff is to allow games to use movie quality assets.
 
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onesvenus

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Something like nvidia RTX IO?


And we already have ssd's that can match or exceed those numbers without any optimization whatsoever. Anything else will be faster anyway (with bigger memory pools on both the gpu and system side).
We don't have numbers about RTX I/O to see if they match the ones on the PS5 or they are similar to the ones on the XSX.

Having said that, my point was that if most of the devices that will run UE5 have less I/O bandwidth than the PS5, Epic will develop the UE5 with those limitations in mind. That means that what we will get is different than what it could be if the minimum supported I/O bandwidth was the one in the PS5. That's what I meant about compromising what UE could be if it were only targeting PS5
 
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Lister

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Was it? You mean that fake news from China where a video file was being played on a laptop? A midrange PC eh? Some people will believe any shit on the internet

No, the part where the engineers said it ran fine ona mid range PC. The obvious movie demo playing on the laptop has nothing to do with the engineer's answer.
 

Guilty_AI

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Was it? You mean that fake news from China where a video file was being played on a laptop? A midrange PC eh? Some people will believe any shit on the internet
Wasn't that de-debunked though? I remember the "debunking" was just Tim Sweeney misunderstanding what people were saying. He thought it was about a video playing on the background or something when it was actually about what the engineer being interviewed clearly said.
 
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assurdum

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It has everything to do with the tech the UE5 has shown. They say it themselves don't they? That their achievement with this tech and the data streaming stuff is to allow games to use movie quality assets.
UE5 is about advanced graphic tech. Achieves movie quality assets doesn't means you are obligated to make a cinematic game. Lol.
 
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Thirty7ven

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I think it’s pretty amazing how the dudes from China were saying it ran perfectly fine on a midrange PC yet all they had to show was a video.

Why not just boot the demo in that midrange pc?

Probably because what they meant was that the tech would run fine on a midrange pc, and a bunch of shit was lost in translation. Because that’s what happened back then, a bunch of fanboys spreading bs translations.

But we gotta let kids believe in Santa.
 
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Guilty_AI

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UE5 is about advanced graphic tech. Achieves movie quality assets doesn't means you are obligated to make a cinematic game. Lol.
And whats the purpose of this if not make games even more cinematic? BotW definitely didn't need movie quality assets to be what it is.
 
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dxdt

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We don't have numbers about RTX I/O to see if they match the ones on the PS5 or they are similar to the ones on the XSX.

Having said that, my point was that if most of the devices that will run UE5 have less I/O bandwidth than the PS5, Epic will develop the UE5 with those limitations in mind. That means that what we will get is different than what it could be if the minimum supported I/O bandwidth was the one in the PS5. That's what I meant about compromising what UE could be if it were only targeting PS5
I am curious what were the numbers on the PS5 UE5 demo? How much bandwidth was used? What was the latency required?
 

Kenpachii

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So, product out on the market for $399 now (well it came out almost two months ago) vs tech not out yet? We might as well discuss XSX2 or PS6 specs?

U do realize its just a software update right? the hardware is already out for years.

On the I/O front? Yes. Can you point me to any PC architecture that achieves an I/O bandwidth similar to what the PS5 does? You can fake the speed with RAM but then you are limited by it's size

U already answered your own question. memory utterly dumpsters I/O on the PS5, they have nothing that competes with it. UE5 demo was nothing but rooms with hidden loadings in between to dump and load data. PC could easily just stockpile that data on memory that is drip feeded from the SSD into memory that is reserved to be addressed next.

RTX I/o is exactly what kraken does by the way, it releaves the CPU from compression but also the GPU on the PS5. WIth PC it will move from cpu to the GPU. however the GPU's are not fixed like on consoles which is not a negative as it opens up solutions to go further with it if needed as its all software at the end of the day. I could see a nvenc like chip arriving on the 4000 series cards tho to push the performance hit away completely or reduce it if its actually needed, i assume its not going to be much of a hit performance wise.

The api optimisations needed to get things to run smoothly is just nothing more then software at the end of the day, the hardware is already there.
 
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Lethal01

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And whats the purpose of this if not make games even more cinematic? BotW definitely didn't need movie quality assets to be what it is.

Even stylized gaphics need power to execute on the artists vision, there is concept of art of BoTW that is clearly above what we got because the switch doesn't have the power to handle the amount of geometry and foliage that was imagined. taking away the aspect of improving visual you could also use the improved geometry rendering to keep the current level of detail but give more complex level design
 
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Shmunter

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Sure, it is using compute shaders to do the decompression work. It is not dedicated HW :p.
Also remains to be seen if the compressed asset first needs to be loaded into the vram and then decompressed again into vram, resulting in a good degree of latency. I can’t see the GPU working on data that is not loaded in its own ram. Remains to be seen.
 

Lister

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Also remains to be seen if the compressed asset first needs to be loaded into the vram and then decompressed again into vram, resulting in a good degree of latency. I can’t see the GPU working on data that is not loaded in its own ram. Remains to be seen.

Uhm, doing it the other way would be introducing latency. you don't want to have to pass uncompressed data through the bus. You want to send the compressed data directly to VRAM and then uncompressed whatever you need to uncompressed there. This saves a tremendous amount of bandwidth, allowing for slower SSD's to still provide a good throughput.
 
