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Washington Post: Sony and Nintendo are not in-step with how the rest of the software industry works

KingT731

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It does mean a lot because consoles alone don't bring much (if any) profit, it's the games where it's at. And we already see this with Returnal's 500k copies and Sony's survey asking what to change/improve, or better yet - what John Garvin himself said regarding Days Gone 2 - "don’t complain if a game doesn’t get a sequel if it wasn’t supported at launch". Because having even 100M consoles out in the wild doesn't mean much if those people don't spend their money on games but are waiting for sales or worse, are getting them from 2nd hand instead, or wait for PC release just to pirate it.
What do Returnal's sales have to do with your point without knowing how profitable the game was? That would be just talking out of your ass.
 

ZywyPL

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What do Returnal's sales have to do with your point without knowing how profitable the game was? That would be just talking out of your ass.

Sony's concerns clearly indicate they weren't fully satisfied, or that they are planning a bigger game/budget for Housemarque that simply won't cut it with not even 1M sales.
 

mckmas8808

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So what if they mention it or not? Doesn't change my view, which is that they are technically correct that Sony / Nintendo are approaching things differently, but only because they have never needed to change course.

Plus do they add in the context that console gaming has been like this or WORST for 30 years prior? That seems to be the big missing chunk in this conversation.
 
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NickFire

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Plus do they add in the context that console gaming has been like this or WORST for 30 years prior? That seems to be the big missing chunk in this conversation.
To be fair, I think they allude to your point by noting the issue may seem foreign to console only players, but that's as close as they get.
 
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Notabueno

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The bolded is a pure lie. The numbers say that this is a lie. Unless you live in a really poor area of the world.



The new consoles came out RIGHT when they needed to. It was perfect timing to be honest. I can't speak for the Xbox Series X, because I don't have one but the PS5 had perfect timing.

They work in the entertainment or tech industry for most. Only 2 of them only have a PS5. We all have either a PS4, Switch or XBO. That would be surprising but the truth is nobody gives a shit about the worst Playstation console ever released, but that might be because we're 25+ and most have a PC.
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
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They work in the entertainment or tech industry for most. Only 2 of them only have a PS5. We all have either a PS4, Switch or XBO. That would be surprising but the truth is nobody gives a shit about the worst Playstation console ever released, but that might be because we're 25+ and most have a PC.

I'm just not sure how this sentence could ever be typed by anyone in the world, unless you're trolling.
 
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PaintTinJr

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DLSS and RT is a new thing lately for PC gaming. When a dev does an update giving PC gamers new graphics settings, do they charge PC gamers an extra $10 for the download?

Even ignoring DLSS/RT, does a PC dev charge different prices for different settings, since it takes more work for ultra settings?
The PC is an interesting case - since the beginning of the previous gen, because IIRC PC didn't get certain games with the next-gen engine for games like Fifa - so as I said in my previous post, that might come down to licensing of the middleware engine causing the dev/pub costs to go up, and they only want to deliver that new solution where they can monetise and recoup those increased costs.

The haptics in the PS5, and 3D audio, and IO complex will all be available to old UE4 developers through the PS5 sdk, but if UE5EA already has the PS5 sdk mapped into the engine, and remaps UE4 game solutions into those three features, with out much more than developer tweaking sliders, and they can monetise it, to cover those increased license costs, wouldn't they be creating unnecessary work to map the sdk for those features themselves - for an old redundant UE4 solution - that they then give away for free - see HZ zero dawn?

Most games use middleware - so have additional costs when re-releasing in a next-gen with a new next-gen engine, irrespective of how minor that update looks. If they really do have new additional costs - because they are using new sw tech than PC/smartdelivery - should they be expected to absorb those costs indefinitely?
 

Swoopsail

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In an age where excess homogenization occurs, I'm honestly not threatened by companies with different approaches. And I'm not saying this is a Nintendo supporter. I'm mostly a PC player. Endless gamer media tried to tell me my favored mode of playing video games was 'old and outdated' for fucking years. Here I am, playing pc still. Support what you love and do it with your wallet. If it's fated to fail, there is little you can do. But remember, a lot of people enjoy playing games less than they do stirring drama, bs, and lies.
 

BootsLoader

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Hahaha journalism at its finest. Are they dumb or something.

If you buy a game on PS4 you can play it for free on PS5 (just insert the disc or download the game if it is digital)
if you want the upgraded version then you pay 10$.
On iPhone 7 when I buy Stardew Valley and then play it on iPhone 12, I play the same old shit version of the game. Of course I will not pay more.

Gaming journalists these days are so fkin snowflakes. You don’t wanna pay extra 10$, get the fuk out of here.
 

MrFunSocks

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It does mean a lot because consoles alone don't bring much (if any) profit, it's the games where it's at. And we already see this with Returnal's 500k copies and Sony's survey asking what to change/improve, or better yet - what John Garvin himself said regarding Days Gone 2 - "don’t complain if a game doesn’t get a sequel if it wasn’t supported at launch". Because having even 100M consoles out in the wild doesn't mean much if those people don't spend their money on games but are waiting for sales or worse, are getting them from 2nd hand instead, or wait for PC release just to pirate it.
They're both making record profit from their software and services too.
 

MScarpa

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On PC it's the same copy of the game, requiring nothing from the developers.

This is a PS4 SKU of a game, completely different coding method and product than the PS5 version. Your argument doesn't make sense.
This is so wrong on so many levels. I don't even know where to begin.
 

Swoopsail

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Who is telling you this?
Maybe you don't remember? When microsoft created the xbox for the first time, and gaming media (that used to be okay) like gamespot and IGN only started predominately covering consoles and would only talk about pc-related things if it was a port. RTS style pc games diminished greatly. This all started in 2000 and roughly went to about 2010. It completely killed my desire to support mainstream, so I went on to ignore them and continue to enjoy pc, despite so many stating 'pc is dying.' If my memory is wrong, it can't be helped. I just vividly remember that during the time microsoft ultimately made pc gaming secondary. Things are obviously very different now.
 
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Unknown?

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But what about crazy rich companies?lol Sony? Microsoft? Nintendo?
I try to support smaller local companies whenever I can. Sony and Nintendo, while big, are nowhere near the likes of Microsoft or Amazon. Unfortunately there are no alternatives to consoles. For Amazon I can shop elsewhere. PC I can get Linux.
 

MScarpa

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I try to support smaller local companies whenever I can. Sony and Nintendo, while big, are nowhere near the likes of Microsoft or Amazon. Unfortunately there are no alternatives to consoles. For Amazon I can shop elsewhere. PC I can get Linux.
Sony and Nintendo are ok but Microsoft, they are just to big and mean? lmao Does Sony send you a greeting card every year for Christmas? haha A fool and his money......
 

Unknown?

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Sony and Nintendo are ok but Microsoft, they are just to big and mean? lmao Does Sony send you a greeting card every year for Christmas? haha A fool and his money......
Lol either you've invested too heavily in the console war or I've poorly worded my stance. Don't believe I said that but not certainly what I meant.
 
Oct 26, 2018
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I try to support smaller local companies whenever I can. Sony and Nintendo, while big, are nowhere near the likes of Microsoft or Amazon. Unfortunately there are no alternatives to consoles. For Amazon I can shop elsewhere. PC I can get Linux.
So you support smaller local Japanese companies (at the parent level), even though these smaller companies have bigger more profitable gaming divisions (that charge upgrade fees or hardly ever discount their first part games) than a bigger overall US company like MS.

Got it.
 
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DrAspirino

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It's not the same case, a game developed on PC doesn't need to be recompiled or updated if you get a new graphics card/cpu, it's the windows platform. PS4 and PS5 are different platforms, of course that if people have to go and retool and create a native PS5 version of the product, that that work has to be paid for.
PS4 Architecture = x86. PS5 Architecture = x86
PS4 OS = FreeBSD. PS5 OS = FreeBSD
PS4 engines = unreal, unity, etc. PS5 engines = unreal, unity, etc.
PS4 graphics = AMD. PS5 graphics = AMD.