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Shmunter

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Uhm, doing it the other way would be introducing latency. you don't want to have to pass uncompressed data through the bus. You want to send the compressed data directly to VRAM and then uncompressed whatever you need to uncompressed there.
Versus the consoles? Consoles deliver uncompressed assets ready to render directly into ram on demand from the i/o block, no need to load up compressed data, then proceed to work on it to decompress, copying memory around, eating up cycles and time.

Single operation versus multiple.
 
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Lister

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Versus the consoles? Consoles deliver uncompressed assets ready to render directly into ram on demand from the i/o block, no need to load up compressed data, then proceed to work on it to decompress, copying memory around, eating up cycles and time.

Single operation versus multiple.

It depends on the max throughput of the I/O on the PS5 I suppose.

RTX I/O can saturate the PCIE gen 4 at an effective 14 GB/s because of compression.
 

longdi

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Comparing to PC, anyone knows if the big numbers in ps5 io hardware, are 'overkill' for the rest of its hardware?

Ps5 cpu/zen 2 is between skylake and broadwell ipc, and ps5 cpu is clocked slower.
Ps5 gpu is lower-mid 6700 series with smaller bandwidth

Its not like sony had not experienced such 'overkill' in ps4 pro. Iirc it had higher pixel fillrates than One X even!

The choice of nand flash to make up 825gb and its accompanying io numbers were a bare minimum selection for storage needs?
The resulting big io numbers may not be fully utilised? 🤷‍♀️
 

DonJuanSchlong

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Lol upset. And you think troll them everytime about the pc supremacy power is a better attitude? Wow. Surely it's not me who takes as personal such discussion. Anyway you claimed there isn't any evidence about the I/O usage on ps5 for the UE5 when Tim Sweeney has monopolized such matter for months; you are quite unfair even in your claim.
Is the ps5 i/o maxed or or not? You seem to be angry and trying to change the argument now. You don't know the SSD usage, and can't figure out how to answer the question. Which means you don't know and can't say it's whether it's faster than what PC has available.
 
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onesvenus

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I am curious what were the numbers on the PS5 UE5 demo? How much bandwidth was used? What was the latency required?
The streaming pool in that demo was 768MB

Although I don't think we could count how much bandwidth was used from that. Maybe it was 768MB per frame, every two frames or every second.

In the DF DeS interview with BluePoint
They say (at around the 17 minutes mark) that they are continuously streaming 3/4 GB worth of compressed data every second.

U already answered your own question. memory utterly dumpsters I/O on the PS5, they have nothing that competes with it. UE5 demo was nothing but rooms with hidden loadings in between to dump and load data. PC could easily just stockpile that data on memory that is drip feeded from the SSD into memory that is reserved to be addressed next.
At 3/4 GB of compressed data per second as in Demon's Souls, how fast do you think your RAM pool would get filled? You could avoid the problem of transferring data from the SSD to RAM if you had a big enough pool but I can't see that as a mandatory requirement for UE5
 
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Panajev2001a

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It depends on the max throughput of the I/O on the PS5 I suppose.

RTX I/O can saturate the PCIE gen 4 at an effective 14 GB/s because of compression.
Max throughput for PS5 is not SSD to I/O chip, but I/O chip to RAM and it is ~22 GB/s (peak decompression rate, 8-9 GB/s average, numbers taken without Oodle Texture optimised textures before Kraken compression... which can bring the numbers upward significantly).
 

Panajev2001a

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Comparing to PC, anyone knows if the big numbers in ps5 io hardware, are 'overkill' for the rest of its hardware?

Ps5 cpu/zen 2 is between skylake and broadwell ipc, and ps5 cpu is clocked slower.
Ps5 gpu is lower-mid 6700 series with smaller bandwidth

Its not like sony had not experienced such 'overkill' in ps4 pro. Iirc it had higher pixel fillrates than One X even!

The choice of nand flash to make up 825gb and its accompanying io numbers were a bare minimum selection for storage needs?
The resulting big io numbers may not be fully utilised? 🤷‍♀️
This is quite an interesting mix of unrelated and not to the point information (CPU IPC) with a bit of FUD about I/O to the end. What has PS4 Pro got to do with it? (BTW, Cerny talked about the ROP over provisioning in interviews well before it came out, not discovering a secret here)

SSD, even taking the maximum Decode block bandwidth of 22 GB/s, is still well below RAM bandwidth and latency. Both MS and Sony would like to use it as virtual memory and to that extent it would help if it could be closer to RAM speed (the closer the better). So, no... not overkill.
 
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Bernd Lauert

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The streaming pool in that demo was 768MB

Although I don't think we could count how much bandwidth was used from that. Maybe it was 768MB per frame, every two frames or every second.

In the DF DeS interview with BluePoint
They say (at around the 17 minutes mark) that they are continuously streaming 3/4 GB worth of compressed data every second.


At 3/4 GB of compressed data per second as in Demon's Souls, how fast do you think your RAM pool would get filled? You could avoid the problem of transferring data from the SSD to RAM if you had a big enough pool but I can't see that as a mandatory requirement for UE5

No, DeS is not streaming 4 GB of data every second. It's complete nonsense.
 
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