THEY ARE THE SAME FUCKING PLATFORM. PS5 is just a more powerful PS4. Same with Xbone and XSX. The moment both companies went the x86 route they became scalable AF. Heck, you don't even need to recompile, reinstall or even update the Windows platform. Just the drivers, FFS!!

I've said it countless times and I'll keep saying it over and over again: THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THE PRICE INCREASE, NOR FOR CHARGING FOR THE UPGRADE TO THE NEXT-GEN PLATFORM, SINCE THAT VERY PLATFORM IS SCALABLE AF.

Want proof? Here's a video of GTA V running at 4K with a FREE mod, squeezing out every single CPU and GPU cycle in modern CPU and GPU. Oh, and by the way, it's a game released IN 2013!
 
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Kerotan

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I mean like I paid $30 for the ghost of tsutshima expansion and upgrade and I'm blown away. I already played it after they did the free ps5 60fps patch but now it's even better.

Plus I think the game is just better anyway on a new game plus. None of my circle are complaining. All having a blast.
 
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Oct 26, 2018
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PS4 Architecture = x86. PS5 Architecture = x86
PS4 OS = FreeBSD. PS5 OS = FreeBSD
PS4 engines = unreal, unity, etc. PS5 engines = unreal, unity, etc.
PS4 graphics = AMD. PS5 graphics = AMD.

THEY ARE THE SAME FUCKING PLATFORM. PS5 is just a more powerful PS4. Same with Xbone and XSX. The moment both companies went the x86 route they became scalable AF. Heck, you don't even need to recompile, reinstall or even update the Windows platform. Just the drivers, FFS!!

I've said it countless times and I'll keep saying it over and over again: THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THE PRICE INCREASE, NOR FOR CHARGING FOR THE UPGRADE TO THE NEXT-GEN PLATFORM, SINCE THAT VERY PLATFORM IS SCALABLE AF.

Want proof? Here's a video of GTA V running at 4K with a FREE mod, squeezing out every single CPU and GPU cycle in modern CPU and GPU. Oh, and by the way, it's a game released IN 2013!
Exactly.

It's like PC gaming where one price gets you whatever scalable options you do pending how good your PC is. It's not like a game maker charges PC gamers different prices for low or high settings. Even all these recent RTX and DLSS upgrades are free.

But for console gaming, only recently have these systems been very x86 architecture with BC being standard. But just to show how easy and free it is, nobody charged PS4 Pro and One X gamers $10 to play at boosted graphics and frame rates. The systems were better, they boosted base PS4/One games and everyone loved it.

But for PS5 (and some third party devs), some are trying to strongarm a new $70 tier of pricing hoping it sticks even though the transition from last gen to now is easier than ever. And so far, not everyone is doing it so it sticks out like a sore thumb that some are charging for boosts and some arent.

But the message to influence console gamers to accept $70 will be corporate PR like "generations" and "it needs more work to do so it costs more".

Yet even many third party studios give free updates, Pro/One X had zero upgrade fees, and PC gaming covers a million configs from low to ultra. So if these scenarios can do it for free, why cant everyone?

And even worse, the companies trying to perk up with upgrade fees are the big guys who already make record profits with sky high stock prices. You'd think if costs are getting out of hand needing a price bump, it'd be smaller broke studios who need every dime for survival. But its actually the opposite who are pushing it.
 
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PaintTinJr

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PS4 Architecture = x86. PS5 Architecture = x86
PS4 OS = FreeBSD. PS5 OS = FreeBSD
PS4 engines = unreal, unity, etc. PS5 engines = unreal, unity, etc.
PS4 graphics = AMD. PS5 graphics = AMD.

THEY ARE THE SAME FUCKING PLATFORM. PS5 is just a more powerful PS4. Same with Xbone and XSX. The moment both companies went the x86 route they became scalable AF. Heck, you don't even need to recompile, reinstall or even update the Windows platform. Just the drivers, FFS!!

I've said it countless times and I'll keep saying it over and over again: THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THE PRICE INCREASE, NOR FOR CHARGING FOR THE UPGRADE TO THE NEXT-GEN PLATFORM, SINCE THAT VERY PLATFORM IS SCALABLE AF.

Want proof? Here's a video of GTA V running at 4K with a FREE mod, squeezing out every single CPU and GPU cycle in modern CPU and GPU. Oh, and by the way, it's a game released IN 2013!
/regardless of being charged for an update

That isn't how console development works. Games being "compatible" on the next-console actually means something in the console space for a QA experience on the user's hardware - unlike on PC where it is scalable, and so are any bugs that arise from open-ended specs that change over decades. How an old game works on pc config x or y is complete potluck, and if going back to old, old games from lucas art they may not work at all if using your original cd-rom copies that pre-date the development of dosbox or wrappers for glide3d(3dfx's graphics api).

In the Road to PS5 Cerny was able to give actual numbers of games that had been throughly "tested" and confirmed to work on the launch PS5 firnware - with more to follow from more testing and patching.

Despite the jaguar and zen2 chips of the ps4 and ps5 being x86_64, in the context of games passing console QA submission to become native ps5 apps, they aren't the same animal. Same with the ps4 custom gcn based amd gpu, the ps5 custom rdna2 gpu and low-level api are significantly different.

Like nintendo, PlayStation has offered best BC when they just incorporate a minified version od the previous hardware, because it is guaranteed to work identically with zero need for sw changes .

This time PlayStation has choosen a halfway house, with some hw BC modes and the ability to transform previous games into native ps5 apps via significant testing and sw alterations.
 
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tr1p1ex

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If they're making people who already bought the game buy it again instead of letting them play the copy they already bought then they are looking to cash in again. Whether it's "fully" or not is just semantics, really. The bottom line is they're making people rebuy something they already bought if they want to play it on the new console.
They are not making anyone buy it again.

And it's standard practice to charge full price for a 3rd party port to another platform. The Switch is a different architecture than the Wii U.

Whether they "fully" (cashed in) or not is not semantics at all. Opposite. IT's the major reason you see Wii U ports on the Switch.
 
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Azurro

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PS4 Architecture = x86. PS5 Architecture = x86
PS4 OS = FreeBSD. PS5 OS = FreeBSD
PS4 engines = unreal, unity, etc. PS5 engines = unreal, unity, etc.
PS4 graphics = AMD. PS5 graphics = AMD.

THEY ARE THE SAME FUCKING PLATFORM. PS5 is just a more powerful PS4. Same with Xbone and XSX. The moment both companies went the x86 route they became scalable AF. Heck, you don't even need to recompile, reinstall or even update the Windows platform. Just the drivers, FFS!!

I suppose you don't know that the PlayStation graphics API actually exposes some low level functions of the GPU, which makes that code bound to that specific GPU architecture.

That's the entire reason why there's an emulation layer of PS4 HW instructions on the PS5. You can't just git pull the PS4 code of a game and run it as a native PS5 application. Things are quite a bit more complex than you think.
 

DrAspirino

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/regardless of being charged for an update

That isn't how console development works. Games being "compatible" on the next-console actually means something in the console space for a QA experience on the user's hardware - unlike on PC where it is scalable, and so are any bugs that arise from open-ended specs that change over decades. How an old game works on pc config x or y is complete potluck, and if going back to old, old games from lucas art they may not work at all if using your original cd-rom copies that pre-date the development of dosbox or wrappers for glide3d(3dfx's graphics api).

In the Road to PS5 Cerny was able to give actual numbers of games that had been throughly "tested" and confirmed to work on the launch PS5 firnware - with more to follow from more testing and patching.

Despite the jaguar and zen2 chips of the ps4 and ps5 being x86_64, in the context of games passing console QA submission to become native ps5 apps, they aren't the same animal. Same with the ps4 custom gcn based amd gpu, the ps5 custom rdna2 gpu and low-level api are significantly different.
Oh....please... using the same argument, how does a modern console differ from a regular x86 PC? architecture wise, they're exactly the same.

Low-level APIs on the GPU? those are handled by the system drivers, not the games. In fact, PS4 and PS5 operating systems are both based on FreeBSD 9.0, which by design doesn't allow any app other than the kernel to have access to bare metal. Everything up from the kernel are calls to the kernel, not direct calls to hardware, so every single game can be optimised for PS5 without even touching the game's original source code.

For example: without touching absolutely anything in game's original source code, you can tell the kernel (via drivers config or profiles) that for "game x", anti-alias should be at x16 instead of x8, that anisotropic filtering must be at x32 instead of the original, that resolution should be 4K instead of 1080p, etc...

So... having that out of the way, what makes it "oh so special" about consoles that use the same PC parts, components and even operating systems?

Again, from a technical point of view, there is no difference whatsoever. Trying to glorify an Xbox plastic box or a PlayStation plastic box thinking that they're "special", and as such, they're "vastly different" than their predecessors, it's just silly and falls right within corporate BS that Sony and Microsoft are pushing.
I suppose you don't know that the PlayStation graphics API actually exposes some low level functions of the GPU, which makes that code bound to that specific GPU architecture.

That's the entire reason why there's an emulation layer of PS4 HW instructions on the PS5. You can't just git pull the PS4 code of a game and run it as a native PS5 application. Things are quite a bit more complex than you think.
PS4 "emulation layer"...give me a break, will ya? There's no emulation whatsoever, since the binaries are exactly the same, the OS is exactly the same and every "low level functions of the GPU" are handled by the drivers at kernel level, NOT at userland level (games), so there are simply driver and kernel calls that the corresponding driver routes to bare metal.

Generations ceased to exist the moment both Sony and Microsoft entered the x86 world. If PS5 or Xbox Series would've had a radically different architecture (say... RISC 5 CPUs or ARM CPUs with nVidia GPUs), then the "next-gen upgrade fee" would be absolutely justified. Otherwise it isn't.
 

PaintTinJr

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Oh....please... using the same argument, how does a modern console differ from a regular x86 PC? architecture wise, they're exactly the same.

Low-level APIs on the GPU? those are handled by the system drivers, not the games. In fact, PS4 and PS5 operating systems are both based on FreeBSD 9.0, which by design doesn't allow any app other than the kernel to have access to bare metal. Everything up from the kernel are calls to the kernel, not direct calls to hardware, so every single game can be optimised for PS5 without even touching the game's original source code.

For example: without touching absolutely anything in game's original source code, you can tell the kernel (via drivers config or profiles) that for "game x", anti-alias should be at x16 instead of x8, that anisotropic filtering must be at x32 instead of the original, that resolution should be 4K instead of 1080p, etc...

So... having that out of the way, what makes it "oh so special" about consoles that use the same PC parts, components and even operating systems?

Again, from a technical point of view, there is no difference whatsoever. Trying to glorify an Xbox plastic box or a PlayStation plastic box thinking that they're "special", and as such, they're "vastly different" than their predecessors, it's just silly and falls right within corporate BS that Sony and Microsoft are pushing.
All those items you mentioned like anisotropic filtering are after thought eye candy to game graphics development for a console.

Every year since forever, we get technical info come out of GDC or siggraph (even in some technical dev DF interviews) that peek behind the NDA curtain of console sdks, and repeatedly we see that even things like how the Liverpool APU had handcrafted code to allow cores to snoop other cores caches efficiently is all bound to these(PlayStations) being highly customised hardware, with software to match. The info is out there, if you care to find it.

But even if you want to downplay that, the main point I made was about QA. Console BC is QA'd to the same level as released games - on console - it isn't the scalable suck it an see situation with the PC; the whole experience is curated from dev to user playing.
 

Umbasaborne

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I mean, there not wrong, but the fact that they sell so well means they dont have to change so they will remain complacent